Author Topic: Great settling for naps but not for bedtime  (Read 214 times)

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Offline Mia.Sky

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Great settling for naps but not for bedtime
« on: May 23, 2017, 23:47:06 pm »
My almost 13 month old is amazing at going to sleep during naps - I just put her in the crib and walk out of the room - she soothes herself for 5-10 min and sleeps for 45min - 2 hours. She was like that during bedtime too until 1 month ago when I guess separation anxiety kicked in and she didn't want me to leave the room. So I stayed there doing the walk in/walk out method - at least trying to as the moment she saw Im not near the crib she started crying - so she checked every once in a while. The thing is that it took her anywhere from 30 min to 1.5 hours to finally fall asleep - she was rolling all over the crib - sitting up, standing up, going down again, she wasn't playing - she was trying to fall asleep - she usually sucks her fingers and plays with a cloth for soothing herself - it seemed she just couldn't get there. I tried everything - putting her to sleep earlier, later, being much more active during the day, doing a quiet hour before bed with dimmed lights and quiet activities - nothing seems to work. And she wakes 1-3 times per night. Sleeping through the night is my dream - I hoped she will start after she turned 1 but that is still only a dream (that happened only a handful of times). I would very much appreciate any advices!

Otherwise she is an angel - very happy baby during the day - very busy walking right now :)

Offline Tabathagucci

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Re: Great settling for naps but not for bedtime
« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2017, 04:03:28 am »
Following as I am having a similar issue with my almost 16 month old.  It's been going on for about 2 weeks.  Would love to hear what people have to say!

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Re: Great settling for naps but not for bedtime
« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2017, 09:18:28 am »
Hi there MiaSky and welcome to BW forums :)
sorry to see you didn't get any support yet.

From what you've said it sounds like she's never been great sleeping at night - what do you usually do at night to help her settle again?  What methods did you use to sleep train in the first instance?

It could be a developmental leap - has she started to walk/run recently? this can often cause sleep disturbance.  Also many of us find that around the birthday time sleep goes off track (even for my 6yo!) and gradually comes back on track again.

It could also be that she needs a slight tweak to her routine - could you post your EAS times and we can have a look?


Offline Mia.Sky

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Re: Great settling for naps but not for bedtime
« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2017, 23:05:42 pm »
Hi creations :)
Thank you for your reply!
I was checking the forum for a couple of days and then gave up - thought that I won't get any replies.

She was an amazing sleeper from birth to 6 months - we were co-sleeping and she only woke up several times to nurse but never even cried. Although I was rocking her to sleep at that point. After 6 months we transferred her to co-sleeper and then to her crib at 7 months and she started waking up every 1-2 hours. That was because of the negative association that I have created (rocking). So we used a gentle shuffle method - I was in the room with her all the time - reassuring her, talking to her, shortly picking her and putting her down back to her crib when she became very unhappy - and little by little she found her way to sooth herself to sleep and now she uses it all the time - she sucks her fingers and play with a cloth lying on her side until she falls asleep.

at night if she wakes up at 10-11 - I tame her out of her crib - calm her down by rocking her a little bit - as she usually wakes up crying and I put her back there. If she wakes up at 3pm - I nurse her - and she falls back to sleep right away. Although I think its time to stop nursing at night...

I totally thought that it is a developmental leap - as when it started she started to learn how to walk - but now she does this perfectly - and its been 1.5 months already.

So 3.30 hours from her last nap (7pm) I give her some cereal and nurse her, then I brush her teeth, we have a little prayer ritual with blowing a candle, then we go to her room - change a diaper, put PJ on, read 2-3 books, several minutes of massage then hugs, kisses and I put her in her crib (7.30-7.45). and she tries for several minutes to sooth herself, but then stands up, throws the cloths out of the crib, if she doesn't see me she starts crying until I come close to her crib, give her a kiss or hug her, or put her down again.

There used to be a night light in her room and one night she figured how to unplug it and I have forgotten to plug it before I put her in the crib and it turned out that she sleeps better in complete darkness. Our curtains are pretty dark but when I put her to sleep it is not completely dark - I will try to block the light completely today - maybe this will help.

I'm so so so tired - everyone told us that after kids turn 1 - they will sleep through the night no matter how bad they were before - but that is not our case for sure..

Thank you so much for trying to help me!

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Re: Great settling for naps but not for bedtime
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2017, 10:17:34 am »
Hello again.
I'm glad to see you came back :)  Sorry it was a few days before you had a reply. We do try to make sure that everyone gets a reply in a timely manner (generally up to 24hrs after posting) but of course sometimes things are missed.  If this happens again please feel welcome to PM a moderator or start a new thread as this will likely be noticed.

I am not familiar with the "gentle shuffle" so just googled it. I can't see a thorough description of how the method works but from what i have read it involves helping and supporting your child to learn to self settle and does not involve leaving her to cry alone for any amount of time - this is the ethos of BW too.  I'm going to assume at this point that the methods are similar and complimentary.

