Is 10.5 months too young to go to one nap? V spirited girl!

[obi1d]

Hi can anyone give advice on this, my lo doesn't want to go down early anymore ie. 9.30 but if she goes later then the afternoon nap is too late and she doesn't want to go to bed in the evening, fights and fights infact.  She's a very spirited alert lo and has never wanted much daytime sleep, but sleeps well at night.

Any comments welcomed.
Karen

[Mom to M&M]

I would think that, especially for a spirited one, 10.5 months is too young. What if you keep her first nap to 45 minutes or one hour tops and then still try for a decent afternoon nap? What is your current routine?

[Deb_in_oz]

Karen i just typed a huge lengthy reply for you and lost it on the posting... so this might be a bit more condensed 

It was exactly 10.5 mo that Olivia did exactly the same thing and we ended up moving to 1 nap cold turkeyand WE LOVE IT AND SHE LOVES IT! it worked so well for her.

basically what was happening: she had been napping at 9/9:30 and 1/1:30 and then no matter how much i tried to limit or move the first nap we struggled with the second nap and it was taking me back to how i felt in the early days when i could not figure her out  and Dh suggested one day that we try 1 nap and see how it goes.

we tried 12-12:30 and it went well (i think she slept 2hrs) and over 2 weeks we mostly did this with a couple of days where she seemed too tired and i gave her a morning nap and as had een happening we were back to problems in the afternoon, and one day i tried to do the morning nap she flat out refused and was htrilled when i gave in 5 min later (i could just tell she was not going to fall asleep). that day we decided to just commit to the 1 nap (she was 11 mo) and that was it.

she started off with a nap time of 12-12:30 and eventually moved to 12:30-1 and now it is 1-1:15 (and at that point i have to chase her to get her to go to her room - i warn her that it is almost sleepy time and she runs away to go play some more  ) she has made it as late as 1:30 with no problems.  She generally sleeps 2hr- 2hr 30 with rare 1hr 30 days (like today) and awesome occasional 3 HOUR NAP days  which are bliss! i felt like crying the first time she slept 3 hours - i never thought i woudl see the day.  also she transfered some of the sleep to her nighttime so she started sleeping in as late as 7:30 or so (had been 6:30-7), now she wakes anywhere from 6:30-7:15, naps 2-2.5hrs (falls asleep within 1 minute) and goes to sleep around 7-7:30 90% of the time with no fuss whatsoever

it really seems to suit her go-go-go ways. thisis a child who i struggled to get to 2hrs A time at 5+ months and she jumped from a 2 1/2 -3hr morning A time to 5-6+ hrs almost overnight. she sometimes gets fussy or tired around 10am but just needs a distraction or snack and gets completely recharged.  feel free to ask me anything i have not covered. i woudl never in a milllion years have thought that my spirited lo woudl stay up for 6-7hrs straight AND go down for a good nap (we both know the staying awake was not the hard part, it was getting the sleep to happen when they finally stop moving...)

[obi1d]

Hi Debra

Thank you so much for your reply, I was beginning to think I'd dreamt the whole thing...!   I was sure I'd read it somewhere that someone had had a similar problem at 10.5 months.

Its so reassuring to hear how it all went with you dd, I know its not a case of 'one size fits all' but you know I was feeling the same as you 'taking me back to how i felt in the early days when i could not figure her out'.  I've been feeling terrible that I can't understand what she wants in terms of sleep.

Your 3 hours are amazing, Lara's NEVER (well not since she's been more than a new born) slept for that long in the day. 1.5 hours is pretty much her max.  I'm going to persevere with it then and see how things go, I'm a little bit worried she's getting overtired however as she sometimes fights going to bed in the evening and its an hour or so later than usual by the time she goes, but she never makes up the time and wakes around 6am the next day!!   How can a lo go from 6ish thru til midday??  As long as I'm not being cruel by keeping her up.   It's also bad on the odd days when she'll only go down for 30 mins! 

