13 months standard EASY routine?

[JCN]

My lo just turned 15 months but has been doing one nap since about 7/8 months old! We just pushed out the morning A time as much as we could to get to a decent morning nap time and he would nap let's say 11-1 or 1130-130 then we just did ebt around 630 sometimes 6! And he would wake in morning around 6. But it was worth it to have one good long nap. Not every lo can deal with the long A times though.  Now at 15 months he wakes around 7 sometimes earlier naps from 12-2 on average can be longer of an A time or longer than 2 hour nap and is in bed by 7/730. Every lo is different but that's our easy hope it's helpful

Thank you - that’s helpful to see someone else’s routine.

I just can’t figure out what Nap he needs at the minute and it’s driving me nuts!

[creations]

This is prime teething time so if there are restless nights or long NWs you might consider trying some pain meds before BT and see if it helps at all.

Your instinct seems to indicate he needs a little more A time before that nap, and you can be right. He cried for 10 mins which could be interpreted as UT and trying to tell you he is not ready yet, he slept for an hour but then needed more sleep than that (held before he was properly finished sleeping).
How about Add another 15 mins and see if how it goes? Short naps and being put down UT do cause crying and then end up leading to being OT for the night sleep which can cause issues there.
It is also a good time to move to set nap time but depending how consistent his morning WU time is I'm not sure to suggest 11.45 or 12.00 - you probably have a better idea of this..or go on the A time for this week and look to set the nap time after that.

Sorry you had a rough night - 12 - 24 months was the worst year for me in terms of routine etc so I can totally sympathise with the level of frustration and exhaustion xx It really does get better though, this is a phase and eventually it looks like a short phase in the scheme of things, it just feels horrible going through it.

[JCN]

Thanks - he is a bit dribbly at the moment but his cries at night aren’t his normal pained/poorly cries, more just angry and frustrated. But I might try some meds tonight!

So far, our day has panned out like this:

WU 5:40
S 11:15 - 12:40 (fell asleep in car on way home from soft play, woke getting out car so held to sleep and transferred to cot at home)

But he woke up still tired - very grizzly, crying, rubbing eyes and has thrown most of his lunch on the floor....

I did try a CN this afternoon but this very rarely works for us, and today was no exception- I tried twice, half an hour apart, as he was behaving tired but he kicked up such a fuss I could tell he wasn’t going settle and gave up pretty quickly.

So, I then went for an EBT of 6:00pm. When I tried to give him his BT milk he only drank half before pushing the bottle away (which seems to be a common theme with his poor sleep patterns atvthe minute)  and then cried when I put him in his cot. He then spent 15mins tossing, turning, sitting up and lying down  and crying and then woke again moaning and crawling around an hour later. Luckily he self settled but that was 10mins ago and i don’t hold out much hope for the rest of the night.

Edit:
NWs-
11:00pm
2:30am

WU 5:15

I’m at my wits end. I feel like I’m doing him a disservice because I can’t get his routine right. I’m shattered because he won’t sleep at night - this means I’m struggling at work, and nownmy marriage is starting to suffer.
I’ve had enough. I’ve had 13 months and not once has he slept well, never mind STTN.
I just don’t know where I’m gojng wrong.

[Murdock]

I feel your pain - my 12 month old is exactly the same and I've never managed to get him any decent night time sleep.

I've no advice I'm afraid but... this is my second (you'd think I'd do better job this time round!) and they do get there...it will sort itself out somehow / sometime. And you will get some sleep again 

I know it doesn't really help when you're in the thick of it and can't function - but I keep reminding myself of that - it will get better.

Take care of yourself.

[JCN]

I feel your pain - my 12 month old is exactly the same and I've never managed to get him any decent night time sleep.

I've no advice I'm afraid but... this is my second (you'd think I'd do better job this time round!) and they do get there...it will sort itself out somehow / sometime. And you will get some sleep again 

I know it doesn't really help when you're in the thick of it and can't function - but I keep reminding myself of that - it will get better.

Take care of yourself.

Thank you for your kind words and for bothering to post xx

[creations]

Thanks Murdoch for paying it forward
It's true - it gets better, feels so terribly hard at the time though.

