Starting a routine at 16 weeks

[SpiritedLIttleOne]

Hello, I'm a newbie to the forum and only recently discovered The Baby Whisperer. I wish someone had told me about it sooner!

I have a spirited little one with lungs of steel, who has been extremely alert (so say the professionals) since a couple of days old and isn't enjoying all the changes I'm making in her life!

I started logging her sleep and feeds about a month ago and with her difficulty in transitioning between sleep cycles, no bed time or nap time routine... In fact no routine or consistency at all, it looked like a mess. I stopped feeding on demand, transitioned her to her own crib for nap times and more recently for night time also (she used to sleep on me - I know, I know, accidental parenting and she used me as a prop every time she woke in the night - which was a lot). About 2 weeks ago I started implementing a proper bed time routine and a week ago a nap routine too. I spaced out feeds to see what she could do and watched for sleep cues. Oh, and we started using shh-pat too! No wonder she doesn't know what's going on!! She's  EBF (used to be a snacker!) had a tongue tie and latch problems up until she was 8 weeks or so, but is around 14lbs now, so no issues there.

So right now I have a 16 week old that I started on a 4 hour easy routine a few days ago. Im wondering if I've gone in a little heavy handed? She's quite resistant to nap times and bed time, despite the calm activity before hand (e.g. walking around the house with me, on her floor mat) and routine.

Bed time routine is story, bath, massage, feed and bed - should I put feed before bed to avoid accidental parenting?

Nap time routine is calm activity, go upstairs change nappy and put pjs on whilst lullaby is playing, swaddle, say goodbye to sun and put the blind down and go into main bedroom (which has blackout blinds up). When we enter the room she starts fussing and crying so we have to start with shh-pat on shoulder before I can even try to put her in the crib and say the sleepy words. Should I put her down anyway and try in the crib first? Maybe start the routine earlier so she's asleep by the right time, but then don't I run the risk of her being UT?

She has difficulty transitioning between sleep cycles and so I need to resettle her during the day, a number of times each nap. Sometimes I need to do the same when she goes to bed.

She is also waking quite a lot during the night, at the same or similar times. Until this point I have been feeding her and so reinforcing it (stupid me!). Due to her eating issues and being a snacker I wanted to check if it was hunger, so I've been slowly decreasing the amount she is eating each time (but pushing for full feeds during the day). She doesn't seem to wake anymore frequently (although I've only been doing it a couple of nights). What do you suggest I do? Carry on reducing until she's having barely anything and then eventually just resettling her? I've tried just resettling without feeding and she wasn't having any of it, 45mins of wailing ensued so had to feed her anyhow! Maybe keep the DF and one more feed? Atm she's waking at least 4/5 times if not more - not always wanting food.

I'm worried that the night wakings and short naps will mean her total sleep time is low... Which is something I've been guilty of for far too long. To be honest I was extremely naïve when she was teeny and didn't help her sleep during the day, so I had a chronically tired baby (who slept well at night because she was on me) who as a result was cranky, fussy and even more sensitive.

I'm hoping the right routine will help with most of this?

Please help! Thank you!

MODIFICATION: We seem to be on track so far today!! 

[creations]

Hello and welcome to BW forums

Wow it sounds like you're on a mission and have implemented lots of changes recently.  Of course it is going to be really quite different for both you and LO and it is only to be expected to take a little while to adapt to the changes and get into the idea of this new routine. Your LO is likely to fuss about changes, especially if she's been used to co-sleeping and then you move her to her own room and bed - but it sounds like you are making great progress!

I can come back later if you have more questions or if I don't cover everything here but for now, a few things:
- if you observed her for a few days prior to starting the EASY routine it would be worth you looking over your records and just see if there are any patterns for example if she was ever doing any longer naps and if so what the A times were prior to these naps.  Did she ever do a nap longer than 40/45 mins without needing to be resettled for example, it's useful to know.
- did you set up a 4hr routine based on your observations of her previous habits or did you take the routine straight from the book?  Most LOs will need a bit of a tweak to the routine so that it suits their development and personality.
- it sounds like she has been napping in her own room for about a month now, I would expect her to be used to the room but if you have any idea that she is still uncomfortable in there I suggest spending some play time in there when you are not expecting her to sleep. Putting the lights on and walking around the room chatting about what is there and what you see, how lovely the room is and so on may help.  Playing peek-a-boo in there can also get her used to seeing you and not seeing you and learning that you always return (face comes back from behind hands, mummy comes back from out side room).