Naps have always been a real big problem for us, both in terms of length and getting her there in the first place!  She just will not go down without me walking around the house quietly for a while then sitting quietly with her until she's really dozy or practically gone.  Trouble is, having read both BW books, I know its bad parenting, but when I've tried PU/PD (or more just PD as she's been mobile for many months) she just gets worse and more frustrated and cries harder!  Sorry to ask, but any suggestions on dealing with that and correcting some of the bad stuff I'm having to do??

Also, sorry, another question.....Lara has 7 teeth already and I've started brushing them.  What sort of routine did you do for your lo when you had to bring teeth brushing into the bedtime routine? 

Just to fill you in completely, if I can, here's our general day and the bad bits!

0615 - 0630 Wake
0700 - 0730 Milk
0830 - 0900 B'fast
1100 small snack

Sssssttttttrrrrrreeeettttcccchhhh it out til 11.30 - 12.00 for 1st nap if I can!
Walk around quietly and sit down until she's nearly asleep.  Put her down in her cot, sleep for anything between 30 and 90 mins.

1300 - 1330 Lunch

1500 Milk - sometimes she takes it all, sometimes none of it!

1730 Dinner/Tea

1915 - 1930 Milk til she's had enough, pulls off and puts her thumb in her mouth and gets dozy and almost out of it, put her in her cot.  Sometimes she turns over and gets up and that's it for the next hour of PD!  A couple of times I can see she just isn't going to go off (mostly when she's snuck in some sleep in the late afternoon) so I just get her up again until she's tired!

Now to add to the above problems, the little monkey wants to fiddle with my fingers all the time, I've tried every soft toy she's got to replace my hand but she then cries and sits up. 

Fortunately she generally sleeps through the night, but there are the odd occasions when she won't go back easily and I know its because of the holding my fingers thing.  I think that must have started when she holds my hands around her bottle and not hold the bottle herself.

Bet you wished you'd never asked now!!!!  In mine and Lara's defence though, she is a lovely, lively, very happy little cherub and very cheeky and funny and with her going through the night since 3 months, I thought, and everyone told me 'you can't have everything' when I would have the odd moan about naps and getting her off to sleep.  However she started waking at night again at around 6 months and I thought 'this isn't funny now its day and night!' Also, I used to be able to put her down awake and she'd go off to sleep until around 6 months and for some reason she started to fight and turn over and then came standing and here we are.....!

Sorry for war and peace, you don't have to reply to it all, its just good to get it all off my chest sometimes!

thanks for listening and advice before
Karen

[Deb_in_oz]

Your 3 hours are amazing, Lara's NEVER (well not since she's been more than a new born) slept for that long in the day. 1.5 hours is pretty much her max. 

we never had a single nap that long until we went to 1 nap. most of our naps are 2 - 2 1/2 hours now.

How can a lo go from 6ish thru til midday??  As long as I'm not being cruel by keeping her up.   It's also bad on the odd days when she'll only go down for 30 mins! 

in our case - Liv always used to get overtired if we kept her up too late, but with this it seemed there is another window for her- the "extremely tired / beyond overtired i just want to sleep" window. i woudl bet money that if we tried to put her down at 4hrs she might be cranky, but keeping her up this long seems to work easier than the old days of stretching her to 3+ hours. i really don't know if it is just Liv or lots of lo are like that  i think since we have been doing it for over 3 months now she has adapted even further and that is why she can now go from 6:30 - 1 with ease. if your lo wakes around 6, maybe try for 12 or so and see what happens. do you think she sill needs that long windown of walking around until drowsy - i woudl think that after being awake for so long she woudl just want to pass out (Liv does not even want me to sing my one verse of rockabye baby half the time - she is leaning to get into the cot so i just sing 1-2 lines  and say night night)

when I've tried PU/PD (or more just PD as she's been mobile for many months) she just gets worse and more frustrated and cries harder!  Sorry to ask, but any suggestions on dealing with that and correcting some of the bad stuff I'm having to do??

