9mo A time; have I done it all wrong?!

[ellieelmo]

Hi everyone,

I am in need of some help with A times for my dd. I have had two other threads on here when dd was younger but now she's a bit older it seemed better to start a new one. I've managed to solve (thanks to the support I received here!) some of the bigger issues but I am still reallly struggling with her A times!

Can anyone post their A times that are really different to the general averages?

The last few days have been really mostly a miss in terms of sleep. She's done a 4.45 A time and slept 1hr 15 and then the next day a 4.30A time and slept 35mins waking very upset. It dawned on me today that perhaps I am keeping her up waaaaay too long as in, I'm missing the sleep window. Then inadvertently waiting an hour for the next one to come around which I'm mistaking for the first?!

I'm just clueless as to what A time to go with  She shows little or no (I don't think) sleepy cues apart from at like A 2hrs (eye rubbing and yawning) which I know is not an appropriate A time so I just scale back activities rather than try for a nap.

She falls asleep independently with ssshhh pat and white noise, I sing her to drowsy in my arms for naps.

At night I sing her to drowsy after a feed and put her down awake. She is waking ~3 times per night, midnight, 2am (BF) 4.30am. Then up for the day at 5.30am and into bed with us. She goes down at 7pm. She sleeps in her own cot otherwise. I settle her with shhh pat as much as possible but sometimes she's so OT and worked up that BF is the only thing that calms her.

I guess I'm asking for a little guidance on what A time I should be doing, as the guidelines seem way out for LO, she's low sleep needs anyway I think. If I put her down after 4hrs she'll play around her cot practice standing and then get bored and lonely and start to cry.

 I just feel so defeated as her A times seem to change every couple of days and it seems impossible for me to read her and get her solid blocks of sleep.

Today I did an A time of 4.30hrs and got a 35 min unhappy nap and then an A time of 3.30 and got a 20min unhappy nap so
I APOPed and slept for 40mins. She can only do 2hrs A time at the end of the day because the days are usually so rubbish.

Thank you in advance!

[creations]

Hi there
Am I right in thinking she settled down on an A time of around 3hr 45 to 4hr when she was 7 months?

My DS generally needed a very long first A time of the day but shorter after.

Could you post your EASY from yesterday please so that I can see what times she's up for the day and where the two naps are etc.

Also, do you have any particular activities you go to such as baby/toddler groups or swimming etc on certain days? These can significantly alter A times as LO can be more tired or more stimulated.  Have you noticed her naps or A time being different on any day you have that sort of activity?

[ellieelmo]

Hiya,

Thank you for the quick response.

Am I right in thinking she settled down on an A time of around 3hr 45 to 4hr when she was 7 months?

Yes she did but really not consistently at all. Also we have only been having the morning nap at home, lunch at home and then usually pushchair for the next nap after a group.

Also, do you have any particular activities you go to such as baby/toddler groups or swimming etc on certain days? These can significantly alter A times as LO can be more tired or more stimulated.  Have you noticed her naps or A time being different on any day you have that sort of activity?

Hmmmm we don't have any set activities really as it all depends on her sleep tbh. I do try to go to a group on tuesday mornings and thursday mornings or afternoons. Other than that we are at home half days and then just run errands or go to an exhibition or the park in the afternoon. I've been determined to have 1 nap at home per day - in the hope that she'll have a good un at least once a day!

Here's yesterday's EAS. Today has been a bit off as we were out all day; I had a KIT day at work so Granny had baby, in London town all day so sleep was not easy to get. So thinking tonight might be rough.

WU 6.40am / BF
7.30am Breakfast
BF 10.30am
A 4.50hrs
S 11.30 - 11.55 25mins - cried before going down so this was I think deffo OT? I did plan to go in at 35mins to be ready to pat her at transition but she'd woken already.

A 3.40hrs
1pm Lunch 
S 3.37 - 3.57 20 mins - went down very easily
BF fell asleep at breast, put her back down;
S 4.07 - 4.47

A 2.10hrs
5.30pm dinner
6.15 bath
6.45 final BF
7pm laid in cot awake
S 7pm - 1.50am resettled at midnight with sssh pat and white noise (this is a rare long stretch! have been getting one of these once per week lately, when she has a final A time of 2hrs or a nice long 1.5hr nap in the day)

BF
S 2am - 4.10am tried to settle with shhhh pat, no dice, brought her into bed with us, hugged her and stroked her head and she fell asleep after a while and quite a bit of OT crying.