When we enter the room she starts fussing and crying so we have to start with shh-pat on shoulder before I can even try to put her in the crib and say the sleepy words. Should I put her down anyway and try in the crib first? Maybe start the routine earlier so she's asleep by the right time, but then don't I run the risk of her being UT?

Without a bit more background it is hard to tell if she is OT, UT or just unhappy about being in her new(ish) room and going for nap.  Her times might need a tweak to help with this part.
For now I would shush/pat in arms until she is calmer and you feel ready to be put down, then continue in the cot and stay with her, you can shush/pat all the way to deep sleep if needed and gradually wean this as the days go on.  her confidence to sleep alone is key here so support as much as needed and it will come.

Maybe keep the DF and one more feed?

Certainly keep the DF and at least one more feed at night. She might even need another.  if it has been 3hrs since the previous E then I wouldn't bother trying to resettle but offer food. If it is less than 3hrs I would resettle.  Don't be in too much of a hurry to drop the night feeds yet, she is still very little.
I'm not sure if you've read around the forums or read the BW books - the advice on the forums is different to the books in that more current research is used for breast feeding advice.  As Tracy has passed away it is not possible for the books to be updated.  It is really quite normal for a BF LO to need at least 2 night feeds (DF and 1 or 2 more).

It is possible that if she has always been a very alert and bright LO that she could be lower sleep needs or dislike a long wind down. My DS was also very alert and he hated his Activity time being taken up with along wind down, it made him very cross. he liked to go up to his bed no more than 3 mins before his sleep time, quick nappy change, one cuddle and song, into bed, I left he went to sleep in an instant.  yes he was already sleep trained so the situation was a bit different but even so at 4 months we can all learn more about our babies and try different things to see what works best for them.  There isn't anything "to do" about this right now other than keep it in mind as a possibility.  She could go to sleep at the right time by being taken up later rather than earlier.

The NWs I would think will become less frequent when she has greater confidence to sleep alone and this is a combination of routine and learning that you always return when she neds you - she will need you less as a result.

If you'd like to post today's EAS times I can have a look for you?  Sounds like today is a good day

Hope this helps for now.

[SpiritedLIttleOne]

Hi, thanks for getting back to me.

I've managed to mess up the quotes, so please bare with me!

Hello and welcome to BW forums

- if you observed her for a few days prior to starting the EASY routine it would be worth you looking over your records and just see if there are any patterns for example if she was ever doing any longer naps and if so what the A times were prior to these naps.  Did she ever do a nap longer than 40/45 mins without needing to be resettled for example, it's useful to know.

I've had a look over the past month and there's been one occasion she's slept longer than 40/45 which followed a 35min sleep, 20min feed, 15min burp and resettle - with an hour and a half nap!

- did you set up a 4hr routine based on your observations of her previous habits or did you take the routine straight from the book?  Most LOs will need a bit of a tweak to the routine so that it suits their development and personality.

I looked at the 3-4 hour easy transition in 5min increments as I wasn't sure about the 2hr A time. I'm more confident of the 4 hourly feeds. She doesn't seem to wake during the sleeps to be fed, just resettled during transitions. But in the end pulled it straight out the book and thought I'd give it a go to see as there had been spells where I'd not see her sleepy cues for that length of time, if not slightly longer. Admittedly I haven't tweaked it at all. Now I feel bad!

- it sounds like she has been napping in her own room for about a month now, I would expect her to be used to the room but if you have any idea that she is still uncomfortable in there I suggest spending some play time in there when you are not expecting her to sleep. Putting the lights on and walking around the room chatting about what is there and what you see, how lovely the room is and so on may help.  Playing peek-a-boo in there can also get her used to seeing you and not seeing you and learning that you always return (face comes back from behind hands, mummy comes back from out side room)

She's been napping in a crib in our bedroom. We change and swaddle her and say goodbye to the sun in her room, as we have more involved black out blinds in our room. She likes her room, plays in her cotbed almost every day and does some tummy time in there etc. She likes our room when we're in there at other times, relaxing listening to music with mummy etc. It just seems to be when she's swaddled and it's dark - an early protest.

