Looking for help with routine and sleep issues!

[Tanners Mom]

Hello!
I'm new to Baby Whisperer and would love some advice! My son is just four months old and sort of on a 'routine'. He follows something similar to a 4-hour EASY. We need some help in a few different areas. (but I wasn't sure where to post this...)

I'll list them to make it easier...

1) Routine: right now we have a loose routine BUT...Tanner doesn't go to bed at a set time or take naps at set times. Here are our last couple of days so you can see: (he is breastfed exclusively so all E=breastfeeding.

Friday night: asleep at 10pm

Saturday: woke at 3:30 for mid-night feeding
up at 8:45am
E at 9:30am
A till 12pm
S 12pm till 1:30pm
E 1:40pm
A till 4:30
S 4:40pm till 5:40pm
E 5:45pm
A bath with Daddy
E 7:30pm
S 8:45pm

Sunday: woke at 4:45 for feeding
up at 8am
E at 8:30am
A till 10:30
S 10:55am till 12:20pm
E 12:45
A till 4pm
S 4pm till 4:20 (woke up very cranky)
E at 4:30
A till 6pm
S 6:15pm till 7pm (woke up very cranky again)
A bath
E 8pm
S 9:30pm

Monday: woke at 4:45 for feeding
Up at 8:15am
E at 9am
A till 10:45
S 11am till 1pm
E at 1:20
A till 3:30pm
S 3:35ish till 5:20pm
E at 5:30
A play and bath till 8pm
E at 8pm
S 9:15pm

I wish Tanner had an earlier bedtime (between 7 and 8:30pm). We don’t do a dreamfeed b/c I’m in bed before 10/11pm and wouldn’t want to wake myself to do it. My husband gets up at 4:30 for work and I always wake with the alarm too so it works well when Tanner wakes at 4:45am for a feeding. And then I can catch a couple more hours of sleep when he does. Anyway…I’d like to move up his bedtime and have a consistent one as well as more consistent nap times. I think Tanner would do great with two long naps.

2) Sleep: This is the biggest problem. Right now, Tanner only takes nap in the sling (with a blanket draped over me b/c he is visually stimulated. I bounce/sway/pat him and he goes to sleep pretty easily. And at night I nurse him to sleep. So…he is unable to fall asleep independently. These things weren't a big deal before but now that he is 15.5 pounds, my back/shoulder are aching at the end of a two-hour nap and there are lots of things I can't do when wearing him. And at night he is consistently waking after I nurse him to sleep so it’s taking an hour or two to get him to sleep at night…you can see from the few days listed above – the last ‘E’ is nursing him to sleep.

At night he is currently sleeping in his car seat b/c he has been congested and couldn’t breathe lying on his back…but we are ready to switch him to his crib soon (need to purchase a mattress yet – was in bassinet before the car seat). I’m pretty nervous about it b/c I feel like he is going to wake up more often since his range of motion will be so much more than in the car seat. When I used to try to swaddle him he would bust out of the swaddle within minutes…he is very strong.

We have a routine for naps (read a story, rock and I sing to him and then when he fusses, I put him in the sling) and for bedtime – bath, read a story, prayers and I nurse him to sleep.

SO…all in all, I’d like my little guy to fall to sleep independently, have an earlier bedtime and a more consistent routine. BUT...I've done tons of accidental parenting. Does anyone have advice on what to start with? Falling to sleep independently or the routine? And how to start? I’m so nervous b/c every time we’ve tried to get him to sleep independently he screams and screams even if I sit there and pat his back and shush him. He sucks his hands/fingers all day long but forgets about them when he’s upset. And he won’t take a paci – he just gums it but will spit it out if I don’t hold it in. (although it does stop the screaming for a minute b/c he is trying to figure it out).

Also, any ideas on how to block visual stimulation in the crib? His crib is in the living room b/c we live in a small apartment so there is LOTS to look at. I plan to use a fan for white noise since I have no door to close to block out the noises.

My husband was also wondering…if we use sh/pat for him – will that become a new prop for him to fall to sleep? I’ve been patting him in the sling b/c I planned to use sh/pat in the crib as a transition.

Should I/when would I use pu/pd?

Also…I have ‘Baby Whisperer solves all your problems’ on hold at the library so I will have that as a resource soon.

One more thing…some days Tanner isn’t showing any signs of sleepiness after being awake 2 or 2.5 hours…it’s more like 3 hours sometimes. What do I do in that situation?

OH…and that reminds me…how do you run errands during A? By the time I change him, feed him and am walking out the door, almost half the A time is over. Some of my errands are 20+ minutes away so this pushes over into his next S time…

Sorry this is SOOOO long – I just thought I’d put it all out there…

Thanks for any forthcoming help!!!!!

