Author Topic: how to implement EASY with very wakeful alert 5 month old?  (Read 3843 times)

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Offline evelyn

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how to implement EASY with very wakeful alert 5 month old?
« on: February 28, 2006, 11:01:23 am »
i would love to implement EASy with my 5 month dd,  but i cant see how it would work for her...some days she only hsa 1 nap or other days she doesnt have any atall!  But she doesnt get overtired or cranky, she is always ready with a smile!  how could this routine work for us? i would love to have her on a more structured day before she starts her 2 days per week childcare in 5 weeks time.  She is a spirited baby.  any ideas would be welcome! cheers!
Proud mum to Alice 16/3/1999 and Lily 7/10/2005

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Offline Lªuren

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Re: how to implement EASY with very wakeful alert 5 month old?
« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2006, 21:16:23 pm »
Evelyn I have an alert 5 month old and have been on EASy since day one. All I can really do is let you see our routine and you can see how it will fit in with you.

The other suggestion I have is that for a few days keep a log of her day and you will probably see a pattern emerging i.e she may do particular things at roughly the same time every day.

My LO is 5months:

7am - wake
E 7:30am - bottle - 6-8oz
   8:15am - Breakfast - porridge mixed with 2oz of milk I usually add an icecube of fruit to this as well.
A 0830
S 9:00 (although has recently started staying up for 3hrs sometimes, if so nap at 10am)

E 12:00 - bottle - 5-6oz  (I give him as much as he will take)
   12.45pm - solids - 3 or 4 veggie or fruit ice cubes
A 1300
S 1400 (although has recently started staying up for 3hrs sometimes, if so nap at 3pm)

E16:00pm - bottle - 5-6oz (I give him as much as he will take)
  16:45pm - small yogurt for babies
A1700 (will sometimes take a catnap, but lately doesn't want them)

E 18.45pm - bottle - 10-12oz  (last bottle is split, started it when younger and it works well for us as he like to cluster at night) ::)
A bath
E 1940
S in cot awake.

This is his routine, however we do give and take some days when we are out or if he gets up earlier. He wakes himself up at 7am anyway. I have an angel baby and he is all smiles and giggles - then suddenly 5-10 min before nap time he starts to moan, not crying just a cranky moan. his wind down starts straight away in his cot, dark room, in a grow bag and his melody on. Always the same wind down routine so he nows its coming.


Hope this helps you.
Lauren x


Offline Deb_in_oz

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Re: how to implement EASY with very wakeful alert 5 month old?
« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2006, 21:54:50 pm »
 "But she doesnt get overtired or cranky, she is always ready with a smile! "

that was Olivia in the beginning (and that shows that there is some angel in her too)- this is really the core of them being spirited!  the problem is that although they can stay awake happily for a long time, they DO need daytime sleep to recharge their batteries and allow for brain development etc.  the problem usually comes when you go to put them down for a nap and they are truly overtired and hard to settle (or if they manage to settle they do not sleep for long if they have been up for 4 hours...)

it s your decision how to proceed but you really have 2 options - continue as you currenlty are (and if she is happy AND sleeping well at night AND feeding well then there is a lot in favour of status quo... if you are happy with it) or you start instituting regular naps in her day which will require trying to establish what the correct A time is for her to go down well for naps. if you choose this route i woudl try to put her down for her first nap around 1hr 45 from first waking and see what her reaction is - and work from that starting point. you definitely would want to start with establishing a good morning nap as then you work to avoid any overtiredness as you go through the day... she may protest simply because she has not had regular naps, or she may protest because when she stops playing... it hits her that she is actually exhausted (this still happens with Liv at 1 year old and on 1 nap - she will happily push through and play and dance etc and then then second i take her to her room for nap she starts rubbing her eyes and crying and letting off the steam and protesting and then 5-10 min later she is fast asleep) - it sometimes takes the parents of spiriteds insisting that the naps are required rather than watching for cues. i always knew she woudl drop naps early as she needed less sleep but definitely started at 5-7 weeks in working to get her to take a nap in every EASY cycle even if it was only 45 min (they usually ranged from a couple of 45s to 1 good long nap of 2hrs each day)

if you want to try to insititute a routine that includes naps in every cycle i am happy to help you work through it. if you want continue as you are that is ok too - how is he rest of the stuff (feeding, overnight sleep... what is her total sleep in average 24 hours, etc)
Debra - a New Yorker living in Australia married to a Brit

