TWINS advice please!! 7.5 weeks (4 weeks adjusted)

[Tori29]

Hi everyone! Firstly just wanted to say what a RELIEF to find BW books- I was up googling during an all nighter desperate for something to guide me, as have felt quite lost these last few weeks with zero schedule with my identical twin girls! I had my parents for first 5 weeks helping which meant the girls constantly had arms to be cuddled in and didnt cry as they were always held and I am exclusive breast feeding so was feeding on demand. I didnt worry too much as they were born at almost 37 weeks so they needed to eat (thankfully my milk supply is good and the pediatrician is very happy with their weight gain so far).
However- now I am on my own (husband works) I realised I needed a schedule and fast and BW seems great! I implemented yesterday and have a few initial questions (I have read most of the main book and just downloaded the sequel about problem solving which will read soon when I can).
Activity time seems really short for my girls- maybe 30 (40 mins if I am lucky), before they start yawning. Emilia seems to be more tired- she yawns, I put her down for nap (the nap routine works great with her) and then wait for Isabel to start showing her tired signs which she does soon after (she is a bit trickier to put down, but eventually does with the pat/shush/"you're ok" routine on repeat).

They also feed very quickly, like 10-15 minutes (one breast each)- I tried today to feed each of them again during their activity time to get them to take a bit more. My breasts are soft after their feed and they seem content.

So my E and A times are very short which is messing with my 3 hours EASY routine.

Then for sleep- Isabel (who is difficult to go down) will wake up occasionally- I shush her back to sleep a few times, but if she wakes up and seems hungry like this morning, I end the nap time and feed them both- waking Emilia up- which is a nap time of 1 hour.

Is that sufficient times? should I try to extend their A time, or do I risk them getting into over-tired state?

Can I modify the EASY routine to have shorter E and A times, just more frequent?
If they wake up from nap early *and dont seem hungry* I read that I should . go to activity until their next feed time according to the schedule, which I will aim to do, but am worried about them going hungry if I try to stick too religiously to the EASY schedule! Like with cluster feeds in the evening- is it ok to feed during activity if they seem hungry (mouths open etc)?

Another problem to add to the mix right now is that they are suffering from adenovirus (diarrhea for last 2.5 weeks)- we had a stool test and dr confirmed it was this virus and said to have patience it will go away, but its been 2.5 weeks now. Thankfully they have no fever, seem relatively happy, feed well etc- but am aware that they have a danger of dehyrdration so another reason for me to not "withhold" breast feeding from them, to ensure they get enough milk. Hopefully this will clear up soon and I can stick to the schedule a bit more.

Would really appreciate anyone's comments/ feedback/ tips/ advice on what I am doing, as complete newbie to this world of baby schedules, especially with TWO!!

Thank you so much for running this forum! Makes me feel less alone!

Tori xxx 

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Hello and welcome to BW forums

Congratulation son your twin arrivals

It's advised to BF on demand so don't worry about getting E on time.
Also it is quite normal for some babies to eat more frequently than 3hrs.  Tracy mentioned this in the book.
I would imagine for your sanity having them on some sort of routine will help you keep on track with everything but don't worry about things all being "on time", BW is about responding to LO's individual needs.
It's fine to have a bit of A before E if they are either not due a feed or not hungry. Don't make them wait though if they are hungry, EASY is a respectful routine not a strict timed schedule.

Can I modify the EASY routine to have shorter E and A times, just more frequent?

Yes absolutely.  You will need to work with A times that suit your LOs (sounds like you already are if you are getting them both down! Well done!) and E times which suit them, this means it might not always be EASY but EASAEAS for example.

Sorry to hear they are poorly.  Certainly, feed on demand.

It sounds like you are doing brilliantly.  You might be panicking a bit now that your parents have gone back home but try to stay relaxed, do what you can to get them down at roughly the same time if only to give yourself a few mins break whilst they sleep simultaneously. Take care of yourself, food, shower, fresh air, sleep (sleep??) okay rest.
Do not worry about schedules and when you "ought" to be doing what, do not worry about bad habits (anything can be weaned when appropriate), and do not worry about house work (bare essentials only!).

