Author Topic: Early wakings again, please help  (Read 1546 times)

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Offline yaya

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Early wakings again, please help
« on: February 21, 2007, 13:10:15 pm »
Well after terribly early wakings DS had been waking progressively later for the last week, this morning tho it was 5 am again :'( I just dont get it!
The only diff in our day was a short nap ( i think teething pain tbh)

Our routine looks like this:

wake 6.00-7.00
Breakfast
Lunch 12 ish
Nap between 12.15 and 12.30 (altho sleep training at mo so can take up to 40mins to fall asleep )
Usually sleeps 1hr45 to 2hrs (with me resettling once)
Dinner 6.30
Bath 7
Bottle and bed, again falling asleep late (8-8.15) due to sleep training
 
last week has slept thru but last night woke a couple of times, fairly easy to resettle with patting.

Please please any thoughts? Sorry to be hijacking these boards all the time but really thought we were on a roll with sleeping!

Additional Q: how long approx till the falling asleep indep process gets a  tad easier????? He still takes A LONG time to fall asleep and altho I dont do anything to help I stay in the room so I am aware that it isnt smooth (he winges and cries a bit and cannot seem to relax till hes totally shattered and passes ouT)

TIA my lovelies :-*

Offline aidenmc

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Re: Early wakings again, please help
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2007, 14:54:04 pm »
Hi Yaya,

Your situation sounds very familiar. I suspect this morning was dur to the short nap and falling asleep late, possibly both because of teething pain and training. We have managed to get out of AIden's room so that now he falls asleep along. I find it is always better when he falls asleep alone, but it has required DH to do all the sleep times until it became established (DH would cry hard when I left the room - now he is okay with me putting him down and leaving).

Lately Aiden has been playing through his naps. I will leave him up to 2 hours or more. As a result I have been putting him down extra early and he has slept better during the night (11 hours last night after no nap yesterday). What I am saying is that you may want to try to get him down extra early to take into account the time it takes him to fall asleep. Whenever Aiden takes a very long time to fall asleep he tends to wake more and earlier (we also suffer those periods of very early wake-ups). When Aiden does wake in the night and doesn't go back down on his own, he generally goes back with a little patting. But, because he is going down on his own and I know he can tolerate spending long periods alone and awake in thee I am much more confident in leaving him in the morning when he wakes early.

OF course all this does tend to get derailed with teething and illness. We have a similar schedule to you and when things are normal and he takes a nap, we have him in his crib by 6:30 and he is generally asleep by 7. With missed naps we have him down by 5:45.


So...to sum it up, I would try getting him down earlier tonight so he has a better chance of being asleep earlier.

HTH

Becky
Becky,
Mom to Kieran (10/15/2000); Aiden, (7/ 8/ 2005); and Samuel (7/10/2010)

Offline imsmum

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Re: Early wakings again, please help
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2007, 15:26:04 pm »
I agree with pp although you might also want to try to move the nap a bit earlier also--I find if my dd naps too late I can't get her down early at night even though she REALLY needs to because the late nap keeps her from falling asleep--she needs at least 5.5 hours after nap wakeup.  It looks like your ds needs at least 5 hours so you may need to factor that in as well.

A formula that works well for us ( althoug dd is much older 30 months) is after a bad night she goes down about 20 minutes earlier for her nap and then up to an hour earlier for bedtime, and she's usually back on track by the next day or 2.

HTH   

Offline yaya

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Re: Early wakings again, please help
« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2007, 18:48:48 pm »
thanx guys, i'm guessing ur right, i'm just amazed that he can get overtired enough to wake that early from 1 bad nap!??!?! He napped just over 2 hrs without me intervening which is good and becky , T is the same, he generally sleeps much better if he has fallen asleep on his own and if he wakes not long after he's gone to bed and he manages to resettle himself on his own.
Tonight..........he fell asleep in 15 mins totally on his own :o so was asleep almost 30mins earleir than he usually is...wish us luck!!

Oh and BTW when on earth do they start sleeping amounts that they need to when they need to???? (like 2, 3 yrs old do, if they're realyl tired, they sleep loads????)

