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Offline Serenede

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Please can someone help with our EASy routine or lack of
« on: August 11, 2017, 12:36:48 pm »
Hi,

Please could i have some advice on my ds of 12 weeks. We had been working on a 3 hour easy but he is now taking short naps of 30 minutes so is constantly OT and wanting to nap every hour. Our routine looks something like this.

A: 7,15am
E: 8am
A: 8.15-8.45
S:8.45-9.15 (usually in crib but will not self settle so having to put down asleep) cant resettle when he wakes
A:9.15-10 but then tired and wants to sleep again
S:10-10.30 (car seat or sling)
Awake and grumpy as still tired, wont cope with activity so pace around the house/garden with him trying to keep him going until 11am feed.
E: 11am
S:11.30-12
A:12-1
S:1-1.30 (crib after falling asleep on me)
Awake and again trying to keep him going until 2pm for next feed as still tired.
E:2pm
S:2.30-3pm (sling or car seat)
A:3-4pm
S:4-4.30
A:4.30-5 but miserable
E:5pm
S:5.30-6pm on me or swinging chair
6.30pm bath
E:7pm
Asleep by 7.30 and can self settle in crib
Wakes around 5am for feed then back down settling himself again until 7.15 ish

I have tried to get him to settle in his crib during day but he just creams hysterically with shush patting until i pick him up, should I preserve but for how long? Or would pu/pd work better?
This morning he woke at 5.40am instead of 5am and would not go back to sleep and has not been able to tolerate more than 2omins of activity before needing to sleep again.

Any ideas would be great. Have tried a DF but he then wakes again 4 hours later so doesnt seem to help. Getting desperate now and feel so sorry for him being so tired all day  :(

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Re: Please can someone help with our EASy routine or lack of
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2017, 15:42:42 pm »
Hello and welcome to BW forums :)

It looks like your A time and general routine is about right other than him not sleeping a good nap.
As your planned routine is okay I would guess that his inability to sleep longer is down to two likely reasons:
1. He is not learning to self settle for naps so when he comes into a lighter sleep and realises he is in a different position to when he went to sleep (in cot rather than in arms) he is disturbed by this, worries that you have gone and needs to pull himself out of sleep all the way to full wakefulness to call or cry for you - basically to check that he is still safe.  Sleep training for the start of naps can help with this.
2. He has not learned to transition from one sleep cycle to the next so fully wakes instead of moving into the next sleep cycle.  Sleep training for the start of naps and mid nap can help with this.

Being able to self settle for night sleep is different than for naps - babies tend to work out their night sleep before their day sleep which is why you are seeing better nights with ability to self sooth and transition between cycles.  That's great :) Now he needs help to learn to do this in the day time too.

During sleep training he may lose out on some sleep and the temptation can be to put him down or have him sleep in arms to catch up but eventually the OT can work in your favour to teach him to go to sleep and stay asleep in his cot. Also he will learn that you are there to support him, and will return to him no matter what, which increases his trust and confidence in you so that he is more able to go it alone.

I would suggest you stick with similar times to those you are already using (A time of 1hr 30, this is counted from eyes open and baby awake to eyes shut and baby asleep, including activity, feed and nappy change) but really focus on getting him to sleep in his cot rather than nod off in arms.  Because he will resist falling to sleep in his cot his nap may come late and he may become somewhat OT but for the period of sleep training I suggest you still count nap time as when the nap should have started. You then keep him in the bedroom and try to keep him asleep or resettle until nap time is planned to end (1.5hrs)

I see on your other thread you mention he does not like to be on his side, the safest position for babies to sleep in on their back. For shush/pat you can do this with baby on his back and pat his nappy area which is quite padded, just don't pat hard on the tummy, the hip is an easily accessible area.  This still gives him the soothing sensation of the beat and also reminds him Mummy is right there with him. It is not a no-cry method it is intended as support through a change in sleeping habits.
If he cries hard you can pick up and fully calm in arms (take as long as needed) but you need to get him down before he nods off.
If he nods off the second you pick him up I suggest not picking up to your shoulder but instead keeping in a horizontal position like lying on the mattress and not lift more than a centimetre from the mattress, that way you can get him down rapidly but gently before he nods off (this lift might be as short as a couple of seconds if he is super tired and nodding off the moment you lift).  Once down and asleep keep your hand on him either in the hold position or patting or a firm hand where you were patting with the occasional pat to reassure.
You should be able to start getting him into the cot over a say 2-3 days even if naps remain short.

