11 month old...are we making progress?!

[Laura.S]

Hi,

I'm wondering if we are making progress and what we should do next...

My 11 month old was waking a couple of times a night and this could have been up to 2 or 3 hours as we tried anything we could to settle him. Settling for naps was becoming an issue as well. The problem was that he learnt to stand and would just cry and scream until we rocked etc him to sleep to stop him standing up again.

We have been trying PUPD for a week now and the last couple of nights we have been able to settle him quickly at his first night wake around 1.30am by laying him down and putting a hand on his back for a few minutes. We can leave the room within 10 to 15mins which is brilliant. He then wakes about 5.30 and is harder to settle at this one. I often try for an hour and then have to get him up. He has settled once with hand on back and one time the wake to sleep method seemed to work.

Naps are still difficult. I lay him down and try to use voice to soothe but after a few minutes of being upset I lay him down and put my hand on his back. I have to do this a few times until he eventually falls asleep.

He hasn't yet got himself to lie down from standing.

The last couple of days he has woken during his lunch nap and I had to resettle him. He's not done this for a long time so I hope he's not regressing here!

My question is...is this progress? Should we keep doing what we're doing? Is it normal for him to start waking during his lunch nap as we progress with the method? He is still waking twice a night...will we see improvement soon?

Thanks in advance for any advice / thoughts!!!

Laura X

[creations]

Hello and welcome to BW forums

It sounds like you've made great progress already. This is quite a tricky time for sleep training as you are discovering with your LO learning to stand, it adds another complication to the mix.  LOs end up standing even when they don't want to and then find they can't get themselves back down again, it is a normal developmental phase and it will pass. There are a few things you can try to help it pass:
- show him how to hold the bars of his cot and move his hands down one at a time, lower and lower until his bum plops onto the mattress, from this sitting position he may find it easier to lay down
- tell him "sit down" first rather than giving the instruction "lie down" as this is a two step instruction which needs the first step to happen before being able to do the second step
- practise during A time, try to limit the length of time in high chairs, pushchairs and other things which limit movement and give as much floor time as you possibly can
If he is standing during his lunch time nap then this can be the reason for that disturbance, he comes to light sleep and the end of a sleep cycle and his body automatically stands, he then finds himself in a position he can't get out of and can't get back to sleep.  If he is not standing mid nap then this is not the reason.

11 months too can be a tricky time in terms of developmental and sleep needs, routines often change around this time as some LOs are starting to work towards one nap. The journey towards 1 nap can take many months or it can end up happening much sooner than you expected.  This could be one of the reasons you are seeing disturbance in the nap.  He could be a bit UT (under tired) for the nap.
If he has started the move towards 1 nap you could tweak his routine into a more appropriate one which should help him to get off to sleep at nap time and stay asleep for one long nap, and have one other nap which is a CN.
Some info here:
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=163278.0

To be honest it can be difficult to work out routines when you are in the middle of sleep training but equally you need a suitable routine to assist in the sleep training because trying to get a LO to go to sleep or stay asleep when UT (or OT) is incredibly difficult all round.
I would have a read of the 2-1 faq linked above and see what you think, you know him best and you know your routine and how he responds best.

If you would like to post your EAS times we can have a look too.

hope this helps

[Laura.S]

Thanks so much for your reply. Really helpful info and suggestions. Here are our EAS times (these are what I aim for but often doesn't work out this way):

WU 7am
E 7am breastfeed
E 7.45 breakfast
A 2hours 30mins
S 9.30 - 9.50
E 9.50 snack
A 3hours 10mins
E 12 lunch
S 1- 3pm
E 3pm snack
A 4 hours 30mins
E 5.30 dinner
E 7pm breastfeed
S 7.30pm

At the moment he usually wakes between 5.30 and 6 and I try PUPD until 6.30 when I take him to my bed to BF. A couple of times recently he has fallen asleep during this BF but I have woken him again. If he wakes before 6 I make first nap earlier so it's 2.5 hours after he woke up. If he wakes after 6 I keep it at 9.30. I always aim for 1pm for 2nd nap but often it is 1.30 by the time he actually settles. The length of time he sleeps for this second nap is usually about 1hour 30mins and as I mentioned the last few days he has been waking between sleep cycles (yesterday he woke after 40mins and stood up and I couldn't get him back to sleep). Bedtime is often 8pm by the time my husband finishes bathing and reading stories with our LO.

He is easiest to settle at bedtime. I let him cry gently for about 6mins then I lay him down with hand on back then voice to soothe and he usually is content and settles himself. He is difficult to settle at nap times.

Should I tweak timings? I'd love to hear your thoughts. Should I leave him for longer when he's standing and protest crying to see if he can lie himself down? Should I just keep PUPD until this standing phase passes?!