Certainly keep the DF and at least one more feed at night. She might even need another.  if it has been 3hrs since the previous E then I wouldn't bother trying to resettle but offer food. If it is less than 3hrs I would resettle.  Don't be in too much of a hurry to drop the night feeds yet, she is still very little

I'm not sure if you've read around the forums or read the BW books - the advice on the forums is different to the books in that more current research is used for breast feeding advice.  As Tracy has passed away it is not possible for the books to be updated.  It is really quite normal for a BF LO to need at least 2 night feeds (DF and 1 or 2 more).

It makes sense. That's what she's doing, but a few extra wakings nearer 7am, but she's relatively easy to settle back to sleep. Touch Wood. I guess I'm in too much of a hurry to STTN! She does fall asleep at the end of her feed whilst still in my arms - is that still considered to be a prop?

[quote author=creations link=topic=286655.msg3163409#msg3163409 date=1495548333
It is possible that if she has always been a very alert and bright LO that she could be lower sleep needs or dislike a long wind down... She could go to sleep at the right time by being taken up later rather than earlier

That is entirely possible, in my ignorance she was sleeping never more than 11/12 hours in a 24 hour period when she was tiny. Shall we look at the routine a tweak times etc first, then make changes to nap routines later down the line?

Here are our timings for yesterday and today
UP 7:15 (we overslept!)
E 7:20
A 2hr10
S 9:25-10:50 (took 30 mins to settle originally & Resettled twice in crib to extend)
E 11:15
A 2hr 20
S 1:10-2:50 (took 25 mins to settle originally & Resettled 3 times in crib to extend)
E 3:00
A 1hr55
S 4:45-5:20 (took 20 mins to settle)
E 6:30
A 2hr10
TU & Bed 7:30 (took a while to settle!)

UP 7:00
E 7:05
A 2hr 10
S 9:10-10:55
E 11:00
A 2hr 15
S 1:10-2:50 (lots of crying when originally settled - took 20 mins to settle originally & Resettled three times in crib to extend)
E 3:00
A 3hr 10 (tried to settle for CN from 4:50!!!)
S 6:00-6:30

We're going to feed at 6:45, then have a bath and massage. Then top up and bedtime for as close to 7:15 as possible (slightly early as she seems tired)

Thank you for looking over this for me.

[creations]

Admittedly I haven't tweaked it at all. Now I feel bad!

Do not feel bad - we don't allow that here
Seriously, we are all parents and we all do what we can with the information we have. Caring for babies is hard enough without you adding to the feelings of guilt!

I don't have a lot of time this evening and I'd like to have a proper look at your EASY to reply properly (it's a little hard to see your answers with those crazy quotes but I'll manage I'll just need to go through it again when I have more time available - don't worry you'll get used to the quotes soon enough) but the first thing I'm thinking now is that the A time is going over the 2hrs which is more suitable for a 5 months old. some of that is because it is taking time to get her settled... I would try a few days on a 1hr 45 min A time, aiming to have her asleep by 1hr 45 and lets just see if that changes anything. Could you also keep a note of how long into the nap it is that she is disturbed and needs resettling please?

See what you think and how that goes for a couple of days and I'll also come back to have another look at this info again.

[SpiritedLIttleOne]

Thank you for your help 

I'll start the 3hr 30min EASY tomorrow. (I pulled this one from the forum, I hope it's okay)

E  7.00 (A 1.45)
S  8.45 (1.45)
E  10.30 (A 1.45)
S  12.15 (1.45)
E  2.00 (A 1.45)
S  3.45 (1.45)
E  5.30 (A 1.45)
T UP & B  7.15
DF  10:45

I'll make a note of when she needs resettling during naps too.

Have a good evening 

[SpiritedLIttleOne]

Just a quick one. For a little confidence - if she sleeps poorly can i get her to sleep more or do I wake her at the end of nap time?
We're already off track after nap 1!

[creations]

OK, the 3hr 30 EASY is fine to start out, if she is okay to eat every 3hr 30min. if she is not properly hungry at 3hr 30 mins you can shift the E to 4hr if needed. The routine runs a bit different as there will be A between S and E like this EASAEAS but that's totally fine.

For a little confidence - if she sleeps poorly can i get her to sleep more or do I wake her at the end of nap time?

