Crying before every sleep - 7m

[Melian Gray]

Hello BW community, I need some help with DS crying before all his sleeps!

My DS is a 7 months old textbook/touchy and has been on EASY since day 1. From the beginning he has tended to cry quite often before going to sleep (hence the touchy part), but he does sometimes manage the whole sleep routine without crying and it is beautiful. Recently, however, he has just been crying and screaming non stop before all of his sleeps. He starts crying once I have started his nap routine, usually after we've said goodbye to the sun and we're having 5 minutes of sitting on my lap quietly. If not then, then he usually starts crying once I've put him in his bed.

PUPD quite often does not help at all -  it just goes from crying on my shoulder for 2-3 min (as per the 6 to 8 month pupd recommendation) to screaming when I put him down on his bed, then I pick him up, repeat. This can go on for anything up to 2h30min....! I don't think I'm doing any of the dirty dozen reasons why pupd doesn't work...
The problem is that I am starting to cave in and eventually feed him when he cries for so long. Worst is he's out within 5 minutes if I do feed him...! It's an incredibly slippery slope which I really really don't want to go down. He doesn't take a pacifier but he does have a texture blanket with taglets that sometimes helps him to go to sleep. His mobility has increased over the last 6 weeks, but he starts to cry before he's even in his bed so not sure that has anything to do with it. He usually falls asleep completely on his own better than if I have my hand on him, so sometimes I really don't know what to do for him to help him fall asleep when he can't settle himself (other than pupd which as I said earlier sometimes doesn't work)!

Any advice will be hugely appreciated.... His paed even put him on an iron supplement as he thought it would help him go to sleep.

Other potentially relevant info:

- He has never done the full quota of sleep during the day. At the moment I usually manage one long sleep and one short, or three short sleeps (last one a CN of about 15min - otherwise he only goes to bed at 8.30pm). I have spent hours doing pupd and w2s (and LOTS of shpt before 6 months) to extend naps. He does what seems like an angry cry but then stops crying the instant I open the curtains or the door... 
 
- Yes, he is probably teething (I can see the top two coming down), but he's going to be teething til he is two!

- Typical EASY (which starts either 6.30 or 7, depending on when he wakes up) :
E bf 6.30am or 7am,  breakfast 1hr later
S 8.30 or 9am - usually for 45min (but only 35min if cried a lot)
E bf 10.30 or 11am, lunch 12.30pm
S 1 or 1.30pm - usually 1h30min
E bf 2.30 or 3pm,
supper 5pm
Bath 6pm
E bf 6.30pm
S around 7pm
He usually wakes up twice before DF at 21.30 (have been bringing it earlier gradually). Have tried multiple times to train him to not wake up... First waking can be after 20min, but not always the same. Sometimes he wakes up fully and then takes 1 - 2 hrs to put back to sleep, so I have started falling down the slope of just feeding him again to get him to stay asleep. It really sometimes seems to be the only thing that comforts/settles him! After training him on BW for 7 months I'm so frustrated that it is all coming apart now!

I absolutely love Tracy's stuff and try to follow everything she says so I would love any BW advice please! (Sorry for the very long post...)

[jessmum46]

Hi and welcome, no problem at all about the post length!  It's great to have all the info

This can go on for anything up to 2h30min....!

Wow Are you trying that long for a nap?  If so, please don't feel you have to!!  I can't imagine that's good for either of you!! (I couldn't have done it!!)  Tracy's advice was to try for 45 mins maximum, then take a break and some low-key A time, before trying again.  It's a bit different at night as you would keep going as long as it takes for them to settle, but even so - with such a long settling time in a baby who *can* self-settle on a good day I would be looking hard at the routine and any other factors which might be affecting sleep e.g. pain/teeth/development

Routine-wise I think you could probably do with some adjustments now, which may make it a bit easier for your LO and you.  Most 6-7 month olds can handle 3h awake time so a typical BW routine (let's use 6.30am start) would be more like:

WU 6.30
Nap 9.30-11
Nap 2-3.30
BT 6.30

I think looking at what you posted that your first nap is too early (only about 2h A time) so it is short - and LO fights it because he is not really tired enough for a proper nap at that time.  That means your second nap has to come very early in the day, and so it's a long stretch to bedtime meaning you get several early NWs which are typical for OT.  Some babies do seem to do well on this type of routine, but I couldn't ever really get it to work properly for mine and found the BW approach of looking at A times far better for us.