JCN I think try the meds before BT.  Pain can sometimes be a low level niggle that's just enough to prevent sleep and cause huge frustration rather than all-out agony.  Some LOs teeth badly too. Mine teethed almost the entire of that year I was so fed up of it. I remember thinking it would never stop. Then one day it stopped, I had a blissful 3 nights of him not being disturbed by teething pain after his canines finished coming through, and then the next night the molars started. Argghh!

It might also be time to just implement a later nap and set it.  As I said above, pick a time you feel is right, with an increased A time and just go for it.  I  know you didn't have a chance yet to try this, and anyway it takes a while to settle in.

I feel like I’m doing him a disservice because I can’t get his routine right.

This isn't your fault honey. this is babies. They are hard work and at times they are super hard work. it's exhausting and frustrating.
Do try to get some rest too. A couple of EBTs for yourself could really help with your own level of tiredness.  it might seem impossible to go to bed the same time as LO but do it one or two nights and you could well feel the benefits.
lots of hugs x

[JCN]

Thank you for such a supportive reply.

I did go to bed not long after LO last night but I was so worried about this whole mess that I couldn’t  switch off.

So today, after a 5:15 WU, he napped 11:00-12:20.
I wasn’t sure whether to put him down at 11:00 because he didn’t seem very tired, but I figured he’d been up a looong time so did it anyway, he kept sitting up and took 5mins sssh/pay for him to settle to sleep. When he woke, I tried to resettle him again but he was having none of it. He demolished his lunch when u got him up so perhaps he was hungry - but I did give him a big snack at 10:30 to try and avoid this.

I, again, will consider a CN this pm but I think we’ll be looking at our usual EBT. If he managed 6 hours A time this morning should I do 6 hours to EBT, I.e 6:30?

I’m also unsure whether 11:00 is working? What do you think? Because of EWU he’s awake for 6 hours by that point so I worry about pushing it further, but I almost feel like he needs an earlier lunch and then a slightly later nap. But I’m not sure how to Time it all.
If he was getting up at 6:00 like he used to then I’d have no qualms trying an 11:30 lunch and a 12:00 Nap, but from an EWU of 5-5:30 this seems a long time.

I’m also aware that the clocks go back this weekend and will probably throw it all anyway!
Sorry for all the questions and ramblings. Your advice is much appreciated.

[creations]

I’m also aware that the clocks go back this weekend and will probably throw it all anyway!

Did you have to remind me of that!?? (good job you did - I forgot and I need to shift my DS over at least 2 nights!)
Back to you - hmm..so the EW at 5am is going to become 4am which is just awful to think of. I had exactly that with my DS so I know the fear of the early morning getting even earlier.
I would start shifting now to be honest.  You do what you feel/think is right but this is what I'd do:
Fri nap 11.30 regardless of WU time
Sat nap 11.45 regardless of WU time
Sun nap at 11.00 new time (12.00 old time)
Stick at 11am new time for a few days (as this is 12 noon old time so he will have shifted an hour and will need time to adapt)
After a few days we can look at what the WU time has ended up at, how the naps are settling and where to go from there.  If he adapts quickly I suspect that you will need to move the nap time later again (ie picking up the tweaks where we've left off with thoughts of moving from 11 towards 11.30 or even 12 new time).

I would be trying to get 3 cycles out of him so a 2hr nap rather than 1hr 20.  Mine also did 40 min cycles and I worked to make him learn to take the full 2hrs, he did in the end and it was worth it both for his rest and mood and for my own rest, having a 2hr Y time is lovely.

With the clock changes don't forget to shift *everything* in the routine by the same amount of time you are moving the nap each day. You need to shift all meal and snack times, BT too.  Maybe write it down next to the day of the week so that you know the whole routine for the day that's what I always did when my DS was younger (or I would have been terribly lost).

With regards to meals, a lunch type snack is a great idea for a few days so a sandwich or whatever you tend to do for lunch rather than just fruit or whatever you tend to do for snack.  Then we can review where the meals are sitting once the time change has settled down a bit.



I hope this helps.

