I'm ending up with an awfully overtired baby due to sleep training

[Alina.fluturas]

So I started today shush patting my 9 week old to sleep.
DISASTER - managed to get him to fall asleep in his crib only to wake up 10 mins later and restarted the process again with same end result - 10 mins of seep. It's now 4 pm ad I have an overtired baby who I can get to fall asleep now even with the usual method- holding him on my chest. I'm dreading tonight as he is now so overtired.
How will I ever be successful in getting my baby to fall asleep independently if this is what happens every time I attempt shuh -pat???
I'm sooo stressed

[creations]

Hello and welcome to BW forums

Sleep training takes a lot of time and effort. Shush/pat will be needed all the way into deep sleep to avoid LO waking at 10 mins. Tracy describes this in her BW books as it is quite common for parents to stop patting when LO nods off only to discover they wake soon after.  Once you see LO relax into deep sleep you should be able to stop patting - be warned though the rest of the sleep cycle is not overly long, about 20 mins before he will begin to transition into the next phase of sleep, light sleep and waking which you will need to pat through again.
Sleep training can be quite hard work and time consuming - but totally worth it in my view.

As you have only started today I think if you can continue you will see some improvements over the coming days and weeks.  The pay off is when he begins to fall to sleep independently and happily and you get your Y time

Try not to stress out about it though. If you find it too much maybe go for a slower approach of sleep training for one nap per day?
It is also normal for LOs to become OT during sleep training, ultimately this helps them move onto a consistent routine and helps with learning to sleep alone - but yes I know it feels awful on a day they sleep so little.

[Alina.fluturas]

Thank you so much for replying.
He actually jolted awake although I was continuing to shuh pat at the 10 minute mark...
Funny that is exactly what I decided from today on, to do the training only for the first nap in the day as he is pretty fresh from a full night sleep. Did this today and after the usual wake 10 mins and another 10 mins after, he slept for a total of about 1 h. He was still very cranky when he woke up so endeed up falling asleep 30 mins later on the boob but I think it is better this way.
Hopefully I will see him falling asleep independently soon just like my daughetr used to do when she was about 3 months old.

[creations]

So long as you're happy with how things are going and not getting overly stressed out by it all

[Alina.fluturas]

I admit I stressed so much about it - especially seeing him so tired and worrying it will impact on his night sleep which atm is so good.
I have one question about my shush/pat if you could please help  I'm a little confused: so I rub tummy and shush instead of patting the back and I actually continued the process even after LO was asleep but he still jolted awake and started crying 10 mins into his sleep - he fell back asleep so I continued and after another 7-8 mins he woke again ( so this is all while I was still shuh-rubbing) and became quite histerical. So my questions are: why is this happening (I admit I forgot to avoid visual contactand kept staring at him), do I pick him up and continue bck rubbing in my arms when he starts crying at the 10/20 min mark ? and am I not creating another prop if I keep shush rubbing him for so long - even while and after he fell asleep?

Thank you!

[creations]

There's a bit of info here about pressure through the jolts (we tend to call it HTTJ here, holding through the jolts) if you scroll down towards the end of the post:
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=223809.0
You might have more success with increased pressure and more 'hands on' at that 10 min mark especially if the 10 min jolt is predictable, not all jolts are predictably timed though so you just do what you can and don't stress about what you can't.

Light sleep and jolting is very normal and natural for young babies. Although as parents we would love them to sleep deeply and peacefully (and for a long time so I can have a shower, thank you!) it is safer for babies to sleep lightly.  The SIDS guidance warns against various things (which when you think about them are often the methods and tricks which previous generations did to make babies sleep more deeply) as it is safer for babies to sleep lightly. For us parents though it means these early months are pretty hard work - just keep reminding yourself this is a safer way.

