Please HELP with 10 month old afternoon naps!

[mom2william]

Hi, I am still struggling with the PM nap for my almost 11 month old.  I cannot seem to EVER hit upon the correct awake time between his AM and PM nap.  I try to keep him up anywhere between 3 to 3.5 hours as that seems to be the time most babies are awake for this age.  I can't seem to win.  Some days he may sleep an hour to 1 hr. 15 but it isn't enough it seems.  But lot's of days, he wakes at the 35 to 40 minute mark and CANNOT get to the next sleep cycle.  What should I do?  I haven't really tried PU/PD as he's so heavy.  Should I do wake to sleep?  Is he too old for wake to sleep for naps?  He's usually overtired it seems during the late afternoon as his PM nap is just not usually good.  Today, he slept for about 1.5 hrs in the AM.  He woke up crying from that nap (which is usual for him, unfortunately).  So, I kept him up about 3.5 hours and then put him down at 1:55pm this afternoon.  He almost never acts tired anymore in the PM so I just have to go with the hours he's been awake and that's why it always seems a crap shoot!  I have tried 3 hours btwn the AM and PM nap and that doesn't seem to work, either.  His schedule is something like this:

5-5:45am Wake up (yes, we've been struggling with the early AM waking for too long now!)
6:00 or 6:30 BF
7:30-8:00 Breakfast
8:45-9:30 Nap #1 (depends on when he wakes up and how long he can last.  I'm trying to keep a decent nap time for the morning even though he's waking too early)
10:30-11:30 awake
Sometimes will BF after getting up
12:30 Lunch
BF after lunch but he doesn't nurse to sleep
Anywhere btwn 1:30 or 2:30 Nap #2
Wakes up from nap #2 anywhere btwn 35min. to an hour.  Varies GREATLY!
3:30-5:00pm Wake time
5:00pm dinner
6:00pm Bath
6:30-7:00pm Bedtime

I know this is a hard age with naps.  He doesn't usually refuse his PM nap but just is quite inconsistent with it.  Another issue we're having is that it is taking him FOREVER to eat his finger foods.  Sometimes I sit there with him an hour!!!!  It is really eating into our wind down.  I don't know what the deal is, honestly.  Actually, as I'm writing this, I am wondering if the early AM waking is causing him to start out his day overtired and by the time he gets to his second nap he is waaaaaaaay overtied and can't sleep well?  I have posted before but am still struggling so much.  I need this fixed 
Thanks in advance for the advice, gals!
Suzanne
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William born 3/23/05

[Caroline-Charlies Mummy]

Hello Suzanne,

I had to answer, as out lo's have the same birthdays

I am also having some nap problems, at the moment, slightly different to yours, but I will try and help.

I think you are right that your lo is overtired, and is struggling to sleep well. Have you considered that maybe his bedtime is a little early? I think 7pm is OK, but if he is consistently going to bed at 6.30pm, that could be contributing to the early wakings. If he wakes up from his AM nap crying (and still tired?), then I wouldn't try to push his awake time too far. You may find you have to start the windown at somewhere like 2.5hrs, and maybe in bed at 3 hrs. Also, for a few days at least, try to keep his awake times as low-key as possible, until he's caught up, and is not so overtired that he's getting overstimulated.

Wake to sleep also sounds like a good idea in this situation, I also couldn't imagine pu/pd with the size of my lo!

Let us know if you need help with any of that

[mom2william]

Thanks so much for your reply, Caroline!  That is so cool that our LO's have the same birthday!  I can't believe it's almost been one year! 

I know my DS is overtired as yesterday he only took a 35 min. afternoon nap and was rubbing his eyes terribly by 5:30pm.  Thanks for the advice with the bedtime.  However, I am so confused with that!!  I have read some people say that putting them to bed earlier will help them sleep a bit later in the AM so that's why I had been putting him to bed earlier to help him get more sleep on the front end.  He's only getting like 10 hrs a night and I don't know if that's enough at this age??  I am really confused about when to put him to bed at night.  As I said, 6:30 or even 6 is early but maybe would help him catch up?  What would you suggest?

