Author Topic: Waking out of habit !!  (Read 1574 times)

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Offline hana1978

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Waking out of habit !!
« on: September 04, 2005, 08:09:37 am »
My DS is 5 months old, corrected age 3 months and wakes at 1.30am & 5.30am - i dont know what to do besides bottle feed him as im not confident enough to kniow hes definately NOT hungry but i know this is reinforcing bad habits.  If hes waking at the same times it cant be hunger can it?  How do i break the cycle?
Hana.xx

Offline Pendle Girl

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I'm wondering too
« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2005, 09:52:49 am »
Sorry to but in on your thread, but I was wondering the same thing.

My 6 week old was sleeping from her dream feed around 11pm to 4am, the bobbing off for another few hours through til 6 or 7am.

But for the past 2 nights she's taken her dream feed well and then woken up at 2am (almost to the minute), won't go back to sleep, so I've fed her.  She then goes back to sleep until around 5.30am.

I'm absolutely sure she's not just babbling in her sleep, she's wide awake at 2am and being very vocal.

Last night I tried for 30 mins to get her back to sleep rather than feeding her, but failed.

Am I expecting too much or is she waking on habit rather than hunger?

Offline Katet

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Waking out of habit !!
« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2005, 10:14:12 am »
Pendle Girl, I think your lo could be going through a growth spurt as she is 6wo... it should settle in a few days.

hana, you could try reducing the amount you feed at each time, gradually over a few days & if you feel comfortable with it when it gets low just offer water for one of the feeds.
What is your day routine like? they often have a big influence on night after about 3mo. the fact it is the exact time, could be habit, but given the corrected age, could also be a growth spurt
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Offline hana1978

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Waking out of habit !!
« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2005, 11:05:03 am »
Hi Pendle Girl - dont worry about gatecrashing  :)  its always nice to know someones going through the same thing !!  Almost def sounds like a growth spurt - is she taking a full feed at 2am?  If she is then you know for sure !

Hi Kate thanks for your reply - we have no rountine i simply cant do it and ive tried so many times.  His get up for the day times differ between 5.30-7.00am - because of his night feeding he doesnt want anything until at least 8.30am no matter how hard i try - i tend to feed him every 3 1/2 hours after that.  His sleeping his bad, ive recently done sleep training and he now goes to sleep independantly - great!!  But he wont nap for more than 30mins no matter what i do - because of this i cant get into a rountine with him, each day is differant  :cry:   I make him nap every 1h30mins that he is up, tends to take about x5 30min naps a day.
Do you think this is effecting the night?
Hana.xx

Offline Pendle Girl

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Waking out of habit !!
« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2005, 13:15:15 pm »
Thanks everyone - I don't know why I didn't think of that!!

Yes, she's taking a full feed at 2 - which is unusual for her as she normally just takes 1/2 - 3/4 of it.   :lol:

Offline Katet

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Waking out of habit !!
« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2005, 06:18:27 am »
Hana, I do think the 30min naps are the root of your problem, it is good he can go to sleep independently, but now needs to learn how to resettle, as he basically only knows how to go to sleep, from my understanding this is common & fixes its self, but can take ages (weeks to months) in some babies.
What I would suggest is going in at the 25min mark & trying to get him through by patting him, what you want to do is help him through that change in sleep cycle & once you have got it working a few days it should happen naturally on his own.
I would try every sleep time for at least another 1/2 hour to 40mins to get him back off, even if like my lo he wakes up happy, if he hasn't had at least 1-1.5 hours sleep you don't get him up, happy or not, is the motto in this house! Once he starts regularly giving 1.5 hour - 2 hour sleeps, I think you should see improvement at night, but you may need to help that along too.
to get some sort of routine set up, say you will feed at 8.30 +/- 15 mins & then work from there either 3.5 or 4 hours, depending on how you feel, I would tend towards the 4 hour as he is bottle fed. Then after 1.5-2hours depending on how tired he willhave a nap, you may have to do a bit of EASAESAS type patterns to get it working & him not too tired.
HTH
dc1 July 03, dc2 May 05

Offline hana1978

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Waking out of habit !!
« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2005, 17:52:08 pm »
Quote (selected)
it is good he can go to sleep independently, but now needs to learn how to resettle, as he basically only knows how to go to sleep, from my understanding this is common & fixes its self

Oh god does it?  I was hoping/thinking/asuming once they knew how to fall asleep they could resettle themselves too?  So this will sort itself out if im consistent?

Quote (selected)
What I would suggest is going in at the 25min mark & trying to get him through by patting him, what you want to do is help him through that change in sleep cycle & once you have got it working a few days it should happen naturally on his own

I know i should try and do this, i just lack convidence in what im doing so much.  Gina Ford (dont know if you know of her) suggests getting them to sleep/stay asleep at the times you want any way you possibly can so that there body clock gets used to it - then they will do it naturally but then im worried about the whole prop thing (in his case a dummy) - dont really want to go down that road again!