Offline aidenmc

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Re: Early wakings again, please help
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2007, 13:57:18 pm »
THat's great he fell asleep so well! How was the night? I sometiems wonder whether we are tyring so hard to control something that is acually out of our control. After having an almost 2 hr nap yesterday (having skipped it theprevious two days), he was asleep by 7:10 after a tougher time falling asleep (took 40 minutes) than the previous two nights. He woke twice (got himself back to sleep on the second) and was up for the day at 5:00. Urgh! I think someone should publish the standard deviation of sleep amounts as well as the average. I wonder if Aiden is even capable of sleeping the average amount!
Becky,
Mom to Kieran (10/15/2000); Aiden, (7/ 8/ 2005); and Samuel (7/10/2010)

Offline imsmum

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Re: Early wakings again, please help
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2007, 15:35:35 pm »
Becky--I've long resigned myself to the fact that Margot needs at least 1 hour less sleep than the "average".  Some days her 6 year old sister gets more sleep than she does!

Aiden may have woke early because he fell asleep later than his usual time.  That's why I try for the early nap after having a no nap day so dd can still be tired enough to fall asleep at her usual time--it works for us anyway.

Offline aidenmc

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Re: Early wakings again, please help
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2007, 17:34:38 pm »
That's funny. I have thought the same thing about Aiden's 6-year old brother!

One question. For the past 2 days we put Aiden down at about 5:45 or 5:50 as he played right through his nap. Both nights he fell asleep by about 6:15 or 6:20. The first night he woke at 3:40 for about an hour then slept until 7. The second night he slept right through until 5:20. Last night, because he did nap from 11:50 to 1:40 we put him down at 6:30 for a 7:00ish sleep time. He woke a couple of times briefly then at 5. Do you think he would do better with an even earlier bedtime than 7? That was what were usually aim for. I do worry that if he falls asleep by 6:30 and decides that 10 hrs is enough, that he will stat waking earlier for the day. What do you think? DH did say that Aiden seemed pretty tired yesterday when he put him down. Could he need an extended period of earlier bedtimes?

(Sorry to highjack your thread ;). I will try to keep quiet after this.

Becky
Becky,
Mom to Kieran (10/15/2000); Aiden, (7/ 8/ 2005); and Samuel (7/10/2010)

Offline Gippie

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Re: Early wakings again, please help
« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2007, 18:06:30 pm »
disclaimer :   ;D BEFORE YOU READ THIS - THIS IS MY OPINION ON TODDLER SLEEP PROBLEMS, WHAT WE DID AND WHAT WORKED FOR US.  THIS IS IN NO WAY MENAT TO INSULT OR OFFENDS WHAT OTHERS HAVE SAID, DO OR WILL DO.....IT IS ONLY ME.   PLEASE DO NOT READ IF YOU DO NOT WANT. 

OK - to all the ladies AND myself I have one question - well maybe a few...

1.  Do you notice HOW many kids in this age bracket seem to be having "sudden" sleep issues?  TONS and TONS
2.   Do yo see how many of us spend a LOT (too many for myself) hours on here trying to figure these problems out?  same answer as #1

Do we have answers.....ARE there answers?

HISTORY:   We had a FABULOUS sleeper.   At 13 months, she started having "issues" (NW's, hard to fall asleep, habitual wakes), we needed the 2-1 nap switch and we did it.    That was a transition as the name suggests and it worked itself out.  We STUCK with it...and some days it seemed as if we might need to "go back".   This has been at least 6 weeks - I have notes from January 11th that note our nap THEN was the SAME as it is today.    Now with that set in place, we started to look ONE AT A TIME at other things.

1.  Wake time.  Is, always has been and happily is 6am - no changes needed.
2.   Bedtime.   A little late.   We moved it to 7:30 (from 8pm) and still had NW's and EW's.    We finally moved it to 7pm  (so it took 2 weeks to get there.    It is still there.  The earlier bedtime helped with the TRUE NW's (1/2am)

We had this schedule - it was sound, just needed to fix the NW's (and I know Tracy says fix day sleep bbefore night.....I get that....and I dont think she mean splitting hairs over 10 minutes, rather make a good routine and go from there)
6am wake (give or take 15-20 mins)
11:30-2 nap
7 bedtime

I SCOURED the boards and if I did everything I read, I would have made her nap later, earlier, bed later, bed earlier, back to 2 naps, catnap and a long nap.......ARGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Instead of going nuts- I laid down some constants and started with the other stuff - that I needed to change.