Because of EWU he’s awake for 6 hours by that point so I worry about pushing it further

Just a note on this. I know you are worried to push further but with EW you would likely need to go further anyway. Add in to that the clock change and you have double need to move the nap later.  Try not to worry. You are doing all of this so that he is awake at the right time of day (not 4am) and so that he naps well, you are not doing it because you are a mean mum.  it's also pretty important to you to get him into a reasonable routine because a tired mummy isn't the best mummy, don't feel guilty for not wanting a 4 or 5am WU time, you need sleep too x

[JCN]

Thank you- just to have a plan in place for a couple of days makes me feel a bit  better about things. I will follow your suggestions for shifting his nap for over the clock change- I have even written each day out on paper; shifting everything forward slightly today and then back 15mins for the following 2 days- although I have had to switch where lunch falls on different days,  because it’s a midday nap. How did you “work” on learning to nap for longer? My LO is impossible to resettle 99% of the time. What BT do you suggested on these transition days? 5hours A time from his nap WU? 6 hours A time from nap WU? A set time regardless? Sorry to need it spelling out like an idiot- We’re still getting lots of NWs and I feel like I’m still not doing something right!

Yesterday ended like this and we had lots of NWs (mostly very brief and some a little longer)
WU 5:15
S 11:00-12:20
BT 6:00pm - drank a full bottle which he hasn’t done for a long time whilst pattern has been a mess and settled off to sleep very quickly. I felt like BT had been perfectly timed. But then the NWs happened...
NWs:
9:15pm
10:00pm
11:15pm
12:30am
12:50am
3:00am
4:30am - gave up trying to resettle at 4:50 because he was clearly not going to settle and put him in bed with me but he didn’t go back to sleep - I know from experience that his average is approx 10 ON sleep but he used to doze on/off for another 30-60mins in the bed with us, (an extremely bad habit I know but needs must on bad days!) but this hasn’t been helping lately and didn’t work this morning. I gave up at 5:30.

So, essentially, 4:30 was his WU. Which, I’m not going to lie, brought me to tears this morning. Not least because I’m exhausted. But because I think it’s going to be very difficult to get him to an 11:30 Nap time from that EW. 7:30 and I’ve already caught him yawning!

[creations]

Oh I'm so sorry to hear you were in tears today hugs. this is a horrible transition, the broken nights and EWs are just exhausting and I'm not surprised it's getting you down.

There's another option here - after such an EW and him already tired you could go for 2 naps just today. It doesn't matter today if it results in a very late BT because that could help to shift the night along (later BT, later WU) which could help with the clock change.  If you wanted you could offer a nap earlier, maybe just one sleep cycle of 40 mins, then give a long A time and another nap.  It's a bit "out there" and I can't tell you exactly what times to try, I'd be guessing as much as you, but it's something to consider today.

Otherwise, go with your plan, give him an extra snack and bring out something new to interest him or go into a room you don't often take him too (let him pull all you socks out the draw or bring out some non-breakable kitchen equipment, I have a balloon whisk, wooden lemon juicer, measuring spoons, sieve - all things my DS would like to explore) to help get through that long A time to nap. Watch some TV together if necessary. Whatever you need to do to keep him awake until nap time.
Then I think 5hrs A to bed.

How did you “work” on learning to nap for longer?

I used W2S mostly or resettled.
I altered A time (at some point I needed to extend it to get the 2hr instead of 1hr 20 and a grumpy DS) although this was probably later when he was older.
During the worst time of our 2-1 nap drop I stayed upstairs with my DS holding him whilst he screamed his head off, telling him he needed to sleep (he wanted up) until he eventually went back to sleep. It was pretty horrible.
I remember one day a friend of mine was visiting, she arrived much later than she had said she would and had totally missed DS's awake time. When she arrived he was in bed, then he woke (too early) and I went up to him. I stayed up there pacing with him in my arms screaming until he went back to sleep. When I arrived back downstairs my friend was upset I hadn't brought him down as she wanted to see him. She didn't agree with me putting him back to sleep when he had wanted to get up. Tough. Honestly, my DS needed to be told to go to sleep, it wasn't pretty but he really did need it.
Another time during our 2-1 he was only sleeping 20 mins at a time.  I discovered if I timed things well I could go in at 19 mins put a hand on him and use a key phrase to see him through the OT waking, then I could leave the room at 21 mins. And again go in at 19 mins stay until 21. All the way through 2 hrs nap.  It was hard in the sense that I had to go in so many times but in comparison to him screaming blue murder it felt like a breeze, he was calm, I was calm, he got the sleep and it taught him to stay asleep for 2hrs.  He had done 2hr naps before the 2-1 so I was confident he needed the 2hrs, 2 sleep cycles, and just had to keep going until he got it.
Believe me - I have had my times of tears too. It's totally understandable when they are disturbed so much in the night and then they are up at 4 or 5 am and all we can see is this looooong day of parenting ahead with all their moods, all the meals to prep, the cleaning up, trying to get them to nap, and on and on and on. There appears to be no end to it. I know xxx

