7 month old A time?

[ellieelmo]

Well, I know I said I'd retire this thread, but lots has changed and I'm in need of further help - not sure whether to post here or start a new thread...?

DD is now 7 months but some of the same old problems are still there
The issue I have at the moment is again the A times. At the moment I think were around 2.30 or 2.45. There doesn't seem to be a right time that works for all naps.

Yesterday's EASY

WU 6.10am
E BF both sides and then breakfast at 07.45
A 3hrs
S 09.52 - 10.55 I put her in her cot at 09.00 as usual but she played and then cried and took resettling with shhh pat.

E offered breast, one side 
A 2.5hrs
E lunch around 12.00
S 13.35 - 14.00 put her in her cot at 2.5hrs and she went to sleep with sshhh pat in 5 mins. But only slept for 25mins and woke crying. Resettled and she slept for a further 15mins until 14.33 then woke kicking around happy.

E one side
A 2hrs
S 16.28 - 17.01 APOP (on my shoulder) this sleep I usually have in the pram or on my shoulder just to not stress her with another bout of crying before sleep. I always have to wake her from this nap. If we're in the pushchair I come home and lift her into the porch which tends to jostle her awake a bit, she wakes happy.

E one side then dinner at 17.15
A 2hs 10mins
S 19.10 - 00.19 had to resettle with sshhh pat at 21.29, 23.34. Tried resettling at 00.19 with shhh pat and she did keep trying to go but then waking again with her tired cry.

E 01.15 both sides, put her down awake after she started trying to play at 01.52 and she went off without shhh pat. If she wakes before midnight I tend to resettle her with any other than the breast as I know from good nights that she only needs one feed now, at around 1am or 2am so I'm trying not to go backwards by feeding her at each waking just to get her back to sleep.
S 01.52 - 05.39

Brought her into bed with us as I just couldn't shh pat, little comfort suck then she slept for 40mins, woke 06.40.

Put her down at 09.00 this morning but she didn't put her self to sleep until 09.47 but even then was only for 10mins, have just resettled with shh pat. I've been trying to fix a nap at 9am so she wakes up a little later at 6.30 and some days 9am is perfect, like tuesday, other days like today it appears to be 40mins out?

She always fights me if I try to rock/ bounce/ sing her to drowsy so I am putting her down awake with white noise, which is leading to her either playing around in her cot for a while, then doing her over tired cry or just crying immediately. If I get her drowsy using the breast she will go to sleep easier (I still put her down awake) and then it's 3 lots of shhh pat to get her to sleep.

She is learning to crawl, has progressed to getting up on her hands and knees now and sort of rocking there but not got the moving part down yet. She can however army crawl around already. Her nights have been interrupted lately by her trying to roll onto her tummy and not going to sleep there so for her morning nap yesterday I put her down on her tummy and stayed in the room with her and last night I settled her on her tummy with shhh pat and it was easier to settle her two NW than if she'd been on her back.

So, my questions are:
- Is it normal for the A times to vary like this throughout the day?
- The last sleep always is the one she wants to sleep the longest for, I think you said in a previous post, though I can't find it, that that means A times are off a bit?
- Even if I do give her longer A times, the other day she accidentally had 4hrs, fell asleep in the sling but still only for 30mins, is it possible that she's just going through a phase of 30min naps?

On the plus side though she can put herself to sleep easily with or without shh pat it seems to be a question of getting the right A time which I am finding sooo hard. She'll be going to nursery at 10.5 months we think.

Any help, as ever, appreciated!

[jessmum46]

DD is now 7 months but some of the same old problems are still there 
The issue I have at the moment is again the A times. At the moment I think were around 2.30 or 2.45

Without reading any further I suspect this might be some of your issue!  2h30-45 is pretty short for 7 months, most can handle around 3h at this stage (if not more - my DD was on closer to 3h30) and would be on 2 naps, rather than 3.  The fact that you are seeing inconsistency with similar A times also suggests more A time is needed - you typically get a pattern of short (UT) nap, then longer naps (catch-up due to short naps), then short again once LO is caught up.

Brought her into bed with us as I just couldn't shh pat, little comfort suck then she slept for 40mins, woke 06.40.

Put her down at 09.00 this morning but she didn't put her self to sleep until 09.47 but even then was only for 10mins, have just resettled with shh pat. I've been trying to fix a nap at 9am so she wakes up a little later at 6.30 and some days 9am is perfect, like tuesday, other days like today it appears to be 40mins out?

