How to transition to 4hour easy with early wake-up and poor naps?

[debo620]

Hello, my 15week ds is (I think) ready to move to 4hour easy. he weighs 16lbs 4oz. problem is that he now wakes at 5:30am and has always been a poor napper. Here is how today went----can anybody suggest how I can get to 4hour easy and keep bedtime the same.

bed at 7:30pm, df at 10:30pm,awoke at 5:30am

awake 5:30am
bf at 6am
asleep at 7:15-8:00am but still tired
sleep 8:30am-9:10am but not deep sleep

bf at 9:30am
tired by 10:30am
asleep 10:30am-12:10pm---awoke screaming, slept 12:30pm-1:10pm

bf at 1:15pm
awake and content
sleep 3:15pm-----until 4pm

bf at 4:15pm
may or may not take catnap in stroller.

bath at 7pm,bf at 7:15, sleep 7:30pm

I am finding it impossible to use the 3-4hour transition guide due to poor naps. If naps poorly (even if I am able to get back to sleep-still broken) then trying to extend A time hard.
Also with 5:30am wake-up 4hour feeds just don't seem to map out to bedtime feed/bedtime.
Deborah

[HeatherC]

I think it's great that, even if his naps are broken, you are able to get him back to sleep.  Soon, all your hard work will pay off and he'll be able to transition on his own.  Way to keep with it!
As for stretching his feeds, you want to work in 15 min increments every few days.  You don't have to do it all at once.  By the time you make the transition, he may start napping better on his own.  You don't have to go exactly by the book.  I will say, though, you may need to put him to bed a bit early for a few nights since his naps are a little short.  This will prevent some overtiredness that just repeats as a vicious cycle. 
Can you try putting him down for his first nap at 6:30/45?  I know this seems early and against the purpose of the 4 hr routine, but 5 am is more or less a night waking, and I think he might need to go back to sleep sooner.  He's really missing out on some night sleep, so an earlier start to his first nap might make the rest of his naps go longer.  Get this, when my dd was struggling with 30 min naps (and me too!), someone recommended I put her down for her first nap 1 hr after her morning wake time.  I did it, and not long after, she started taking 2 hr naps, slept through a feeding one day, and stretched herself to 4 hrly feeds.  I kid you not!  Anyway, it's worth a try.  What have you got to lose?

[debo620]

HI Heather, thankyou for the advice.
Regarding the night sleep----if ds is asleep at 7:30pm and awakes at 5:30am---isn't that the recommended 10hours? This is why I am so confused. I am not sure if I should just go with the 5:30am wake-up or somehow try to get him to stay asleep longer? Maybe wake to sleep? Somedays when he wakes at 5:30--he is all happy to see me and clearly not tired. Other days-like this morning---he was yawning within minutes of being awake.
Somehow I just don't think I can get the 5:30am wake-up to work with the 4hour EASY. It would work out perfectly if it was 6:30am like it used to be.
Deb

[mommyoftwo]

Hi Deb -- saw your post .  I too was dealing with a 5 or 5:30 AM wakeup from my daughter.  Way too early for me.  I wanted her wakeup time around 6 or 6:30 so I won't have to change her routine when I go back to work.  Anyway, I finally got her to wakeup at 6 sometimes 6:30 in the last week by first going in and doing a combination of pat/sh/pat on the bum.  That worked for a few days.  Then, since she wasn't fussy at 5:30, I held off going to her room (advise from another mom).  I think these two things worked as she is now on track with her wakeup time.  Also, sometimes she's sleepy at around 6 or 6:30 so what I do is just shorten her A time and so far it has worked.

I want to let you know that your LO will get there in terms of short naps.  I haven't been out of the house that much because of sleep training.  Let me tell you though that it was so worth it in the end.  My DD is now clicking with her naps and night time sleep.  She is napping between 2 and 3 hours (with a 4 EASY) and sleeping through the night (DF at 11:00 PM).  I worried for a while there whether she was going to click with the routine or not, but now, I am so relieved.  She took longer to get the hang of things.  It was much faster with my son two years ago.  Naturally, I thought that she was going to be quick too.  Oh, how wrong I was!  It took most of my maternity time to get her going and I started when she was about 2 weeks!  Though she's trained now, I am still making sure everything is consistent with her because I am afraid that it will all go out the window after all the hard work.

You are doing a great job -- just keep it up.  I promise, there is a light at the end of the tunnel (sorry for the cliche).

[debo620]

hello, mommyoftwo,
Can you repeat what you did with the early morning wake-up? If my son wakes at 5:30am he is quite often just happy to play on his own--certainly not crying out but eventually sort of calling for us after 30min or so. I have tried leaving him but by 6 or 6:15 I figure I better just get up and get him, since I now know that he has been awake and that will be part of the A time. He doesn't eat well first thing in the morning either--maybe 5min. If he eats at lets say 6am--are you saying I should put him to bed within the 1/2 hour--by say 6:30?-----how then will I ever get to the 4hour easy with lets say a 10:00 am eating time. Did you ever try the w2sleep thing for the 5:30am wake-up?
Last night was terrible. He awoke at 2am and then fell back asleep on his own, but then awoke at 3am---I left him until he started crying at 4am---then I though he was hungry-he wasn't--ate only for 2 or 3min but was wide awake. I can't do much when he is wide awake but not crying anymore---I put him back to bed---fell asleep finally by 5am and then slept until 7am. Anyway, very atypical night.
Today he was back sleep by 8:15am--woke slightly at the 45min mark but seemed to fall back to sleep. However it was a very light sleep---kept on jolting, eyes at times partially opening on/off for the next hour. Still very sleepy but by now it is 10:00am--and I decided better try to feed him. Again he ate kind of poorly. Back in bed by 10:45am and now asleep at 11:00am. Maybe I should have continued to get him back to sleep and fed at 11:00am.? I am not sure how the rest of the day will pan out---probably more of a 3-3 1/2 hour easy.