[JCN]

Otherwise, go with your plan, give him an extra snack and bring out something new to interest him or go into a room you don't often take him too (let him pull all you socks out the draw or bring out some non-breakable kitchen equipment, I have a balloon whisk, wooden lemon juicer, measuring spoons, sieve - all things my DS would like to explore) to help get through that long A time to nap. Watch some TV together if necessary. Whatever you need to do to keep him awake until nap time.
Then I think 5hrs A to bed.

So, DS started to get crabby around 10:00 and I did consider the 2 nap plan, but i managed to distract him with kitchen utensils (a good favourite of mine!) and then he had his lunch at 11:00 - he ate alot more than I thought so hopefully has a nice full tummy. I put him down at 11:30, no fuss, and planned to be close to his room to resettle quickly when/if he wakes early. I've tried W2S before and my DS always seems to be too disturbed, so hoped to ssh/pat resettle but much quicker to respond to him stirring by staying close by and not letting him get to crying point before i've made it to his room. However, after 1hour 10 mins (his usual nap length for AM nap on a 2 Nap schedule), he began to stir, wouldn’t resettle, began standing and crying etc. I decided to pick him up before he got too worked up and kind of hoped he just wanted a cuddle but he kicked up a fuss when I held him too. After a bit of pacing around bouncing him like a newborn he fell back to sleep within a couple of mins. Every time I tried to put him down he stirred and started to cry so I stayed holdingnhim and he woke up of his own accord at 1:30pm.
I need him to be able to nap 2 hours independently though because he’s in child care 3 days per week and they can’t support him to extend.


Thank you so much for all of your advice - i'm finding it really helpful. I just have a couple more questions and then i'll leave you alone and persist for a few days by myself!

So, the day  ended up like this:
WU 4:30
S 11:30-12:40 (independent) 12:40-1:30 (held)
BT 18:30
NWs: 2:30, 3:50
WU 5:15


My only one last and final question (or two ) goes back to bed time...

I know you said 5 hours A time, which seemed to be about right for the above routine, so providing he naps for 2 hours this is 6:45 the following night, then dropping back to 6:00 on Sunday (tomorrow) because of the clock change-I imagine this will lead to 4:30 WUs again but I will have to grin and bear it for a few days and then start to edge the nap back 15mins every 1-2 days until EWs stop. I assume thats the right approach?

Anyway, I digress - my point is, what do I do about BT if he *doesnt* nap for 2 hours? I've been here before with extending naps (I spent a long time on these forums getting him to extend from 40 mins naps to 1h 20) and he is literally impossible to resettle sometimes and after 15/20mins I tend to get him up. Plus, as mentioned, if child care can’t get him to nap for 2hrs...In these circumstances, do I still do 5hours A time, even if this potentially means a VERY early BT of 5:30 once the clocks change..... - which would probably mean hes up at 4am and we hit a vicious circle. Or do I stick to a set BT of what it *should*  have been had he had 2 hours?
Does that even make sense?
My tiredness is making me babble!

[creations]

It's ok you make sense.
Generally the advice at this age and on one nap is a set nap time and set BT.  You are in the middle of shifting the routine so of course things are not quite "set" yet, but with "set" you work out what is roughly right even if LO isn't doing it and then stick to it.
A set BT could lead to difficulties (like being OT at BT) but it could also help to extend the nap in the way that making a nap later can help with EWs. Hope that makes sense.

Honestly I think you did great to be able to get him back to sleep for the rest of that 2hr nap even though it was in arms. I do think you could work on that to get the whole thing in the cot.
Whether or not he does that at day care is a totally different story. Some LOs are on a great routine with well established long naps and then start day care and refuse to sleep more than 40 mins...so you just have to see how things go.
We can try to offer advice and support here for whatever happens - although I'm not saying I have all the answers!