That's only 2h20 A time - so likely she just wasn't tired.  Set naps can work with some babies but we'd generally recommend going by A times if you have variation in your morning WU time.  I'm not sure how a 9am nap would help get you to a 6.30am WU?  Again that's a short A time,  and often too early and long a morning nap encourages an EW.

I think I would be tempted to stick to 3h A time come what may now.  If you get a good first nap, then hopefully whatever the second nap length should be enough to get you to a reasonable bedtime.  If the first is short and you can't resettle then try for as close to 3h as you can for the second A time.  Even if she's OT you may be more likely to get the resettle that time and get to a reasonable bedtime.  I'd be tempted to avoid a catnap unless both naps are a disaster - instead use early bedtime.

I had a rule which was if second nap ends at 3pm or later, BT was 3h after WU.  If second nap ended before 2pm then AP a short catnap and 7pm ish bedtime.  If woke between 2-3pm it was a bit tricky - I would have a quick try for a catnap in the afternoon but if not happening within 10 mins or so I would abandon and go for 6pm bedtime.  Not sure if that will help but maybe worth a try?

[creations]

Hi there
I would imagine your A times are all too short to be honest.
Most 6 month olds are doing 3hrs so I would think your LO should be doing at least that at this point, and possibly a touch more for one (or more) of the A times, maybe 3hr 15.  Also many LOs do need longer than this.
It could be that you are mis-reading the crying and short naps, both can look like readiness for sleep or OT signs, but they can just as well be UT signs.
I would move all A times to 3hrs and aim for just 2 naps in the day and see how things go.  If naps turn out to be shorter than needed to get through the day on 2 naps then squeeze in a CN (and move BT a bit later if she's not tired enough).

If I get her drowsy using the breast she will go to sleep easier

BF will do that but it doesn't help you to work out if she was properly tired or what her true A time need is.  It can also lead to too much dependence 9either from her or you) on BF prior to sleep.  When you take that option away you are likely to get into a more stable routine.

She'll be going to nursery at 10.5 months we think.

I wouldn't worry about routine and nursery just yet. A LOT happens between 7 and 10/11 months. Some 10/11 month olds are already moving to one nap or showing signs of it so really you can think about  nursery routine much closer to that time.
For now I'd focus on getting her onto a routine more appropriate for a 7 month old.

hope that helps

Posted with Katherine.

[ellieelmo]

Hiya,

Thank you both for your replies.

The fact that you are seeing inconsistency with similar A times also suggests more A time is needed - you typically get a pattern of short (UT) nap, then longer naps (catch-up due to short naps), then short again once LO is caught up.

Ok, that explains it. I've been doing all naps in the pushchair for a few days to try and let her put herself to sleep when ready and that's where we've seen short A times. Today she did 3hr 10 A time and then slept for 35 mins, then 2hrs 20 A time and slept for 1hr 10 waking at 13.50 and refused another nap so I went with a 6.45 BT which means almost 5hrs A time.

I'm not sure how a 9am nap would help get you to a 6.30am WU? 

I think I may have misunderstood some other advice given on here, I thought if her A time is 2.5hrs, by setting a nap at 9 she'd realise that in order to be tired for that nap she'd need not wake up earlier than 6.30am.

I think I would be tempted to stick to 3h A time come what may now.

Yes, will deffo do this for naps I can control (tbh I just went out to run an errand and expected her to fall asleep on the way back around 3hrs but instead she fell asleep on the way there)

If naps turn out to be shorter than needed to get through the day on 2 naps then squeeze in a CN (and move BT a bit later if she's not tired enough).

Could you give me a recommendation on nap length - I am always aiming for 1hr in the AM then 2.5hrs at lunch although she's never once done it. Is that still an appropriate schedule for her? I should say, she does not do 10.5+ hrs at night though so the recommendation for 3hrs in the day might need to be higher to make up for crappy nights? She does now however average about 11/12hrs in each 24 so SUCH an improvement on when she was much younger ironically.

Thank you for your advice already given.

[becj86]

I think I may have misunderstood some other advice given on here, I thought if her A time is 2.5hrs, by setting a nap at 9 she'd realise that in order to be tired for that nap she'd need not wake up earlier than 6.30am.

Sorry! May have misguided you unintentionally there - that was when she was 5 months old... The A time must increase as she gets older

[jessmum46]

^^^this exactly   The principle is right, it's just the A time is too short now.  If you really want to set a morning nap time (though that isn't generally the BW way of doing things so I don't have a great deal of experience of that) then you would need to set it at 9.30am earliest for a 6.30am WU now I would think. 