[Scrapbooker]

I would work on the routine first and then the independent sleep-as it will be difficult to get him to sleep if he's overtired, etc.  Start with a consistent wakeup and bedtime.  Usually 7Am and 7PM are popular, but whatever works for you-looks like 8Am is more like what you've been having naturally.  A 4 hour EASY consists of 2 full naps (~2 hours each) and a cat nap too.  Without the cat nap, he may be overtired at bedtime.  As for the long A time, yeah 3 hours+ is a bit long especially for the first one (which tends to be less than the other). 

This may sound a bit tacky, but maybe a curtain draped across the room where is crib is or one of those dressing screen looking things (3 vertical folds that look like shutters).  Not sure what else might help with that and darken the room with window coverings (shades, tin foil, etc.).

As for the independent sleeping, I'd read the book first (as there is lots of info there) and then let us know what questions you have as you go.

My LO never took a paci either and has the same problem with the hand sucking (only during play time).  I've heard you can encourage the self soothing, but I've never been able to get her to when she's actually needed it.  I never did the dreamfeed either as I'm a early to bed person too.  She did fine without it (just woke up early morning-better for me).

As for the running errands, just do the best you can.  I am a SAHM and we try to go out the same time each time to keep it part of the routine, but I only go out during the day 1-2 times a week.  Sometimes the errand will affect the nap and you just have to get a nap in the car or be back in time for it.  Some things just need to get done and you can try to keep the rest of the days as routine as possible.  They say try to have 2 or so days of home routine after any disruption to get them back on track.  It's yet another sacrifice.

Good luck with all the changes and let us know how it goes.  You'll probably have more questions as you go, so let us know.  I'm in the middle of PU/PD (see the details in the book) right now and it's going pretty well.

Laura

[Tanners Mom]

Laura, thank you for your reply and ideas. As you mentioned, I do have questions. How do I do consistent wakeup and bedtime? Do I wake him in the morning at 8am regardless of the amount of sleep he got the night before? Any ideas how to get him down at 8pm at night? It's so hard to get him down at a set time. I wanted him asleep by 9pm tonight and he just went down at 10:30pm. I had read your reply earlier so I let him have a catnap but now I'm wondering if it was too late? (naps were 10:20am till 12pm and 2:30pm till 4:30pm and then catnap from 6:45 till 7:30pm) Lately I've been nursing him to sleep and then in 10-15 minutes he wakes up screaming and I go get him and lay him on my chest and pat his back or rub his back and he's back asleep in 10-15 minutes. Once he's asleep - he sleeps for 5-8 hours in one stretch.

Thanks for the ideas for the room and errand running. I'm a SAHM too and what you do sounds like what I've been doing...except that Tanner doesn't like to sleep in the car so he screams the whole way home.

I really appreciate the help and advice!

[holdenlouis]

Hey there Tanners mom I started BW when DS was 4.5 mo. and I had to nurse to sleep also. He also did not like a paci. Like Laura said work on your EASY first then when your LO is used tothat then start PU/PD. There is lots of info and peopleto help you here. With the PU/PD they do cry but don't give up it does work. as long as you are there to comfort him when he is crying you are not leaving him to CIO. I did not let my LO even fuss so I didn't even know what his mantra cry sounded like. Do you have the book yet? That will really help also. My DS is 13 mo. now and sleeps all night from about 7-7. So it does work.

Lisa

[Scrapbooker]

I would wake him up at the same time no matter what.  Otherwise, you'll never be able to start on a schedule for the day.  In a few days of the same routine, it will work itself out and naps will be at the same time each day (approximately).  This is preety important to get things started.  I had trouble with this also as my DD woke up at different times each AM and I had to give medicine on an empty stomach, etc.  But, it was well worth it.  She now wakes between 6-7 AM pretty much every AM and we get our routine started.  We recently had a blip where she was staying up all day and needed to be fed to sleep, but I am using PU/PD for that so she'll sleep at all-I think it's mostly developmental, but I had to nip it in the bud before it got out of hand as it was messing up our feeding schedule, routine for the day, sleeping, etc.  Once you start the routine, it will go hand in hand with the sleep training-trying the non-PU/PD options first, but maybe be ready with PU/PD info when you need it.  Obvious first step is getting the mattress though  . 