Tonight mine has to stay up 30 min later than usual and he has already asked to go to bed a dozen times - that's set BTs for you!!  My DS takes "set" very seriously!

[JCN]

Thank you. A set BT (once routine has shifted and been tweaked after the clock change) is what my instinct told me.

Just for reference, yesterday looked like this:

WU 5:15
S 11:45-1:30 (resettled in cot at 1:05)
BT 6:40pm (tried my best to push it to the 6:45 that was planned, but he was shattered and grizzly so we had to cut bath time slightly short)
 He then woke 3 times in the night before WU @ 4:00 new time! I could have cried. I spent 45mins pacing and rocking him while he dozed before he finally fell asleep enough for me to put him down, then he woke at 5:30 new time, this morning.

I will have to stick to an 11am nap and a 6pm BT for a couple of days but I know this will result in very EWs so I’m keen to start shifting it all asap.
As I may have mentioned previously, his average is about 10hours ON, with 2-3 NWs, which unfortunately doesn’t fit well with a one nap routine lol.
I think my best bet is to aim for:

WU 5:00-6:00
S 12-2
BT 7

But that a very long am A time, if he has an EW. But judging on this week, 5 Hours A time to BT is about his limit. Maybe I should aim for nap 11:30-1:30 to even out the A times, but then he’d likely be OT for bed.

[creations]

I will have to stick to an 11am nap and a 6pm BT for a couple of days but I know this will result in very EWs so I’m keen to start shifting it all asap.

I agree that shifting asap is a good idea.  When I've had times of a rocky routine and also clock changes I find it better to shift in steps but rapid ones, even pushing to OT because then the OT at some point makes him sleep properly/longer and from there we can settle down into a comfortable routine without daily OT build up - if that makes sense.  Thre's no point getting "comfortable" with a routine where he is waking at 4 or 5 and then trying to gently draw it out, just keep pushing until the WU is reasonable.

WU @ 4:00 new time! I could have cried. I spent 45mins pacing and rocking him while he dozed before he finally fell asleep enough for me to put him down, then he woke at 5:30 new time, this morning.

You did brilliantly!!! 5.30 new time is 6.30 old time so it is not so bad really - this is why I'd keep going on the routine shift so that you keep him moving now whilst the routine is already unsettled.  you did so so well to get him back to sleep at 4am

 

As I may have mentioned previously, his average is about 10hours ON,

Yes and it's good to keep this in mind and not to give him a BT which then expects a 14 hr night - but when he settles into the new routine you could well see this over night sleep lengthen.  I've seen threads with the nap drop and after a few weeks the night extends longer than LO has been able to do before. It might end up more like 10.5 or 11hrs. You never know.

But that a very long am A time, if he has an EW. But judging on this week, 5 Hours A time to BT is about his limit. Maybe I should aim for nap 11:30-1:30 to even out the A times, but then he’d likely be OT for bed.

There's no need to have even A times. My DS needed a very long morning A time and much shorter before BT.  One of the routines we had for a good while when he was older than your LO was:
WU 6
S 2 - 4 (set, solid 2hr nap)
BT 8 (set)
So that's 8hrs morning A time, and only 4hrs afternoon A time with 10hrs over night (we might have had 10.5 or 11hrs overnight when I was lucky)
It looks like your Lo needs a good long morning A, set nap, and a shorter A to bed (set).  it might be 5hrs that you are pushing towards now but when the nap moves later you might find he's better on 4.5hrs say...it's just that whilst you are trying to shift the routine you might need to aim towards that 5hr mark because otherwise everything comes too early in the day.

I also remember mine needing a longer A time to get back to his 2hr nap when it was falling short at 1hr 20.  All the signs looked like OT especially as he had a long morning A time but one person here suggested UT and a later nap and that was the trick for us.  The over tiredness was coming from his nap being too early and therefore too short.  That's why over time the nap moved later and later to keep him napping well.

That might be a bit garbled. sorry 

[JCN]

That’s great - thank you so much for all of your help.

Stuck to routine with a 6:00 BT last night and he was awake every hour in the night from 9pm & I was unable to resettle him afterv4:00.

Going to push nap back 15mins per day until we get to 12:00, rather than 11:00, and hope that helps.

If it doesn’t make a difference to NWs or EWU I’m sure I’ll be back