Help! Several sleep issues - props, going to sleep, night waking, naps

[ericayow]

This is my first post and I"m really desperate for some help.  My LO is 4.5 months and has never really been a good sleeper.  I have her on a quasi easy schedule, except that she eats (exclusively bfing) before she sleeps (I'm new to the BW book - wish someone had given it to me when I was pregnant!) our current schedule looks something like this:

wake: 7-7:30
e: 7:30
a: 7:30 - 9
e: 9
s: 9 - 9:45
a: 9:45 - 11:30
e: 11:30-11:45
s: 12-2 (sometimes only a 45 minute nap, sometimes 3 hours! but always with help from me to keep sleeping)
a: 2-4
e: 4 - 4:15
s: 4:30 - 5:15
a: 5:15 - 6:30
e: 6:30
start bedtime routine around 6:30
if i'm lucky, she's asleep by 7:30

I can't lay her down awake to sleep. I've always breastfed and/or rocked her.  Sometimes it can take me 2 hours to get her to bed at night because she seems to have such a hard time settling.  I try to catch her sleep cues and take her to bed right away, but she can still sometimes seem so over tired and/or overstimulated (not really sure if there's a difference?).  Obviously I'd like to get her to sleep on her own and am thinking of trying pu/pd.  The past 2 weeks she's been waking several times in the evening after I finally get her to sleep.  It's like she can't make it through a sleep cycle without me helping her.  Sometimes I'll feed her an hour after she's gone to sleep b/c she seems genuinely hungry and she really eats.  I've tried getting her to eat more during the day but she's just not interested.  She's a big girl - 17.5 pounds and 27 inches long so I think she needs a lot to eat - thinking of starting her on cereal soon.  And then some nights she'll sleep for a 5 hour stretch and other nights she's up every 2 or 3 hours.

She also uses a paci and I think it complicates the inability to self-soothe and the need to suck to sleep.  And you can see from our schedule that her naps are also not good.  I'd like her to sleep longer in the morning but she wakes up bright eyed but then fades in an hour.  And her early afternoon nap is usually 2 hours but that's because I'll go in and comfort her before she fully wakes so that she'll go back to sleep.  I tried the WTS but it didn't seem to work.  Maybe I didn't do it correctly, or give it enough time.

So where do I start!?!!  Should I try to wean her from the paci, and then try pu/pd?  or do it at the same time?  I'm hoping if we get the night sleep worked out, her naps will get better.  She's such a happy, smily little girl and I feel like I'm failing her horribly on this whole sleep thing so any advice would be much appreciated.  Sorry this is so long and rambling...sleep deprivation!

[sophiems]

Well, first of all take a deep breath and realize that if she's such a happy smily little girl, you must be doing a lot right, so you are not failing her horribly.  Sure there are things you could improve, but don't beat yourself up.  You're trying to do better for her NOW and that is what is important! 

Ok, I do not have a lot of time, but I think the most important thing to start with is her ability to sleep without nursing to sleep.  So I think you need to start just decreasing the minutes you feed her before a nap or bedtime.  You have probably trained her to be hungry at that time, so I wouldn't quit cold turkey, but I would start straight away timing those nursing times before naps and getting them shorter and shorter each day.  When you said you can't put her in her crib awake, I think what you want to do is think this "I've taught her a certain way to go to sleep and when I change that, she expresses anger, frustration, sadness."  This is not to blame yourself but just to understand from her perspective, "Hey, my mom taught me one thing and now she's switching it up...I'll not have it!"  So you have to go gradually and teach her a NEW way. 
I promise I can help more, just don't have the time on the comp. right now.  Maybe that will get you started, though. 
Sophie

[ericayow]

Sophie, thanks for the words of encouragement and advice re the feeding.  I think you're right.  I've just been doing what was easiest up to this point.  I'll try to decrease the feeding time before sleeps.  Looking forward to hearing what else you have to say when you have the time!!  Thanks again!
Erica

[Missy Lou]

the first thing i see is that her A time is too long.  the average A time at 4 months is 1.5 to 1.75 hours.  if LO is overtired, she'll take short naps and be difficult to put down for naps and bed.