I will definitely take your advice and try to wind him down at 2.5 hours after the AM nap especially if he wakes crying in the AM or doesn't take that long of a nap.  Typically the AM nap is his best nap.  I hope (and pray!) this might help.  I had really only been doing a 10 min. wind down in his room.  I struggle knowing if he's not getting tired enough or too tired, etc.  But my feeling is that he's overtired/overstimulated for the PM nap.    I have to be honest and tell you that I get so frustrated because I feel like I can never go anywhere hardly because I am always trying to be back in time for lunch and then give him plenty of wind down time.  And I don't feel like it even helps most days!! 

If I do wake to sleep for the short PM naps, is that the same thing as going in at the 25-30 min mark and laying my hands on him to see if I can help him transition to the next sleep cycle?  I tried this a few times in the past and he still woke crying hard and would not go back to sleep but I admit I gave up after only a couple of tries.  Is he too old to do this with?  Do I just go in there at the 20 min mark and try to hold down his legs and shield his eyes? 

Thanks again and will wait to hear back.

Suzanne
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William born 3/23/05

[Caroline-Charlies Mummy]

Hi Suzanne,
I know, a year already .

After a lot of experimentation, I have discovered that 7-7.15pm is the optimum time for my lo to go to bed. He sleeps soooo much better than if he goes to bed later, but I think if he went down at 6pm, he'd wake up too early (for me anyway ). I'm usually happy if he has 12 hours at night, any less and he's overtired the next day, i think that's about right for this age. My suggestion is not to go any earlier than 7pm, but work hard on the early wake-ups if you can (I know, easy for me to say). If you can get 7pm-7am, that would be best case scenario, I think. When I was working on early wake ups, I literally used to go in there, give him his dummy back, soothe him as best I could and put him back in his cot. It was my gentler version of pu/pd (which he always found too stimulating). It took a while, but he gradually realised that I wasn't going to get him up at that time, so there was no point in waking up so early.

If I do wake to sleep for the short PM naps, is that the same thing as going in at the 25-30 min mark and laying my hands on him to see if I can help him transition to the next sleep cycle? 

Mmm, not quite, I don't think. With w-t-s, you actually go in there and make him stir (move his blankie a bit, or rub his back). You don't literally wake him up, just make him stir in his sleep, KWIM? It basically resets his sleep cycle, and he starts again.

HTH, let me know how you get on

[mom2william]

Well, today was a bit better bit I still have a question!  I kept him up 3 hours from AM nap (today was from 9:30-11:00 yay!) and kept it VERY low key from the 2.5 hour mark up 'til 3 hours when I put him in bed at 2:00pm.  He fell asleep at around 2:15/2:20 and slept 'til about 2:45.  He briefly cried out then went straight back to sleep.  I stayed hidden in his room today so I could watch!  He then woke again at 3:30 crying pretty hard and wouldn't go back to sleep.  My question is this: is that second wake up another sleep cycle he can't get thru??  It was about 40 minutes from his first wake up.  He slept about 1 hr. 10 min. so better but as I said still woke crying.  I'll see how he acts this afternoon.  How many sleep cycles do they go thru during a typical nap?  I'm wondering if I need to work on that second wake up to help him thru it?

As for the early wake ups, I have been ignoring him and don't go in there b/c he's usually not crying.  However, he almost never goes back to sleep.  I'm thinking maybe I need to just go in and reassure him and then leave or I may try W2S for the early waking. 

Thanks Caroline!!

Suzanne
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William born 3/23/05

[Caroline-Charlies Mummy]

I think you may have hit the limit of my expertise there (it had to happen one day ). The pm nap you have described I think I would have been happy with, especially as he had a good nap in the AM. I don't always associate him crying when he wakes up as still being tired, I usually guage that more on how he acts - is he nuzzling into you, still rubbing his eyes/yawning. I'd take it as a good sign if he cries out in the middle of his nap, btw - it means he's getting good at resettling himself - you've taught him well . If anyone more experienced has any more to add there, jump on in

BTW, lol on staying in there to watch him nap - been there, done that . People would think we were mad, wouldn't they

[mom2william]

Caroline,

Sorry it has been a bit since I replied!  Hope you're still out there somewhere! 