So it does sound like there were some understandable developmental influences disturbing her sleep but that these are likely to have passed or be passing by now.  It is also a great discovery to find she likes the darker room and to sleep without the night light, this can change time to time with LOs as they grow (my own now needs a night light to go to sleep but it must be turned off at my bed time otherwise the light disturbs him).  It's also a really good idea to explore and invest in some good blackout blinds to create complete darkness.  Many of us here have found even a small chink of light can disturb our LOs sleep.  Kitchen foil is a good temporary solution as it can be fitted perfectly to the window and taped up, this way you can judge over time if the total black out helps before you invest in the black out blinds (and research which brands will really black out fully).

I would agree that a LO this age doesn't need food in the night any longer.  A gentle wean over a week or so could probably resolve this issue. Reducing the number of minutes you nurse in the night and making sure her daily calorie intake is good (high fats and proteins, eating at regular times in the day) should help with this. When you have reduced the milk intake at night you could then try a W2S 9wake to sleep, I can give you a link on how this works if you are not familiar with it) to try to avoid the waking in the night to encourage a new habit of sleep through - or if the W2S wasn't successful you would then resettle without nursing in your usual way with support and always responding to her.

There are a few things there then that may help your nights overall.  The other thing is to look at the daily routine and see if her naps and day sleep are appropriate for her needs.  Being OT (over tired) or UT (under tired) for night sleep can also cause NWs (night waking).
If you would like us to look at your routine could you please record a full day of EAS times and post them here.
E eat, include milk and solids, main meals and snacks, with a note of how much she eats or the type of food
A activity, the full time from when she wakes to when she falls asleep including any wind down activity you do
S sleep, the actual time she falls to sleep until the actual time she wakes up. If there is a resettle mid nap also show this with timings and how you get her back to sleep.
If you can post in this format something like:
WU (morning wake up time) 7.00
E 7 milk
E 8 breakfast
E 9.30 snack
A 3hrs
S 10.00 - 12.00 (2hrs)
E 12.30 lunch
E 2.30 snack
A 3hrs
S 3.00 - 4.30 (1hr 30)
...and so on through the day until
BT (bed time)
and include
NW (night waking, what time)
NF (night feeds)
through to the next morning WU. And please do note down the real times rather than what you hope for or plan for. it is more helpful for us to see what is really happening.

I'm so so so tired - everyone told us that after kids turn 1 - they will sleep through the night no matter how bad they were before - but that is not our case for sure..
Whilst I don't want to be the bearer of bad news I have to say that from 1yo to 2yo was likely the most disturbed time for me.  My DS was a fully independent sleeper but he was teething the entire year and this disturbed his sleep terribly.  Not all LOs have teething pain for so long but it was pretty much constant for my DS.  We had a break of 3 days between his canines finishing and his molars starting and in those 3 days it was like bliss for me, proper undisturbed sleep, because he didn't need me and had returned to self settling with no "re-training".  If you have times like this you really have to find rest wherever you can take it, sleep during her nap time or call someone in to help you out so you can rest a while. It does pass.

There is lots of support available here at BW.  I hope you'll stick around and get to know some of the people in the community.


Offline Mia.Sky

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Re: Great settling for naps but not for bedtime
« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2017, 05:01:13 am »
Hello!

Thank you so much for your reply! No worries - I understand that some days are really busy.
About the gentle shuffle - you got it totally right, although my baby is a very stubborn one and even with me being there all the time and trying to help her - there were lots of tears :(

thank you for your advices on the black out curtains - her window has blinds and curtains and today I covered it with a blanket (it made the room completely dark) and she went to sleep so much faster and almost didn't fuss at all - I had to come to her crib only once when she stood up and started fussing. I hope that this was the issue and it will get better from now on!

I agree - I will start weaning tonight. Can you please send me the link to W2S. When I tried this method before and I got to one  minute and detached her she didn't like that and started crying and didn't stop with all the soothing I tried until I gave her more milk. But maybe she wasn't ready then and it will work this time.

I will make the records of our daily routine tomorrow and post here.

:) so far teething was not very bad for her but she only got 4 teeth now - so we'll see how it goes :)

thank you so very much for your support! I appreciate that a lot!!! have a wonderful day!

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Re: Great settling for naps but not for bedtime
« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2017, 18:58:01 pm »
Here's the link for W2S. There is a section on nights but it may also be helpful to read all the info just so you have an idea of how it can be used and adapted.
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=223809.0
For getting past that last bit of night feed weaning, when you need to make the break from offering milk to not offering milk you can try the W2S, you can also try offering some water instead.  If your LO has now learned how to use a sippy cup it can be a useful thing to offer a little water in that at night.  Initially it can help the body get used to the idea that no calories whilst still offering a bit of comfort.  You are likely to find though that there is an element of using the nursing as a prop for sleep in the night, LO is so used to getting this night feed she relies on it to help her sleep rather than needing the food.  LOs over 12 months though very rarely wake from hunger so it is a habit you can break with support - unless there is illness or recovery from illness or some sort of problem with eating during the day.


Offline Mia.Sky

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Re: Great settling for naps but not for bedtime
« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2017, 03:51:57 am »
Awesome! thank you!