i have never don straight PU/PD. everything i have read and experienced with spirited children tells me it is a losing battle - they are too persistent (will not give in and just go to sleep) and get worked up very easily by the frustration of it all so you wind them UP instead of DOWN. i have used shh/pat with liv with huge success, i have used every variation of it (just shh, just pat, shh/pat, just holding her down, etc) when i have even attempted a variation on PU/PD it is only if she is crying and getting upset (vs. just fussing, sitting/standing, refusing to nap) where i will pick her up and calm her in my arms and re-do our routine of me singing rock a bye baby, putting he rin cot and saying "night night sleepytime" trying to basically hit the restart button to diffuse the crying. i know a few people on the boards have had PD success with spiriteds but i think it is rare and needs to bea certain kind of spirited IYKWIM

Also, sorry, another question.....Lara has 7 teeth already and I've started brushing them.  What sort of routine did you do for your lo when you had to bring teeth brushing into the bedtime routine? 

LOL this is where a big sister is handy. liv only got teeth at 11mo + (we are fast incrasing numbers and she got #6 + 7 and possibly more this week) and had spent those months seeng big sis brush her teeth every night (they have their bath together) so when we introduced a toothbrush a couple of weeks ago when she got tooth #4 she was thrilled - we brush them in the bath and give her the toothbrush to try to do it herself and then Dh finishes it off (he does baths) - she actually wants both her toothbrish and dd1  and screams for it too - so she actually llikes the whole thing.

Just to fill you in completely, if I can, here's our general day and the bad bits!

i reviewed your routine and thought i woudl share ours as i really think you might want to adjust slightly. i think you need to get the lunch calories in before the nap - she could be unsettled / short naps due to hunger of she only has a small snack before nap.

we do:
wakes 6:15-7:00 usually (mostly 6:30- 6:45 window but occasionally 7-7:15 window)
7/7:30 breakfast (if wakes late this can be as late as 7:45/8am)
8:30 bottle of milk (currently weaning off - some days wants it and some doesn't)
10 ish usually fusses from toiredness and / or hunger and asks for food so i give her a small snack to recharge her batteries - it ALWAYS DOES THE TRICK and she peps right up
11 ish lunch
12:30 bottle
1pm nap
3:30 average wake up
4ish - same as 10, she gets fussy and hungry and needs fuel so she has a snack of crackers, rice cakes or fruit
5/5:30 dinner
6:45 bath
7ish bottle (later if in bath longer)
7:15 bed usually

about your routine notes -
the 3pm bottle was the one olivia dropped and it was after she went through aperiod like yours of sometimes downing the whole thing and other days not wanting it.
as above, do you think she might be ready to change your windown routine? just a thought

Now to add to the above problems, the little monkey wants to fiddle with my fingers all the time, I've tried every soft toy she's got to replace my hand but she then cries and sits up. 

Fortunately she generally sleeps through the night, but there are the odd occasions when she won't go back easily and I know its because of the holding my fingers thing.  I think that must have started when she holds my hands around her bottle and not hold the bottle herself.

Liv started holding the bottle just before her first birthday (2 weeks before when we were on a trip and gave her the bottle in her car seat  ) i am ot sure about the fingers thing or the soft toys... I woudl work on getting her to sef-settle/soothe without any additional items but i just don't have any experience with comforters etc Neither girl took a pacifier and i never thought to try to introduce a lovey / toy. both my girls self soothe the same way strangely enough - they hold onto the front of their shirt and play with the fabric (and alex "sucks" as if on a pacifier but with nothing in her mouth) These days Liv will take her arm out of her sleeping bag and pull it inside the bag to access her shirt.  maybea props mod can help with that one 

Bet you wished you'd never asked now!!!!  In mine and Lara's defence though, she is a lovely, lively, very happy little cherub and very cheeky and funny and with her going through the night since 3 months, I thought, and everyone told me 'you can't have everything' when I would have the odd moan about naps and getting her off to sleep.  However she started waking at night again at around 6 months and I thought 'this isn't funny now its day and night!' Also, I used to be able to put her down awake and she'd go off to sleep until around 6 months and for some reason she started to fight and turn over and then came standing and here we are.....!