For the short naps, here is a link to W2S (wake to sleep) I suggest you to read naps option 1:
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=223809.0
Once your LO is asleep in the cot I suggest initially you do not leave the room (or if you do it is very brief, quick nip to the toilet for example) because you will need to use shush/pat or a firm hand to see him through the jolts you mentioned and also to see him through that 30 min transition. In the link you will see it says return at 30 min ready for the 40/45 min wake up - your LO is waking earlier than this so you must adapt the method. You need to be in there with a hand on him or hovering 1cm away from him at 20/25 mins ready for the 30 min wake up.  Shush/pat throughout the transition all the way to deep sleep.
It may be necessary to stay the entire nap for a few days and to repeat the W2S every 30 mins.
If he fully wakes follow the same pattern to resettle as you did for the start of the nap, picking up as needed but always getting him back into his cot before sleep.  Continue until the full 1.5hr nap is due to be over.

During this period you will time the end of nap when it "should" have ended.  So follow the nap time with a full A time of 1hr 30, if you reduce the A time because he is really complaining for sleep then I suggest you do not reduce to0 much, say 10 mins only. Although it seems hard to keep him up if he didn't sleep well the tiredness level will help him to learn to settle and to stay asleep - ultimately you are not aiming for an OT baby but a well rested one but it takes some time and effort to reach that goal.

I see from your EASY times that sometimes he sleep in the car or sling.  If there is a time of day you regularly go out to the shops or baby groups etc and need there to be a car nap you can continue this but I do suggest you keep it to the same nap every day.  LOs learn rapidly where they are to sleep so long as you keep it consistent.  It is possible for instance to always have nap 1 in the cot at home and always have nap 2 in the car - the difficulty comes when we want LOs to change their habits all the time from nap to nap and day to day.  Have a think about where you'd really like him to sleep for each nap and try to work out a routine which accommodates LOs need for predictability along with your need to shop or take him to social groups.

I hope you find this useful to get you started. If you could record your EASY with a brief note about waking mid nap, mood, if he resettled and how long it took etc you can post it if you'd like me to look at your progress.
Once he is in his cot and sleeping better you can begin to wean the shush/pat for the next stage of training.  This may be only 2-3 days away depending how things go.


Offline Serenede

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Re: Please can someone help with our EASy routine or lack of
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2017, 20:36:48 pm »
Hi Creations,

Thank you so much for your extensive reply  :)

I will start tomorrow with the shush pat routine, if baby doesn't settle at all do I just keep going until the end of nap time 1.5 hours and then try again at the next nap time?

I also have a 6 year old DD who is on school holidays at the moment so staying in the room with him for 1.5 hours is going to be difficult. My husband is off for the next three days so hopefully we will be on our way to cracking it by the time he goes back to work. Pretty sure i can keep to the same routine of nap 1 in the car going to school then nap 2 and 3 at home. We do however have some days out planned in the next week will this be a disaster?

I will post how things are going once we have a couple of days to look at.

Thank you again

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Re: Please can someone help with our EASy routine or lack of
« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2017, 08:27:33 am »
if baby doesn't settle at all do I just keep going until the end of nap time 1.5 hours and then try again at the next nap time?
In the BW books Tracy describes staying trying to resettle until the end, or almost the end, of the nap time. That means yes, 1.5hr or near to it.  On the forums we tend to suggest trying to resettle for 45 mins and then stopping - this would not get you to the end of your nap time but if things are not going well and LO is screaming he may need a slightly earlier feed as crying and being awake means using up more calories than being calm and asleep - so you might stop before the end of the planned nap time and you might feed a bit earlier. This is your call as you are Mummy :)

I also have a 6yo - any chance she'd settle down to watch a movie for DS's nap time once per day so you can focus on LO?
if you can't work on every nap pick one and work on that, same time each day so Lo can learn the habit.