I really am still having issues big time.  I know this is a busy board but I would appreciate any help you could give me.  I've been sticking with 3 hours awake time between Nap #1 and Nap #2 and keeping it VERY low key from the 2.5 hour mark 'til I put him in the crib.  However, he is still only sleeping like an hour/ hour 15 min.  He slept 1 hour 15 min. today and it definitely was not enough!  He woke up screaming.  I try to calm him in his crib and it is next to impossible.  In fact, it is impossible!  I tried for 20 minutes to no avail.  I then tried calming him in my arms.  He did calm down some but would get worked up again.  While I was trying to calm him in the crib, he was furiously rubbing his eyes and tried to yawn several times but it was hard since he was crying so lustily!     He desperately wanted to go back to sleep but couldn't get there.  Do you think I need to gradually extend his awake time to maybe 3 hours 15 min. to see if that will fix the problem?  I mean, he just doesn't seem rested after an hour long nap in the afternoon.

I have posted a link to another post that might shed some light on my situation.  Let me know what you think if you have the time to read it.

https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=49988.0

Thanks so much!
Suzanne
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William 3/23/05

[Caroline-Charlies Mummy]

Mmmm, OK, if he's having a shorter nap than he needs, and waking up hysterical, then maybe we should approach this from a different angle, could he be overtired, and, for the next few days at least, need a shorter, not longer A time? That's what I would 'diagnose' if it was ds

Have you worked out how much sleep he is getting a day? From your schedule in the 1st post, I worked out that, best case scenario, he gets about 13 hours in a day, is that right? I think that maybe this could be too little, and needs to be upped. You've got bedtime pretty much OK, so it's those bloomin early wake ups that I think are messing things up. If you can get another 1 - 1 1/2 hours in the morning, I really think that would help. Have you asked for help in the Nightwakings forum? (I know if ds got me up at 5.45am, I'd certainly class it as a nightwaking .

If it were me, for the next few days, I'd work on getting him more sleep to catch up, and if that means shortening his A time, then so be it. You can always work on extending it when you get over this blip. HTH, let me know what you think.

[mom2william]

Yes, I think he is overtired.  Of course, we've had SUCH nap issues from about 3 months on that I'm a bit neurotic and paranoid and am always thinking he's overtired!     But with the way he's waking up from the PM nap especially, I think I am correct plus the fact of the early wakings.  Your assessment regarding the total hours he is sleeping is about right.  I'm thinking he gets about 12 hours total which isn't a whole heck of a lot.

So, today the first time I heard him in the morning was 6:00am.  He started acting tired around 8:00am.  I didn't get him in bed until about 10 minutes 'til 9:00am and he had a bit of a struggle going down.  He did sleep about an hour but woke crying.  He'd had a poop and a lot of the time he can't go back to sleep after that.  I gave him 30 minutes to see if he would go back to sleep but he didn't.  I then got him up, fed him lunch and he was rubbing his eyes about 12:40pm.  So I got him into the bed at 1:00pm today.  About 2.5 hours of awake time between AM and PM nap.  So we'll see how it goes. 

As for the early wakings, I think I am going to have to start going in around 5:00am to check and make sure he is actually still asleep.  Because I wonder what his ideal wake time for the morning is.  I mean, I don't always know exactly when he wakes up (I think sometimes he's just quiet?) so I'm always just having to go by his cues and sometimes he's overtired by the time of his first AM nap.  I did post on the General Sleep Issues forum regarding the early AM waking and the moderator there said she thought 10 hours of sleep a night was enough?    But his naps aren't great so I don't really agree with that assessment.   

I am going to try to go with your advice and maybe cut short the awake time some especially if he's getting up so early in the morning.  I get so confused with naps and awake times because I had posted back in December with some problems and people told me then that he wasn't sleeping over about an hour because he was not awake long enough!  Also, trying to keep a schedule of naps when your LO wakes up at odd times is not so easy!


BTW, our second choice of names was Charles 

Suzanne
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William born 3/23/05

[mom2william]

I am so frustrated and upset!!!!    This afternoon he took a 40 minute nap and woke screaming as usual!  I cannot comfort him back to sleep in his crib and he'll calm down in my arms but won't go to sleep even in my arms.  I am at my wits end!!!!!!!!!!!!  This has been going on for months and no end in sight!  I don't know if he did this today because he is over tired, undertired or what!  Aaaargh.

Should I try wake to sleep for the PM nap?  It's hard to know if I should always do it because sometimes he'll sleep for 30 min., cry for about a minute and go back to sleep for another 40-45 which makes the hour 15 min. nap thing.  He can't get back to sleep after that 2nd cycle and sometimes, like today, after the first cycle.  Is he too old to try the patting back to sleep (going in at the 25-30 min mark and patting)?  I tried this once or twice (quite a while back) and it didn't work but maybe I should try it again for a longer period of time?  I kept thinking his naps would get better after 6 months but they've always been bad. 