Anyway thank you for all your advice - hell you know your stuff !!  I feel so naive !!  Im going to try getting him onto easy, i really am!!
Hana.xx

Offline Katet

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Waking out of habit !!
« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2005, 22:02:56 pm »
Hana, just keep at it... I'm on baby #2 remember & I was like you if not worse with #1!

First thing is you are doing great if he can go to sleep independently.
To help lengthen the naps you will need to help him along, as he knows he gets another short nap each time he is tired, he hasn't learnt to stay awake longer, so you need to help him by consolidating the naps down to 3/day

It is all pretty stressful stuff, but you can get there, There are many wonderful ladies on this site & post all your questions, & as things work you'll get more confident... who knows in a few months you could be advising others what works!!!

Gina Ford is right about the body clock bit, but more so as they get older (6m+) But in my mind & many others on this site & my friend who is an early childhood nurse, her awake times are way too long for babies under about 9mo. Your lo given adjusted age, should probably be on an awake time around 1.5-2 hours

Let me know what time you want your lo's bedtime & I can help you work out an EASY if you like
dc1 July 03, dc2 May 05

Offline hana1978

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Waking out of habit !!
« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2005, 14:56:30 pm »
Yeh i noticed that about Gina Ford too, her wake times are vvv long - i think a 3-4 month baby she reckons should be up from 2-15pm - bedtime - theres no way my DS could do that happily but her rountines are much easier to follow.  Easy just seems...too hard, mainly because of the x2 two hour naps, i cant see that ever happening !  Although a fortnight ago i was saying that about him falling to sleep independantly so maybe i should just shut up  :roll:
I would LOVE for you to help me get onto easy - would you mind?  I didnt want to bother anyone and ask  :oops: 
Can you adapt it then to suit you?  Idealy i want him to be asleep by 7.30pm but normally its between 6.15 - 6.30 as due to the lack of good sleep in the day he is shattered !!!!!!!  This means he normally wakes at the same time in the morning - on average 6.30am - which i know is not bad, im lucky hes not wanting up at 5am like some mums ive read about here.  I keep him awake for 1h10mins before wind down - hes normally asleep in 20mins so thats 1h30mins up time.  He has his 30min nap and i do the whole thing again about four times - it gets harder to put him down near bedtime for some reason.
What i want is for him to wake at 7.30am i feed him 7.30, 11.30, 3.30, 7.00 with good solid naps in the day and asleep by 7.30pm - am i wishful thinking  :?
I just wish i could get past this 30min nap problem - ive tried extending it with shh/patt but it doesnt seem to work - should i keep at it?  Its hard fighting a body clock  :lol:  Somtimes i end up feeding him before his due right before nap time so it doesnt cut in  :roll:  Were a mess  :oops:
Hana.xx

Offline Katet

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Waking out of habit !!
« Reply #9 on: September 08, 2005, 10:21:58 am »
Hana, I don't follow a strict EASY & it can work, the key is to try & get longer naps at least some of the time, for me it is usually only the middle of the day most days but that seems to be enough to guarantee good night sleeps
Your feed times are what I aim for & let me tell you with a toddler, they don't always work out that way, so I know some flexability is fine there too.
Firstly feeds you want to aim for 7.30, 11.30, 3.30 & 7pm... so with in that range I think +/- a half hour is acceptable as long as you don't really go less than 3.5 & more than 4.5 hours between 2 feeds ie if you feed at 7, you could still do 11.30, or 11 & then try to catch it up later. Also with the 7pm feed. I actually do a 6.45 feed before Liam's bath & a 7.30pm one after the bath... some might say it is 2, others 1... but it works for us. So say you need to feed at 3pm, I don't see why you can't offer at 6ish & then 'top up' at 7ish, if it works for you.
OK so the idea here is in a perfect world, you would want (I'm basing this on a 4mo... although adjusted is a bit younger, he is a bit younger, but 4mo he will be soon & lets work towards not having to make another change.
7ish wakeup
E - 7.30
A - (wind down from 8.30)
S - 9-11 *
E - 11.30
A - (wind down from 12.30)
S - 1-3*
E - 3.30
A - wind down from 4.30
S - 5-5.30
E - 7pm
S 7.30pm

Ok lets start with wakeups before 7am (5 - 6.30)... offer a small feed just to tide over until 7.30am & expect to feed a bit less at 7.30. between 6.30 & 7, try to distract from a feed, by trying to resettle. Any wakeups before 7am, try to resettle after the feed.

OK the 2 bigh naps 9-11 & 1-3.
I know the books say start as you mean to go, but I know sometimes that it just too much.
So I say pick one nap to focus on & work around trying to be home to work on it.
The other one... well start as if you want to get it extended... but after trying for say 15mins, maybe put your lo in the pram, cover it to block out the world & head off on a walk... thats what I do with ourt morning nap, when we don't have other activities. so you are still getting the "down time" for your lo - the key is 2 hours doesn't always have to be sleep, but it needs to be very low stimulation.