We do however have some days out planned in the next week will this be a disaster?
Any interruption to the routine and any drop in consistency is likely to have an effect. Some babies are more mobile than others and some manage the days out better because they are already independent sleepers on a consistent routine which means although they have one disturbed day they can spend the following day getting back on track.  The days out may well prolong the sleep training process but obviously you have to weigh up the needs of the whole family including going out.


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Re: Please can someone help with our EASy routine or lack of
« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2017, 20:05:56 pm »
Thanks Creations, yes DD will happily watch a film during nap time whilst she is on school holidays  :)
So today went like this, sorry for the huge post!

5.20am 6oz feed then back down
7am -WU
7-8am- A- swinging chair, baby gym got dressed
8am- E, 6oz milk
8.23- S, took to bedroom as getting very grizzly, changed nappy, closed blinds, cuddled at the same time as starting shush pat.
8.33-put in crib and continued shush pat, got quite grizzly so had to shush quite loud then quietened down went through three cycles of this and was asleep at 8.48am! Had a muzzy which he was holding  to his face.
Was fairly fidgety for first 20mins so kept the shush going but just held a firm hand on his tummy. The deep sleep then came so stopped both.
Decided not to do the WTS to see what the exact wake up time was.
09.50-started to wake so started shush pat again but he woke fully. Gave it until 10.10am but he wouldn't go back off and was screaming. As he had had double the time than usual I got him up.
He was fairly happy until 10.35 in the swinging chair yawning a lot. Got quite upset so walked around house and garden.
11am- E, 6oz milk
11.15- happy and smiling being bounced on my knee. Went on playmat for 15 mins
11.40- getting very grumpy took upstairs and did the same routine as before. He screamed as soon as I shut the blinds so calmed him in my arms then put him down but he screamed and was hysterical.
Picked him up to calm him but this only worked if I did my usual bounce! Each time he was calm I put him down but he got hysterical again so after 8 times Of pu/pd decided not to do it again. Then I kept shush patting but after 10 mins I thought he might be sick as he was so hysterical so I changed to rubbing his leg but this made the crib jiggle. This calmed him almost instantly and he went off. I know this isn't ideal but I guess at least he was in the crib and I can cut back on the amount of jiggling. I didn't need to restart it at the jolts either. If I'm wrong on this please say, should I have left it the full 1.5 hours with him screaming without the jiggling even if he hasn't settled? He was asleep at 12.28.
He started to stir at 13.12 but stayed asleep until 13.17pm I tried for five minutes to get him back off but as nap time was officially over at 1.20pm I didn't push it.
He then led in his poddle pod while we had lunch and seemed quite happy.
Played under the gym
14.20-5oz milk
14.40-15.00 cuddles with daddy and DD
15.00-17.20pm-
Had to go out so slept in the car seat, went off very easily usually he screams for 10 minutes.
He never normally sleeps this long when out and about so wasn't sure wether to wake him after the 1.5 hours but decided to leave him then woke him at 17.20pm.
17.30pm- E,5oz milk
17.45-19.15- A, led in poddle pod, swinging chair quite happily but started grizzling at 18.45 so went for a walk in the sling which he stayed awake for.
19.15- Bath
19.30- 6oz milk and DH now trying to settle him as he's screaming which he never does. Too much sleep I'm guessing??? My mind is wondering wether I've tortured him and he can't now settle himself  ???
20.20- now asleep after having to shush pat

Any thoughts on today?


« Last Edit: August 12, 2017, 20:25:18 pm by Serenede »

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Re: Please can someone help with our EASy routine or lack of
« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2017, 10:16:15 am »
Sounds like a good start :)

The first nap went off really well especially as it was only day 1!!

Second nap was harder and from his protests when you shut the blinds and being hysterical at put down it sounds like he might have been a little UT (under tired) but this is very hard to tell with a LO who is not yet sleep trained so I am cautious to suggest any longer on your A time just yet because it could just be sleep in his cot he is complaining about.  I would keep on as you are as there seems a good change things are going to improve over the coming days.