What I'd suggest is to push out your morning A time by 15 mins, so first nap 2h15 after WU, and hold there for several days.  Then push on a bit more to say 2h30, and hold again for a few days.  Hopefully at some point the morning nap should lengthen, meaning you can push your afternoon nap later, and therefore the stretch of awake time before bed will be shorter and hopefully your LO should sleep more soundly.

What do you think?

[Melian Gray]

Thank you so much for the great reply! 

Yes, that sounds good! I have been wanting him to have a longer first A time, but he sometimes already starts yawning and rubbing his eyes as early as 8am (more often a little later though), which is confusing to me! I then keep him active til his wind-down when he shows tired signs so early, but he then sometimes seems to be OT when I put him down...  Perhaps you are right though and he's actually UT! I have had to learn that when DS yawns and rubs his eyes at meals that it's probably just blood redirecting to his stomach and not time for a nap! I paid expensive school fees learning that....  I was also swayed as my sister's LO has an A time of 1hr first thing and it works perfectly for them (same age as DS). I will definitely try extending the first A time as you suggested though!

Wow Are you trying that long for a nap?

No, that's for bed time! Usual for day naps is maybe 1hr or 1h30min when he cries...  but I always wait for him to look tired before I put him to bed (so sometimes his wind-down is a bit longer than normal, perhaps 20min instead of 10min). Yes, UT fits!

Tracy's advice was to try for 45 mins maximum, then take a break and some low-key A time, before trying again.

THANK YOU!!! This is fantastic! I kept thinking of what Tracy said about 'if you have to pick them up 50 times or 150 times, wouldn't you do that for your little one?' (paraphrasing). So my MO was just to blimming never give up. I am so pleased and relieved to hear this advice!

Just looking at the suggested EASY, that would mean that I'd start moving away from feeding every 4 hours, correct? What would I aim for? I know that within a few months the bf becomes more of a snack (correct me if I'm wrong), but I'm not sure how to get there from where I am now. I know this is not a sleeping issue per se, but it will affect his sleep if I don't move off 4 hrs with your suggested EASY.

Thank you again!!! So appreciate your response - I think it's spot on and just what I needed

[jessmum46]

I have been wanting him to have a longer first A time, but he sometimes already starts yawning and rubbing his eyes as early as 8am (more often a little later though), which is confusing to me!

This can be a combination of things - habit, boredom, or built-up over tiredness from disturbed nights or a long A time before bed.  It's not always that he's not tired, but it's more 'background' tired rather than being tired enough right then and there for a decent nap.  The way I think of it is if you'd had a really busy week, late nights, busy days etc, you'd probably be feeling tired within an hour or two of getting up in the morning.  But if you went to bed then it would be very unlikely you could do a whole night's sleep straight away - does that make sense?  Sometimes you just have to push past the background tiredness with a bit of distraction and you'll find they can cope for rather longer than you expect.

I was also swayed as my sister's LO has an A time of 1hr first thing and it works perfectly for them (same age as DS).

It's not uncommon to see this, but I would look at it in the context of what the whole night and routine is like.  If this LO was going to bed at 7pm and sleeping through to 7am, I'd find it quite unlikely that they would be ready for a nap by 8am.  But if they are going to sleep late, having less than about 10.5h sleep overnight between bedtime and morning, having disturbed nights, or only having one other nap in the day after that early first one, it makes far more sense as that 1h first A time is really a night waking, with the first nap being an extension of night sleep. 