S 4.50am - 6.50am

Thank you for your thoughts.

[creations]

I do try to go to a group on tuesday mornings and thursday mornings or afternoons. Other than that we are at home half days and then just run errands or go to an exhibition or the park in the afternoon. I've been determined to have 1 nap at home per day - in the hope that she'll have a good un at least once a day!

I'm not sure how regular her week is if you go to a couple of morning activities but mostly stay home in the morning and go out in the afternoon.  If there is any way to make every day more consistent you might find this suits her better. some LO are really flexible and will enjoy the groups and move their nap time or take a shorter/longer nap as needed but some get totally thrown by even one day of inconsistency in the sleep routine which then takes several days to recover from...and by the time they are recovered they have another inconsistent day which throws them off again.
It's great to get out to groups of course but perhaps there are some groups in the afternoon you could attend instead??

This is just a guess really but based on the A time at 7 months and what you've observed with the longer A times now at 9 months I would probably try a first A of 4hr 15 and just stick with it for a week.  Try to get a good nap there at home and then the rest of the day would hopefully be easier with slightly shorter second A and shortest last A before BT.  What do you think?

I noticed that you said she sometimes has sleepy cues at 2hrs, I agree that these are unlikely to be true tiredness if it's in the morning as you know she needs a longer A time than that then.  I'm not convinced that scaling back on activity is always the best thing though - maybe experiment a little with this because some LOs like and need something more interesting or active to tire them. A higher level stimulation or higher physical activity can help to make them ready for sleep at an earlier A time so for instance instead of 4hr 50 A time you go for 4hr 15 A time but with some additional physical/mental activity thrown in.
Often us parents are so concerned about OS (over stimulation) that we can forget LOs will refuse a nap if they are US (under stimulated) in much the same way there is often a tendency to focus on avoiding OT and forgetting UT.

I notice on your EASY there seemed to be no BF at around 2.30pm (4hrs since previous milk E) and you ended up BF mid nap.
Have you already dropped a milk feed in the day?  She's rather young to have dropped a day time milk especially if she still needs it mid nap or night feeds too.  I would try to get that milk E back into the routine for another month or two (or longer) to be honest.
Possibly something like:
WU 6.45
E 6.45 milk
E 7.45 breakfast
E 10.45 milk
A 4hr 15
S 11.00 - 12.30
E 12.30 lunch
E 2.45 milk
A 3hr 45 (or shorter if she will accept a nap earlier)
S 4.15 - 5 (45 min CN)
E 5.00 dinner
A 2hr
E 6.30 milk
BT 7.00

Sorry, no clear answers, mainly just some ideas to think about.

[ellieelmo]

It's great to get out to groups of course but perhaps there are some groups in the afternoon you could attend instead??

There's relatively little in my corner of London but I'll have a look see if there's something I've missed. She'll be going to nursery at the beginning of December 3 days a week (in prep for full time in January when I'm back at work) so hopefully this will give her that structure that I can stick to on the other days. We do have our own 'routine' of activities at home, a time to read, a time to chase one another, a time to be downstairs cooking etc. so that is hopefully helping with regulating her day!

This is just a guess really but based on the A time at 7 months and what you've observed with the longer A times now at 9 months I would probably try a first A of 4hr 15 and just stick with it for a week.  Try to get a good nap there at home and then the rest of the day would hopefully be easier with slightly shorter second A and shortest last A before BT.  What do you think?

Hmmmm... tried this today at 4.15, she went down easily enough but then only slept for 35mins. I was poised to pat her at transition but she woke up fully instead. Would you recommend I still stick there for a week I guess in case today was a one off...? She then had A 3.35 and slept for 45mins waking at 4pm so I she's gone down for BT early.

A higher level stimulation or higher physical activity can help to make them ready for sleep at an earlier A time so for instance instead of 4hr 50 A time you go for 4hr 15 A time but with some additional physical/mental activity thrown in.