It's slightly hard to guide you on nap length as what you might expect with a set naps sort of routine is different to a 'standard' BW routine.  Basically getting her rested is the aim!  But if you want some sort of timings then on a standard 3h A time BW routine we would expect something like:

WU 6.30
Nap 9.30-11
Nap 2-3.30/4
BT 6.30/7

But on a 'set naps' sort of routine it is often more like:

WU 6.30
Nap 9.30 for 30-60 mins (variable, and often people wake from this nap)
Nap 1/1.30ish??  uncapped i.e. let her sleep as long as she wants unless it interferes with bedtime
BT 6.30/7

I should say, she does not do 10.5+ hrs at night though so the recommendation for 3hrs in the day might need to be higher to make up for crappy nights?

This could be due to A times being too short - you may find that as she stretches A times and drops one of the naps she sleeps better and longer at night.  Too much daytime sleep can actually make the nights worse - and ultimately you want the sleep over time to be shifting to the night, not the day so I would be wary of allowing daytime catch-up too much.  She may never be a 12h night sleeper - my DD was but DS very much more an 11h standard night guy - but I would bet with some routine changes she could manage at least 10.5h on a regular basis x

[ellieelmo]

If you really want to set a morning nap time (though that isn't generally the BW way of doing things so I don't have a great deal of experience of that)

Sorry, I didn't mean set in the time sense! Rather help her to expect that there is always a nap after wake up, nappy change, nurse, cuddles/play, solids, nappy change, sleep. This morning she was up at 6.15 and has just gone down at 9.25 easily ish. Fingers crossed.

Sorry! May have misguided you unintentionally there

Not at all! I understood the principle just had a lot of other mums say they're babies can only take 2hrs - 2.5hrs of A time : /

For the last few days we've been at 3hr 10 and she's been having goodish naps I think? between 40mins and 1hr 10mins but I read on another thread just this morning that anything under 90mins is UT? But she is really tired and ready and falls asleep within 10mins so is she really UT?

Also, as she seems to be doing better (I mean, 2 months ago daytime independent sleep was non existent!) roughly how often an A time increase should I be looking to do? 10 mins every week or so? I also read on another thread that the pushchair naps are not a good indicator of A time a she's basically lulled into sleep before she's ready? So I guess that explains why her A times have been closer to 2hrs 20mins or so when we're out walking? Also, she's absolutely exhausted at the end of the day and falls asleep quite easily at 2hrs 20mins.

Lunch time nap is still the worst - very short like 20mins so she is still really in need of a 3rd around 3.30 / 4pm. I have started capping this at 30mins.

Her nights were getting a bit better, but last two nights have been rough - she's uncomfortable in some way. I don't know if its wind, or teeth or general growing pains. She's so close to crawling now I'm trying to giver her TONS of practice time in the day. And also rolling back again as she sometimes gets onto her tummy and then wants to be back on her side but can't get her arm through into position. Gah.

Thank you for your help.

[jessmum46]

Sorry, I didn't mean set in the time sense! Rather help her to expect that there is always a nap after wake up, nappy change, nurse, cuddles/play, solids, nappy change, sleep. This morning she was up at 6.15 and has just gone down at 9.25 easily ish. Fingers crossed.

Ah ok!  I get you now

Sounds good that you have been getting better naps, but yes you may need to push a smidge further to get them to fully lengthen out.  Does she seem well-rested though?  If she is then there's an argument for not changing things just now, just be aware a push may be needed in the next couple of weeks.  There's no hard and fast rule - just to extend when you start getting short naps or resistance to settling. 10 mins to sleep would actually have been quite long for both of mine when I got the A time right so she may be telling you she can manage more than you think

What A time are you giving her after her morning nap?  20 mins is super-short - we only got those if in pain, disturbed by noise or super-UT....teeth??

[ellieelmo]

Does she seem well-rested though?

In general through out the day she does yes, but come night times, she's fine until I take her out of the bath then she's really really tired - an accumulation of a day of not enough sleep methinks. 

What A time are you giving her after her morning nap? 

