I'm back... no improvement and we're now 10 months old

[BobbysMummy]

Hi
I hope you don't mind me starting a new tgegead, can't find my last!
So we're now 10 months old and have slept through 3 times, 2 of which have been at my mil's. Last night he woke up 7 times. I am shattered! I've also got a 2 year old so can't sleep when baby does etc.
This is his current routine. He really struggles with A time any longer then 3.5hours. He usually starts to show sleepy signs and gets grumpy at 3hrs A.
5-6am - WU (try to resettle with dummy if it's before 6)
7am - 6oz bottle
7.30 - breakfast
9-9.30 - nap (I wake him after 1.30, I always have to wake him as he would sleep around 2 hours or more)
11.30 - lunch
1/1.30pm - 6oz bottle
1.30/2pm - nap (between 1-1.5hrs here, I usually wake him at 3)
4.30/5pm - dinner
6pm - bath
6.15/6.30 - 7oz bottle
7pm - asleep

Am I doing something wrong with his routine? Or is it time to sleep train?
Thank you!

[ginger428]

Hi there... had a quick look through to your older posts. (If you click on your username, then "show posts", it'll take you to the thread)

Can you describe your sleep routines and how he falls asleep?

What times does he wake at night and what happens at each waking? What does he do and what do you do?

Thanks!

[BobbysMummy]

Ah thanks for that!!
He falls asleep alone for all naps and at night, he has a dummy and a comforter. I've never fed or rocked him to sleep.
When he wakes its at different times every night, usually after 12 though. He pretty much screams as soon as he wakes. We rush in and put his dummy back in (before he wakes my toddler) and he usually falls straight back to sleep. But this can happen numerous times a night, usually around 5 times.
I'm debating sleep training, cry it out I think is the only thing that would possibly work for him. He doesn't want picking up so pupd wouldn't work. But I'm scared to try it because he has once passed out when he got himself so upset, it was very scary. He's a very sensitive baby, big separation anxiety issues at the moment (if I walk away from him in the day he screams and cries, he wants to be near me at all times in the day), he also has terrible 'anger' problems... I feel awful saying that!! But his temper is unreal!!! So that's him and sleep routine explained as best I can. Any ideas? X

[ginger428]

Np! Ok, so BabyWhisperer is against all forms of cry it out... this means that we never leave the baby to cry alone. Yes, the gentler methods we use produces tears, but we never leave a child alone to cry for any amount of time. ESPECIALLY since you know your son will escalate to the point of passing out. This age is known for separation anxiety and what seems like "anger problems' are really their way of coping.  I hear you... the cries and screams are heartbreaking and unnerving (my son was and still is like that- a screamer)... it is really their way of crying out when they feel their world is confusing or hard. Their brain develops so quickly... so it's quite an adjustment the first year of life.

Why do you think he doesn't wake at your MIL's... are you in the house? I wonder what the sleeping environment is like? Is the routine different... meaning the times he naps, eats, and BT?

FYI, here is a great article with lots of links to PU/PD and ADAPTATIONs of it.  My son also was sensitive and didn't respond well to PUpd. We did more of a hold and hover and squeeze and pat, and all sorts of other methods to help him.
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=275699.0

If you GOOGLE search "pacifier sleep prop baby whisperer forums" you'll see a few hits from the past years about ways to eliminate this prop.   

[BobbysMummy]

Thanks for replying.
I couldn't let him cry, not after what happened when he was with me and got so over tired and upset and then passed out... wouldn't ever feel comfortable leaving him to cry knowing that. I'm just so tired it's hard.
So it seems you think the dummy could be the problem? Which is what a few people have said to me.
I have no idea how or why he sleeps through at my mil's, I'm not there with him. He has he same routine as he does when he's with me. The only difference is that he's in a travel cot there.
I noticed you didn't comment on the routine so I'm guessing everything looks ok with that? I think the wakings are a habitual thing rather then his routine. X

[LaraAndrea]

One possibility with the night wakes could be too much daytime sleep. I have noticed such a range with LOs at this age on this site, so it is hard to say. Just a thought my LO is 10.5 months and lower on sleep need spectrum. She is best with 2-2.5h of daytime sleep.

It is not unusual for babies at this age to do one long nap (let him go for 2h in AM for example) then a 2nd short nap.

I only have the one babe so I can only imagine the challenges that go with managing sleep of two LOs.

I also think that once your LO's night improves you may be able to increase AT.

[ginger428]

I would ask your MIL if he cries out at all at night for the dummy and see what she says.  She just may not be responding to him right away, which helps him settle back to sleep.  Or MIL might not be hearing him and thinks he's STTN?

Yes, dummies are props and it may be the major role here.

Like LaraAndrea said and I forgot to mention also... soon he'll need an increase in awake time... and I also agree with her that he may need a shortened nap.

[BobbysMummy]

He's basically been up since 3am today and yesterday it was 1am and waking constantly. At the end of my patience. MIL said he doesn't cry out at hers, if he does it's a whimper then back to sleep. She's a very light sleeper so I know it's not a case of her not hearing him either. He's woken my 2 year old up today at 4.30 so he's very grumpy today too.
So I think that's it it, dummy goes tonight, cold turkey. I do love having a dummy for them and something that comforts them so quickly but I can't cope with the lack of sleep anymore.
It's so hard to cut his naps at the moment as he's so tired and grumpy from bad night sleep. Yesterday he has 2 hours in the morning and an hour and 15 in the afternoon.
Should I continue to let him have a long AM nap and cut the afternoon one down to total a days sleep of 2.5 hours? So he would have only been allowed 30 mins PM nap yesterday.
Any other advice?
He's on about 3-4hours A time. 3 for AM A time and between 3-4 in the afternoon.
Thank you for continuing to support x

[ginger428]

When we had such bad night sleep, I would first try to catch him up on sleep.. but in your case I would reduce the om nap. His awake time for his age is closer to 4. I wouldn't do anything less than 3.5. Perhaps try 3.5 in the am, 4 in the pm. And 3.5 before bed.