this is all Liv too. Dh was just commenting yesterday how in the last 3 months she has been so happy, funny, cheeky etc she has a real personality and is fiesty but adorable. we also had issues at the milestones of turning over, standing and then walking. is she walking yet - Liv started that at the same time as 1 nap so 11 mo old was huge for us (1 nap, walking, first tooth  all in a 1-2 week period) once she was wlaking though she seemed to be so thrilled with her true independence and that is when all these personality traits really started to shine as positives - although i am still drained of all my energy most days, she makes me laugh so much.



ask me anythign anytime and i will try to help as best i can - feel free to pM me as you go through this period if you want!

[tracefo]

We are having similar problems with our 9.5 month old.  She will nap only at 10am with a 7am wake-up and takes at least 30 minutes to get to sleep.  If she sleeps for 1.5 hours she won't sleep for the afternoon nap.  Is she too young for 1 nap, many people think so.
Tracey

[Deb_in_oz]

it is really your call. when i was debating this at 10+ mo i asked the midwife i see regularly and she said anytime aftr 9 mo is considered in the normal range. average ageis12 mo and most have attempted the switch by 18 mo (although a few go even longer on 2 naps) It ois one of those things that there is a WIDE range of ages whn it can happen.

in the latest BW book Tracy gave an example of a mom who was upset because herlo only took 1 nap (she was young too) and Tracy said as long as it was a long nap and she was happy then not to worry. your guide is your child. if one nap disturbs night sleep due to overtiredness then you woudl look to maybe get in a catnap inthe afternoon (can try the stroller / walk etc) as even 30 min can take the edge off for the evening.

it is all trial and error. at 9.5 mo i woudl probably first try the limiting of the first nap to 45min - 1hr ad work from there. sometimes that is the solution that postpones one nap for at least another month or 2 and is usually the first solution to try. so wake her after 45min and then try to figure out her ideal time for 2nd nap. that A tim is likely to be at least as long as 1st A time so if you have 7am wake up and 10am nap for 45min or so, you can try for 2nd nap anywhere from 2-3pm until you work out what is good for her. if the 2nd nap gets to be really late then you can always  limit that one too (to 1.5hrs maybe)  HTH

[tracefo]

Thanks, I think I will try to limit the first nap but the last time I did that she still wouldn't have the second.  I give it one more try and see what happens.
Tracey

[obi1d]

Hi Debra

I can't believe it, just typed a HUGE reply with Qs and Lara pressed Esc on my keypad!  I'll have to try later if she ever goes to bed, I'm having a really bad day with no sleep from her at all!  I'm not a happy bunny and neither's she.

Sorry!

[obi1d]

Hi sorry about earlier and my rant!  We are both feeling better now!

Right, I'll try again and condense it!

Thank you so much for your response once again, it really is a breath of fresh air hearing about Liv and your experiences as I was beginning to think I was the only one on this earth to have a child with such an individual and 'challenging' character.

I tried to stretch her out until 12.30 today with lunch around 11.45, but made a fatal mistake of having to go out in the car at around 11am and she snuck in (literally) 5 mins.  I thought, hey what's 5 mins, she'll still go down at lunchtime. How wrong I was!  I tried sitting quietly with her several times but she was not giving in, arching her back, fidgeting with her feet, constantly wanting to hold my fingers, etc. I even tried the old milk trick and still she wouldn't drop off, she looked like she would go on several occasions, but no she continued to fight it.  Eventually, after she deleted my long message, I had to get out of the house!  She slept for 10 mins in the car to my parents and probably 5 mins back.  I didn't want her sleeping too late as she wouldn't go down tonight.  I'm getting really lost with her and what she wants again, its so difficult to know exactly when to feed her and when to try and get her to sleep.

As it was, she did go down tonight without too much of a drama, but she was deadbeat and I'm concerned its the milk thats putting her to sleep and not her putting herself to sleep, IFKWIM.

