Moving to 3.5 hr EASY – a few questions

[traineeparent]

Moving to 3.5 hr EASY – a few questions

I’m moving my 5 month old DD to 3.5 hr EASY (and maybe 4 hr EASY) and I’ve got a few questions.  This has been recommended to me since she’s been waking at 10pm-ish and also 6am-ish, and she does 45 min naps.    She’s done 45 min naps since she was 9 weeks old.  (Didn’t have the energy to work on that back then!).    She had been feeding every 2.5 – 3 hrs but now she can often go 3.5 hrs.   She’s comfortable with about 1.75 hrs awake time.

I’ve got a few questions. 
WAKE UP TIME
I’m wondering if I should change her “wake up” time.  She seems to wake up shortly after 6am and stir.  She calls out to me sometime around  6.20-6.45.  It’s not a hunger cry, just talking “come and get me up”.  I wait till it’s more persistent then go in.  She’s happy and ready to start the day.   A couple of months ago she would always stir around 6 and go back to sleep until 7am.  Then either wake just before 7 or I’d wake her up.  This doesn’t happen very often now….   Occasionally it’s a dirty nappy that may have woken her but not always.    Today I changed the dirty nappy and put her back but as soon as I put her in bed she did a hunger cry – she’s used to me changing her first then feeding – this is our morning routine - to avoid her getting wet through during the feed.   With family staying for a month we had quite a few 5 & 5:30 wakings then went back to 7am - but mostly 6-6:45am now.   My husband gets up at 6am but this never used to bother her even when she slept in our room (she hasn’t for a month now).
---- Should I adjust the start time of the day to 6/6:30 and give up on 7am?  Will she eventually get back to sleeping till 7am?  I’ve tried feeding and putting back but she doesn’t always get back to sleep if it’s already 6:30.  Then she takes virtually nothing at 7 or 7:30.  I can get her up and hold her off feeding but that’s not brilliant either.

EXTENDING AWAKE TIME
I’m keen to start extending her awake time to move to 3.5 hr EASY.   For the last month I’ve been training her to go to sleep independently so I was going purely on tired signs, putting her down at first tired signs.  So I didn’t want to extend her wake time. That’s going really well now so ready to move on.   I usually put her down 8:30-45 and she’s asleep by 8:45-9:00.   Yesterday I kept her up till 9am and she still did a 35 min nap.  It’s hard to know how much real “awake” time she’s had given that she’s often woken earlier and it may have been a while till she called me in.   Do I just keep adding another 5 mins each day and hope that she’ll nap longer?   I'm scared to over-extend in case it's too hard to get her to sleep.   Only a handful of times does she do longer than 45 mins.   The pattern in the last week or so is 2 x 35 min naps followed by a 1.5 hr nap – sometimes I’ve extended her with shush-pat, other times she does it by herself.     She’s happy when waking from the first 2 naps so I just get her up.  She’s crying if she wakes early from the 3rd, so I shush-pat her back to sleep – usually successfully.   For weeks on end she did 4 x 45 min naps and seemed happy enough but now she seems to need more sleep. (And I would really love the 45 min naps to go away!)

BED TIME
I’ve been putting her to bed earlier – 7am now instead of 7:30. She’s usually asleep by 7:15 or 7:30 (instead of 8pm) unless she’s really overtired.  I read that an earlier bedtime will help them sleep longer – should I try that say 6:30pm – to get back to 7am? 

If she’s done 2 x 35 min naps followed by a 1.5 hr nap waking at say 4pm should I give her a catnap or put her to bed 30 mins earlier?  Sometimes I’ve tried a catnap but then it’s held me up by the time she’s asleep (even in buggy) it’s gone 5:30 and then the bath is delayed and she goes to bed later anyway.

How do I know whether to do a catnap or not? Do I base it on how much awake time is left to bedtime – or should I look at total hours naps so far?  How much is too much? 