Your more tricky sleeper might be helped with W2S (wake to sleep), there is a descritpion here:
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=223809.0
naps option 1. You start patting before the wake up, so for your DD start around 50 mins and take her right through the transition between sleep cycles and back into deep sleep. it doesn't always work (and won't if she is hungry) but it can help in keeping LOs relaxed and make it easier to resettle to extend the nap if they are not left to fully wake.  Although it does sound like you are already doing similar.

hope this helps.
We are here to support you.

[Tori29]

Hello!

Thank you so much for your reply and advice! That is good to know not to worry too much about the timings. Today they woke at 8, and we had a pretty good day, but the timings were kind of off. Last night bedtime was really difficult!! about 2 hours of full on crying mixed with feeding, more crying etc. So it is the bedtimes that I am now fearing!
Here is today's routine so far:

(middle of night woke at 2am and 5:30am)
E: 8-8:45 (with nappy change in middle)
A:8:45-9am
S: 9am- 10:45am

E: 10:50-11:30am (with nappy change in middle)
A: 11:30- 12pm
S: 12-1:30pm

E: 1:30-2pm (with nappy change in middle)
A: 2:2:30pm
S: 2:30- 3:30pm (This was a walk outside in pram- as soon as we leave house they fall asleep, but it was a one-hour walk- when we came back to the house I had to take them out of the pram as it doesnt fit in the door! and twin A woke up, twin B went to sleep in bassinet, but decided to wake her up, as want to keep them on same schedule). A was hungry so did a feed.

A: 3:30pm-3:45pm
E: 3:45pm- 4:15pm
A: 4:15pm- 4:45pm (with mini feed in middle as they cried and seemed a bit hungry)
S: 4:45- 5:15pm - this was the catnap (they only lasted 30 mins)

E: 5:30-5:50pm
A: 5:50-6:15pm (bath)
BT: 6:15pm- 6:30pm
S: 6:30pm....

So they are currently asleep- just posted about cluster feeds (not sure whether I should have fed just after the cat nap, or if I should have fed them after their bath, just before they go to bed?)- I was asking Should I be waking them up at 8pm for a cluster feed? How does the cluster feed work?- is it a proper wake up, or if they wake up?
And I will try the dream feed just before I go to bed as well.

The middle of the night feeds don't bother me too much at moment, as I know they are not well, and also young.

What do you think of today's routine? Would you recommend any tweaks/ changes? I am trying to work on the important points, like activity after eating, and putting them down to same nap/bedtime routine and then when crying doing the shush pat (works a treat with twin B, but twin A the light/sensitive sleeper takes more time- my poor eardrums!!).

Also- the afternoon nap time I really enjoy taking them out in the pram each day if I can, but its only 45 mins usually. They fall asleep straight away in the pram- but when we come home they wake up- is there any solution for this? Should I keep them in pram outside?! I know some countries do this- I am in Argentina in a ski resort town and its around 2 degrees outside- they are bundled up and nice and snug, but not sure about a full 1.5hours outside. Any ideas? I really wouldn't want to lose out on this walk as it makes me feel normal!

Sorry for all the many questions! I wish there was a helpline to call!!

Thanks for your time xx

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my poor eardrums!!

ear plugs? head phones with calm music playing?

Looks like you are doing brilliantly.  Don't panic about everything being on time, the general routine is there and you are managing to get your LOs to sleep which is great.  If you need to put a CN in the day then perhaps just reduce the A time before and after a little if you can although it's not always possible.
I'm not sure about them sleeping outside when it's so cold, if it was me I'd be bringing them in and putting up with the shorter nap I think.  You should certainly keep going for your walk!  You're lucky they sleep nicely in the pram, my DS refused to sleep in a pram so I had no option (I tried walks he just screamed his head off the entire time so I gave up).