Using a muzzy as comfort is fab.  Let him use it every sleep if he finds comfort in it - only thing I suggest is removing it once he is properly asleep as it is still a risk at this age to leave anything in the cot.

I changed to rubbing his leg but this made the crib jiggle. This calmed him almost instantly and he went off. I know this isn't ideal but I guess at least he was in the crib and I can cut back on the amount of jiggling.
Sounds great - I would keep using this to be honest.  My DS couldn't be patted (silent reflux and patting made him uncomfortable and upset) and was rocked or jiggled in the cot with a firm hand on him - it sounds similar - it can be reduced and weaned just like patting so please don't worry about it.  The only thing you need to bare in mind is that just like patting your aim is to reduce. At this point use it as much as needed and over the days reduce in an on-off and more-less fashion as needed.  You can also use this at his W2S or jolts to try to extend sleep.  The main thing here is that he is in the cot falling asleep which is brilliant - the rubbing/jiggling can be weaned far easier than holding or hand holding or various other things.

19.30- 6oz milk and DH now trying to settle him as he's screaming which he never does. Too much sleep I'm guessing??? My mind is wondering wether I've tortured him and he can't now settle himself
Try not to read too much into one bad BT which might look like a step in the wrong direction. You made great progress across the day and that BT resistance could be all sorts of reasons.  Possibly because he slept more than usual, possibly because his last nap was long - but I don't think there is need to change anything at this point.  Sleep training does and will disturb sleep in the short term because you are creating a new routine, you can only expect things to be a bit up in the air.
You have not tortured him, you have been there with him the whole time supporting him and he's never felt abandoned or hopeless.

All in all very good I'd say :)  Keep going with the same plan.  Keep your expectations low.  There can be some regression after a few days so you can also expect things to appear a bit harder too but keep the successes in mind and it will spur you on to that goal :)


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Re: Please can someone help with our EASy routine or lack of
« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2017, 19:39:00 pm »
Thanks Creations, it's really nice to have some support  :)

So day two went like this:

04.00- 5oz feed
06.30-WU
07.00-E 5oz milk
07.15-08.10-A
08.25- S
Took 15 mins of shush/stroking crib rocked slightly just shushed through jolts with hand on tummy
Woke very abruptly at 9.06am and wouldn't go back off.
A- 9.30-10am, very upset crying a lot DH took him out in sling to calm him. Managed to keep him awake
10.10- E 7oz milk
10.25-10.55- A, playmat
10.55-took up to room and did the same routine as before
11.12-11.57-S went off fairly quickly with stroking/rocking and shushing 
Tried to get him to go back off but didn't work
Crying a lot still seemed tired, went out.
1.40- E, 3oz milk
14.19-14.50-S in car
A-
16.00-16.45- S in car
16.45- E- 4oz milk
17.00- A- playmat, walk in sling
18.45-Bath
19.00- E- 7oz milk
19.30- S- settled himself

I think today went fairly well with the sleeps in the cot I would just like to be able to extend the naps a bit. I also think he is ready for a 3.5 hour EASY as he doesn't seem overly hungry after three hours only at the 10am feed. Not sure how to go about this with the short naps though?


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Re: Please can someone help with our EASy routine or lack of
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2017, 08:00:16 am »
You're doing well to get those naps starting in the cot and 15 mins to settle is quite normal too - Tracy said it takes 20 mins to fall to sleep so anything less is a bonus :)
Try to be in there before the 40/45 min mark to help him through the transition with the hand on him (jiggle if needed).

If he isn't too hungry for the 10am feed you can just move it 15 - 30 mins later. It should work out okay to fit it in and him still be awake for a wind down for sleep.  You don't have to feed as soon as the nap is over, just try to time any feed so that it can be finished in time for the next nap to avoid a feed to sleep prop. If he does nod off wake him (nappy change often helps) before putting him in the cot so he knows what is happening. I know it seems counterproductive to wake him when you want him asleep but he needs to know where he is so that he is not surprised to find himself in the cot.