MOVING TO 3.5 HR EASY
Because of the short naps, the feeds often running into time for next nap!  She can go 3.5 to  4 hrs between feeds but sometimes by early afternoon I end up feeding before she's actually hungry so that I can get her down for a nap - she's already tired.  What's the way around this?

Here’s a typical day at present. 
   7 wake up, change nappy
E 7:15
A 7.45
S 8.30 start wind-down. (Asleep 8.50, Slept 40 mins)
Awake, A 9.30
E 10.45
A 11.15
S 11.45 start wind-down (Asleep 12.20, Slept 35 mins)
Awake, A 12.55
E 1.25
A 1.55
S 2.25 start wind-down  (Asleep 2.45,  Slept 1.5 hrs – I extended nap with shpat)
Awake, A 4.20
E 5.00
A 5.30
(Sometimes will have a catnap, depends on time of last waking and naps so far)
Bath 6.00
E 6.30 feed (top-up)
S 6.55 Start wind-down  (In bed 7pm. Asleep 7.15)
E 10.00  Dream Feed
She woke 5.50am in morning.  Fed at 6.20 (not sure if was really hungry).

Before moving towards 3.5 hr EASY, the routine was:
   7 wake up, change nappy
E 7:15
A 7.45
S 8.30 (45 mins)
A 9.30
E 10.00
A 10.30
S 11.30 (45 mins)
A 12.30
E 1.00
A 1.30
S 2.15  (45 mins)
A 3.15
E 3.30
A 4.00
S 5.00 (45 mins) 
E 6.00
A 6:30 bath
E 7.00 feed (usually small top-up)
S 7:30.  (Asleep by 8pm)
E 11 Dream Feed

I'd be grateful for any suggestions.

[traineeparent]

Help!  It's getting worse!   This morning she's just woken at 5:30am!!  I was sure it was a mantra cry "I can't get back to sleep". It built up so I went in to do shush-pat. Gave up after about 3 mins and fed her.  I wasn't sure if it turned into a hunger cry....  She took a reasonable feed but only one side and she's gone back to sleep.   She was really overtired yesterday.  Had my mother's group in middle of the day and got back a bit late for her 3rd nap then the phone went just as she was nearly asleep. Aaaaaaarrgh. Will be putting it on silent for her naps now.  Then it was nearly feed time so I bailed on that nap.  So it was 2 x 35 min naps plus a catnap at 5pm of 25 mins. Feeds were 7, 10, 1.30, 4, 6.30.  Bed at 7, asleep by 7:20. DF 10.15pm.    The last few days have been more like 7, 10.30, 1.45/2, 5/5.30, 6.30.  Would that be the problem yesterday - feeds too close together so not getting enough?  I'm getting the problem where she can go longer till a feed but I need to feed her because she's showing tired signs and have to put her down.     

She’s been a bit messed up since we got back from a long weekend away 12 days ago.  We arrived back late at night - something I try to avoid.  That night she woke at 1, 4, 6.  I fed her at 1 and 4, resettled at 6.    Then 2 nights she slept till 7.  Then for 3 days she woke at 5:50, stirred, called out about 6:20, I fed her and put her back down.  She’s settled back down a bit since then but is still waking earlier – about 6ish and calling out to me around 6:15 – 6:45.

Could it be a growth spurt?  She's 5 months and 11 days.  Should I introduce solids? I was going to wait till 6 months if I could.

The other problem is that her room is also quite light at 5:30am now and at 7/7.30pm. I'm in the Southern Hemisphere and we're going into Summer, still 3 weeks till the longest day.  She's got blockout curtains but still light gets in at the top and bottom. 

Help!  What should I do first - any suggestions welcomed.

[*Mona*]

hi and hugs to you- you sound like you're going through really hard times now.

1. at over 5 months she should rather be ready for 4hrs EASY. do try extending her activity time to get closer to 2 hrs, it should make her nap better, not only 45 min a time. it does take time and work so don't expect too much too- your dd has to get used to longer A times and less frequent feeds.

