Third Nap Concern

[jmoffitt]

My baby is 6 months old. It seems like the third nap might blend with nighttime sleep. Her first nap is fine, usually about an hour and a half, but she'll only sleep about 45 minutes for her second nap (she wakes up happy) and her third nap ends up being her longest. We wake her up once she's had about 4 hours of sleep for the day, and for fear she'll sleep too long and won't be able to sleep at night. At this time she's groggy, takes the bottle reluctantly and usually refuses solids

Here's a typical schedule:
Wake up: 6:00 AM
Feed: 7:00
1st Nap: 10:00 - 11:15
Feed: 11:30
2nd Nap: 2:00 - 2:45 PM
Feed: 3:30
3rd Nap: 5:00 - 7:00 (We wake her up)
Bed: 8:30

Why won't she take a longer second nap? How do we avoid her third nap turning into nighttime sleep? I've tried pick up/put down after her second nap, but it doesn't work because she's happy and wide awake.

[AnnaBenwell]

That looks just like my 4 month olds routine, accept you have better Naps in the day But that 3rd 1 is the same. What we do is wake our DS up at 7 when his feed is due, get him ready for bed, he cries a little, but can hardly open his eyes, Feed him and put him back down to bed and he goes right through the night. Not sure if that is any help.

[abbysmomma]

Hi.. thought I'd offer my two cents. Your first A time is really long - 4 hours? And the A time decreases as the day goes on. Have you tried offering your first nap a little earlier considering how early she wakes? Say around 9am? My DD is 6 mo old too, and here's her schedule:

7:30am wake up and BF
8:30am solids
9:30am nap 1.5 hours
11am wake up
11:30am BF
12:30pm solids
2pm nap 1.5 hours
3:30 BF
5:30 catnap for 20 min
7:30 BF
8pm sleep

I was also thinking that your day is really long. If she wakes that early, I would try to aim for a 7pm bedtime max. Maybe even 6:30pm. When my LO does have a long third nap (b/c the second nap is really short, which does happen on occasion), I find that her third nap makes her really grumpy for the rest of the night - almost like we're waking her up from her night sleep. But that might be just my LO.
 

Anyways, hope that helps. Oops, another thought. Have you tried W2S for your second nap? Works like a charm here!

[Layla]

Hi, I agree with pp that his A time in the morning is too long. A times in the morning are usually shorter than other A times. So, if your lo startes the day at 6am, you'd want to aim for a nap around 9am, 12.30/1pm and a catnap at around 4.50/5pm with a 7pm bedtime. Try to put her down earlier for 1st nap and earlier for 2nd nap. She's overtired and so by the end of the day wants to go down for the night.

Good luck
Layla

[jmoffitt]

I wish I wouldn't of posted that schedule, that is just what happened that day, I wasn't thinking.  I don't keep my baby up for 4 hours before her first nap.  She is only up for two but then it ususlly takes her about 20 minutes to fall asleep. The same with her second and third.  Now that she is rolling around more and starting to crawl it does usually take her longer to fall asleep.
It seems at night she only needs 10  to 101/2  hours of sleep because when I would put her down earlier 7 or 7:30 she would wake up at 5:40 and not fall back to sleep because she wasn't tired.
Please help I don't know what to do with this third nap, what time should I wake her? Should I wake her up the same time every day or should I focus on makeing sure she has enough sleep for the day?

[Layla]

If she takes her 1st nap at 9, what time does she usually take the 2nd nap and catnap? Usually the last nap is the shortest, about 45mins, so you could try waking her up then to preserve the bedtime. Waking up at early and not being to fall back asleep could also be from overtiredness.

You could drop the catnap and put your lo to bed for the night at 6:15/6:30 but it also depends on what time the 2nd nap ends - you don't want to have her awake for 4hrs in the afternoon.

[jmoffitt]

It's really hard for me to tell a schedule because everyday is different, she wakes up between 6 and 7:15AM (we like it to be later) and somedays her catnap is her 1st nap and sometimes it's her second but never her third.  But I would say her second nap is between 12 and 1:30 and 3rd nap is between 4 and 5pm.
I was thinking of trying the wake to sleep for her short nap but I'm not sure how to do it, can someone explain it to me in more detail?
I am making myself sick trying to figure this out, my son didn't have nap problems.

[Layla]

Someone once here told me that no matter what time they wake up, try to aim for nap #1 to be at 9am. So start with the 1st nap... try to get her down at 9am. Then base the rest of the day on how well that nap went. If she sleeps a good hour, hour 1/2, then try for the 2nd nap between 2.5-3 hrs of A time (the av A time for 6mo). If you notice that the 2nd nap is the one being the catnap, then try w2s. I did this on and off for 2 weeks (had to keep coming back to doing w2s cause we were in the middle of x-mas and new years and there was lots of travelling to in-laws and a major stuff up with naps).  Anyways, I would go into her room at the 30min mark (considering her nap would go for 45 mins total). At 30 mins, I'd move her blanket or gently stroke her palm or maybe cheek so that she stirrs. Don't wake her up, just get her to stir a little and then leave. She should take a longer nap and if you do it for 3 days then her nap should extend after that. I was really scarred of doing w2s and didn't have any hope in the procedure at all but it worked for us. I too use to make myslef sick of trying to work it out but thankfully it worked from the 1st time but its just a matter of getting her to move a little (even if its moving her head from left to right) without waking them up completely.