She does need a shorter A time when she's been practising crawling or chasing a toy, yes, I guess I just worry that she'll get too OS and have trouble calming down - I had this a lot when she was around 4/5 months and she'd startle an awful lot whilst trying to drop off.

I notice on your EASY there seemed to be no BF at around 2.30pm (4hrs since previous milk E) and you ended up BF mid nap.

She often refuses this feed... Either because we're out at a group and perhaps its too exciting for her and she can't concentrate on feeding or she's in the pushchair and I offer her water instead, which she does almost always take. She eats really really well in the day - she's a very enthusiastic eater and has been from the off, she seems to really enjoy eating and milk less so. I'll make more of an effort though to make sure she gets a feed at that point, especially as you say she did feed mid sleep.

Sorry, no clear answers, mainly just some ideas to think abou

Not at all! Its so hard trying to get this right, but I am so appreciative of the help this community has given me so thank you.

[creations]

There's relatively little in my corner of London but I'll have a look see if there's something I've missed. She'll be going to nursery at the beginning of December 3 days a week (in prep for full time in January when I'm back at work) so hopefully this will give her that structure that I can stick to on the other days. We do have our own 'routine' of activities at home, a time to read, a time to chase one another, a time to be downstairs cooking etc. so that is hopefully helping with regulating her day!

Structure at home is great, I was thinking more about her knowing when she's going out and when she's staying home so that she could get into a rhythm with her naps really. Starting nursery will change everything...a hurdle to cross when you come to it really, she'll probably be more tired.

tried this today at 4.15, she went down easily enough but then only slept for 35mins. I was poised to pat her at transition but she woke up fully instead. Would you recommend I still stick there for a week I guess in case today was a one off...?

I'd prob stick with it at least a few more days.  Really try to get her back to sleep for that one.
And try some physical activity in the morning, if you are not at a group for the added stimulation then perhaps some extra floor activities at home to get her crawling around.

She often refuses this feed... Either because we're out at a group and perhaps its too exciting for her and she can't concentrate on feeding or she's in the pushchair and I offer her water instead, which she does almost always take.

OK. It's a bit early to be dropping a milk feed but if she often refuses it or you are offering water instead because you are out then how about putting in a solids snack where that milk would be?  Some thing like a couple of fingers of cheese, or a sugar free natural yoghurt?  Maybe a cracker or s mini sugar free pancake?  Plus the water of course.

Obviously  you just need one good nap in the day.  Up to here I've been thinking first nap long but you might want to consider what her routine might be at nursery, do they offer a nap? At what time?  Or if it's half days would she stay awake and then nap at home after pick up?  it's possible she'd do better on a small CN in the morning and a longer afternoon nap - just thoughts.

[ellieelmo]

I was thinking more about her knowing when she's going out and when she's staying home so that she could get into a rhythm with her naps really.

Ah ok, I see!

I'd prob stick with it at least a few more days.  Really try to get her back to sleep for that one.

Well today was interesting... we had a really rough night, she was up for about 2hrs from midnight just crying and nothing would calm her - really didn't know what it was. I eventually offered the breast and she took it. But was up twice more. Then at A 3hrs during breakfast this morning she was getting quite vocal which can be a tired sign for her, so I did a quick nappy change and thought I'd try for a nap; she slept for 1hr25mins, but again don't think that was a true A time, thinking that was just extra tiredness because of last night's awakenings.

Then she wouldn't sleep again until A 4hrs and slept for 45mins.

But yes, I will aim to stick with it this weekend for sure.

how about putting in a solids snack where that milk would be? 

Definitely will do. She has cut down on her feeds hugely and I definitely feel my supply is dropping D : which I'm really sad about!

you might want to consider what her routine might be at nursery, do they offer a nap?

Nursery have said they follow her routine rather than set one (though I can't really believe that as it'd be a nightmare for them!) She'll be going full days; 8am - 6pm. How would I implement a switch around of CN in the AM and then longer nap in the afternoon? Or do I just facilitate sleep based on her cues and hope she will regulate that herself in time?

Thank you for the suggestions.

[creations]

we had a really rough night, she was up for about 2hrs from midnight just crying and nothing would calm her - really didn't know what it was. I eventually offered the breast and she took it. But was up twice more.