If LO is crying yes you pick him up and use your shush/pat (or adapted) in arms until he is calm and then get him back to sleep in the cot (asleep in arms with shush/pat if needed then transfer to cot to continue shush/pat).  If possible, over days/weeks you put him down earlier, drowsy, but continue to shush/pat all the way to sleep in the cot...and then further down the line you reduce the shush/pat in the cot so that you stop just before he nods off even if you need to start up again once he is asleep or stay there to HTTJ (in this instance he learns to fall to sleep without patting, he practises each nap time, but he still gets help with those jolts and sleep cycle transitions so that later on he can also learn to get through those).

Shush/pat is not considered a prop as it is easily weaned over time.  It is a method that you return to whenever LO needs additional help, and reduce again.  At this point your LO is learning what it feels like to be asleep with his weight on the mattress of his cot, it is fine for you to sooth and help him feel confident and safe whilst he learns that feeling.  so even if you pat all the way through his nap he is still learning something towards independent sleep.  As this becomes easier (because he is more confident) you can reduce some.

Sleep training may well impact night sleep but the bigger picture is that you are moving towards self settling which means better sleep overall for both you and baby.  It is a process you and he go through together as a team.  It won't always go right in these early days. It can be hard work. But equally each nap time is a bonding time and an opportunity for you both to learn something and get better at it.

[Alina.fluturas]

Thank you very much for getting all this time to reply.
Now I understand better.
This morning I tried again, got him to fall asleep in the cot, managed to get through the first jolt with some protesting but picked him up anhe settled easily, fell back aslep in his cot for another 10-15 mins then he jolted again awake and got hysterical, no amount of shuh patting made him relax so I paced the house holding him and fell back asleep.
Bloody hard work this is!
I will have a look at the link you sent me see if that helps with these jolts.
Again thank you so much.
I do have another question hopefully you can answer.
One of the main reasons for trying to teach him to self settle and fall asleep independently is that I am worried sick about the 4 months sleep regression. He now goes 8-8.5 hs at night with no wake which is more than I could have wished for but knowing about  the change in sleep that happens around 4 months I really worry this falling asleep being held in arms will come back to haunt me.
Am I worrying for nothing? Might he not get affected after all by this sleep regression even if he doesn't self settle?

[creations]

I think you are only on day 2 of the EASY routine and shush/pat, it will get easier as the days go by.
The thing is with young babies (and all children) is that there really are times when it is utterly exhausting and hard work, and times when things get easier, and through all of that you have a wonderful child to love and who loves you - don't lose sight of that   It will all be worth it.

The 4 month regression is something that happens with most babies (or at least most I see on the boards, of course those who do not have difficulties may not go looking for forums such as these) and will happen (or not) regardless of whether your LO is sleep trained early.
I started very gentle sleep training on day one with my DS, he was very young of course and it took lots of time and was not always successful but by about 8 wks he was falling to sleep independently and by 10 weeks he even showed a preference for his own bed upstairs rather than the travel cot I wanted him to sleep in in our family room where I could stay close.  Thing were going well, his wind down was quick and after putting him down I just left the room and he would nod off in moments and sleep for 2hrs.  Lovely.  However, at 3.5  months (so roughly 14 wks...only a few weeks after being fully independent and doing great naps) his 4 month regression came early (he was almost two weeks over at birth so in effect he was already 4 months old) and I had no idea it was coming or what had hit me. 40 min naps, cranky baby, wouldn't stay asleep, I couldn't believe it...and that's when I found this place.  Honestly I had 2 months of pretty awful routine but at 5.5 months it passed.
I don't want to make it out like a nightmare, but it can be a very tricky phase even with an independent sleeper.
Some people choose not to sleep train until LO is 4 months and I personally find it harder to advise people at that time because short naps could be the regression, could be poor routine with inappropriate timings or it could be due to not being able to self settle or transition between sleep cycles, for me it is harder to figure out with so many variables.  But even so, people do successfully sleep train at that age too.