So, if she takes then a decent nap in the afternoon, try for a catnap from 4-5 (depending when she shows tired signs). Wake her up after 45 mins (maybe 1hr total) from the last nap and then to bed at 7-7.30pm.

Give that a go tomorrow and let me know how it goes
Layla

[jmoffitt]

Thank you so much for this advice, I will try W2S and I hope it works!!!!  Tomorrow and the following day I am babysitting for a friend in the morning so I don't expect a long nap in a strange environment and different bed.  I might have to start it Wednesday.  The last two days she has been taking her catnap in the morning. Should I do W2S for the morning nap if she continues this pattern?
If my baby only needs 10 1/2 hours of sleep will she start waking up earlier or will she start staying up later?  I've always wondered about this.
Thank you, Thank you, for taking the time to help me.  It helps to know that someone else made themselves sick over naps because I feel alone with this issue when I talk to friends.

[Layla]

Honestly, I've never been one to count the amount of hrs needed during the day and night. I always based it on how many naps she took (for a 6mo it would be around 2 or 3 - basically up until 9 months it could be 3) and how rested she looked during the day and in the morning. I know that there is an av but I drove myself crazy with the whole av amount of sleep with #1 for the first few months of her life and then gave up. With #2 for example, I know she gets waay more than the av cause she will wake from her catnap at 5:45 and will go down for the night at 6.30 with a wake up between 6.30-7am. She used to go to sleep at 5pm so I know she is on the extreme side of sleep scale....

When your lo wakes after a catnap in the morning, is she happy? You can try w2s for the morning nap but if she is happy then that may be all the sleep she needs to get. If she's cranky thou then 45 mins is not enough. Isabella always took a 45 min nap in the morning and evening so I just accepted it. But I think the afternoon one is the important nap - if she is waking grumpy from that nap, try w2s


Will wait for the progress
Layla

[jmoffitt]

Day 1 -trying W2S for nap
My lo woke up early 5:40 and fell back to sleep for about 15 minutes so she was ready for her 1st nap at 8.  She slept for m 8-9:40 and fell asleep for her second  nap at 12:30. I did W2S, Tracy Hogg's explanation for W2S for naps is a bit different then yours (pg.251 BW solves all your problems), I didn't quit understand it.  I placed my hand on her back and she jolted and 2 min. later she moved a bit but she didn't wake up, she slept until 2:45.  I am not convinced though, about once a month she will take normal naps. She finally fell a sleep for her third nap at 6:10PM so we woke her at 6:30PM so we could put her down at 7:30. Do you think she was asleep for the night? It's is so weird that she won't wake for another feeding?
To answer your question from the other day, yes she is happy after cat naps almost always but I don't think that means much because when my lo was 4 months old we weaned her from the pacifier using shh pat because it was a prop for her and she would only take 30 min naps but after we weaned her from it she took longer naps (1- 1 1/2 hrs.)  So she did need more sleep enen though she woke up happy after a 1/2 hour nap.  Also the fact that the short nap isn't consistant, some days it's morning others afternoon makes me think it's not right.  Especially since her 3rd nap she seams to make up all the sleep she didn't get during the day.
When Jasmine (very adorable little girl) was 6 mths. when she woke up at 6:30AM did you keep her up till 9AM for her first nap?  What time would you put her to bed if she woke up at 6:30? Why aim for 9 no matter what time they wake up, what's the benefit?  Did W2S completely fix your problem? No more short naps during the second nap?

[Layla]

When Jasmine (very adorable little girl) was 6 mths. when she woke up at 6:30AM did you keep her up till 9AM for her first nap?  What time would you put her to bed if she woke up at 6:30? Why aim for 9 no matter what time they wake up, what's the benefit?  Did W2S completely fix your problem? No more short naps during the second nap?

See I had problems with her sleep until she was about 7 months. At 6 months, she was going to sleep at 5.30pm for the night, would wake up inconsistently anywhere from 5.30-6.30am and naps were really hard to figure out as well. Finally what I had to do was move her whole day forward and I started by pushing her 1st nap to 9am and not letting her go for the night until 6.30pm. She's always done 12 hrs at night.

It was recommended that I read "healthy sleep habits happy child" and I would also suggest if you get the chance to have a read through it. He basically looks at sleep from a scientific point of view - that is when/what times naps are most restorative, about sleep/wake biological rhythms and all that kind of stuff. Also the books looks at many sleeping problems, like short naps and early wake ups, and all other sorts of issues. The only thing is that he suggests cio as a means of sleep training (i hated reading that part of the book) but otherwise its a good read. My dh calls it my Bible.