Thanks so much

[Laura.S]

Just thought I'd add what happened today...might just be a one off though. My LO woke at 3.30am took 30mins to settle (hand on back, not really crying) then woke again at 6.10am with very loud cries and wouldn't settle so got him up for the day. My husband did breakfast etc and I found them both asleep on the spare bed...apparently he slept for about an hour from 9.30am. He settled quite well for lunch nap at 1.30 sleeping for almost 2 hours then was quite settled at bedtime going to sleep at 8pm. I had him on his little push around car a lot today so maybe he had just used up more energy. Will see how he is tonight.

[creations]

To be honest the A times you are aiming for look rather out to me - perhaps you took guidance on times from another sleep training method rather than BW - if those times were working for you I'd say go with it, but as they are not I'd recommend moving towards a more suitable sleep routine.
That first A time is very short for an 11  month old, it's more like a 4 month olds A time.  Whilst the last A time is very long and whilst some LOs this age can manage this length of time it all seems rather unbalanced - a very long A time at the end of the day, if LO isn't ready for it, can lead to EW due to OT.  I honestly cannot say for certain if this is the case with your LO because I have limited information but for now I would suggest increasing the first A time (this encourages a later morning WU time and also a better nap) and decreasing the last A time (prevent EW from OT).

It might be tricky for a few days to shift the routine but I'd suggest on day 1 you just get him up and start the day.
Day 1 might look something like this
WU 6 (or earlier)
A 3hr 30
S 9.30 (no earlier even if WU time was 5am or 5.30am) - 10.30
A 3hr 30
S 2 - 4
A 3hr 30
BT 7.30

Then day 2 shift everything by 15 mins
WU (any)
A 3hr 30 (may be longer depending on WU time)
S 9.45 - 10.45 (no earlier)
A 3hr 30
S 2.15 - 4.15
A 3hr 30
BT 7.45

and day 3 shift everything another 15 mins
WU (any)
A 3hr 30 (or longer depending on WU time)
S 10 - 11
A 3hr 30
S 2.30 - 4.30
A 3hr 30
BT 8pm

You will need to shift your E times around these suggested routine changes.

Then hold there for a week and see how things settle down.
Like I said before there are lots of things happening at this age. You are sleep training plus he is going through a developmental leap plus possibly needing a bit less sleep and there is probably teething to throw into the mix as well!  But I would start there and see how it goes.

For settling him, I would not let him cry for any amount of time. We do not agree with any level of controlled crying on BW forums. If he is mantra-crying (different, he is not upset, it is a rhythmical sound LO uses to self settle) that is fine but any escalation and you need to respond. It is probably easier to help him learn to self settle if you keep a hand on him for now going on your descriptions.  So, if he is laying down put a hand on and help him sleep. If he is standing up tell him or show him to sit down, then lie down (help him). This is the PD part of PUPD, at this age you do not need to PU unless LO needs it.

During this phase it would be really helpful if you could keep accurate records of the EAS times, what actually happens rather than what you planned for, with a brief note about what you did to resettle, LOs mood (if resisting nap or playful, crying etc) and if LO woke mid nap what time that was at etc.

The routine I have suggested is quite different and you might not feel ready to move to this, take a few days to have a think about it if you like.  It may also not be the optimum routine for your LO but it is a starting point and from there I could look at how he responds, how the routine pans out and perhaps make some further suggestions.

hope this helps

[Laura.S]

Thank you so much for your reply. I was following another sleep programme but really wish I'd found BW sooner! BW makes sense to me and my LO seems much happier in his bed now. Actually he also seems more confident during awake times. Thanks for the suggested routines. I'll have a go at those and let you know how we get on next week

[creations]

I was following another sleep programme

Seeing your nap routine times, I thought so
Here is a link to guidance A times which BW uses:
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=84884.0
You will see that at 6 months the A time is around 3hrs, and some are getting more than this - so a 2.5hr A time which you have been trying is kind of counter productive and doesn't help with the attempt to sleep train.
You will also see at 11 months the guidance times vary quite considerably between 3hr 30 and 4hr 30 but also that some are getting much more than this and moving to one nap (or have already moved to one nap), this is because we always judge the A times based on the individual child's need and not a "one size fits all" schedule.
As I said, the routines I've suggested above are just a starting point, the longer A time might appear difficult initially, or the opposite, it might appear to work miracles initially but then after a few days seem tricky again...it really is just a starting point as we don't yet know what will suit your LO best.

Also I should mention, I know you posted about the night time waking, early morning waking and to see if you were making progress with sleep training - and I have mainly responded with day time nap suggestions. This is because the routine as a whole, both day and night, all interlinks. Day sleep effects night sleep and night sleep effects day sleep. Hopefully things will improve all round for you over the coming days/weeks as you find the best routine and teach the self settling.

