Opinions wanted please - DH & I need to agree!

[franchick]

Hi all

I have been reading this site for many months now and have all of Tracey's books, bar her toddler one. I have also read Gina Ford's books, 'The No Cry Sleep Solution' and a couple of internet books which study all of the 'great' sleep thinkers, so I feel I am fairly well informed.

Here is my DD's routine / background etc with my questions far, far below!!:

My DD is almost 1 year old (on 11 June) and is a very sweet darling, full of fun and life and we (and everyone!) adore her to bits. She has a generally busy week as both me and my husband work full time. On Mondays and Tuesdays she stays at grandma's house (my DH's mother). On Wednesday she has special daddy day at home with DH. On Thursday's and Friday mornings she goes to nursery and Friday pm and the weekend she is with the whole family. She has been doing this since she was 5 months old. As such, establishing / maintaining a routine has had its challenges. However, on all days apart from her nursery days, her routine goes something like this:

between 7 and 7.20am Wake (sometimes earlier, usually only if ill / teething etc)
8.30am Breakfast
10.00am Milk
11.30am Lunch / Snack (sometimes she doesn't want much to eat then)
12 noon Nap for 2.5 - 3 hours (2 hours on grandma's day, 1 hour only at nursery!); usually takes milk before nap
2.30 / 3.00 pm Snack / Lunch (depending on how well she has eaten earlier)
4.00pm (sometimes) Milk
5.30 or 6pm Tea
6.15 pm Bath, then quiet play
7.00 / 7.30pm Bed time, after milk (sometimes later)

Nursery have a completely different routine for food / snacks, which I just go with the flow for. Also, not sure when grandma feeds DD, but I think it is similar to my routine. Overall, she is very healthy and growing well, so something must be going right!

I didn't make a specific effort to transition her from 2 naps to one, it just sort of happened. She can sometimes do 6 hours awake time, but can be cranky / overtired / wound up and difficult to settle. I try and keep her to 4.5 / 5 hours awake time if possible.

Anyway, to get to the point.... (eventually!). DD is a typically 'accidentally parented' baby when it comes to sleep. I tend to lie down with her and give her milk and cuddles. DH cuddles / rocks her to sleep and Grandma does a mixture of the two. Nursery try and get her to go down on her own, but will cuddle her if she crys. She normally doesn't have a problem falling asleep in the car (say on the way home from nursery on a Friday) and I can easily pick her up and put her in her room.

DD was a reflux baby which I found stressful to deal with (and I developed PND, now off the anti-depressants - yeah!), but I fortunately researched this highly. She pretty much got over this at 8 months. The upshot, though, was that I constantly worried that she wasn't eating enough (as she would only take small amounts at a time) and often used the breast / bottle to sooth her to sleep, hence part of the accidental parenting. (as a tiny infant, she was a perfect 3 hour EASY, but when reflux was bad, she would feed every 1.5 hours or so).

DH and I did successfully implement PU/PD when she was around 7 months, which meant she was going down on her own with just shouting / no crying for a good couple of weeks until she was teething / had a cold or something and we have never been disciplined enough to go back to this.

At night time, DD wakes 2 or 3 times a night, often for milk (I know she doesn't need it at her age - I do try and water it down), sometimes just for cuddles. She usually settles within 5 - 10 minutes or so (unless she is ill, can take 1 hour or more - at 5 months or so, she had a terrible habit of being awake for up to 2.5 hurs at 3am, but we're over that now!). As I need to get sleep in order to work, I have let myself slide into a habit of going to her and staying with her in her room for the rest of the night (often from 11 pm to 7am or sometimes, 12 midnight or 1am onwards). I generally manage to get 6 - 7 or more hours sleep a night (not too bad?!). She can sometimes settle on her own with me just lying next to her, as long as she is not over-tired.

DD sleeps on a mattress on the floor in her room, although she used to (I know, I know, Tracey would pick up on that one!) always sleep in her cot (but that meant I got less sleep, so I gradually moved her to the mattress for selfish reasons).