Just to clarify the 45 mins limit was Tracy's suggestion for nap times - at bedtime you'd keep going until they settle ideally.  I will be honest once we got A times sorted, if it was taking longer than about 10 mins for a nap I knew it wasn't going to work and it was much better for us to abandon early, then try again in 15-20 mins.  So feel free to do the same!!

With feeds, I'm assuming your LO now has solids?  The 4h really becomes a bit less important once you have those in the mix too, it's not like tiny babies who need to be few with absolute regularity.  We just did a pattern of WU, BF, solids after an hour, nap, repeat.  So on that routine we'd have had BF at 6.30, 11, 3.30 and BT, with solids at 7.30, 12 and 4.30.  It never seemed to affect sleep particularly for us.  The last A time gets a bit crowded with eating but again it didn't cause us any issues and that afternoon BF was the first to be dropped (around 10 months for us, though I know some people will recommend continuing with at least 4 BF until 12 months).

Hope that is helpful, let me know if any more questions

[Melian Gray]

Very helpful, thank you so much!!!

[Melian Gray]

Hello.... Me again...

So I've been pushing out his first nap, with very poor results. On Friday I started putting him down around 9, after he'd been fussing for a bit (would normally have started putting him down around 8.30 or 8.45). He cried and cried until I took him out of the room for some low key activity at about 9.45. Then after 15min I tried to put him down again (even tried to have him sit on my lap for a bit as that's what I usually do before putting him in his crib), but he just cried even more. I had a visitor coming at 10.30 (DS is usually sleeping by then or has woken up already!) so I ended up feeding him to sleep at 10.25. His second nap for the day was great, he fell asleep in his crib after about 12mins - no major crying. BT was difficult, took 1h25min to eventually settle.

The weekend is always busy for us and he usually ends up sleeping in the car (one of us stays with him til he wakes if necessary) so his naps were fine.  BT Saturday was a disaster though. I persevered with trying to get him to fall asleep in his crib and he got so upset that he vomited his supper onto me    I fed him immediately and he passed out.

Sunday he only had one sleep from 11.25 til 12.10. We tried to put him down from 3pm, but he was just not interested and was trying to climb up his crib (new skill) and then started crying and crying. I gave up and just put him to bed early. He ended up passing out at 6.30pm and slept til 7am this morning when I woke him up (DF at 9.15pm). 

Now Monday morning, it's starting to look exactly the same as Friday... Started putting him down at 9.15 (2h15 A time) but he just cried and cried and arched his back. (I had given him paracetamol at 9 as he was fussing quite a lot and I think he's teething - I also put some teething gel on). Took him out around 9.35 for low key activity, tried again at 9.45, and he started crying again almost as soon as we were in his room. I ended up digging out his pacifier out if the cupboard as he looked as if he needed something to suck on and he lay in his crib playing with it, putting it in his mouth in various different ways, for about 5 min before crying again. When I tried to take him out of his room again a bit later he was just grumpy and angry. Back in the room 10min later and he just cried more. Not seeing any success with any of my attempts I eventually fed him to sleep, again....! I could see he really wanted to sleep but needed to be calmed and all my other options weren't helping! 10.45 I put him (completely passed out) in his crib and he woke at 11.18. I tried to settle him again but he just looked at me like, really? Are we really going to try this again? Then started crying. So I aborted and took him with me to hang the laundry.

It seems like he really does want to go to sleep, but just struggles to settle. His front teeth are about to cut through and he has made very big leaps developmentally. But I don't know if this will get better? Or if this is actually quite normal for this age? His sleep has just been deteriorating so much over the past month or so and I don't know what to do. It feels as if all my hard work training him is going down the drain. He doesn't ask to feed at the beginning of going down, but when it takes so long to put him down it seems to be the only thing that settles him nowadays  I am happy to try anything, but I am now also scared that he will get so upset again and vomit!