Could be teething?

at A 3hrs during breakfast this morning she was getting quite vocal which can be a tired sign for her, so I did a quick nappy change and thought I'd try for a nap; she slept for 1hr25mins,

Is it possible she prefers a very short first A time perhaps?  You previously said you saw some sleep cues at 2hrs and generally I'd agree that this is not a usual time for a nap at this age and more likely needs a change of scene or activity, but if she was to sleep well after a short A time in the morning (without it causing early morning WU) then really there's nothing wrong with that. if it works then it works.
Sorry that's probably confused you but LOs are all so different and really if you can find a routine where she settles well then it really doesn't matter if it is "normal" or not does it?

 

How would I implement a switch around of CN in the AM and then longer nap in the afternoon?

When LOs consistently refuse the afternoon nap (or just won't take a long morning nap) some people find it helpful to cap the first nap, literally just time a CN and wake LO up.  This might be after a shorter A time (which could suit your LO if she is tired at 2 or 3 hrs in the morning).  Then there is time in the day to offer a much longer second A time and LO is more likely to accept the afternoon nap which is then the long nap.

Maybe see how the next few days go and reassess. If she is still showing tired signs after a shorter A time it could be that she'd do better on short A with short nap or will do a short A and long nap.

[ellieelmo]

Could be teething?

Could be... but I had the feeling it was just OTness and she couldn't get past it to actually fall asleep.

Is it possible she prefers a very short first A time perhaps?  You previously said you saw some sleep cues at 2hrs and generally I'd agree that this is not a usual time for a nap at this age and more likely needs a change of scene or activity, but if she was to sleep well after a short A time in the morning (without it causing early morning WU) then really there's nothing wrong with that. if it works then it works.
Sorry that's probably confused you but LOs are all so different and really if you can find a routine where she settles well then it really doesn't matter if it is "normal" or not does it?

Possibly?! This is why I was so confused because all the mums I've met have said their babies can only do 2hrs in the AM max! Yes of course if it works I'd go with it I just can't seem to find anything that does work D : Not seen any impact on early morning WUs yet so think we're ok for the moment!

When LOs consistently refuse the afternoon nap (or just won't take a long morning nap) some people find it helpful to cap the first nap, literally just time a CN and wake LO up.

Ah ok.

Maybe see how the next few days go and reassess.

Yes will do, today she went down at 4hrs (again showed tired signs early) but then only slept for 35mins (I think with was OT, she had a really active morning), resettled and slept for 1hr40mins. Will keep options open for the next few days as she might be coming down with something (I'm ill) or teeth.

[creations]

Sorry for the delay in replying (my internet went off for a couple of days) and sorry to hear you are poorly.
Hopefully LO is well and you are recovering x

How are things going?

[ellieelmo]

Not at all, I'm sure you have your own things going on! Thank you for checking up on us.

Hmm... we're about the same; 4.15hrs first thing is still giving me a 35min nap, as is 4hrs but have been sticking with it consistently to try and get a true reading. Also, nights are a bit better so am thinking a few more good nights might help that morning nap? I still can't tell if she's OT or UT waking after 35mins D:

Dd did get the cold I had and still has it hanging around a bit. She's been going down fine after a final A time of 2hrs - 3.5hrs, the latter if she refuses a final nap as she did today.

Today's EAS

WU 6am
BF
Breakfast
A 4.15
BF
S 10.15 - 10.50am
BF

A 2.40
Lunch
S 1.30 - 2.30pm (fell asleep in pushchair en route to a playdate)
BF

A 3.45hrs tried for a 20min nap at 4.30pm but no dice so went for an earlier bedtime.
Dinner
Final BF
S 6.15 -

Let's see how tonight goes, I've a suspicion it'll be a bit disturbed as that last A time is a bit too much for her. She's been doing a 10hr night with one NF at 1/2am. She has been waking up around 9pm or 11pm ish still but I am able to get her back with just a bit of shhhh pat.

[creations]

I still can't tell if she's OT or UT waking after 35mins D:

hard to tell isn't it?
It's hard to imagine her being OT on it though if she was doing 4hrs at 7 months.

Maybe things will become clearer over the next few days.