With the teeth brushing thing, I didn't explain myself very well, sorry.  She's great with me cleaning her teeth and tries to have a go herself, my question was more around fitting it into the bedtime routine when the last thing she does before drifting off now is milk!  To do her teeth after milk will wake her up for sure.  Does Liv really just go straight down after milk then teeth??

I see you give breakfast before milk, any particular reason for that way round??  ...and the bottle after lunch...I stopped milk WITH her lunch as was told about the protein effecting iron absorbtion theory, so never introduced it anywhere else ie. like your 12.30 one, do you think I should?

I'll try with the change of wind down routine in the day, ie. less walking around, I did try it today but think I messed up with her getting that 5 mins at 11am.  What about the bedtime routine, how long do you take over that?  Maybe mine isn't long enough?  I don't bath her every night, but think I might start doing so, so she knows its the start of bedtime.

re: self soothe, Lara never took a paci either and up to 6 months I could put her down awake, but that stopped there and hasn't been the same since.  Yes I'll try props for that one.

re: milestones, Lara isn't quite walking, but sure to be within a few weeks, she stands and keeps her balance well and cruises furniture.  Goodness you had a tough time with all of those milestones at once!!  Do you still have your sanity or did you temporarily lose it???

I agreed, they do make us laugh, even though it is physically (and sometimes emotionally) draining, its worth it all.  I was close to tears a few times today as DH away in Cape Town for work since Sunday and not back til Saturday, so my sanity is wilting!

I pray that she sleeps through tonight as we were up at 4.30am this morning and then on and off til 6.30.  I know that's why I'm grumpy and with the PMT that I didn't used to get!!!!

Anyway, I'm sure there's more but I need some sleep.

thanks a million again for all your help and support
Karen

[Deb_in_oz]

I tried to stretch her out until 12.30 today with lunch around 11.45, but made a fatal mistake of having to go out in the car at around 11am and she snuck in (literally) 5 mins.  I thought, hey what's 5 mins, she'll still go down at lunchtime. How wrong I was! 

this happened to us a week or so ago when liv fell asleep for the return journey from errands - i was driving on empty so had to stop for gas which delayed it further so she slept on and off for 20 min. that was IT for the day - i tried twice more but no go. so from 6:30am - 7:15pm she had 20 min    the week or so prior to that i had some success transferring and resettling her after falling asleep in the car  btu i guess that is hit and miss
There are always going to be days that don't go according to plan. don't beat yourself up about and do whatever to get through the day (like you did getting out of the house and her sleeping in the car)

next time you are faced with that situation try giving her some of her lunch in the car and see if that recharges her or distracts her from the sleepyness (which might have been fine on land, but the motion of the car sends many a tired child straight to sleep)

With the teeth brushing thing, I didn't explain myself very well, sorry.  She's great with me cleaning her teeth and tries to have a go herself, my question was more around fitting it into the bedtime routine when the last thing she does before drifting off now is milk!  To do her teeth after milk will wake her up for sure.  Does Liv really just go straight down after milk then teeth??

 :-[we don't brush after milk but in bath before bottle. we did this with alex too. i figure she will be done with the bedtime bottle in the next 4-6 mo so don't stress about it much. i have never let the kids fall asleep with a milk bottle and i think that is the real issue - milk collecting in the mouth...  if you wanted to change things up you could do bottle, then a bath, then a story and bed.  Liv rarely lets us read stories to her though so we have yet to incorporate books into her bedtime routine (although Dh occassionally has luck with it. this is vs. dd1 who had a minimum of 3 books for ever nap and bedtime since 4 mo old)

I see you give breakfast before milk, any particular reason for that way round??  ...and the bottle after lunch...I stopped milk WITH her lunch as was told about the protein effecting iron absorbtion theory, so never introduced it anywhere else ie. like your 12.30 one, do you think I should?

In Australia the advice has always been to switch to sollids first sometime around 9+ mo as milk/formula becomes less important so you encourage good solids intake...   Th eonly place i ever read about separating the protein at lunch etc was Gina Ford and was yet another reason i did not like her book. i have never read in any baby weaning book or website any mention of separating their milk intake ... anyway - i will slowly be moving her milk to meals in a cup but have been avoiding it. aiming to do so this month starting with breakfast.