I'm finding this very difficult! I'm also too close to see what's going on. Please advise 

[jessmum46]

Aww hugs, sounds like a rough few days for you   Teeth and developmental leaps can really play havoc with sleep, even when you are doing everything you can to help.  We've just had 2 weeks of silly night sleep because the 3.5yo learned to do up his buttons  

Started putting him down at 9.15 (2h15 A time) but he just cried and cried and arched his back.

This is tricky....I would have said on a normal day this would be UT behaviour, it's still a really quite short A time for his age.  But given sleep the day before was a bit messy, and you also woke him in the morning (he may have wanted to sleep quite a bit longer) there could be some OT in the mix too.  It often takes a day or two after a messy day for things to get back on track - at least that's my experience.

When he had good naps on Saturday, how did his day look?

I may have misread earlier in the thread, but before we started to try some changes were you getting resistance for his morning nap as well as the afternoon one?  Just thinking - there are a few options here.  One would be to do a big push to a typical BW 3h A time routine all at once, and just ride out the storm for a few days until it settles (my thoughts here being if he is so UT that he is fighting this hard, a gradual/gentle approach to increasing A time may well be prolonging this unnecessarily).  Another would be to take a step back for a few days, put him down when you think he is tired (or do car naps to get some sleep into him) and let him catch up before beginning again.  Or if you weren't getting much in the way of resistance to the morning nap, you could instead go for a short first A/short first nap and then long pm nap routine, and just adjust that from where it was to something that suits him a bit better?

Do you think separation anxiety could be starting to play a part??

[Melian Gray]

Hello! Thank you for another awesome reply 

To answer your question about Saturday, he only actually had two short sleeps, but I didn't have any resistance for either of them, which is why I said they were fine. His first sleep was quite late, 11am in the car, and can't remember exactly when the second one was but it was in his crib. It might be my own fault that he got so upset that night, I was trying to pick him up less (trying to use pupd as a last resort - as I was realising I must be doing it wrong for it to not be working so often) and he needed me to pick him up sooner.... Fail. In hindsight, I think he has been having a lot of pain from his teeth, and pain definitely qualifies as a reason for pupd to not work!

And no, I don't think separation anxiety is playing a part yet. If anything I tend to distract him and he calms better when he is faced away from me. (I'd love to not have to be in the room while he is falling asleep, but I never got to that point...  )

In terms of the way forward, I tried a combination of those two things today. He started complaining around 9am, so started his wind-down. Very similar to Monday, except I was determined to not feed him, so just took him out of his room whenever I thought it wasn't working. He had been yawning and rubbing his eyes, but at 11am he was still awake (and not looking very tired - he seems to wake himself up!). I decided to feed him (as I thought he needed a snack - he didn't eat much breakfast). He was wide awake before the feed, but then passed out while feeding.  He woke crying after 38min, I fed him again, he passed out again and ended up sleeping for total of 1h30min. Not ideal with the feeding, but at least he got some sleep.
For his second sleep I did a similar thing where I just took him out of his room each time I saw that it wasn't going to work. He was yawning beautifully and zoning, but then got very excited crawling round his crib and trying to climb up the sides (which he has now finally accomplished...). At 4.40 he still hadn't fallen asleep so I just gave him supper early and BT was at 6.20pm. So again, like Sunday, only one sleep...

So lots of developmental things causing issues and definitely teething at play (I can see his teeth cutting through).

At this point I will try whatever you recommend....! 

Thank you again for the help - I so appreciate it!

[Melian Gray]

Ok ! I've been thinking a bit more about this whole thing, and I think I'm going to try to only start putting him down after 2h45/3 hr of A time. I absolutely love this forum and have just been reading some more threads from moms in similar situations - and there was one particular thread that jessmum46 was helping with in 2012 (Thank you for helping us for all these years!!!!!) where incorrect A times was responsible for many of the same things that DS is facing. So I'm happy to try that.

This morning he actually fell asleep on my friend's back exactly 3hr after WU but then woke up 5min later when we tried to put him down.... Then struggled til 11 with him being completely wide awake and hyper. I then fed him and he passed out immediately. So frustrating!