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Offline evelyn

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Re: how to implement EASY with very wakeful alert 5 month old?
« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2006, 22:43:05 pm »
Thank you both for your replies! It sure gives me some hope!  In answer to some questions...i would be quite happy to plod along as we are, but i know that i can read her cues and worry that if she doesnt have some form of routine that it will make it difficult for both her and her childminder with who she will be with 2 days a week from 8am til 6pm.
I find that now we have some bit of a routine as she has started on solids,  on the other hand we are having trouble introducing a bottle, she had been taking bottles of ebm, but when i decided to institute a set daily bottle shehas refused ever since... the haberman landed in the post today, so hopefully this problem will be resolved!
She generally goes to sleep by 8.30, usually while being nursed(big booboo i know) and usually has 2 feeds during the night but goes straight back to sleep.
she wakes between 6am and 7am, although there have been a few 5 am starts.
she wakes up full of the joys and has a good feed.

at 9am she has her porridgeand soon after has another feed(she is a bit of a snacker but seems to take in a lot during these feeds.
the days that she does have a nap it is after brekkie and can be for 2 hours
she has a bathe mid morning as evening baths send her wild!
we usually have a walk or other activity before lunch
lunch at 1pm followed by feed followed by lots more feeds throughout pm!  interestingly she isnt half as hungry if we are out and about....too nosy!
she might have a nap in her swing around 5pm until6pm while i do dinner.
6.15 has supper and daddy time
7.15 pjs
730 long long feed
i would really love your guidance and experience to help establish some structure for her...must dash ta!
Im back!  Had an early start this am...5.10am.  Awoke to lovely snow! 
did a dream feed with lily at 11pm last night with her new haberman and she took 2 oz, so we are thrilled, will keep at that for a couple of more nights before we start bugging her during the day!  despite the (little) dream feed she woke again at 1.30am for a feed.
Just a few questions now...
How long should i persist in trying to settle her for a nap? 
If she is still awake after an hour or so she might be totally contrary and might be hungry how do i know when enough is enough?
we havent been using the PU/PD method (ashamedly) would it not be too much to try and implement lots of changes at once?
She has lots of feeds throughout the day, i know she would get into the swing of 3 hourly feeds...but i am afraid of leaving her too long for the first few times, i cant see her napping if she is hungry.
it can take a while for her to bring up wind sometimes and the feed can drag on, would this disrupt the EASY method?
im sure i will have loads more questions but now my mind is blank.  Thanks again, evelyn

« Last Edit: March 01, 2006, 10:38:06 am by evelyn »
Proud mum to Alice 16/3/1999 and Lily 7/10/2005

Baby No. 3 due 20th May 2008.

Offline Lªuren

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Re: how to implement EASY with very wakeful alert 5 month old?
« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2006, 07:05:39 am »
Evelyn
The site is so slow tonight, so I have just emailed you instead, and will add to post when I can.



I find that now we have some bit of a routine as she has started on solids, on the other hand we are having trouble introducing a bottle, she had been taking bottles of ebm, but when I decided to institute a set daily bottle she has refused ever since... the haberman landed in the post today, so hopefully this problem will be resolved!

How did you get on with the Haberman, I used it when DS was younger and still do sometimes for smaller feeds. If that does not work you need to either; find a teat that is shaped the same as your nipple, this may be easier said then done or try using a sippy or straw cup instead.

She generally goes to sleep by 8.30, usually while being nursed(big booboo i know) and usually has 2 feeds during the night but goes straight back to sleep.  As long as she isn’t nursed ALL the time for every nap there should be a problem, by the sounds of it she isn’t.

she wakes between 6am and 7am, although there have been a few 5 am starts. she wakes up full of the joys and has a good feed. My DS id the same, but when he wakes at 5 or 6am I listen to his cries and it took me a while to realize they where not feed me cries, just moans, I would leaving him moaning for a few minutes and he would fall asleep again. Ant other times I use shush / pat to get him to sleep or if he is wide awake, I leave him and he falls asleep. Can you LO fall asleep independently?  For EASy to work you need to pick a wake up time and stick to it.

How long should i persist in trying to settle her for a nap?  When on EASY Tracey says to use pu/pd until the next feed cycle, if she falls asleep just before the next feed is due, then you wake her to feed her, have you’re a time then try to get her to nap when the next nap is due, she will some get the hang of the naps.

we havent been using the PU/PD method (ashamedly) would it not be too much to try and implement lots of changes at once? I think I would try and sort out the naps first, try the first one and build from there, from her wake up time, look to have her in her cot 1hr 45mins after, so you have 15min wind down time so you can start the 4 S’s. 
Set the stage - prepare you LO room for sleep; remove stimulation, darken room, lullaby....
Swaddle - (I used to swaddle now I use a gro'bag with his arms swaddled)
Sitting - Quietly without any stimulation, and when necessary..
Shush-pat

Is there anyway you can start the 4 S's 15 -20min before a nap?
 