Generally, I actually don't mind the arrangements as they are - everyone is pretty happy most of the time. I am usually a little tired, but coping just fine with life. I'm not even sure I want to change things, but I feel I ought to so that:

1. It will be easier for others to look after DD overnight (grandma has done so maybe 6 or 7 nights in total and always says she doesn't mind, but I would like it to be easier for her)
2. I can get more unbroken sleep
3. I won't be worrying about what other people think (which I know I shouldn't anyway!).

In DD's life, she has had maybe 5 or 6 nights of 'sleeping through the night' from dreamfeed onwards. I stopped giving an official dreamfeed 2 or 3 months ago and just let her wake me when she is ready. I almost wish I never started dreamfeeding her, as she used to wake at 1am and 5am as a newborn, then was down to just a 4am waking before I really pushed on with the dreamfeed. Since then, I think her nightwakings have actually got worse!! (oh well, c'est la vie!).

So, what do you think I / we should do?

Dr Sears would probably highly commend what we are currently doing. Mrs Pantley says that ALL babies eventually sleep through the night. Tracey would say that independent sleep is a great gift.

I want to make sure I am doing the right thing for DD and for the whole family. I do worry that I am stripping away some of DD's independence, but also love how happy she is. She has never had any major problems with separation anxiety.

DH and I have talked about PU/PD, wi/wo and a combination of the two with various adjustments etc. DD is a screamer / fighter with PU/PD and, being very active (she is almost walking, constantly cruising), we are a little (OK, a lot) scared of PU/PD / wi/wo now (I tried just a little PU/PD recently, or, rather, PD, but stopped immediately when she banged her head on the crib and started crying).

Does anyone have experience of co-sleeping and when it 'naturally' stops? What happens to babies who don't learn independent sleep? Will I have to do something more 'drastic' when she is older? Does anyone have any ideas for making PU/PD etc 'easier' for us?

Oh dear, oh dear.... as you can see, I am quite torn. On the one hand, I would love it if I could not get up in the night, on the other, I don't mind and quite like the cuddles.

I realise that I don't sound committed to changing things, but would love to hear your thoughts. Sorry this post is sooooo long, but I have been thinking about it for a long time (about 1 year?!).

Everytime my DH and I talk about this (usually if I have had a bad night), we never manage to get our plan together as I know that if we are going to change anything, we have to do so 100%. He thinks that if she gets too upset, then we should resort to cuddling / rocking / feeding etc., but I know this will just foil our hard work.

Here's hoping you will all be able to help us out.

Many many thanks in advance!

[Richelle]

Hi Frances,

You sound like a wonderful mommy, what a lucky little girl!!

I am not sure if I have any advice for you.  I usually dont like to get 'preachy' unless someone truely asks for my thoughts.  WHat I am saying is that I think that you need to decide whether or not your really want to change things or carry on as you are!

I personally don't have any experience with co-sleeping so don;t have any words of wisdom for you on that front.

I AM going to pop this over to the toddler sleep board as they may have some insight's for you.  I know it is hard to think of your little one as a toddler but she will be June 11th so hopefully someone will have some great thoughts for you.

Richelle

[Florencia]

Hello Frances and welcome to toddler world!

Toddlerhood is such a different chapter to babyhood and noone prepares us to that. Even temperament of babies change! So does the sleeping habits. If Katie had some issues as a baby but you sorted them out, they don't have to play a role now in her toddlerhood.

Aside from a method, I think you should talk thoroughly wiht your husband how would you like things to be in the future. I know you say you want more freedom for nights out but you also enjoy sleeping with her. That's a tricky choice cause consistancy is the key for any sleep training techinque. Also Tracy was an advocate for trying whatever works best for the family as a whole. If independant sleep causes you too much troble to implement or troubles you or your husband, then you should wait until you all are ready.