Lastly, if you have done any sort of controlled crying where you leave LO alone in his cot and he is calling or crying for you for any length of time (some other methods do this) I strongly advise that you no longer follow that method. There are FAQs you can read on the site about the effects of CC.  You may need to spend more time now regaining trust before the BW sleep training methods take effect fully.  If you think there is a chance that the bond of trust may have been damaged (due to use of other methods) we do have a FAQ which explains how to re-build this trust bond.  If you do not feel this then going forward the focus would be on responding immediately to calls or cries (only a low level mantra is considered okay to leave LO as this is a self soothing sound) and to support your LO throughout his struggles.

Hope you have a good week and do let us know how you get on so we can continue to support you

[Laura.S]

Hi thanks again for your help and advice So we have had a week and a half of following your suggested sleep routine, continuing with hand on back for settling. I haven't left him to cry for any length of time. Previously we left him for a few mins then comforted him then left him again for a few mins then comforted if not settled. He usually fell asleep within a few minutes though, sometimes chatting and sometimes crying gently. He slept through the night a few times around 7 months and around 10months. He usually woke once though and when he did I fed him back to sleep. It was when he started standing in his cot that I didn't want to leave him to cry as he seemed unable to settle himself - we resorted to anything we could do to try and get him back to sleep but when I realised we were failing badly lol I knew we needed some help. This is when I found the PUPD method in my BW book which has worked well for helping him to lie down himself.

I have posted below how the last few days have gone. I would be so grateful if you could have a look and let me know what you think. I guess my questions now are...do we need to adapt how we settle him (particularly for the times he wakes after 4am when my attempts seem to make things worse / do I need to persevere) and should I change our nap routine?

6th July

WU 5.15
E 5.15 bf both fell asleep for 30mins during bf
    7.30 breakfast
A 4hr 30hr (not counting 30min sleep during bf) a little grumpy but generally happy.
S 9.45 - 10.45 took 20mins to settle with hand on back stood up a few times but I laid him back down. Gentle crying then one big cry then asleep. I woke him after an hour.
E 10.45 snack
    12.30 lunch
A 3hr 45 happy and good form but very clingy.
S 2.30 - 4.20 took 20 mins to settle, similar to above nap. Woke himself at 4.20.
E 4.20 bf and snack
    5.50 dinner
     7.15 bf
A 3hr 40
S 8pm took 20mins to settle similar to above. Woke at 3.30 am - took an hour to resettle - not really crying - just wriggling and trying to get comfy.

7th July

WU 6.50am
E 6.50 bf
    7.30 breakfast
A 3hr20 good form
S 10.10- 11.10 reasonably easy to settle for nap, took 15 mins, crying gently on and off then asleep with hand on back. I woke him after an hour.
E 11.10 snack
    12.45 lunch
A 8hr 20 good form until nap time and I tried to put him down at 2.20, tried for 40 mins to settle him then break of 15mins as we read a story then tried again for another 25mins. He calmed for first 10mins but then escalated and got angry and upset when I tried to lie him down, making his body rigid then turning on his back and crying hard. Very difficult to make myself heard over his shouting. Got him up for the rest of the day. He was in reasonably good mood.
E 3.30 bf and snack
    5.30 dinner
    7.10 bf
S 7.40 easy enough to settle, took 10mins. Told him to sit down then move hands then lie down and he did. Didn't seem to want my hand on his back. Fell asleep. Woke at 11.55pm and took 10mins to resettle with hand on back - loud shouts to start with but quickly calmed.

8th July

WU 5.30am
E 5.30 bf
    6.45 breakfast
A 4hr 20 in good form on waking, generally good form but sleepy around 8am.
S 9.50 - 10.50 Easy to settle - told him to sit down then move hands then lie down, turned light out, he stood up but lay himself back down, hand on back for few mins then asleep, no crying. I woke him after an hour.
E 10.55 snack
    12.30 lunch
A 4 hr good form. Didn't eat much lunch. Tired in car around 1.50pm.
S 2.50 - 3.40 Took 25mins to settle - lay down when asked but stood up a few times, angry when I lay him down and very loud shouting, I sat on a chair and gently told him every now and again to lie down, then I lay him down hand on back and he fell asleep. I tried to resettle him for 20mins when he woke up but he got more and more upset and angry with me laying him down.
E 4pm bf
    5.50 pm dinner
    7.40 bf
A 4hr 40 good form. Little clingy.
S 8.30pm took 30mins to settle. Calmed with my voice then became upset after a while and wanted to hold on to me then settled with my hand on his back. He woke at 4.40 am and I tried to lie him down a few times but he got very agitated and upset so I fed him one breast then put him back in cot but he held in to me so let him suck for a couple more mins then laid him down again and he fell asleep quickly.
   