Anyways, the whole 9am nap is because babies need to sleep when they are in a biological sleep mode and naps are most restorative when they are taken in mid-morning, early afternoon and early evening with bedtime between 6-8pm (this is all from the book, btw). This all of course considering that your lo wakes up from 6-7am. If mine woke up before 6 and not gone back to sleep, I'd aim at 8.30am nap. He uses adults as an analogy to describe the benefit of a nap being restorative in that if we take a nap, its best to take one in the middle of the day. With me, say if I take a nap in the morning (soon after I wake up), after that nap I feel worse than I would have if I didn't take it. I usually wake up with a headache and feel like i've been hit by a truck... So basically sleeping a certain amount of hours during the day is not the only thing to look at, its more to do with when that sleep was taken...

W2s did fix my problem and she no longer takes short afternoon naps. Believe me, I was very sceptical in the whole w2s thing but it did work for me. Absolutely no more short naps for me/her (fingers crossed). Try again tomorrow and in general they say 3 days in a row but if want maybe 5 days to be sure and if its not working, we can look at another strategy  .

Great to hear that you lo took a long pm nap  . I think 6.10pm is too late for a 3rd nap. From 6 months, they can take 2 or 3 naps and it depends on what time they wake up from the afternoon nap. If mine would wake up at 2:45 and not asleep by 5pm for her catnap, I would have kept her awake until about 6:15 (or 6.30pm) and then to bed for the night.

Anyways, gotta go baby is crying
Let me know how it goes
Layla

[jmoffitt]

Day 2 W2S
Bad news - I did W2S for her 1st nap and I woke her up.  Did I do it wrong?  I placed my hand lightly on her back and she barley moved, I waited 2 min. to see what she would do, I was looking for more movement but nothing happened.  I did it again (hand lightly on back) and she moved even less so I did it again 2 min. later and she woke up. I could of kicked myself!!! I just didn't think I was doing it right. She didn't seam to stir enough compared to yesterday.  How much should she stir?
I wish I could move my daughters day up too because I want to put her in my sons room.  We live in a two bedroom condo and she is sleeping in our room which I hate.  I hear all her noises even though we have white noise going.  Since she sleeps though the night it could work great but my son is up at 7:15 - 7:30PM not 6AM.  That was part of the reason I was putting her down at 8 or 8:30PM because I think that once babies start needing less sleep they wake up earlier (my son did that) and I don't want her to wake up any earlier as she grows. Then she will never get in his room.
I will get that book.
I think it might be easier for us to talk on the phone but I understand if you want to keep our conversation on this board.  Feel free to email me your phone number at jen102030@yahoo.com. I'm in California so I'm not sure if that will even work.  Just a thought.

[Layla]

I would love to talk to you on the phone but I am at the other end of the world.... in Australia  . Are you ok with email (the address you provided)?

W2s - When I did it, I would move her blanket a little or stroke her hand until she would move a little. Even if she just lifted her hand up in the air and then back again, or took a deep breath and moved her head from left to right... If there was no movement, I would do it again (without waiting) until she would stir. I didn't wait 2 mins cause the closer you are to 45mins, the more chance you have of waking them as they are entering REM sleep (light sleep) and just about anything will wake them up (thats how I understand w2s anyways).

Have you tried extending her A time to 9am? I found that for her morning nap, all I had to do was keep her awake for longer and she would have this great nap without my interference. I didn't have probs with the morning nap, it was the afternoon one that was a killer - waking on 45mins on the dot! Thats when I tried w2s. I have to say I wasn't too concerned with a short morning nap, as she was waking happy from it even when it was as short as 45 mins. BUT when she'd wake up early from her pm nap, she was waaay too grumpy and obviously needing a longer nap.

I know exactly what you mean about having them in your room. I had my lo with us for about 6 months and honestly could not sleep at all! She too was/is a restless sleeper and even though we had white noise (a fan), I just didn't get any sleep and would respond to her at every awakening. It drove me nuts! Maybe wait till naps and nightsleep is done with and then move her to your son's room. Honestly, I worked on moving her morning nap to a later hr (9ish) and not letting her down for the night till 6.30pm helped with early wake ups. Morning naps I found to be the easiest one to move as she was well rested after a nights' sleep (when she slept well at night, that is). Putting them to bed at a later hour can only cause early wake ups more from overtiredness (as I learnt from dd1).

Talk to you soon
Layla

[jmoffitt]

Yes, please email me.  Yesterday I did W2S for her morning nap and it didn't work, she only slept 45 min.  I might have gotten the time wrong though becasue she took 25 min to fall asleep so I had to keep checking on her. Her second nap was 1 hr. but I didn't do W2S.  Today I did W2S for her 1st nap and it didn't work she took a 45 min. nap her second nap was 2 hrs but I didn't do W2S.  I guess I'll keep trying W2S for a total of 5 days. Can you tell me the other tricks?
If my dd wakes up at 6AM which seems to be her wake up time lately should I still try to keep her up til 9AM?
Do you know if babies grow out of the 45 min. naps?  How will I ever get her down to 1 nap in 6mths to a year?