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Re: Please can someone help with our EASy routine or lack of
« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2017, 20:11:07 pm »
Hi, just thought I would post an update to let you know how we are getting in and to see if you have any tips for the areas we are struggling. So our EAS has looked along the lines of this for the past 3/4 days

05.30- NF 6oz milk settles back down independently
08.15- WU- very happy and easily entertained until
09.10- 7oz milk
A- until 09.55
S-10.05-10.35- settles quite quickly in crib with gentle rocking and shushing.
A- 10.35-11.40- starting to get upset as tired again
E-12- fed early as desperate to sleep
S- 12.30-13.14- fell asleep feeding but woke before putting in crib, setttled easily no rocking needed.
Very miserable on waking but couldn't get him back off
A- 13.14-14.30 (really hard to keep him going so went out but still didn't fall asleep in car)
S-14.30-15.17- in sling
E-15.40- 6oz milk
A- 15.17-17.00
S- 17.00-17.55 in sling
E- 18.15-3oz milk
A-17.55-18.55
18.55-bath
19.15-E- 7oz milk BT settles independently

So I feel we are making progress with getting him to have the 1st and 2nd nap of the day in the crib but I am really struggling to keep him there for more than one sleep cycle. The first three days I did the WTS nap option 1 but he was waking as soon as I started shushing and rocking so felt I was disturbing him. The last three days I have done WTS nap option 3 which seems to work for the first jolt but at the second one his eyes immediately ping open and that's it there is no getting him back off. He is like this even on long car journeys, in the moving pram or sling. So where do I go from here? He's generally a really happy baby so I am feeling sorry for him that he gets so miserable through lack of daytime sleep  :(

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Re: Please can someone help with our EASy routine or lack of
« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2017, 08:46:25 am »
I would have another go at the W2S option 1.  LOs are expected to wake, it's the end of a sleep cycle and waking is normal but they learn to go back to sleep, I would do the shushing and rocking (that you do for the beginning of nap) in the cot even though he wakes and continue to try to get him to sleep.  The W2S method should be tried in cycles of 3-4 days then hold off, then another cycle of 3-4 days then hold off - it can take several cycles to teach him to stay asleep.
You could also try that first A time at 2hrs which is an increase of around 10 mins.  He did do an hour nap at that time on day 1 and it's possible that although he gets extremely tired through the day due to short naps he might need a slightly longer A to help him sleep better. I would just try on the first nap or 2 for now.

There is also a period of development around 4 months where many LOs don't nap well which you have now entered.  This means that although you've made great steps in sleep training (in cot for the start of naps) there may be a need to just keep going and trying for a while longer on the extending.  This phase is often 4 - 6 month although it can be at slightly different times for individuals.


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Re: Please can someone help with our EASy routine or lack of
« Reply #10 on: September 03, 2017, 15:52:25 pm »
Hi,

Im back after a week or so with an update and more questions which i hope you dont mind helping with. So our EAS routine now looks something like this:

WU- 06.30
E- 06.45 6oz milk
A-06.30-08.15
S- 08.15-08.45 (went down with little fuss) try to extend but no luck
A-08.45-10
S-10-10.45- Fussed and cried a lot
E-11 7oz milk
Fairly unhappy, sometimes I think its tiredness but am also thinking it could be wanting to be close to me as he is happier when picked up.
A-10.45-12.25
S- 12.25-13.00-in car
A-13.00-14.30 -Went for a walk with DD on her bike but didnt fall asleep
E-14.30 6oz milk
S-14.50-15.30 in car
A-15.30-17.00
S-17.00-17.35 -sling
E-17.40-50z milk
A-17.40-18.50
E-18.50-6oz milk
7.10-BT settled well

This is a typical day but with it being school holidays it is a bit different each day. My plan from Wednesday this week is to have nap 1 in the car/pram on the way to school and then nap 2 in the crib and work on extending this one. I have tried extending naps with only one success with going back in when he wakes. Ive tried this consistently over 4/5 days but it just doesnt seem to work for him.