The catnap is a little too late if you want a 8:00 bedtime.  Maybe aim for a catnap at 6-6:30 if you want 8:00 bedtime.  But, there are sample EASY's on the FAQ section of the EASY Board above here.  May want to check those out.  Every LO is different, but after a catnap, there A time is shorter too.  My DD has cat nap at 5:15-5:30-->6-6:15 and then does just 45 mins -1 hour of bedtime routine and falls asleep then and she is 5 1/2 months.  Right now with PU/PD, it takes us longer to get to bed, but not much.  Also, don't forget that some 4 month old LO's are not even ready for a 4 hour EASY, so be sure to watch for tired cues and put him to bed when he's tired.  That said, if 4 hours is working for you both, great!!  Tracy suggests taking a few days to just watch and observe when they look tired/hungry, etc. to formulate a good routine for them.  Good Luck!!  Come back with any questions.

[cwhyte]

hey there.  i just was going to offer some support.

i remember i started the EASY plan at around five months.  i feel for you when you say that Tanner just screams and screams as you try to teach independent sleep. 

my son is amazingly spirited and had no interest in learning how to sleep on his own.  it took more than six weeks of him screaming as i did the P/U P/D until it finally tapered off.  this really blew my confidence and i was certain it wasn't going to work.  after many tears of my own and some support, it finally did. 
he is now 11 months and we are having to go through it all again since he's experiencing different milestones, but knowing that things will eventually pan out is really helpful. 

[Tanners Mom]

Hi Ladies!
I can't tell you how wonderful it is to hear from you!! Thanks so much for the support and advice. As I was processing through how I was going to deal with these routine/sleep issues - and I wasn't sure what to do, I stumbled upon an excerpt of Tracy's book on the web and was so happy to find an avenue that didn't make me let Tanner CIO. I came to the conclusion that my heart just wouldn't let me do that. And now after hearing your stories, I feel good about my decision to use EASY and BW independent sleep methods.

OK...so I'm unable to start the routine today. First - he woke at 9am and second, our routine will be way off b/c he has is 4 month dr. appt. today.

So I plan to wake him at 8am tomorrow and go from there.

About naps...If I wake him at 8am - he should go down at 10am. If he doesn't fall to sleep till let's say 10:30, will I wake him up at 12pm? And the same for his afternoon nap? Or...what if he only sleeps for 1 hour and I can't get him back to sleep?

Also - assuming that he is asleep by 8pm or shortly thereafter, what do I do if he is up for good at 6 or 7am the following morning?

Just thought I would ask b/c those things are pretty typical with Tanner. He's never slept 11+2+2+.75 hours in a day. For example - yesterday he had about 9 hours of sleep at night and then a 1.5 hour nap, a 2 hour nap and a 45 minute cat nap. But last night he had about 10 hours of sleep and during his first nap (in the sling of course) he woke up after 45 minutes...and I could NOT get him back to sleep. Finally he started to fuss/cry so I took him out and now he is lying happily on his back, looking around and talking.

Lisa...thanks for the success story - that is so great to hear. And cwhyte - Tanner is pretty spirited so it's good to keep in mind that it might take longer than I would hope.

OH...and about the 4-hour EASY. I had read that blurb from the book on the web and it recommended watching for a couple of days - so I did and he basically put himself on a 4 hour routine. I just watched him and let him lead.

Thanks everyone!

[Scrapbooker]

Regarding the naps timing, I have read two schools of thought.  One says wake him no matter what to keep him on schedule, the other says let him sleep a little longer if he needs the sleep as long as it's not thru the next feeding (i.e. 4 hours in your case).  What I usually do because I have the same problem with different AM time wakings is just adjust the day a little as I go and aim for the same bed time.  It always seems to work out and naps are usually only 1/2 hour away from the previous day.  My goal is to get as my DD as much sleep as she needs while keeping the day fairly perdictable and on a rhythm.  I allow a little more flexibility than some.  Another option is to make her wake up time earlier so she'll always have the same one.  If she wakes up at 6AM, then you can make a 6PM bed time, etc. or you can work on extending wake up time.  Hope this isn't too confusing.  My routine allows for wakeup anywhere in between 6-7AM as a range.  If she wakes before that, I feed her and send her back to bed.  And just to give you some hope, my DD is very spirited also, but started to sleep independently by herself at 4 months (then gave it up after 2 weeks) and now is again at 5 1/2 onths with only a few days of PU/PD.  HTH, Laura

[Tanners Mom]

Well - so far so good. Tanner woke up by himself at 8am! WOW. And he is down for his first nap - he fell asleep a little after 10am. So we'll see how the rest of the day goes.

I'm most nervous about bedtime tonight. He fights it so much. I'll know that he is tired (rubbing eyes and yawning) so I nurse him but he always wakes up soon after and so we have to start all over. We'll see what happens!