Last few days she started falling asleep much faster than before - after i made it completely dark in her room!
 
here is our daily routine:

she slept through the night the night before!
7.10 WU
7.15 milk
8.15 breakfast (oatmeal with raisins, blueberries and hemp seeds)
8.45-9.45 A
9.50 milk
10.00-11.30 S
11.35 snack (a few pieces of apple)
12.30 lunch (quinoa, veggies, tofu)
1.00-2.00 A
2.20 milk
2.30-3.40 S
3.50 snack cashew yogurt + mango puree
4.30-6.30 A
5.00 dinner - berries (usually for dinner i give her avocado, cheese, carrots and peas)
6.40 shower
6.50 cereal + milk
7.00-7.40 bedtime routine (brush teeth, prayer, blowing the candle, change diaper, PJ, read books, hugs, kisses
8.00 Asleep
3.00 NF
7.20 WU

Sorry if it is too detailed.

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Re: Great settling for naps but not for bedtime
« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2017, 09:46:03 am »
Last few days she started falling asleep much faster than before - after i made it completely dark in her room!
That's great news! :)

Sorry if it is too detailed.
No, it's not too detailed, it's lovely and clear.  Very helpful :)

A couple of things I notice about your routine - and that doesn't mean it is "wrong", if it is all working well for you then leave it as it is, but if there are areas where you are struggling or start to struggle in the coming weeks then perhaps have a think about these:
- She's getting quite a lot of sleep, which is great if it's all working, if there is nap or BT refusal or resistance it could be that she is a little UT (under tired) and just needs a bit less sleep as she is getting older.  Some LOs are reducing one of the naps down to a CN or have even dropped one of the naps at this age and moved to 1 nap per day. Some though can continue with 2 naps for several months yet. Just something to keep in mind.
- There are quite a lot of milk feeds in the day.  At this age LO only really needs 1-2 milk feeds, if you choose to offer more because you like to extend your BF that's fine but it might be helpful to know that as a toddler her primary food now is solids.  LOs this age can join in regular meal times and eat what you are eating (with very few exceptions such as no whole nuts, low salt, no/low sugar etc) so you might consider changing her meal time experience over the coming days/weeks and eating family meals with you.
- Her first A time is very short whilst the last A time is very long in comparison. As I've said if this works, fine.  If not you might consider moving the first nap later and adjusting the day to account for that.  In your first post you said she sometimes sleeps 45 min, this can be due to the A time being too short, however 45 min might also be fine for her if the other nap is longer.
- Night waking can be due to having too much day sleep.  If she continues to sleep through the night now then again that's great. Otherwise you might consider a routine tweak to help eliminate NWs.

Perhaps see how you go for a few days.


Offline Mia.Sky

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Re: Great settling for naps but not for bedtime
« Reply #9 on: June 27, 2017, 22:40:37 pm »
Hi!

Sorry for disappearing - those were busy days. We went camping and all the success we had gained so far almost disappeared and I had to begin again.

thank you for your comments! about her sleep - she was a short napper - like 45-50 min max each time and now I feel blessed when she sleeps for 1.30 hours! Although I got your point - I hope she will start dropping off one of the naps soon but from what I see now - after being awake for 2.5 hours in the morning she starts yawning, rubbing her eyes, being moody - so clearly tired and ready to sleep - it was 2 hours before - I always stretch it up to 2.5 hours. I will try 3 but it might be hard for her. So for now she definitely needs 2 naps.

As for food. I think you are right - it is time to stop nursing her before naps. I will leave only morning and evening feeding. And concerning solids - she eats the same food we eat for breakfast, lunch and dinner.

Before we went camping we had 1 week of amazing nights - she slept through the night most of them. So hopefully we are almost there!

Thank you so much for your help!!!


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Re: Great settling for naps but not for bedtime
« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2017, 09:34:51 am »
Hope you enjoyed your trip :)
It always takes a while to get back on track after a change like that. We're here if you end up struggling but often LOs can adapt back to their regular routine within a few days or a week.


Offline Mia.Sky

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Re: Great settling for naps but not for bedtime
« Reply #11 on: June 30, 2017, 05:03:01 am »
Hi creations

Today I have noticed that V really went to sleep easier and maybe it was because she had shorter naps today. So coming back to your post from several days ago where you said that she has too much sleep during the day and she might be UT - what do you recommend in case she takes big naps during the day? Thank you!

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Re: Great settling for naps but not for bedtime
« Reply #12 on: June 30, 2017, 09:46:19 am »
Yes, as I said it would be moving towards a routine where you reduce one of the naps to a CN - you did say thought that this sometimes happened with a 45 min nap anyway so rather than it randomly happening you'd look at the routine and make it more regular.  The other nap remains long.  To reduce one nap you either don't try to extend it and let her wake up or you wake her up.
Generally you wouldn't cap both naps as LO needs one long restorative sleep in the day.


Offline Mia.Sky

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Re: Great settling for naps but not for bedtime
« Reply #13 on: July 03, 2017, 04:43:16 am »
I got it. Thank you very much!