She has lots of feeds throughout the day, I know she would get into the swing of 3 hourly feeds...but i am afraid of leaving her too long for the first few times, i cant see her napping if she is hungry. – Evelyn I will also post a planner to get her from 3hr feeds to 4hr feeds over the course of 2 weeks. You did mention she isn’t that hungry when out and may just need distracting to edge it closer to 3 then 4hrs.

it can take a while for her to bring up wind sometimes and the feed can drag on, would this disrupt the EASY method?
My DS regularly takes an hr to feed and it doesn’t disrupt his routine.

Hope I have answered all your questions, feel free to ask any more…. I have also added information on cluster and dream feeding if you need that.


Evelyn I don't personally d/f, but DS does cluster feed sometimes. Just had a look in TBW secrets of the BW page 184-5 and Tracey has this advice for you....

Tank them up. This might sound like a rather crude expression, but one of the ways we get babies to sleep through the night is by filling their tummies. To that end, when an infant is six weeks old, I suggest two practices:

cluster feeding—that is, feed her every two hours before bedtime—and giving what I call a dream feed right before you retire to bed. For example, you give her the breast (or a bottle) at six and eight in the evening, and the dream feed at ten-thirty or eleven.

With dream feeding, literally nurse or bottle-feed). her in her sleep. In other words, you pick your baby up, gently place the bottle or breast on her lower lip, and allow her to eat, taking care not to wake her. When she’s finished, you don’t even burp her; just put her down. Infants are usually so relaxed at these feeds, they don’t gulp air. You don’t talk; you don’t change her unless the night she’s soaked through or soiled. With both these tanking-up techniques, most babies can sleep through that middle-of-the-night it, teach feed, because they have enough calories to keep them going for are some five or six hours.



Hope this helps as a starter
Lauren  x
Lauren x


Offline Deb_in_oz

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Re: how to implement EASY with very wakeful alert 5 month old?
« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2006, 07:34:16 am »
hi

does your childminder plan to follow whatever you set up or are their other children  being cared for that willimpact on things (ie naptime is set at 12/1pm for 2 hrs or eal times are set by the provider )

just wanted to take that into account before i offered any real specific advice.

Deb  :)
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Offline evelyn

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Re: how to implement EASY with very wakeful alert 5 month old?
« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2006, 10:07:53 am »
This might be a short note, but will keep going til i can.... lily is sucsessfully asleep for her morning nap after just 7 PU/PDs! Feeling very chuffed! It took her a few minutes each time to calm down but all in all it took just over 20 minutes....and i had myself set up for the long haul, maybe i underestimated her(and me)
She was up at 7.20 am and i put her back to bed at 9.05. She is due a feed again at 10.20.

She had another dreamfeed at 10.30 last night and managed 2 1/2 oz from haberman, DH will try her during the day at weekend while i get myself out of the picture!  Im almost afraid to try her during the day wiyh it incase she refuses it, but must think positive.

Deb in answer to your question,, I'll be having afew days with our childminder in a few weeks time to go through our routine(am hoping to have one by then) and "getting to know you" time, she seems to be on the samewavelenght(but you never know for sure do you?). She will have Lily and my 7 year old Alice aswell as her own baby and her 4yr old daughter. 

Just a few  quick questions now...at night, how many hours should i allow between feeds?  Should I do PU/Pd until it is time for her feed?  Lauren you say to pick an awake time, so i should wake her in the am at the given time each day? Iknow i have more to ask but hacve blanked.

Thank you deb and lauren for taking the time to help, I am feeling much more confident and inspired by you both.  God... she is still asleep!!!
« Last Edit: March 02, 2006, 10:16:16 am by evelyn »
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Offline Deb_in_oz

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Re: how to implement EASY with very wakeful alert 5 month old?
« Reply #7 on: March 02, 2006, 11:27:51 am »
that is huge progress and so great.