But I was so happy to hear that at his 4-month dr. appt - he is perfectly healthy and well! That is what is most important!! 

[Scrapbooker]

You can try PU/PD at bedtime if that would help stop the feeding to sleep association.

[Anita S.]

I know that we were having huge troubles getting our dd to sleep at the same time each night until we began the -bath, warm milk-to-sleep routine. I know it's not looked on highly to nurse to sleep, but I began with the idea that it signals nighttime. Plus, a warm bath and some warm milk just SOUNDS like beddtime, doesn't it? PLUS the Johnsons baby wash is lavendar scented and it says RIGHT THERE ON THE LABEL "helps soothe fussy babies". Can't hurt!
During the day we stick to EASY, but unfortunately have developed a prop of rocking her to sleep for naps. The hard part is that when she reaches 15lbs, I won't be able to afford the type of chiropractic rehab I'll need! So I'm working to put her in her bassinett a little earlier each time so that she begins to get used to going asleep in the bassinett during the daytime. THEN she goes and has a monkey of a day and is too overstimulated to do it herself and if you put her down too early, it's another 15-30min of rocking!
Overall, I agree, that setting the am wakeup time can make the whole day smoother.

[Tanners Mom]

Oh boy....so today didn't go quite as planned. Nap #2 was only 1/2 hour and nap #3 was almost 2 hours! I guess his catnap and long early afternoon nap just got switched.

I also bathe him using lavender soap and I know what you mean about a warm bath and warm milk...it sounds like sleeping heaven to me!

Laura...I still need that mattress before I can attempt pu/pd...hopefully will get out to get that soon!

Ladies, I seriously appreciate your ideas and advice and stories!

~Jaci

[Anita S.]

Jaci, concerning the swaddle...I'm sure many moms would disagree with me on this, but I have found no other way...We use a diaper pin to hold the swaddle where the two sides overlap. Since she was two weeks old she has been a houdini with swaddles, no matter how perfectly folded, no matter how tightly tucked...by houdidni, I mean in SECONDS she would be out and flailing again. I resorted to the diaper pin and she still gets out sometimes, but at least she stays swaddled long enough to go to sleep.
BW stated she was definitely against electrical taping the swaddle on, so I guess the pin would be frowned upon...Whatever gets you through the night, it's alright, it's alright....

Yesterday naptime went well for dh in the am, but in the afternoon, she just decided that she wasn't going to sleep. 1 hour to get her to sleep, then only for 30min. Luckily she went down easy for her catnap, but the big trouble now is that when she wakes up form her catnap (whether 30min or 45min), she's a bear! She's no happier for her bath than if I had kept her up all day long! She screams bloody murder! What am I doing wrong?

[Tanners Mom]

I remember when he was a newborn and I would hold him in his swaddle for awhile after I put him down b/c he also is houdini and breaks free so quickly.

Any ideas where to get a LARGE swaddle blanket? Tanner is super long and the blankets I was using when he was first born are too small!

Anita - I've had days similar to yours yesterday. That is so frustrating and you do feel like you're doing something wrong but you're not!!! Tanner is like that when he has 'bad' naps - aka wakes too early and can't get back to sleep. Don't put this on yourself. When these days come I try to keep reminding myself that 'tomorrow is another day' and 'this too shall pass'.

We had a doozy of a morning. DS woke at 3am for a feed - went right back to sleep. But then woke at 6am, crying and crying - I thought he would resettle after a couple of minutes but he didn't. I picked him up and cuddled him but he wouldn't have any of it. I knew he was tired so I nursed him again and of course - he was out in about 10 minutes. Then I did a BIG no-no in accidental parenting world...let him sleep the rest of the morning (till 8am) in our bed. It's so easy to do this...I was SO tired and just really wanted that extra 1.5 hours sleep.

I plan to get the mattress today!! He'll actually have a crib to sleep in, finally!! OH...and I'm getting "the BW solves all your problems" too.

So, after that, I have no excuses..........

[Scrapbooker]

Hope everything goes well.  Don't worry, we still think of plenty of other excuses . 

Regarding the swaddle, I use one of the ones with the velcro and swaddle her after she's asleep.  She got too big for it (very tall also), so I sewed extra velcro on to allow for it to go a little farther and I don't put her feet in it anymore-they just stick out the bottom in a sleep sak.  Otherwise, some people uses a twin sheet (for the Aussie swaddle) and the velcro ones are avaiable in different sizes at Babie R Us or online (called SwaddleMe).  I saw an ad for a sleep sak with a built in swaddle-what will they think of next?