Now with extending the 30 min naps... 9-11 & 1-3 are "quiet" times... so I suggest, you put him down for his nap & then when he wakes up, try to get him back to sleep for about 20-30mins, then when you don't succeed, get him up, but don't engage in any stimulation, just try to sit cuddling him in a quiet dim place for 20mins & start all over again... don't think of those times as "having to be sleep" but as times you need your lo to "rest" from stimulation

OK so your lo wants to start the day at 6.00am & so is ready for a nap, long before it's due, so it is going to mess up the day... try just letting him sleep 10mins just before the 7.30am feed, just to tie him over.

A few things to remember, this is all a bit "ideal" & it won't work exactly,
but if "your day" starts at 7, then all wakeups before 7am are treated as night wakeups.
Any time in the 2 hours of "sleep time" is non stimulation, in the cot in the room or in the pram coverd up
You don't need to do it by the clock, but you use it as a guide to keep things on track

I don't know how you feel about walking, but if I lived in London, I would be out taking long walks for my lo's nap time (I lived in London for 6months in 1993) & that is ok as long as it isn't every nap every day!
HTH it is long & waffaly, but I had to do it stop start around the demands of a toddler, who only had a short nap in the car today, so I didn't really get 'me' time!!
dc1 July 03, dc2 May 05

Offline hana1978

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Waking out of habit !!
« Reply #10 on: September 10, 2005, 07:50:16 am »
Hi Kate sorry for the delay in responding!  Thanks sooooooooo much for all your help your a god send  :D
I agree about not being able to follow a strict EASY its just not going to happen - esp when my mum has him 3 times a week - she thinks its a load of rubbish (and thats putting it in polite terms)  :roll:  Dont you just hate it when people say 'in my day'  :evil:

I do like the idea of giving him half a feed before bath and half after - may have to try that one tonight !

His wake ups times have actually improved the last couple of days (7am - 7.30am) so fingers crossed on that score!

I think i might try the pram idea and focus on his lunchtime nap which most books say is the most important and should be the longest - see if i can get his body clock used to a couple of hours then hopefully he will do it naturally in his cot!

Quote (selected)
Now with extending the 30 min naps... 9-11 & 1-3 are "quiet" times... so I suggest, you put him down for his nap & then when he wakes up, try to get him back to sleep for about 20-30mins, then when you don't succeed, get him up, but don't engage in any stimulation, just try to sit cuddling him in a quiet dim place for 20mins & start all over again... don't think of those times as "having to be sleep" but as times you need your lo to "rest" from stimulation

This is a toughy - i know i have to try and extend his naps but have to admit ive been putting it off.  I had a horrible time with him at the beggining of his sleep training so i know whats in store i guess  :cry:  Each day i say im going to try and lull him back to sleep, somedays i do try but give up too easily - i just cant stand the crying!  Its like you know that feeling when your waiting in the dentist waiting room and now and again you get that horrible nervous knot feeling in your stomach - thats the effect it has on me when he crys  :roll:

Quote (selected)
OK so your lo wants to start the day at 6.00am & so is ready for a nap, long before it's due, so it is going to mess up the day... try just letting him sleep 10mins just before the 7.30am feed, just to tie him over

ohhh i like this idea, that way i can keep on track coz when he wakes at 6.00am i just throw the routine out the window as i know he will want to go to sleep by 5.30-600pm

Quote (selected)
I don't know how you feel about walking, but if I lived in London, I would be out taking long walks for my lo's nap time (I lived in London for 6months in 1993) & that is ok as long as it isn't every nap every day

Not the part of London i live in you wouldnt  :lol:

Thanks Kate for all your help and using your me time to answer my post  :oops: what an angel you are.  I promise im going to try everything you said from Monday!!  Were out and about all wkd but Monday im gonna stay in all week and get sorted - yaaay im excited!
Ill keep you posted - thanks again i really appreciate everything you've done for me  :D  :D  :D
Hana.xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Hana.xx

Offline Katet

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Waking out of habit !!
« Reply #11 on: September 11, 2005, 08:36:07 am »
Hana, I know what you mean about people saying "in my day"!

I know how hard it is when you are dealing with naps, even with Liam who is Mr Easy going & these days goes to sleep pretty easily, I still get all knotted up just before nap time & I too hate the crying. The thing is when you actually get them rested & in a good routine, it becomes whinging & then almost no crying... so work towards the goal that the harder you try the less he has to cry!!

The key is to relax yourself first... take heaps of deep breaths & do something that relaxes you at the start of wind down... with Aiden I used to read "my books" out loud in a calm way, just for the soothing voice... with Liam I read to both boys, so its Noddy & Spot & Thomas books... although I could almost recite them now. In that quiet time I described, maybe just sit & cuddle in a quiet room for the first few days, don't try to get him off to sleep, just relax together, have a quiet chat about how much you love him etc.

When Aiden was 5mo, my dh was quiet sick & if couldn't get him to sleep longer, I used to lie down with him on our spare bed bed & just talk  quietly about life, because if I let him cry it disturbed dh. eventually he slept longer.
dc1 July 03, dc2 May 05