9th July

WU 6.30
E 6.30 bf
    7.45 breakfast
A 3hr40 he was very happy and not sleepy when he woke and was in good form this morning.
S 10.10am - 11.10 Took 20mins to settle him to sleep for nap - he lay himself down and I turned the light out then he stood up and lay himself down a couple of times but then stood up and cried loudly so after a few mins of telling him to sit down I lay him down hand on back and gently sang and he fell asleep. I woke him after an hour.
E 11.15 snack
    1.30 lunch
A 3hr 45 happy and good form. A little hyper before nap time.
S 2.45- 4.20 took 20mins to settle. Lay down himself stood up a few times but lay down again each time. I left the room when he had quietened but he stood up again but by the time I got to the room he had laid himself down. I sang a couple of lines of the song I was singing then he was quiet. Didn't put my hand on his back. Woke up himself at 4.20.
E 4.25 snack
    5.45 dinner
     7.15 bf
A 4hr a little grumpy but generally ok.
S 8.20pm took 40mins to settle - whiny and wanting to hold my hand which he has never done before. Wriggling to get comfy then fell asleep with my hand on his back and gently singing. Woke at 1.30am resettled within 10mins with hand on back. Woke again at 3.30 I lay him down but he started getting very upset and angry so tried feeding one breast but mostly comfort sucking for 10mins then he came off and I lay him down but immediately annoyed and loud but laid himself down again and quietened with hand on back. Stood up a few more times and let me lay him down - sometimes quietening and still other times quiet and wriggling or gently kicking cot bars. After an hour and half he became very agitated and upset and made his body rigid any time I touched him or tried to lie him down. Then my husband came in and got him up changed nappy. They fell asleep on the bed and I realised and woke them at 7.30am.

10th July

WU 7.30 am
E 7.30 bf
    8.15 breakfast
A 3hrs in good form waking up and throughout morning.
S 10.30 -  11am easy enough to settle - took about 15mins. He complained in babble but then settled with my hand on his back. I woke him after half an hour to keep wake up at 11.
E 11 snack
    12.30 lunch
A 3hr45 reasonable form, grumpy before nap.
S 2.45pm - 4.30 took 15mins to settle - complained a little but lay himself down a few times then settled with hand on back. Woke him up at 4.30 to allow for 8pm bedtime.
E 4.30 bf
   6pm dinner
A 3hr35 good mood. Tired and a little grumpy around 7pm
S 8.05pm settled well with hand on back and gentle singing. Took 10mins. He woke at 3.30am and took an hour to resettle - hand on back then he wanted to hold my hand but eventually settled with hand on back. He was crying on and off but it angry cries.

11th July

WU 6.20am
E 6.20 bf
    7.15 breakfast
A 3hr45 good form mostly
S 10.05am - 10.45 settled in 15mins. Annoyed that I wouldn't let him hold my hand a couple of times but settled with hand on back and gentle singing. Woke himself after one sleep cycle.
E 11 snack
   12.45 lunch
A 3hr 30 very cuddly when he woke up. Clingy and quite grumpy throughout awake time. Put him down earlier for nap (was going to aim for 2.30 but very tired).
S 2.15pm - (it's now 3.45pm and he's still sleeping looks like he's gonna sleep the full 2 hours) loud complaining when settling him and some crying for 10mins but then quickly quietened and settled with hand on back and gentle singing.

Thanks!!
Laura

[Laura.S]

In addition to my last msg my son woke from today's afternoon nap at 3.45 and was in good form until bedtime at 8pm when he settled within 15mins with hand on back and gentle singing. Also I always have white noise playing in his room all night (been doing this since about 7months) and I turn on a lullaby which turns off after 20 minutes.

Thanks

[creations]

Hi Laura
Looks like you're doing really well

Looking at your routine transition there isn't much that leaps out at me, clearly there have been a couple of nights of quite good sleep but also a couple with long NWs which isn't great.  It looks like he is mostly handling the longer A time well and goign down easier for naps and BT with the newer routine, but it looks like he might be in less of a good mood after a short first nap of say 30 or 40 mins than he was after 1hr - would you agree?

Wondering if you have any feeling of your own based on how the days/nights are going at the moment?  For instance do you feel that the shorter morning nap and longer afternoon nap are suitable for him or do you find yourself feeling that he would be in a better mood with a longer first nap and shorter second nap?  For instance if you did not wake him after 1hr or if his A time was long enough for him to sleep longer than one sleep cycle on those days you didn't wake him at 1hr?