Really it is a personal choice. I think you recently read the BW books so you will likely have read that to get LO onto a routine you start out by clock watching and "out" LO on the routine. This gets things going and will make things happen faster. It involves keeping LO in the bedroom and trying to resettle until the end (or almost the end) of nap time even if she is not asleep and then taking her out of the room at the time nap should end even if she is asleep.  However it is really your choice, this can feel like very hard work even though it gets results more quickly. Many people prefer to track the A times and E times to keep A at roughly the right length, to get LO up if they are not easy to resettle and to let them sleep for as long as they want if they do nod off - all regardless of the time and routine.  This likely takes longer to get into a predictable daily routine and to sleep train but it is also often easier going on parents because it takes quite a lot of energy, patience and stamina to fully sleep train and get on a routine all in one go.
Your choice then - we can support you either way.

See how that routine goes for now.

[SpiritedLIttleOne]

Hello,

As LO has been eating every 4 hours recently, we took your advice and started an EASAEAS on Thursday. We've tried to capture useful info for you. I hope it's enough.

Wednesday looked like this:
E 7am
A (1hr 45)
S 8:45 (resettled at 9:16) Went down again at 10:03 and needed resettling at 10:37 (she was chatty rather than crying at start of sleep which made a change)
E 10:50
A
S 12:50 (resettled at 1:28) (took a very long time to settle and did not resettle)
E 2:00
A (
S 3:42 (resettled at 4:10)
E 5:30
TUP & bed 7 (resettled at 7:30) didn't go back to sleep until after the dream feed at 10:45
Woke at 1:50 and 4:00

Yesterday
UP 6:45
E 7:00
A (1hr 40)
S 8:25 - 10:05 (resettled at 8:56) needed shh pat very frequently until 10:05 (remained in crib though  )
E 11
A (1hr 50)
S 11:55 - 1:55 (resettled at 12:27) lots of shh pat until 1:15 (resettled at 1:47)
E 3:10
A (2hr 05)
S 4:00 - 5:35 (resettled at 4:20) asleep from 4:25 (resettled again at 4:55)
E 7:00
A (1hr 50)
S 7:25 - 9:50 (Resettle failure! Wide eyed from 10:15 until I came up for DF)
DF 10:45
S 11:15
(skipped the usual 1/2am feed)
E 4:00
S 4:40


Today so far
Awake 6:10 (babbling and happy in crib) shh pat made her upset. I'd prefer a 7am wake up!
UP 6:45
E 7:00
A (2.07)
S 8:17 (saw first cue at 8:10 but was already getting her ready for nap) shh pat on shoulder for literally 3 mins before she relaxed for sleep. I also reduced wind down time (there wasn't really any!?) and shortened the nap routine - quick nappy change, pjs and swaddle (we changed last week to a Love to Dream transition swaddle - with both arms in) lullaby playing, blinds down in nursery and into our bedroom white noise and shh pat (sitting still whilst holding seems to makes her cry each time, so we skip that bit) (resettled on shoulder at 8:54) asleep again 8:58 (resettled on shoulder at 9:40) on and off until 10:30.
E 11

Hoping the rest of the day looks a bit like this.
S 12:15 - 2:00
E 3:00
S 3:45 - 5:30
E @ bed 7:15

We're going to stick with implementing a routine and sleep training all in one go and hope all our efforts pay off! We're trying to put her down in crib and continue settling there as soon as possible, but a few mins too early and she awake and will need picking up again. Will she be getting used to being held if she's not being settled in crib as often?

We start swimming lessons tomorrow which will take us out the house from about 8:45 to 10:30 (right when she should be sleeping - IF she's up at 7). Is there anything you think I can do to avoid ruining our routine too much?

Thanks for your help

[creations]

It looks like you're doing really well and the shorter wind down looks like she is more comfortable and happier to go to sleep

Not much I can say about swimming, it's lovely for LOs who enjoy the water. She will likely be super hungry and super tired after it.  I'd be ready to feed her the moment you are out of the water even if it isn't E time.  And you'll have to just see how things pan out in terms of sleep.
Some Los adapt really well to these classes and get back on track with their routine very quickly (and sleep really well), others take several days to recover and get back on track. I took my DS at about 9 or 10 months and really it ended up too disruptive for us. He took a few days to get back on track by which time we were almost back to swimming day.  I personally found it too tiring to have the swim class (which exhausted me!) followed by poor sleep and no Y time for me to recover (for a number of days).  All very personal though.
I hope you enjoy it