2. if you want to wait until 6 months before introducing solids- that's ok. your milk should be enough for her, unless she is a very hungry baby but she doesn't sound like one.

3. she may well be going through a growth spurt but it's also very probable she was way overtired to get a good night sleep.

4. with 4hrs easy you'll be aiming for 2 longer naps and a catnap. my dd never was great with catnaps, but she still needed them until she turned 6 months. if you manage to have a good and steady routine you will see if your dd needs that late  afternoon nap or not. but I'd say at 5 mos she still needs one. and if she skips it, put her to bed earlier- you don't want to have her overtired.

5. even if you move her bedtime to 6:30 for good, it doesn't mean she will sleep longer in the am. maybe 615~6:30 is her natural wakeup time? my dd usually sleeps till 6:30 and that's it. I go to her and feed her at 7 and our feeding routine starts form there.

6. the light in the room may be an issue too. try blackening it more and see if it makes any difference.

please let us know how your day and night go.
HTH
Monika

[traineeparent]

Thanks for the advice. I’m definitely working on keeping her up a bit later to extend her A times.  I’ve darkened the room a bit more.  I’ll leave solids for now.

If your DD sleeps till 6.30 does she play happily till 7?  I presume you then count the Activity time from when you get her up and feed her despite the fact she’s been awake ½ hr longer?  I’ve read on this website that a lot of LOs have a shorter first activity time – is that the reason why?   I’m not sure how to count the activity time in that first time slot, especially if her wake up time isn’t consistent and I don’t know when she actually woke up. 

This is what happened today:
She woke at 5:30 I fed her 5:45 (one side only) and put her back to bed at 6:15 and she went back to sleep.  She woke at 7:30 cooing. (I was going to wake her then anyway).  She took a reasonable feed which surprised me so perhaps she was really hungry early. Perhaps it is a growth spurt maybe?? 

I spread out her feeds – more than I intended to!  In effect I’ve cut out a whole feed from yesterday, so I hope she doesn’t wake hungry.  So she can go 4 hrs between feeds quite comfortably, she wasn't complaining at all.  So it’s just sorting out those naps!  Is it ok to do it like that?

She woke at 5pm and I thought too late for a catnap, I’ll put her to bed early instead. But that didn’t work.  I really should have given her a catnap. She was overtired/overstimulated and took ages to settle.  Not crying much just “wired”. 5pm is such an awkward time to wake up. What would you suggest?

E 5:30
S 6:15 Woke 7.25. Get up
E 7:40 feed
S Wind-down 9:10. Asleep about 9:30. Woke 9:55. I shushpatted her back to sleep.  Woke again 11:00.  (So 1.5 hrs in total)
E 11:35
S Wind-down 12:50. Asleep about 1:10. Woke 1:55.  (45 min nap)
E  3:25
S Wind-down 3:50. Asleep about 4:10. Woke 4:55.  (45 min nap)
Bath  5:50
E  6:20
S  In bed 6:50.  Ovetired, took ages to get her to sleep.  Asleep 8:00.
E DF 10:20

She woke crying from the first nap so I shushpatted her back to sleep.  She woke happy from the 2nd so I got her up. I guess I needed to keep her up a bit longer.  She was crying when she woke from the 3rd nap but I thought it would take too long to get her back to sleep. Perhaps I should’ve persevered.  Probably should have gotten her down earlier.

From what I’ve read on the Naps board, if I keep her up longer and she still does a 45 min nap, I have to keep her up a shorter time, not the full activity time.  So I guess that means that day is messed up, start again tomorrow?   Won’t it become a vicious cycle. I can’t spread the feeds/naps out so she’ll wake early again? 

I’ll let you know how the night goes…….

[traineeparent]

Well she's slept through to just before 7!  Heard a brief mantra cry at 4:45 but she resettled herself.  So we'll see what happens today.