Any method you choice (you seem to know them pretty well) has to take on consideration your daughter's temperament as well as yours. Once you've picked one, you have to be commited 100% to not look back cause if you do it for a couple of hours and then go back to the "old ways" there's no point, and you've only have stressed you and your child for no reason. Also if you pick one method, you have to expect some tears and sleepless nights, cause you'll be changing the way things are done and your daughter will resist that. You have to repeat yourself that is for her own sake and you will just be teaching her an easier way, even if it seems rough at the beginning.

My advice would be returning her to the crib and you can sleep next to it in the mattress for a few nights, then slowly move the mattress nearer to the door every third night until you're eventually out of the room. Treat night wakings the same, when she wakes, you comfort her with some pat/shs and sleep in the mattress, but with her sleeping in the crib. But only try that if you're convinced you're willing to do this at least for a couple of weeks consistantly and again, it has to be something you and your dh agree with.

Don't know what else to suggest but be sure we'll be here for you whatever your choice is. Good luck!

[franchick]

Hi there

Thank you so much for your replies. You're right - DD is a toddler in a few days - how strange!

I think the whole idea of PD taking a couple of weeks or more is what is putting me off making a change. There have been evenings when DD is over-tired for whatever reason, and I have sat with her for an hour or more helping her get to sleep, with her thrashing around and crying and not wanting any help from me, other than being in the room with her, so I know I can handle that from time to time (although it is still difficult...).

I think what bothers me is doing this 2 or 3 times a night for 2 weeks or more. If I took the time off work (which I could arrange, I'm sure) purely to dedicate to this, I could do it. What I know I would struggle with is doing this whilst I am at work. Part of me wishes I knew that it would only take 4 or 5 nights, but I am aware it could take much longer. Ho-hum. I have explained this to DH (he has read parts of the BW books, but I am much more of a researcher than him) and I think he sort of believes me it will take this long, but also isn't 100% convinced...

I was reading my Dr Sears book last night which did give me some comfort that eventually ALL babies / toddlers grow out of night feeds / waking / will eventually become independent sleepers when they are good and ready, but I realise this could take 3 or 4 more years. Dr Sears believes that allowing this to happen has led to some of the most emotionally secure kids he has come across, but I think that there has to be a middle line between this and other options. Overall, I am a big believer in the BW techniques and thoughts, but I think I am too much of a coward to do some of the things sometimes.

Anyway, enough of me babbling on (although it's a release). It's just great that everyone here is so accepting of all circumstances.

I think you are right re the big chat with DH - we do really need to work out what we want in the future for DD and then go for it with a plan, whether that is the status quo or whether change.

Any other opinions or thoughts from anyone would be really welcome, particularly what people have done with a fighter for PD (I know one mummy mentioned just a brief brow stroke as the main element of comfort, but I would love to hear what other people have done / tried).

Thanks again

[Florencia]

Hey Frances,

i totally hear you about the working thing. I had to book a FULL month off my work (of course it was without payments, they're not that supportive ... although it should be a benefit for working mommas who are sleep deprived, don't you think? )

Anyways, i can only talk about my own experience. I, like you, was terrified that things got worse than they were. And they got LOL, but surprisingly, being off work gave me another perspective, i wasn't all that stressed out and it took a full load off my back. I knew that my job during that month was to teach ds "to sleep" and i had not to worry about: i've been 2 hours in this room and need to iron my clothes, do my hair and fly off the traffic... so yes, not having another responsability does help with sleep training.

Now that i look back and see all the benefits i got from the hard work i tell you, i would do it again, eyes closed. It was totally worth it and yes, it got worse before it got better but at least things started moving and that sense of "im never gonna sleep with my husband again" dissapeared. Also, before that "sleep kamp" every little thing that happened around ds's sleep stressed me like a nuts. Now, that we have some issues, night wakings etc, i take them with more confidence and less stress and i can tell you i found a new confidence in me to deal with those things.