1.   Any AP that was going on.  I stopped all AP and did some Gradual Withdrawal to ease off of my intervention in her getting to sleep.  I sat by her bed (used to get IN her crib and snuggle with her  :o :o)....Trust me - bad I know :-[.
2.  Per some posts, I initiated some reassuring statements "Shhhhh, It's night night, you have your binky, your teddy and your blanky....go night night, I will see you when you wake up".   I had stuff like this, but none that I would use when she DID have a NW.   THIS was a GREAT tool in the end!!!!
3.   I watched and waited...and took notes.  Mind you this all started somewhere about Chrstmas, I took notes starting Jan 11th and have them till now.

I noticed that we had some Early AM wakes, 4-5am and she wasnt resettling.    The fiirst few times I thought she might be hungry...and it was at the start of the "issues" so I fed her.  I figured it was an "odd wake" and whatever excuse I painted to maintain my "perfect sleeper"....when this became a pattern - sensibility checked in with me.   I thought she couldn't be hungry, but boy oh boy she seemed to be when she woke, so I tested out a few things - note....NO CHANGES.   I tanked her up with food - still woke.  I gave her a DF (YES- a DF  -and I saw what people said......) at varying times from 10-11 - still woke.  I tried to catch her before she woke, I tried my "reassuring statements", I tried PD - she was NOT having it.   I was feeding her back to sleep as a LAST resort at those wakes.   

Soooo...I started sleeping in her room.  I did the normal night routine and went in there at MY bedtime and slept with the cell phone to see the EXACT TIMES.  In that time,when she did wake, I noted the times and  I used the reassuring statements, I shhhhed her and at the end of my efforts(nothing worked), YES, I did feed her - I had to properly FINISH what I had started.  I needed to wean the feeds.  I went back to a DF and lessened the "am feed".  This convinced me that she could NOT be hungry.  Finally as I dropped the DF - over the course of a few days - I saw a pattern in her wakes and did W2S for what I discovered had become a VERY HABITUAL 4:20 am wake.    It is AMAZING what you learn on the floor versus guessing from your bedroom....when you are warm and comfy (note floor sleeps suck).   Did I mention I work full time and have a DH who is a policeman and works he overnight? ;).

Finally I had a problem, a pattern and a SOLUTION - and I did w2s - it worked.    It was a 3:20 w2s, and she wasn't so close to her morning (6am)wake time that it would be to jolting....so that was a success.  After that, I noticed she started to wake anywhere  from 5-5:15(it was almost one cycle after w2s.   At this point, I thought "YES - this is the last 45 minutes - I can DO IT".  I think I licked the 4:20 wake about Feb 14th for good.

Now I went back to my room and started  think about this NEW wake - and I spent a lot of my life OBSESSING Over it, rereading BW books, scouring posts, making charts, graphs, lists....talking about it to anyone who would listen.....sound familiar to any of you? :P

When she woke at the 5ish wake, I would feed her - YES - I went back to it (I know, I know...).   And of COURSE it worked!!!!!!    She went back to sleep and woke happy as a lark at 6am.  There were a few times when I tried a 4:15 w2s - but her sleep was so light, I really just made it worse. 

Then

I went to a friends this past Tuesday and she said her daughter (16 mo) had JUST gone through this (see #1 from the START of this post) and they talked to the DR - they didn't need to feed her, so one night they buckled down and let her sort it out...NO  - not cry - SORT it out.... she stopped the wakes and went back to her good sleeps.  Well...ironically that night, I forgot her bottle as I left my friends house and did not give her her bedtime milk before the 2 hour drive home.  I decided that I would give it as I took her from the car to the house and help her transition to bed.   SOOOOOO...this was another sort of DF test - I fed her (out of necessity) at 10:30 pm and guess what folks - she still woke at 5:15!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

and from my bed I made a horizontal decision ;)

I went in to see if she was OK, not wet, doggie was not overboard and she was fine.  I said my "reassuring statement" to her and shut her door, told her I'd see her when she woke up.   I went to MY room, and MY bed and turned off the monitor and laid like a statue in my bed, listening, wondering and waiting....YOU KNOW WHAT......she yelled for a few minutes, I called my "reassuring statements" to her (my room isn't far) heard her mantra cries and the was quiet enough for me to go back to sleep....at 6 I heard her and I walked in and said a BIG HUGE "good morning"  ;D to her.  Now I DID worry and wonder if she'd be tired...did she sleep.......so I did (another) test.    I gave her her AM bottle and tried to put her back to sleep - NO GO - she was awake!!!!   