[*Mona*]

ok, great

I will get back to you tomorrow as it's already night here and I had no time during the day.

just one short reply- if my dd wakes up at 6:30 I think of her A time from 6:30 even if I feed her at 7. she's already active for those 30 min, isn't she.

and it's ok to cut on one feed when moving to 4 hrs easy- she will be taking more at those feeds left.

ok, keep us posted
TTYL

[traineeparent]

Thanks for the feedback.  That does make a lot of sense starting the activity time from when she wakes - just I'm not always sure exactly when she wakes. And what if it's a different time every day?

This is today so far.

Woke about 6:50 (I think - First noise I heard)
Got her up 7am. Changed nappy.
E 7:15
S Wind-down 8:40. Asleep about 8:55. Woke 9:30 Happy so got her up.  (35 min nap)
E 11:00
S Wind-down 11:30. Asleep about 11:50. Woke 12:30 Happy so got her up.  (40 min nap)
E  2:40
S Wind-down 3:05. Asleep about 3:30. Woke 4:00  (30 min nap)  Crying but smiled at me, wasn’t going to respond to me helping her back to sleep!!
(S) 4:45 Took her for a walk in buggy but she didn't fall asleep! 
E 5:50
Bath 6:15
E (topup) 6:40
S Wind-down 7:00.  Really overstimulated/overtired. Mantra-cried and yelled for ages. Not a real cry but built up to it eventually.  I shushpatted her to sleep.   Asleep 8:00.

She rubbed her eyes at 8:25 and yawned at 8:35 so I thought I should get her to bed.  Obviously she wasn’t tired enough to nap longer than 35 mins.  Should I ignore the tired signs and keep her up longer? It’s so much harder to settle her when I don’t get that sleep window.  I could just keep adding 5 mins a day, though it’s hard to know exactly when she woke so when to count the activity time from.   I also try to keep it really low-key in the morning but that’s not always possible.

She was definitely overtired by the 3pm nap. I intended to feed her and put her down earlier.  She could’ve gone longer for that feed (wasn’t showing hunger signs) but I had to feed her to get her down for a nap.  It’s frustrating, EASY becomes  ESA.  Though of course we’re not feeding to sleep and there’s a nappy change in between at least.

8:15 pm. That was exhausting. She was really overtired.  She was doing so well settling herself the last few weeks but she just can't seem to do that when overtired (is that reasonable to expect them to?)

I'm quite frustrated – every day is different at the moment!    It all seems to hinge on that first nap.  I guess I'm scared to keep her up too long in case she's hard to settle - but then I end up with that happening later in the day sometimes, so probably have to take the risk. 

If she does a short nap, should I forget trying to extend out her feeds (she's not telling me she's hungry - can go 4 hrs easily) and feed and put her down sooner?

Tomorrow she's getting immunised so I'll have to take it easy.

I’ll keep you posted!

[*Mona*]

hi there

first of all you're doing a great job watching her cues and trying to help her nap longer and sleep better. but it is hard work sometimes and can be really frustrating when it doesn't go the way we've planned.

my dd also wakes at different times every day, even if it's only 10 or 15 min difference. today she woke at 7:30, lol! usually it's a whole hour earlier

anyway, once you have a steady routine I think your LO may go down for you more or less same time every day, no matter if she wakes 15 min earlier or later. if she's fine with 4 hrs between the feeds- go for it. once you introduce solids it will all change again but until then you may already have a nice routine and new feeding times won't 'spoil' it.

I suggest you try extending her first A time- as you say she obviously wasn't tired enough to nap longer than 30 min but this short nap threw your whole day out, right? she won't nap longer if she's not tired. when you see rubbing eyes etc it is ofc tired sign but don't rush to put her down, wait until she gets a bit whiny and put her down then.

while working on a new routine don't worry if EAS turns to ESA for a bit if you don't feed her to sleep but, like you say, change her nappy in between etc- it's still activity!

and when overtired they don't do anythin reasonable, don't expect too much from her [and yourself]- it's always hard to put to sleep an overtired baby.