The thing is with the 4 month regression *it will pass*. All these tricky phase *do pass*.
I'd like to say you are worrying for nothing because really there isn't much you can do to avoid it.
There are so many "regressions" and other reasons for sleep disturbance throughout the baby and toddler years..even through the bigger kid years (mine came into me in the middle of the night last night having had a nightmare, it is rare but he climbed in with me and later woke us all up again when he fell out of my bed!  It happens and we didn't sleep brilliantly but that's kids, you know?) and no matter what you do you will not be able to avoid them all.  Illness, teething, developmental leaps, they all disturb sleep and you will get through them all even when it feels really hard.

Yes it helps if LO is an independent sleeper. Clearly I am a big believer in giving the gift of sleep to your child, giving the gift of trusting you so much that they no longer need you every second of the day, that's why I focused my efforts so much when mine was young and I have always been pleased I did. When we have one of these tricky times I know I can help him to sleep and when he is ready to return to independence he will do with very little encouragement.

If you don't feel ready at this point to continue with the sleep training then there is no pressure to continue (you are still very welcome to hang out here on the boards for all your questions and in the birth clubs threads where there are parents with similar aged babies for general chat). You need to take care of your own needs too and it does sound like you are worrying a good deal about what is happening now and what will happen in the future.  Of course we all worry, that's a parents job hey?  If though you feel you are overwhelmed or overly stressed it might be an idea to look at the Edinburgh test or reach out for support in real life, perhaps talk with your DH, your health visitor or doctor?
Here's a link for the test
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=43462.0

There's a chance that your timing is not quite right for LO. If you have been recording your EAS times you can post them for me to look at?  it's best if you post a whole day/night from WU (wake up) to BT (bed time) and include DF (dream feed) or NF (night feeds) and NWs (night waking not for food). also include and short notes about what happened, like this:
WU 7
E 7
A 1hr
S 8 - 8.40 with jolts and resettle at 8.10, would not resettle at 8.40 crying hard
A took out of room to calm down
S 9.40 - 10 jolts at 10 and 17 mins would not resettle, cried hard
E 10
S 10.30 - 11.30 in arms/sling jolted and resettled
...and so on.
Don't worry about if the routine is EASASAE or whatever order, just note down what happens when.

Hope this helps x

[Alina.fluturas]

I can sure do that!
So last night he went to bed at 8.30pm.
First wake at 5am for feed.
I don't dream feed - he usually does 8-8.5 hours at night with no wake.
Back to sleep but he stired awake at around 7 am (I think he had sme trapped wind as he was grunting a lot before waking up) - at this time he clearly looked like he wanted to sleep a bit more so took him on me and he slept until 8am.
E 8am He's breastfed.
some A time
took for first nap (the one during which  I do the shush pat) at about 9 am when I noticed the first yawn. Did the nap routine (nappy change, a lulaby, swaddle). On my chest for a minute or so the started shuh pat in crib. Asleep in about 5-7 mins. First jolt at 10 mins with waking and some crying - took him in my arms and settled quickly then back in crib with shuh pat - asleep within 2 mins. He had a few more jolts but didn't wake and I thought great we did it, then I had a surprise when he jolted pretty late - I was about to leave the room in fact and didn't manage to settle him in crib as was hysterical already so managed to get him to settle and fall asleep while holding and then I put him down (ont ummy oops but he sleeps so much better when on tummy) and slept until 11am.
E 11am - half of expressed milk in bottle
A
E around 11.40 - I cannot for the life of me understand why sometimes he prefers to eat in 2 stages rather than all in one
S on me just after 12 pm but managed to put him down quickly and stayed asleep until 1.45 pm.
Some A
E 2pm
Some A
S on me at about 3.15 pm and I thinkhe woke up just before 5 pm
E 5pm
some A but for some reason he was rather grumpy and looked tired and by 5.45 he fell asleep already on me so:
S 5.45 til about 7.15 pm
E 7.30pm
then Bath at 8pm
E approx 8.20 pm and in bed asleep around 8.45pm.