That day, she was Super happy, had her SAME nap and same bedtime.   

Wednesday - same 5am wakes - same procedure as above....same results
Thursday - same as above, less fussing and same results.
Friday (today) - all on track so far


My call - it just takes time
.   My head spins when I read so many posts - like used to write - they are filled with SOOOOOOOOOO many variables, so many adjustments  which is so funny cause Tracy's big thing is routine.      I understand that we DO need to make changes, but when  GOOD stuff is in place.....tweaking this and that to the point of insanity seems to wear moms out more than have success.

I firmly believe that this process was/is all about her getting USED to resettling herself as a TODDLER, who has a WHOLE new resume of abilities, when she woke up in the wee hours - it is the SAME THEME As all of the other posts...so we have to conclude that this IS somewhat developmental.

My advice.   Pick a schedule, make sure it is reasonable and STICK WITH IT(make sure it is age appropriate and sound).   Address the issues that the parents can withdraw on and do that(honest look at AP).      Then address the wakes, by dealing with your own fears (hunger, teeth, wet ??? ??? ????) and then make a plan to deal with what you WILL do.     That was the turning point for me...stepping back and seeing if I could put it all together and let her take over.  The plan was what what I would do....NOT what I would change!!!!   There was a list in my mind that went from thing to thing that I would DO....and when w2s failed at 5:15, I did the next thing...it was a process of elimination, but you really cannot get there is you are continually changing the objects you are juggling.     When I did something, it was like adding another ball to my routine.....less of a disruption, more of an addition.

I hope this makes sense.......it was 2 LONG months...as I said, I work full time....and she still wakes at 5 BUT needs no intervention...and I hope that will fade out (I get up at 5 to get ready for work), but if it does not, she has no bad habits and I have reduced stress since the ownership is on her after 2 months of good teaching.  She is a toddler, learning to talk and do a world of other things.....I swear it is developmental

Hope it helps...if it doesn't - go back to BWSAYP and read page 390 "Alignment of the Planets". ;D


Sleepy nights, happy mommies and toddlers to all of you.....if this all backfires on me....I will post that too.  It is a work in progress....but arent we all.

Stacey   :-*
« Last Edit: February 23, 2007, 18:23:58 pm by Gippie »

Offline imsmum

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Re: Early wakings again, please help
« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2007, 18:45:17 pm »
Becky not sure if you should do a couple of days of earlier bedtimes, that's hard one to judge since you don't want to be trading one problem (no napping) for another(too early wakeups).  With Margot I usually just do one day of an early nap and a super early bedtime but that is usually in response to only one bad sleep day, or 2 at the most so she's usually not having to catch up on a lot of sleep.   I actually find that she won't go down early the second day after having a good night sleep and nap--she's just not tired enough.  So I guess my answer is to judge sleep time by how he seems and if he wakes early then the next day start pushing nap and bedtime back to normal! 

Offline aidenmc

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Re: Early wakings again, please help
« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2007, 23:32:05 pm »
Thanks Imsmum. He is back to going down at about 6:30 and he is still napping. I completely forgot that the morning he woke early (at 5) was the day after he received 2 shots at the Drs. The next day his arms were so sore I couldn't touch them! Anyway, we seem to be back to our usual routine except with an earlier nap. And we are doing a lot more of what Gippie has been talking about - letting him sort it out and it is really helping. And I really do remember with ds #1 when I stressed over sleep but didn't have these boards to help me analyze it all, I did come to the conclusion that you can do so much but in the end they do outgrow this.
Becky,
Mom to Kieran (10/15/2000); Aiden, (7/ 8/ 2005); and Samuel (7/10/2010)

Offline Gippie

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Re: Early wakings again, please help
« Reply #10 on: February 25, 2007, 00:40:24 am »
Amen Becky - Amen.

 ;D