But i would never suggest you to start with some sleep training techinque if you and you're family are not 100% sure that this is what you need to do and are willing to not look back.

If you need support or a shoulder to lay on, be sure you'll find it here, whatever your choice is. We all know what you're going through, otherwise none of us would be here!

HUGS 

[deb]

Would you need to take off work completely? Would you be able to maybe do half-days, take your LO to her daytime care and get some rest at home and then go in for the rest of the day? Just a thought.

[imsmum]

Likewise I agree with Florencia.  When to sleep train is up to you taking into account temperment (yours ,dh's and dd's) but once you make the move you and dh need to be on the same page and to stay consistent.

As to when you do it you have to consider your circumstances over the next say 2 years while your dd will be napping.  Right now she has the luxury of 1 on 1 care 5 days a week.  Is this likely to change?  Is she going to be going to nursery more frequently?  Is there going to be another lo who will also need a caregiver's attention?  Is your mom and husband going to continue with the care or will you need to get an outside caregiver?

As far as outgrowing co-sleeping in my experience, limited as it is, that doesn't naturally happen.  My older dd who is now 5 would wake in the night and crawl into our bed.  We were ok with this because we were all sleeping well with that arrangement.  When she was 3 I became pregnant again we decided to put a stop to this because we knew dd would be disturbed by my feeding the baby.  We started to take her back to her room and leaving her after resettling and we experienced lots of tears then.   A coworker still has his 5 year old climbing into bed with them.  My nanny's 8 year old would only sleep with her or her grandmother and only just stopped because my nanny was getting remarried. So I think that you will have to do some sleep training at some point.

Was our experience sleep training harder or easier because we waited so long?  Hard to say.  It was probably harder on my daughter to give up such a long standing prop.  In some ways easier on us because we could at least explain the rationale behind the move.  What finally worked was explaining that dh and I would be a lot less cranky with her during the day if we were getting a good night's sleep!  Overall it wasn't a particularly protracted process but I think that is because she has an "angel"  temperment.  Now with my younger spirited daughter, I would expect such a process would have been much harder.

In your first post you identify the reasons for sleep training.  I think Tracy as well as other sleep experts suggest you ask the opposite question:  why do you wish to continue with the present sleep arrangement?  I sense from your post that your dd's potential distress is an issue.  If you think that you couldn't do sleep training that involves a lot of tears why don't you try gradual withdrawal or the mattress method that Florencia mentioned?  The benefit is that your daughter is already used to you sleeping on the mattress in her room. 

We did something similar with our  older dd at 14 months.  She was used to falling asleep on my breast at night.  So one night I put her in awake.  She stood up, upset.  I laid her back down but held on to her--I was half in the crib myself!  So she fell asleep in my arms but in her crib.  Each night was less and less so eventually I wasn't holding her, just standing next to the crib then farther away then out the door but standing there.  There was a lot of her popping up and down but not so much crying so  you may want to try somehting similar.  The mattress method is probably better with you because your daughter is used to it and you can do it in the middle of the night as well.

Regardless of whether you continue to co-sleep I would cut out the night feeds.  You can continue to dilute with water and then you can just comfort with your presence.   

Finally I think that emotionally secure children include sleep trained children.  Tracy talks about the difference between responding to your child and  "rescuing" them.  We're here to help them along their way and we need to be there for that.  But as your baby becomes a toddler you become less of the "doer"  and more of the "coach". She is going to want more and more independence, so your role changes too. Maybe if you think of being your dd's sleep coach that will help!   

[deb]

It sounds like you and DH might both do best with a strategy from The No-Cry Sleep Solution - and since you've already read it, you're ahead of the game. Bear in mind, this is an already-tired mom writing here, but the book did help us when pu/pd couldn't because of my own personality and because Josie was so Touchy that is wound her (and me) up so much. At the very least, it gave me a sense of perspective; the 10-day target helped me set a realistic time frame for sleep improvement.

Please let us know what you decide to do and keep us posted if you're comfortable doing so. I know I'd love to know how it goes!