Deborah

[mommyoftwo]

Early AM wakeup:
When my DD woke up at 5 or 5:30, I treated it as still night time sleep.  So, if she cried, I did the pat/shh combination until she went back to sleep even if it lasted until 6:00 AM -- which at that point, I fed her (for feedings, see below).  Then, about 45 min later of A, I put her to bed for her 1st nap.  But, if she woke up at 5 or 5:30 and wasn't crying, I'd leave her until 6:00 and then fed and then put her down again 45 min later for her nap.  I shortened (still do actually) her first A time to compensate for the early wakings.  For some reason, even at the 6 or 6:30 AM wakeup, she still seems tired so I never extended her A time.  Basically, she gets 3 hours of nap at this time.  It's during her second nap that I extend her A time to about 1 1/2 hours and then on her 3rd nap, I again drop her A time to about 45 to 1 hour.  It has worked so far.  Even her last PM nap -- she sleeps for about 1 1/2 (though, on occassion, she does have the 45 min catnap).

45 naps:
When she woke up from her 45 min naps, I'd do another shh/pat combination until she went back to sleep until 9:45 AM.  By this time, she'd be in her crib for a little over 3 hours.  I figure, as long as she is still sleepy/tired, I wasn't going to pick her up even if it meant she'll be in her crib for that long.  I did this consistently so that she'll GET the idea and to keep her on 4 EASY.  I tried doing the W2S, and it was a hit or miss.  It ended up frustrating me more than the pat/shh so I stuck with what worked for me.  A combination of pat/shh/pat in the bum worked well for me and my daughter and that's what I have been using all along.  I basically camped in my daughter's room for most of her naps.  I found that while I was sleep training (especially the naps), my DD was always tired from being fussy, so the long naps were okay -- it didn't rub her of her night time sleep. 

Also, I switched her to 4 EASY and dropped the middle of the night feed because she wasn't hungry during the day for all her feeds.  When I dropped her middle of the night feed and put her on 4 EASY, she was taking a full feed.  By the way, I always made sure that she had a full belly because pat/shh took so much out of her -- that's why having a full feed is so important.  Otherwise, she doesn't nap well without a full feed.  As soon as I switched her, her naps and nightime sleep improved dramatically so, there is a connection.  If your LO isn't taking a full feed at 6 or 6:30, he isn't going to be conducive to napping well if he is somewhat hungry still.

You just have to be consistent in everything.  patt/ssh (if that's your method) should be used to extend ALL naps including early wakings.  Thought W2S if it works for you is an added bonus.

I still keep her 8:30 and 11:00 PM DF.  Her bedtime is around 6:30 PM.  HTH. 

[debo620]

mommyoftwo,
 I definately think that the 4hour easy may correct alot of our problems. Did you just make this switch or did you do it gradually. Right now I am trying for feeding times of 6am, 10am, 1:15pm, 4:30, and 7:30pm. Should I just go fro the gusto and try 6, 10, 2, and 6pm--bed at 7pm. I am so confused as to how to implement the 4hour feeding schedule. I do not understand why my lo is not hungry at the 6am feeding---especially since he most often has not eaten since the dreamfeed.
Deb

[mommyoftwo]

That's my DD's routine -- 6, 10, 2, 6.  I dabbled with the 3 1/2 EASY and found she was still not hungry so I went straight to 4 EASY.  I thought it was going to be a difficult transition, but turned out, it was easy for her.  I think not being hungry every 3 or 3 1/2 helped with the transition. 

As for your son not hungry at 6 or 6:30, I'd try the 4 EASY first and see what happens.  If not, then you can try lessening your son's intake during the DF.  If that still doesn't work, try dropping the DF (or if you DF at 11, maybe you can try 10:00 or earlier too).  At this point, what's one or two nights of trial and error?  At least you'll know if it works or not, right? 

[debo620]

well I think I will try the 4hour easy, Unfortunately, I have found that if son is tired he will not eat. Today, slept from 11:00-11:45--tried to get him back to sleep until next feed at 1pm or so but couldn't. Wouldn't eat at 1pm due to being tired. Screamed from 1pm-1:30 while I ssh-patt over my shoulder. Fell asleep on me (and I let him) at 1:30pm, now I am not sure when he will eat again. He probably will awake at 2:15pm--maybe I will try again and feed then. Or do I try and get him to keep on sleeping and maybe feed at 3:30pm or so. What a terrible day.
Deb

[mommyoftwo]

I am sorry that this is so hard on you.  I'll probably just let him sleep then if it is affecting his feeds.  Tomorrow, you can start anew but hopefully with a really good feed so that his transition to 4 EASY or even 3 1/2 will be smoother.  Let me know what tomorrow brings.