I'll try with the change of wind down routine in the day, ie. less walking around, I did try it today but think I messed up with her getting that 5 mins at 11am.  What about the bedtime routine, how long do you take over that?  Maybe mine isn't long enough?  I don't bath her every night, but think I might start doing so, so she knows its the start of bedtime.

i do the same windown at naps everyday and Dh puts her to bed everynight bit does similar - he gives her a bath, then dresses her (and creams her up, gives any meds she might need for teethign etc), gives bottle, sings a verse of rockabye baby and into bed she goes and on goes the noise machine.

re: milestones, Lara isn't quite walking, but sure to be within a few weeks, she stands and keeps her balance well and cruises furniture.  Goodness you had a tough time with all of those milestones at once!!  Do you still have your sanity or did you temporarily lose it???

i am already on meds for PPD but her earlier milestones were even more challenging 

I agreed, they do make us laugh, even though it is physically (and sometimes emotionally) draining, its worth it all.  I was close to tears a few times today as DH away in Cape Town for work since Sunday and not back til Saturday, so my sanity is wilting!

that is hard! make sure you do things for yourself while he is away so that you get mental breaks - do you have any family nearby (we don't) - even just having a friend or family member come and back you up or hang out coudl be a big help. I hope the rest of your week gets better until he returns.

[obi1d]

Wow what a difference a full night's sleep and a good day makes!  Lara had a good 1hr 45 mins at 11am and went down fairly easily as she was so tired!  What a huge difference to my stress levels and gave me time to vacuum the house!  She did originally wake after just 30 mins but managed to get her off again, unfortunately a little bit of handholding but she really needed the sleep as she woke crying (normally wakes happy).  Then was full of beans this afternoon due to a long rest, ate a good lunch, something new too and enjoyed the swings, slide and a trip around the shop in a trolley (she loves this!).  Bedtime was a little less straight forward but it's work in progress!  It still seems to be the hand holding thing, I'm a little concerned I've missed the boat on the self soothe thing - do you think I have?? but she must be able to do it as she sleeps through the night and goes through lots of sleep transitions. 

Anyway, thanks again for your help and comments, I agree on the teeth brushing thing and milk going to bed with them.  I figure that if you brush them before the milk at least its cleaning off the day's food, better than not doing them at all.  It would be hard to get Lara to sleep if teeth brushing was the last thing on her routine!

Wow for a spirited one, your lo is great at going to bed!  I keep thinking have I done something to make Lara so wide eyed and unable to go down, but I remember consciously putting her down awake when she was quite small and staying with her until she was asleep, ie. learning to self sooth, but somewhere along the line, she's forgotten and I haven't got her back on track.

Sorry to hear about your PPD, I was kidding, but there was an element of seriousness in there as I know I have found it very, let's say, challenging at times!  I went to my GP asking if I was depressed as I had been very tearful and was finding it harder not easier, but after asking me several questions she reassured me that I was normal and that I need my sleep - so true - 7 or 8 hours for me.  So... still feeling under the weather, I went to see a homeopath and she asked me LOTS of questions about my life and health as a whole, and well, it helped talking about it alone, but also the remedy she gave me seems to have kick started my body into being more like me again.  I was also having trouble switching off at night if I woke in the night I would lay here for hours, so she's given me a tincture for that.  I hope you're feeling better as each day goes by, and coping with two as well....

Thank you for your support as ever, yes I will do something for myself, you're right, so I've just arranged to go out with some other mums on friday evening for dinner, mother babysitting!

I'm sure I have a few other things I wanted to ask you, but I can't think at the mo, so I'll sign off.

thanks again, your help is really, really appreciated.

[Deb_in_oz]

hey there - sounds great. our computer dies so have been offline for 2 days  and am about to grab dinner as it is almost 9 pm  just got online finally and wanted to check on everyone.  will write again tomorrow