I find if he doesnt have a CN within an hour of bedtime he is really hard to settle but this is often hard as it is teatime for DD. The other problem we have is that it is only me that can get him down in the cot for sleeps. DH is only around for daytime naps at weekends and he literally screams for a long time. Should we persevere with this and let DH do all naps at weekends? The most frustrating thing I am finding is that he is tired all the time from the short naps but i just cant seem to extend, even if he is in the car/pushchair it is the same. I remeber DD being the same until 6/7 months?

I have tried extending his activity time at the first nap to two hours but this gives us a 20 minute nap. He was doing 40/45 minutes after 1.5 hours but this now seems to be 30 minutes? I have upped it to  1.75 but again 30 minutes.

I am really hoping with the new consistent routine starting this week we may make some progress and at least get one longer nap per day so I will update in a few days. Any help much appreciated x


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Re: Please can someone help with our EASy routine or lack of
« Reply #11 on: September 05, 2017, 09:58:48 am »
So yesterday went quite well in that he was awake for 1.75 hours then slept for 45 minutes with little fuss going down and no rocking. Second nap he slept 12.45-13.30 the i resettled him by 14.05 and he slept on until 16.30! Unfortunately i couldnt get a short nap in before bedtime so fed him at 18.40 and he fell straight asleep only to wake half hour later and i had to shush him for 20 minutes. He then woke at 1am and 5.30am and would only settle with a feed  :(

So do you think the NW's were due to too much day sleep? Or has he hit the 4 month regression? He is 16 weeks Thursday? Should I feed in the night? Do you think the shushing is providing a prop so he needs it during the night if he wakes? Although as i said he would only settle with a feed

This morning he went down after 1.75 hours again only to sleep for 20 minutes! There seems to no consistency.

Would really appreciate some advice as feeling rather stressed x

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Re: Please can someone help with our EASy routine or lack of
« Reply #12 on: September 05, 2017, 19:43:43 pm »
Hi
The NWs could well just be a growth spurt, if it's been 3hrs or so since the last feed I'd just go ahead and feed rather than trying to resettle for a long time.

I know you've tried a few different A times but overall it looks like a good A time is needed before the first nap to get a longer nap there, then more likely OT is building across the day due to short naps.   It sounds like there was also some build up of OT over a number of days due to lots of shorter naps, many OT naps too.  The very long nap after a resettle can also be a sign of OT build up over days - longer than a normal nap which can be a catch up.

I would keep the A times steady for now and try not to shift them around too much.

I have tried extending naps with only one success with going back in when he wakes. Ive tried this consistently over 4/5 days but it just doesnt seem to work for him.
Are you waiting for him to wake up before you go in?


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Re: Please can someone help with our EASy routine or lack of
« Reply #13 on: September 05, 2017, 22:29:44 pm »
Thank you  :D

He screamed blue murder going to bed tonight, so frustrating when he used to settle himself at night  :(

I have tried both, going in at the 30 minute mark and starting the shush and when that hasn't worked have tried leaving him till he wakes to see if he can resettle himself before going in.

Another question, he has a dummy in the day sometimes for sleeps in the pram as he finds it hard to go off but don't want to introduce it if I can help it for naps or night sleep in case it causes more problems but do you think I should get rid of it altogether in case it's confusing him?

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Re: Please can someone help with our EASy routine or lack of
« Reply #14 on: September 06, 2017, 21:44:40 pm »
The only advice I can really give on dummy use is to inform yourself as much as you can on dummy use and then make a decision.  Using a dummy for sleeps is a prop and LO will become reliant on it however SIDS guide lines suggests risk is reduced for LOs who use a dummy for sleeps, also that if a LO is reliant on the dummy it should not be dropped suddenly before 6 months old due to increased risk.
My own LO wouldn't take one so I wasn't in the position to have to decide.

I have tried both, going in at the 30 minute mark and starting the shush and when that hasn't worked
OK, can you describe what is happening when you do this?  How long are you in there, what does LO doe etc.

I would keep A times as steady as you can and the routine as consistent as you can for now and record your EAS times each day, also I'd record any particular activity such as low stimulation and high stimulation (trips out, new toys, loud places, guests to the house, swimming classes etc) and see if a pattern shows WRT short naps.