Varies massively as if we're in the pushchair she'll rub her eyes a lot, whine and yawn so I'll recline the chair a bit and put up the muslin so she can't see out and she'll go off to sleep - that could be anything from 2hrs 20mins - 2hrs 45mins (which is why I was doing an A time of around then). On monday she only slept for 35mins in the morning after going down easily ish and then we went out in the pram, I kept the chair up and muslin down until 3hrs 20mins and she went off with more whining than usualy, slept for 2.5hrs but I was pushing her around the whole time. She went down easily that evening but there were still lots of wake ups from uncomfortableness I think - just one NF.

Yesterday she had 4hrs 20mins A time (after another 35mins morning nap) as we were at a group whose timings I got wrong and she was getting really tired towards the end, put her in the pushchair and she was asleep in a minute but only slept for 35mins again.

This morning I pushed her to 3hrs 30mins (though to be honest she's like a duracell bunny in the AM so wasn't showing any tired signs) she went down easier. I saw her stirring on the monitor at 35mins so I've just been in to turn the white noise back on and she seems to have settled back down for a bit more sleep.

The weird thing is her staring blankly into space, which I think is a sleepy sign, always happens when I'm changing her nappy but it's always around 3hrs so I think maybe that's just her starting to associate a nappy change with sleep and quietening? Or maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree and she just likes a moment of calm : /

[ellieelmo]

Agh! Not getting any better over here. Nights she's now up 5? times? Goes down super easily at 7pm but then is up after 30, 45 mins, 1.5 hrs. I resettle with shhhhh pat successfully but by the 4th or so wake up at 23.30 she won't go back down so I feed her and she of course, doesn't  take a proper feed as she's not actually hungry. Then she'll go down for 3hrs and then up for a feed and then down but up for the day at 5.30 / 6am.

She's been having minimum of 3hrs A time; first A time is about 3.15hrs today I pushed her to 3.45 and have been resettling at transition (after 35mins for her) to keep her going a bit longer. If I keep doing this consistently for a week or so will she get used to the longer morning nap? Or does this mean the A time is still not quite right? Today she had 3.45 A time and slept for 1hr 20mins.

The second A time is shorter, around 2.45 / 3hrs as she seems to be really struggling to stay awake, and then is exhausted come bed time, I have to work really hard to keep her going to 3hrs A time before 7pm. And then we have a bad night of wake ups D : 

[becj86]

She's been having minimum of 3hrs A time; first A time is about 3.15hrs today I pushed her to 3.45 and have been resettling at transition (after 35mins for her) to keep her going a bit longer. If I keep doing this consistently for a week or so will she get used to the longer morning nap?

Yes, she will get used to it. How long have you been at 3:45? Did you try 3:30 first?

At one stage around 8 months, my DS did A times of 4hr, 3hr and 2hr - this truly is the age of variation of what suits LO wrt naps. You're right there, if she's really clearly OT, put her down - if she has a short nap, try a bit more A time if she sleeps a long nap, that's a clue as to what might work for her.

[jessmum46]

I agree, maybe a shorter A time before bed will work better for her and prevent those early evening WUs - often they are related to OT x

[ellieelmo]

Yes, she will get used to it. How long have you been at 3:45? Did you try 3:30 first?

Coming on for a week now... at 3.30 she was taking 10mins to go down so figured she could take the extra bit?

I think she can do 4hrs after a good night - last night she did 7pm - 8pm with a NF at 2.30am and no other NW, that was after a last A time of 3.20 so today her first nap was at 4.10 A time and she slept for 2hrs 10. But that meant only 1 nap so I did an early BT of 18.45 but she up now at midnight having a cot party for one / :

[becj86]

Coming on for a week now... at 3.30 she was taking 10mins to go down so figured she could take the extra bit?

Yep, perfectly reasonable then.

She's pretty young for one nap... did you try a catnap in there? EBT works sometimes but it has to be much earlier, not 15min earlier. DYT the cot party is OT or UT?

[ellieelmo]

She's pretty young for one nap... did you try a catnap in there?

Yes, but she wouldn't take it... same happened this week so she's been going down around 6.30pm.

EBT works sometimes but it has to be much earlier, not 15min earlier.

After trying to get her down (giving up at about 5.15) it's too tight to cook dinner, bathe her and get her down much earlier D :

DYT the cot party is OT or UT

It's got to be OT I think. We've had a rough week because dd has had a viral infection, off solids and feeding around the clock, falling asleep at the breast and generally not happy at all. 3.45 A time has been giving me 45-50min naps so thinking I should head back to 3.30 and stick there for a few days? She seems to be coping with a longer A time before bedtime but then we do have a disrupted night but then she is waking at a much more reasonable 6.20am.