[franchick]

Hi everyone

Thanks very much for all your thoughts and ideas. It's a very good point to ask why I would want to continue with the current situation and you have hit the nail on the head with me not wanting DD to go through a lot of distress (and me not wanting to put up with being really tired, albeit for a short period of time).

I very much liked the No Cry Sleep Solution but have lent it to someone at present, so can't remember everything in it. Certainly I know that some of the ideas (like the Pantley Pull-Off or whatever it was called) definitely worked in part for us, but I still have never managed to see a plan through to 'the end' before teething or illness has intervened. However, I know (now!) that teething / illness or some other thing is ALWAYS going to pop up, so it's a question of seeing a plan through regardless.

I am keen on gradual withdrawal, but am still struggling with how to settle my DD in her crib without a lot of distress and without rocking / cuddling or feeding to sleep, other than by way of PD.

As I mentioned before, DD gets really active and even more so the more tired she is, so keeps bumping her head or whatever, and then ends up in hysterics - how can I help her become physically calmer? She will calm in my arms if she is not over-tired, but the minute she gets to that stage (which is like a switch), it can take a lot of effort to re-calm her (she wil archin my arms, almost to the extent that I could drop her - she's very strong!).

I try and ensure that I get her to bed before she is over-tired, but sometimes the process of getting to sleep can make her over-tired, even using my current method of warm milk, cuddles and lying down together (there are times when I have to hold her down to do this as well).

I guess what I am saying here is that I am encouraged by your words to actually seriously think about making a change (thinking about the future, daycare is bound to change over time, even though I would rather it didn't, and we would love another wee baby, so helping two of them sleep at night in an active way would definitely be hard work.... I am steering myself to change more and more), but what I now need is some practical ideas for physical calming that will help towards the end result.

DD is about 24 lbs / 10 or 11 kilos or something like that (75th percentile) so PU to cuddle then PD is still possible, but I imagine would become very tiring for me or my DH over, say, a one or two hour period. PD on its own might be too upsetting for DD. Do you think it would be possible to do gradual withdrawal with her staying on her current mattress? [something I have thought about although I know Tracey recommended only moving to a big bed at 15 months if the youngster had never slept in their cot].

Re working part-time whilst sleep training, that is definitely an option. I have already mentioned to my boss that I may require to take some parental leave (unpaid) at some point in the future and I can take up to a month unpaid from my job anyway, but I would have to arrange this in advance.

I could probably just work afternoons or in the middle part of the day and DD could carry on her current child care arrangements, but just start later each day. Alternatively, I could take a week off, then work part-time for two weeks, so I could supervise her naps for the first week as well. Finally, I am off work on holiday week commencing 17 July (but we are going away to visit friends towards the end of the week), so I have a few golden days at the beginning of the week to at least get things underway. This last option is the only one currently arranged - if it was you, would you start then, or would you wait til you had arranged a longer time window to work on it?

I've just realised that I can read your posts below this post, so sorry I haven't replied to each of you individually - I will try and do this next time, but here are some quick messages:

deb - thanks for your words and yes, I will keep you all posted! Thanks also for part-time idea.

imsmum - thanks for telling me how you helped your wee one to sleep in the crib - when you held her down, did she fight a lot? hurt herself? what did you do? did you pick her up at all? how long did the training period initially take?

Florencia - I have read some of your other posts and you give great advice and support. It's good to know that other working mums are doing this too - and also good (in a way, iykwim) that you had to take time off work to achieve the goal (I think DH thinks that this might be an unnecessary step, but I am wary of commencing and then not being able to see it through because I am so tired and have to work).

So, I will wait to hear if you have any ideas for physically calming etc. In the meantime, I am going to work harder on reducing the night feeds from tonight (i.e. water down a little bit more, try and calm her first before offering any milk). I am then going to look at my work diary and talk to my boss about whether some time off / part-time is likely to be possible. By the end of next week I want DH and I to have agreed a plan and when we are going to do it.