I just want to help him through this and to not jeopardise the progress we had made previously with sleep! Can someone tell me I won't be struggling with this forever now that we've regressed?? or must I just wait a bit til things settle then start training him from scratch? How does one even do that without Sh/Pt??

[Melian Gray]

Oh no....! Just read this from another thread...

I would try not to go back to BF to sleep - that is undoing a whole lot of hard work and will be much harder to get out of as he gets older. 

PLEASE someone help me - I don't know what to do to get DS to fall asleep without feeding him!!

So far this week he has either fallen asleep in his pram or while feeding...! He has not fallen asleep in his crib for 5 days now... And he has started with EW the past 3 mornings...

If I just point blank refuse to feed him then I forsee him missing sleeps - is that the cost that must be paid? He has gone through major developments in the last 2 weeks and is teething.

Sleep over the past 5 days:
AM: He has been fighting his am sleep for up to an hour and a half - at which point I feed because that's when he usually would be fed, and also he's getting hungry after all the crying (see above posts) - so he's inadvertently been having 4 hours for his first A time (aiming for 3).
PM: Then for his pm nap, he either DOES NOT HAVE a pm sleep as he fights it til supper time or he falls asleep when I eventually feed him.
BT: If he's had only one nap during the day then he passes out quickly. If he had a pm sleep, then even if he gets 3 hours A time before BT, it takes him approx 1h20min to go to sleep...

Please... does anyone have any advice? I'm starting to feel quite anxious that this is going to become even more difficult to fix later.

[jessmum46]

((Hugs)) hun, just catching up.  I am about to head out of the house right now but will be back to reply properly very soon once I've dropped DS at a party....hang in there x

[jessmum46]

OK I'm back.  I know how overwhelming this can feel - but you can get through it   How have the last few days been? 

Try not to stress too much about the feeding to sleep, sometimes it gets to a point where the fact that they need sleep is more important than how it happens - but equally if it's your go-to every time it is likely to cause issues at some point.  With my kids even now at nearly 6yo DD occasionally gets so hyper crazy at bedtime she can't settle - in which case I break our usual rules and let her have a CD on for a while which helps her relax and settle off.  But if we did that every day I know she would miss out on sleep overall and so it isn't allowed on a regular day.  When DS was younger he'd find it hard to sleep after nursery, so I'd sit with him - but again on normal days I wouldn't.  So feeding to sleep when they are beside themselves exhausted once in a while is unlikely to cause a problem.  But if it's the end result of failed PUPD every time then each time will be harder because he will hold out for the feed.  Does that sort of make sense?

I think if it was me I would try to clear the diary for a few days, and concentrate on him sleeping in the crib - and avoiding situations where he might fall asleep elsewhere.  I would as you suggested go straight for 3h A time now, and use PUPD.  Do your winddown, put him in the crib awake (not drowsy, calm is ok) and step back.  Leave him unless he cries for you - in which case use PUPD.  From the FAQs:

6-8 MONTHS OLD - Pu/pd becomes more of a partnership at this age and it is key that you follow your baby’s pace and make the following adaptations to the basic procedure;

•   You don’t pick them up as a matter of course but you offer them pick up. You hold your hands to your baby and say “let me pick you up” and you pick them up when they reach to you.
•   You pick them up in a cradle position and say “It’s okay, we’re just going to sleep.”. Don’t rock or sway and don’t make eye contact.
•   Put them down immediately after you say your key phrase.
•   Once your baby starts to soothe you continue to soothe with words and a hand for presence if this helps your baby.  Some babies may find this too disruptive so you take your baby’s lead. 