let's get her on a good routine first.  after we have the routine down, we will see how her naps are going.  if they are still short, then we'll start with pu/pd.  i've read posts from nursing moms who feed LO once or twice a night so that's not uncommon.  if you are concerned about the night feedings though, post on the breast feeding board and see what they say.  my experience with nursing is really limited.

i wouldn't do anything major right now like weaning the pacifier.  however, pacifiers make pu/pd and self-soothing difficult.  but for now, we need to get LO on a good routine.  because if she's overtired, no amount of pu/pd will help.

at 4.5 months, she should be able to go at least 3.5 hours between feedings, probably 4 hours.  i don't know your LO of course but i'm thinking the crying that makes you think she's hungry is possibly overtired cries.  again, i'd check with the breast feeding board to see what they think and possible ways to extend the time between feedings.

i could post a link to other routines for 3-6 month olds if you think that would help you.
melissa

[ericayow]

thanks Melissa for the response.  i agree that i need to get her on a better routine.  i've tried putting her down for naps sooner but, if anything, she's often even harder to get to sleep then and doesn't sleep any longer.

night time sleep is my big worry. i think it is normal for her to eat twice at night at this age and i'm fine with that.  however, she usually eats many more times.  for instance, she woke 3 times between the time she fell asleep at 7:45 and 10:30.  then she was awake again at 2:30, not bad, but then awake again at 4:30 and wanting to eat.  she then woke again at 7 and then woke for the day at 8:30.  sometimes i can soothe her back to sleep with paci and shushing but often i end up feeding her.  DH tries to soothe her so she won't see me and think "milk!" but that doesn't usually work either!

and the other big issue is how to get her to go to sleep in her crib now that i've trained her to go to sleep in my arms?

thanks again!!
erica

[ericayow]

ok, having just written that putting hannah down for naps earlier doesn't seem to help - i have to say i might be wrong. just put her down for her afternoon nap about a half hour earlier than usual and she was so much easier to get to sleep - 15 minutes as opposed to 45 or more.  i still rocked her but at least that's a start!  so definitely will keep it up and try to get on a proper EASY schedule.  Thanks!!

[Missy Lou]

the three times waking between 7:45 and 10:30, i would think are due to being overtired.  if we get her on a better routine, that should help.

do you DF? 

when she wakes at 7 to eat, i'd start the day then. 

this will take some time of course.  she's used to sleeping with your help.  we'll fix the routine and then start on pu/pd.  it will happen.  just be patient and dont get too freaked out about all this. 

i'm going to post some routines for you.
melissa

[Missy Lou]

I think this one is pretty good.  what do you think?

E  8:00am
A
S  9:45am

E  11:45am
A
S  1:30pm

E  3:30pm
A
S  5:00pm

A  6:00pm  bath time etc
E  7:00pm
S  7:30pm

DF  11:00pm

[ericayow]

thanks, the routine looks good.  i just don't know how to get on it when she'll only take a 45 min nap in the am?  i try to get her back to sleep, wake to sleep but nothing seems to work.  and then today i tried to put her down for a nap about 45 min after she woke from her morning nap b/c she seemed so tired but she only slept about 15 mins while i rocked her.

on a positive note, she slept really well last night.  bed at 7:30. woke around 8 but that was b/c she had some bad gas.  then she woke at 1:30 and 6:15.

[Missy Lou]

45 minute naps are such a pain.  they wreck everything.  my suggestion is to try as best you can to soothe her back to sleep for longer.  if you cannot, you need to adjust her routine for the day.  start with the time she woke up and start over with the A time.  KWIM?  for example, if the nap ends at 10:30 and she won't/can't go back to sleep.  go ahead and feed her and then her next nap will be an hour, 45 minutes later. 

my LO seems tired after she's been up an hour but i know if i put her down, she'll sleep for about 20 minutes and that's it and then be cranky.  so try and do something low key around that time.  maybe just walking around with her until she seems to be over the slightly sleepy phase.

that's awesome about the night wakings.  very, very good.  you guys must have been pretty refreshed this morning.