Thanks very much everyone

[imsmum]

Hey Frances 

The details of sleep training Ila are already getting a bit lost in the mists but to the best of my recollection she kept trying to crawl up me commando style which is why I eventually put myself half in the crib with her.  She was always used to falling asleep in my arms so she did that but she was in the crib too.  That was defintely to hardest night--it was such a shock to her, so please prepare yourself for at least that inital reaction from your lo. 
I'm a bit rushed now but I'll give some thought to question about the mattress and how that might work and post later.

[Florencia]

Frances,

I'm also in abit of a hurry (boss can't understand i need to do my job at bw LOL )... as for physical comfort, Manolo would arch his back in the way you're describing while in the past he would be pleasantly rocked to go back to sleep... i was afraid i would drop him (he's too strong too). I restorted to put him down in the crib (sometimes he'd be reluctant and i had to use some force to actually lay him down, he'd cry, etc but i managed to lay him down) and rub his back softly up and down. Other days he'd be squirming around the crib and i would rub his forehead, ears, neck (whatever he'd let me)... usually he'd be crying out loud and for a couple of minutes (that i had to track cause it seemed like 30 for me) everything i do would be awful but i kept doing and doing until eventually he calmed. I guess what winded him up more was the fact that i was changing everytime he cried. I just picked a way and comfort him with my voice (shsh, it's ok) and set a 5 minute goal. If in 5 minutes he didn't seem comforted, then i tried another thing. But even if his crying was less hysterical, i considered that a move forward so i would keep doing. The worst part is the first couple of days, after that, they get your message and you start being more confident.

HTH keep us posted!

[franchick]

Hi - quick update

I wrote earlier, but the site crashed before I could post... so shortened version this time!

DD has actually been waking up less and less over the last few weeks, going down to once a night at about 1.30am and.... last night, she slept ALL NIGHT LONG!! Yeah! She went to sleep at 8pm (late nap...) and got up at 7.15am - she has NEVER done this before (the only other nights she has sleep 'through the night' were after a dreamfeed) - I am THRILLED! I know it's only one night, but.... you never know.

I've noticed that she has been starting to want to do this herself anyway - she moves away from me when she wants to go to sleep. What I have been doing, as well, is a mini wi/wo if she is playing instead of settling down to sleep. I wo and say night night, then she crys out (not crying, just shouting), then wi and say, well, you have to go to sleep now. I have been doing this for a few nights, maybe only wi/wo 5 times or so, then staying with her til she is asleep, and it definitely seems to be helping a lot.

So, my plan now is threefold:
Last drink of milk to be moved from her bedroom to the living room or something (I still think she associates milk and sleep)
More wi/wos until she can settle quicker / more on her own
Move gradaully away from mattress until I am out the door

I am planning to spend 5 - 8 weeks doing this (very slow, I know, but this will work for me).

On another note, went to a party at the weekend and got peeved with another mum who told me off for NOT doing CC - she said that I am only prolonging the inevitable. I said that I had read a lot of negative things about CC, but in the end I just tried to ignore what she was saying.... now want to phone and say, hey, guess what? MY DD can sleep ALL night long and we NEVER did CC!! (only joking, but she really annoyed me....).

Do you think my long term 5 - 8 week plan will work? THANKS everyone for your support.

[imsmum]

Frances--wonderful news!!

I've done a simialr wi/wo when dd is really tired and I know she will need some help settling by me staying there butwants to paly around first and I found that definitely helped so keep it up.  as far as the milk part of the plan if you feel she still associates milk and sleep by all means move the feed to a different location.

the biggest and hardest part of the plan will be moving out of the room.  I think you will find moving the mattress away pretty quick but what you might get is a lot of pooping up in bed once you leave ( that happened with my older dd).  I think I stood outside her door for a month so that when she popped up I could reassure her that I was still there.  So get yourself a chair and a book and be prepared for the long haul!