Tracy's advice when establishing a routine was to stick quite rigidly to a schedule to begin with, though I think sticking to the 3h A time would be fine instead of clock times.  Her suggestion was to try for 45 mins, take a break if not settled, then go back and try again for the remainder of 'naptime'.  E.g. if WU is 7am, first nap is ideally 10am ( I wouldn't actually put him down in the crib much before 10am or again you risk UT fighting), and nap should ideally be 1.5-2h.  So you'd try from 10-10.45, take 10 mins break, then try again until 'naptime' is meant to be over at 11.30am.  He'll be cross if he doesn't settle, and yes he'll be hungry, but if he has milk and breakfast in the first A time then he won't starve to death!  Feed him when you 'officially' get him up from his nap and do whatever it takes to keep him awake. 

Tracy advised then pushing on through until next planned naptime ie from an 11.30am 'WU' to 2.30pm.  This is pretty tough I think....but you'd be unlikely to meet a lot of resistance at that point!  Skipped naps are very common when sleep training but eventually the OT catches up and starts working in your favour.  I do think it would be fine to go for an earlier nap though and if it were me I'd probably do milk, lunch and then try again for a nap as (despite appearances) he most certainly will be tired!

Does that help?

[Melian Gray]

Hello! Yes, thank you, that does help. I'm happy to do whatever is necessary, it's just that I sometimes doubt that what I am doing is the necessary thing...!

These past few days have been a bit better. I started on 3hrs for 3 days, then moved to 3h15/3h30 for his first A time and for the past four days bar one he has managed to have a long sleep for his first sleep! (I have had my hand on him from 25min - 50min to extend him). So I think I've found his A time. Ill stop extending as soon as he does a long sleep 3 days in a row. Otherwise he has managed to fall asleep in his crib 4 times over about 6 days, which really is not a lot, but better than before. I'm trying very hard with the first nap and then was resorting to AP for the afternoon nap if necessary (usually in his pram he's out in about 10min!) as I don't want his last nap to be too late to mess with BT... I did the first day today of no APOP and he missed his afternoon sleep - started WD at 2.30 and gave up at 4. BT was at 6.30, but he's woken 4 times already. Hopefully tomorrow will be better.

I have been having copious trouble with BT.... This standing! He has finally learned how to get down on his own, but it takes hours for him to settle! He gets so excited when he's climbed up while I'm there that I leave the room when he climbs and only go back to him when he cries. I make sure that he's been awake for at least 3hrs before BT and he looks tired after his bath, but as soon as he is in his crib he's climbing up and down and up and down and he looks wide awake... Is it possible his afternoon sleep is too late (if he wakes up at 4 after approx 25min nap) and that he is not tired enough for BT?

Do your winddown, put him in the crib awake (not drowsy, calm is ok) and step back.  Leave him unless he cries for you - in which case use Pupd.

Thank you - this is very helpful! I haven't been sure what I should be doing. This helped already today - he was asleep within 15min for his first sleep today.

I feel as if I have been sleep training him non stop for 6 months... There just always seems to be some battle!

Thank you so much for your help and advice!!! Any thoughts on afternoon nap interfering with BT?

[jessmum46]

How are you getting on?

Late naps can interfere with bedtime for some kids, but it sounds like you are giving a full A time after a short nap so I wouldn't have thought UT was likely - more OT/hyped up?  What do you think?

[Melian Gray]

Hello! And seasons greetings!

We're getting on ok, still struggling a lot with crying before sleeping, but doing better with falling asleep on his own. Re late naps, I think it was UT, but maybe you are right and he is hyped up. All I know is thar I tried various things, but the only thing that helped on late nap days was just to put him to sleep later (I sometimes feel as if I can't be very good at calming DS! :/)

I am still concerned about the crying though... He just cries himself to sleep...  And it is not mantra crying, he gets quite worked up. I think he anticipates bedtime (or naptime) and gets distressed. He gets very upset, actually... The more I think about it I really think he's developed negative associations with going to sleep. It makes sense that it might have happened when I was persevering for 1h30min to put him to sleep Would you agree? If so, what could I do to make bedtime happy again? Or is this what separation anxiety looks like? Even though I'm still in the room...?