Tomorrow will be another day, hopefully I get some progress with the sleep training on Nap 1.
xx

[Alina.fluturas]

Just wanted to write an update on our shush pat from this morning.
So took him in room around 9.15 am - nap routine as usual.
DS Was yawning while I was doing the 'sitting' of the 4S. In crib awake and started the shush rubbing (actually just the tummy rubbing as I put shush recording from youtube as my mouth gets so dry from all that shushin 20 mins plus and this way I can keep out of his sight and not visually stimulate him). Fell asleep at 9.33 am. We easily passed the 10 min mark then he had a few mini-jolts but no awakening, I continued the rubbing until he had been asleep for 20 min but thenhe  jolted awake at 27min from falling asleep. WHYYYY??? I thought hes supposed to be in deep sleep by then and we are safe. He even started sneezing (!) and that was it, no chance of getting him to fall back asleep in his crib no matter how much shush rubbing I would do. Picked him up and he fell asleep over my shoulder.
Arghhh...
Shall I pat myself on the back and consider this some kind of progress??
xx

[creations]

Your routine looks okay. The night you described is really good, a long stretch of sleep there
To be honest there is nothing in the timings that jumps out at me as needing tweaking.
Every nap you manage to get him to fall to sleep in the cot is progress, it may not feel like it, but it is. Even the naps where he falls asleep on you but you manage to put him down and he stays asleep, it is still progress.  Still moving towards that end goal

Could he have a cold perhaps? Maybe you've started sleep training at just the same time a cold was coming on?  It would explain the sneezing and of course babies who are a bit poorly are going to be harder to put down.

Have you checked the reflux symptoms list?
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=654.0
I thought we had a link somewhere which contained a silent reflux symptom list too, I don't seem able to see it right now. I'll look/ask around.

[Alina.fluturas]

Thanks creations, I wouldn't think he has a cold, no other symptoms and the sneezing did not repeat.
Also checked the reflux symptom list and I don't think he suffers with this, he is usually content when lying flat, hardly any spit=ups, he has days whe he doesn't hiccup at all etc.
I will keep you updated with our progress on sleep training.
xx

[Alina.fluturas]

So Day 4 of sleep training
Took him for nap routine at about 9.20 am. He fell asleep in his cot so quick with hardly any intervention from me - shuh on youtube and most gentle rubbng on tummy with no eye contactand he was out in 3-5 mins. No waking until the same 27-28min  mark when he woke up and couldnot put himself back to sleep at all, I left him at it and he fussed and fussed then I started rubbing him on tummy but the fussing escalated into crying so picked him up. Took a very long time for him to fall asleep on me then put him down quite quick after he fell asleep and he is now still asleep.
I do not understand why this wake up at precisely 27/28 mins, he has obviously learnt to put himself to sleep as he needed so little intervention from me initially but then he just can't go back to sleep on his own after he wakes up.
I'm sure he is not over/under tired - he would not fall asleep so easily plus I'm acting o the first sign of tiredness.
Maybe he's still learning and soon enough we'll go past this hiccup.
If anyone knows from own experience what is this nearly 30 min wake up and how long it will take to get over this, I'd be very grateful if you could share!!!

[Lindsay27]

My DS was very much like this, and (though this is probably not what you want to hear), even with an age-appropriate A time he usually woke at 30 or 45mins until he was around 6 months old.  I attribute this largely to it being entirely a developmental thing where they simply need to learn how to connect their sleep cycles together.  My DD was very much the same also, but it seemed as though she learnt this skill around 4 months/when she was on a consistent 2hr A time.

I would say though that if with shh/pat it is taking 15mins to fall asleep, I would probably go ahead and extend the A time slightly, even 5mins at this age can sometimes be enough to make a difference.

[Alina.fluturas]

Thank you Lindsay,

What do you think the awake time should be then?