With regards to feeds in the evening you can feed on demand, that's best when BF.  You can do one after the nap one before/after bath and again at the actual BT. I probably wouldn't wake them up for a cluster though (not unless there was a weight gain issue and the doc had said to feed more frequently for instance), you could possibly do a DF earlier in the night sleep as well as later in the night sleep if they take a DF that is.  If not I think I'd just do one around 10.30 is or whenever it fits in before you go to bed. My DS also wouldn't take a DF but I chose to lift him and feed anyway at the DF time, he woke for it instead and soon it was such a habit he woke naturally at that time ready for it.  It still helped me get the best stretch of sleep possible. I did feed, nappy and back in bed but not all LOs need a nappy change, depends what nappies you use.

By the way, sorry I was unable to reply sooner. I do usually try to get on every day and reply to all my threads but I'm super busy in real life at the moment so I'm not around so much. In just over a week I'll be disappearing for a while without internet connection (house move).  Please don't feel abandoned, just start a new thread and someone will pick it up.

[Tori29]

Thank you so much for your reply! I hope that you had a good house move- I know how stressful those are!!

I really appreciate your advice. Things have actually been going surprisingly well with the EASY routine - the girls have adapted really well to it and seem to enjoy the routine and I feel much more able as a mother, knowing what to do with them based on the routine! Still have some issues with wind, but they are in general doing well thankfully. We are using pacifiers/dummies for naps and bedtime, which has been huge help but we are quite reliant on them- only if the babies are super tired do they not use them, rest of the time they wont settle unless they have a pacifier. I read in BW that suckling is natural for babies this young and using a pacifier is ok- but wasn't sure until what age is recommended, and also if we should really be using the pacifier so often for naps? We don't use them out of the crib, just for sleeping.

Today though we went into town for a few hours to try taking them out (in baby carriers) and when we came back (at 4pm) they have been unsettled for the rest of the day and going into the evening. Lots of crying, snacking feeds, wind, waking up etc and tag- teaming me! So have found that quite difficult and not very encouraging to go out with them again, until they are older (they are just over 2 months at moment now). I think with one baby it is perhaps easier to manage - if they are unsettled, you know they will sleep at one point, but with twins, if one is sleeping, the other can be awake and then they swap so I don't get a chance! I am more inclined to just hibernate with them and stick to the routine as much as possible!

Would like to know if other mums with twins doing EASY have managed to successfully go out - and if any tips!

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I read in BW that suckling is natural for babies this young and using a pacifier is ok- but wasn't sure until what age is recommended, and also if we should really be using the pacifier so often for naps?

I think in the bW books Tracy said to let them do the rapid sucking to sooth andlet them wear off the reflex but then to let it drop out or take it out when sucking was slower and less vigorous to avoid a habit.
But, SIDS guidance suggests paci use is a good thing in helping avoid SIDS so if you are using at every sleep then maybe just see it as a good thing?  The not so good side is that you can end up replugging several times per night if they need it all night to get back to sleep.  The SIDS advice is that if a LO is reliant on a paci for sleep not to drop cold turkey before 6 months or there is raised risk.
For tooth and speech development it's advised to stop using a paci at 6 months.
There are often paci questions and I always say it's best to read around and decide for yourself what you are happy with.

Hibernation sounds good   many call the first few months the fourth trimester and many keep things low key for a long "baby moon".
TBH I found it hard to get out just with one LO, the first couple of weeks he seemed okay and relatively easy to get out with as he just slept but by about 6 wks it was a major operation which had to be timed perfectly.  One day my mum said to me as we were preparing to go out, "shall I feed him" and I said "no chance if we don't go now we'll be stuck here for the next 3hrs...just GO GO GO!"

There are a few mums of twins in the community. Maybe post a new thread to see if you can attract some twin eyes?

My DS refused a paci so I didn't have the decision to make.