I hope your night goes well

Monika

[traineeparent]

Hi there.  The night went well.  Heard a brief yelp around 5am.  She woke about 6.30am and was fine - I went in just before 7 to feed her. 

Today she did a long nap!  I kept her up a bit past her yawn and rubbing eyes stage.   She tends to get overstimulated and hyper rather than whiny.  She had immunisations today so unfortunately I had to wake he a little early from her nap but she'd already been asleep 1.25 hrs so I was really pleased with that!  Next nap was only 40 mins. 3rd nap was 1.5 hrs!!!  Perhaps she was tired from the jabs, we'll see tomorrow.  I did a feed just before the 3rd nap - at 3.5 hrs so I could get her down before she got too tired.  I can't really stick to 4 hrs because it would mean a feed is due in the middle/early part of a nap.  She almost falls asleep at that feed cos she's been up 1.5 hrs.  I make sure she doesn't actually fall asleep but it's not ideal is it. Should I feed even earlier to avoid this?

The last nap ended at 5pm and I put her down at 7.  She was very upset at 5pm due to sore legs from the jabs but I gave her paracetamol and she went down ok with a bit of shush-pat help. 

Let's see what tomorrow brings!

[traineeparent]

9pm
Last night wasn’t so great.  She had a couple of bowel movements straight after the dream feed, as soon as I put her back in bed.  Really explosive so I thought I’d better change her, and sure enough it had gone all up her back!  That woke her up fully unfortunately and it took a while to settle her.  Then she woke at 3:45. Not a hunger cry.  I did some shush-pat and almost had her back to sleep but not quite. She was a bit hot and cos she’d had the immunisations I decided to feed her to give her fluids, didn’t want to give more paracetamol.  So that took till 5am.   I woke her at 7 and she didn’t take much, so I think she didn’t really need that 3am feed (I guess I knew that).   Not much I can really do about her bowel movements!   

Today she did a 1.25 hr nap, then was up for 2 hrs (too long as it turns out) then a 25 min nap (too overtired to sleep longer?) which I tried to extend but she didn’t quite make it into a deep sleep.  I fed at 2.30 then put her straight down 3.15pm but she was really overtired by that point, gave up 3.45ish.  So at 4.15 I took her for a drive so at least she’d get a catnap.   Skipped the bath and put her down at 7. I had to do some shush-pat.

I’m getting quite frustrated.  She’s ending up overtired each day and I’m scared she’ll lose her self-settling skills cos each time I’m putting her down she’s ending up overtired.

I think my mistake is that I’m trying to extend 2 activity times at once.  Should I just focus on extending the first one, hopefully get a 1.5 hr nap. And then go on tired signs for the rest of the day? Should I just do this for a few days running until I consistently get a long nap?  Might not happen reliably though.  But I can’t see how I can do this and still feed 4 hourly (apart from 7 to 11am feeds) or even 3.5 hourly.   Or can you suggest what to do after the short nap?  Should I forget trying to feed 4 hourly (after 11am) and just feed 3 hourly so that I put her down sooner after a short nap?  But then aren’t I trying to feed her less often to get more into her to avoid night wakings etc?  It’s chicken and egg. 

Should I be asking this here or on the naps board?  I’d be grateful for any suggestions.

[*Mona*]

hi

sorry for not getting back too you sooner but too busy at work 

so how has it been going on for you? have you been trying to extend only one of her activity times to make her less overtired?- I think it was a very good plan btw. how is she sleeping at night?

about waking after BM after dream feed- my dd is the same, it takes her even up to 2 hrs to go back to sleep even thou she's just lying happily in her crib singing... 

your LO may still be not ready for much longer A time. so gradual changing sounds best.

please let me know how are things for you
Monika

[traineeparent]

Hi there

Thanks for your support!   I’m working on extending the first activity time and doing 4 hourly feeds and that’s going quite well.  I put her down for 2 naps in a row where necessary (EASAS) and that works well.  She did a 1.5 hr morning nap yesterday and 2 hrs today!!  I woke her at that point since I understand that a nap longer than 2 hrs could wreck the night sleep.    I’ve darkened the room and I think that really helped a lot! 