how long was her nap for??  if she did more than 45 min meaning she was able to transition into another sleep cycle etc that is great. at 5 mo and being spirited i woudl aim for 2 naps of 1hr 30 and 1 x 45 in the day (does not have to be in that order. olivia often at that age did a big 3rd nap - apparently spiriteds have a tendency to sleep better in the late afternoon) so 1st goal is to get her down for naps in each EASY cycle, 2nd goal would be to get her to nap for longer than 1 sleep cycle as often as you can, 3rd goal is to stretch her to mionimum 3hrs between feeds and where she is capable (either due to a long nap or due to her lack of hunger at 3 hr mark) stretch her closer to 4hrs

about the DF/night feeds - the amount taken at DF can vary even for kids who take the bottle well. olivia was bottle fed for DF from 3 weeks old and woudl take anywhere from 2-6oz depending on the night. we found that as long as she took 2oz minimum we carried on - she had a lot of 3 oz nights... while she is still working on adjusting to the DF i would feed when she wakes if at least 3+ hrs since last feed - the theory being that she shoudl be able to go at least as long in the night as she does in the day (keep an eye out for her 6 mo growth spurt though)~ just watch to see how much she feeds and soon you will get the night in synch with the day


it is a good idea to pick a set latest wake time - i always made mine 7:30 so that we coudl still get in enough feeds and get to bed at a reasonable time. most days mine were up before that so was not often an issue  ;D
i have got to get to bed as i was out tonight and just checked in - will post more tomorrow. definitely keep on the track you are on - 1hr 45 A is a great starting point for a 5mo spirited one.
Debra - a New Yorker living in Australia married to a Brit

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Offline evelyn

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Re: how to implement EASY with very wakeful alert 5 month old?
« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2006, 12:04:11 pm »
wow! i know its only day one and i wont count my chickens...but she slept for 45mins that time and just went down again(12 noon) after only one PU!  Why didnt i do this before??? Sorry this page is turning into my diary!
i am going to set wake time for 6.30 as i will be starting work at 7.30(yuck), DH will be dropping her to chidminders, and i want to continue BF morning and evening.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2006, 12:09:14 pm by evelyn »
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Offline Lªuren

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Re: how to implement EASY with very wakeful alert 5 month old?
« Reply #9 on: March 02, 2006, 12:06:45 pm »
Well done to both of you ...

...look at us as your diary and keep us updated. ;)
Laurenx
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Offline evelyn

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Re: how to implement EASY with very wakeful alert 5 month old?
« Reply #10 on: March 02, 2006, 20:55:31 pm »
Dear diary! Whew!  Day 1 has gone extraordinary well...
7.20 awake and feed
activity
8.30, porridge
9..25 sleep
10.10 awke
10.20 feed
activity
12 noon sleep until.....
2.30, feed
4.00 butternut squash(current fav)
4.35 sleep (13 PU/PDs)
5.25 feed
activity
7.00 feed
pjs massage
7.45 feed
8.00 bed... asleep by 8.25 (10 PU/PDs)

Not too bad for day one, can't believe the stretch between feeds during the day, lucky for my nipples!
Proud mum to Alice 16/3/1999 and Lily 7/10/2005

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Offline Deb_in_oz

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Re: how to implement EASY with very wakeful alert 5 month old?
« Reply #11 on: March 02, 2006, 21:39:54 pm »
evelyn that is awesome, and it will be better for bith of you.  things will evolve over the coming weeks and nap lengths can vary... take it one day at a time and remember it is  a routine you are aiming for rather than trying to get herto be on a strict schedule so you are already getting to a great point already.  come back as you need help.  :)
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Re: how to implement EASY with very wakeful alert 5 month old?
« Reply #12 on: March 03, 2006, 09:31:54 am »
feeling really good... lil asleep for morning nap after 3 pu/pds....but now i have thrush...ouch, theres always something!
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Offline evelyn

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Re: how to implement EASY with very wakeful alert 5 month old?
« Reply #13 on: March 05, 2006, 21:17:26 pm »
Just a BIG thank you and an update!  Lily is doing so well on EASY, we havent worked on the nights yet, but during the day it works like a charm!  The most PUPDs has been 15 which isreally good isnt it/?  i kind of feel guilty that i didnt start doing it sooner, im thinking of all the lovely naps that she missed out on! 
on the haberman front she took 2 oz for DH yesterday while i was out. ithink she took just enough to keep going and pounced on me when i got home!

anyway a big thanks to youboth, i dont think id have done it without your support!
Proud mum to Alice 16/3/1999 and Lily 7/10/2005

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Offline Deb_in_oz

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Re: how to implement EASY with very wakeful alert 5 month old?
« Reply #14 on: March 06, 2006, 05:16:14 am »
you are welcome and i am so happy for you. keep it up and just look forward and not back (i tell myself the same thing)
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