HELP!

Suzanne
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William born 3/23/05

[Paulsmama]

Hi Suzanne, just wanted to send you some big hugs.  How frustrating and difficult.

I don't know if this would work for you but I've found that if I can get to Paul before he fully wakes up most of the time I can help him through the transition if he needs it.  When we were having pm nap troubles I'd nap on the floor of his room so I could be there and help if needed.  He rarely woke screaming immediately, without a bit of quiet tossing first while still half-asleep, so if I could put a hand on him during the tossing it could help him make it through (he hates patting though).  I guess with some babies that would wake them up. 

Just another random thought, could it be something he's eating at lunch?  We've finally figured out we just can't give Paul peas at all because he gets gas that ruins his sleep at naps/night.  Sorry I can't be more help.   

[mom2william]

Thank you so much, Cynthia!  I am seriously going insane.  I feel like I've been just obsessed with DS's naps for months now.  I think I should go to him more when he has trouble transitioning.  I hated to do it but he was so horribly overtired tonight I put him to bed at a little after 6:00pm.  He fell asleep around 6:20.   He'll probably wake too early but I couldn't help it as he'd only gotten an hour and 40 min. sleep the entire day.  It was most definitely not enough.  We have church tomorrow morning and that always is a hard day because sometimes he doesn't get his full AM nap or takes a bad one and it's a looooooooong day!  But maybe Monday we can get back on track.   

As for lunch, I have been thinking I need to totally cut out caffeine as I am still BFing and he nurses just before his PM nap.  I've been have 1 cup of coffee in the morning  after he's nursed so maybe he's getting some caffeine in the afternoon.  Also, I tell you, sometimes his poops disturb his sleep!

Suzanne
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William born 3/23/05

[Caroline-Charlies Mummy]

{{{{{{{{hugs}}}}}}}}}} Suzanne, how has today been?

Don't worry if it's been a disaster - if you're out and about, it often upsets things.

Often 10 hours of sleep a night can be enough, it depends on the baby (and I know it would suit me ), but, for William, I don't think it is enough, I do think it is the cause of many of your problems.

I think you're right about the caffeine, at least eliminating it will let you know whether it's causing problems or not. Also, as Cynthia said, is there anything he's having for lunch that could be causing gas/tummy problems? I've eliminated pureed fruit at dinner time b/c it was (I discovered after far too long ) causing him awful tummy pains at night. 

There's not much you can do about his poops disturbing his sleep, but have you thought about 'helping' him go before he goes to bed? Either put him on a potty, or bicycle his legs and hold his feet to his head - this often produces something, and would perhaps help get rid of anything upsetting him in his tummy.

HTH, let us know how you are getting on

[mom2william]

Hey Caroline, thanks for your reply! 

Yesterday was interesting!!  He has a bit of a cold I think, now, so he took about a 2 hour AM nap yesterday.  (I think, I heard him wake a few times and I wasn't in there so it could have amounted to an hour and a half).  Anyway, for whatever reason he never took a PM nap!    He was upset going down but when I left, he calmed down and then ended up talking in his crib for 2 hours!!  He was up for about 8 hours straight until bedtime.  He never acted tired, either, even though he must have been! 

I did have some questions for you to see what you think. 

Should I try wake to sleep for the PM nap?  It's hard to know if I should always do it because sometimes he'll sleep for 30 min., cry for about a minute and go back to sleep for another 40-45 which makes the hour 15 min. nap thing.  He can't get back to sleep after that 2nd cycle and sometimes, like today, after the first cycle.  Is he too old to try the patting back to sleep (going in at the 25-30 min mark and patting)? I tried this once or twice (quite a while back) and it didn't work but maybe I should try it again for a longer period of time? I kept thinking his naps would get better after 6 months but they've always been bad.

What technique do you think I should try when it's clear he hasn't had enough sleep in his second nap?  He doesn't ever calm down with pat/shhh if he's woken up crying hard.  I've tried.  Also, do you think that we're still struggling with the 40 min. nap monster because he's not getting enough overall sleep?

Thanks for your input!  I am thinking if he can get 11-12 hours a night that would help, also, as you said.  I haven't heard him until 6:15am for the last couple of days so I'm hoping we're on an upward trend!  Pretty sad when 6:15am is an improvement! 

Suzanne
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William born 3/23/05