Unfortunately the afternoons haven’t been so great since I’ve had a few activities on that I couldn’t avoid so she’s had some naps in the car, and ended up overtired.

The main problem at the moment is the early wake-ups which seem to be getting worse.    I guess it’s cos she’s overtired.   She used to wake at 5:50 or 6 and go back to sleep till just before 7.    But now she calls me in earlier and earlier.    2 days ago it was 6.30.   I went in and played with her in the cot.  Got her up at 6:50 to change her nappy and fed her at 7.   So she’s obviously not hungry because she can wait.   There’s no chance of shushing her back to sleep – she’s wide awake and ready to start the day.  And she’s not crying so the shushing wouldn’t work anyway.

Today she woke at 5:50 and was talking loudly to herself, kind of yelling – sort of meowing like a cat and then gets more agitated.  I think it’s her new noise, she does it when she’s playing and more when she’s tired.    I tried to change her nappy and put her back but she complained loudly!   So I fed her and put her back. She did a few mantra yells but soon went back to sleep to my surprise.  Then I got her up at 7:45. The day was a bit messed up from then on.   Am I causing her to think it’s wake up time by going in?  Should I wait till she does a full cry in the morning – unless it’s an acceptable time say 6.45?

I’m going to continue to work on extending the first activity time and see how I go.

I found this interesting:
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=53450.msg372448#msg372448
It says a 6 month old needs 11 hours sleep or else they’ll get sleep deprived. I might try putting her down ½ hr earlier for a week and see what happens. 

[*Mona*]

hi,

it sounds like a good idea to try putting her to sleep earlier. my dd is getting some 11 hrs of sleep at night plus 3 to 5  hrs of day sleep. and she's 7,5 months. and happy and definitely not sleep deprived SO I think for your dd 11 hrs would do great too.

as for waking in the morning- putting her to bed earlier mayhelp that one too.
and if she wakes 6:45 it's close enough to 7 IMO.
and do wait until a 'real' cry- if she wakes and is happy by herself, that's fine and you don't have to rush to her.


Monika

[traineeparent]

Hi there

Well she woke at 6:30am today and cooed happily to herself till I went in at 7.   Different noise to the loud "yowling" like a cat that she was doing a few days ago....

What do you think of the idea of introducing a "Lovie"?   I'm thinking of a muslin square 30cm.   I've always thought it's a bit of a prop, but I've read that it can be good for LOs to comfort themselves with especially at different milestones in their life, and so they find it easier to sleep in different places.  She can sleep in her portacot fine now but it might get harder when she's more aware of her surroundings.   And perhaps it will help her get to sleep when she's overtired - which will happen from time to time no matter how careful I am!!! 

I would make 2 of them so it can be washed/lost.  I guess she could lose it in the cot which could be a problem....  On the naps board it talks about white noise being good. I'm wondering about that but don't want to have to take it everywhere with us on holiday etc.  And if you have it all day for naps wouldn't you need it all night as well? 

We've blackened the room which I'm sure is helping.  But we do have to creep around a bit as she goes to sleep and when my DH gets up at 6am. Perhaps the white noise would block out those sounds.  I'm still reluctant though.  What do you think?

[*Mona*]

hi

first- great for her sleeping so nicely and being good to mama in the morning

lovie- great idea to me! my dd always falls asleep with a cloth diaper she can whatever she wants with and even if she put it over her face, it's safe as it a 'breath through' material. muslin will be fine too

we're using white noise all the time. well, I am. my mom who is our nanny doesn't so I know it's not a prop but surely helps dd to fall asleep and we don't have to creep around as you say.


Monika