Author Topic: Need help with bedtime routine!  (Read 1340 times)

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Offline nike

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Need help with bedtime routine!
« on: March 21, 2007, 10:49:23 am »
DS is 13 weeks old (8 weeks corrected premmie) and I'm still muddling through at finding a bedtime routine.  Whilst we don't strictly follow EASY, he's basically put himself on a 4 hour EASY.  The last week or so he's refused a catnap after 4 p.m. so I've been stretching him out till a bedtime of 6 p.m.  By this time he's a bit ratty.  Ideally I'd like a later bedtime but like I said, I can't get him to catnap in the afternoon.  He's a good self-settler for all his day naps (touch wood) but I really need help tweaking the night routine.  Tonight, for example, was not pleasant :-\  I did manage to get him to have an afternoon catnap at 4.30 p.m. today, when he started getting really grizzly (one hour after waking).  He then woke at 5.30 p.m.  We had quiet play after waking, bath/massage at 6 p.m. and into nursery at 6.30 p.m. to feed.  I offered him the bottle (he is formula fed since 3 weeks ago) and he screamed blue murder.  I tried several times and he just got more worked up.  He was thrashing around and beating my chest, squirming away from me.  It was a real performance!  He didn't want to be held, patted or soothed so I put him down in his cot, with a little pat on the back and stroke of his head, which is what I normally do for day naps before walking out.  For day naps he always has a little wind-down cry but is usually asleep within a couple of minutes.  He is not a baby that likes much interference when he's ready for sleep, just wants to get on with it himself.  Tonight he continued to scream, so I went back in at the 5 minute mark, got him out of his cot, sat in the rocking chair and offered him the bottle again.  He immediately calmed down and drank the whole 160 ml.  Gave him a little burp and put him back into his cot awake, but didn't hear another peep from him!  Go figure!  So why wouldn't he take the bottle five minutes beforehand???

My long-winded question is that I'd really like to avoid nights like tonight and would like some predicatability to our night routine.  I thought today with the catnap that he'd be a champion going down, but not so.  I have tried feeding on waking from afternoon nap and sometimes he's interested, sometimes not.  I have tried a top-up right before bed and sometimes he'll take it, sometimes not.  When he doesn't want it, he screams blue murder.  He's definitely not one of those babes that will just clamp his mouth shut and refuse the bottle....he gets very distressed.  He is a silent reflux bub but we have that under control with Zantac now.  I have tried earlier bath times, later bath times, quiet play, active play to let off steam - I think I've tried everything!  I am a big routine girl and it's doing my head in that I don't know how to "read" him.  He is my 2nd boy (#1 DS is 22 months old) and I still don't know his cries, whether hunger or tiredness. 

I will post how our day went today.  We don't have a rigid routine per se, it is all dependent on what time he wakes in the a.m., but he generally feeds 4 hourly and his awake time is still only an hour before he goes down for a nap.  He is having three good naps a day, and a catnap is hit or miss.  Like I said, he is a really good self-settler.  We also weaned from the dummy a week ago since he was having trouble holding it in his mouth and we had to keep going in to replace it...grrr!  So this was today:

E - 8.30 a.m.
A - 9 - 9.30
(usually in bed an hour later but had to visit the clinic so was later putting him down)
S - 10 (2.5 hours)

E - 12.30
A - 1 - 1.30
S - 1.30 (2 hours)

E - 3.30 (only took 60 ml)
A - 4 - 4.30
S - 4.30 (catnap)

Woke at 5.30 and didn't offer feed because he only last ate 2 hours beforehand.  (Perhaps I should have, in hindsight?)  Bath and massage at 6 p.m. and then tried bottle feed at 6.30, with above consequences.  Last night he was down at 6 p.m., woke at 11 for a feed and then again for a feed at 4.30 this morning.  We always put him straight back into his cot after night feeds and he settles straight away.  He is never fed to sleep.

Any ideas??  And advice would be greatly appreciated!  Please help!

ME: 37 (IVF survivor of 4 m/c + 1 ect)
DH: 36 (my hero)
DS1: 20/05/05 (our miracle natural conception)
DS2: 18/12/06 (2nd miracle; 5 weeks prem)

Offline rebecaq

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Re: Need help with bedtime routine!
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2007, 13:15:29 pm »
Hi Nike, welcome to the boards  ;)

First of all I'd like you to know that things aren't as bad as they seem  :-*

Does he always react the way he did to the post catnap bottle or was it just yesterday? If it was just yesterday he may just not have been ready for it. If it's everyday then maybe you are offering it too soon and he wasn't hungry just yet.

When you say you went in after the 5 minnute mark of him crying...how was he crying? Was he whimpering or was he genuinely upset? I'm asking so to avoid any CC or CIO. Tracy's theories on crying is that if he is really upset you go in, no matter what and as many times as needed.  ;)

While we would all give any for predictability, at 8 weeks that's not going to be the overall norm. And as babies hit growthspurts, milestones and teethe things always get out of whack. My ds is 21 months and just when things get predictable he starts waking at 5 am  ::)  (our current situation  :P  )  I do think there is one thing that may be causing trouble. You said "I have tried everything!!" that usually means that you have tried everything except consistency.  And being a routine girl, I suspect you may be going into overdrive trying to find the best solution. But with babies, especially one so young, it best to gives thing a few days to see if they work.  So if you find the catnap to be hit and miss, try a few days without it, and by that I mean more than 5 days and see how he does over all. If it doesn't work then we'll try something else. Ok?

Overall his routine looks really good for his age  ;D

- Beca
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Offline nike

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Re: Need help with bedtime routine!
« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2007, 03:27:22 am »
Beca, a huge thank-you for taking the time to respond to my post!  And I see by your ticker that congrats are in order on your 2nd pregnancy :)

I think you hit the nail on the head when you said that, being a routine girl, I am going into overdrive trying to work one out!  So true!  It also didn't occur to me that I need to put something into practise more than once before I up and change it on the poor little guy again.  I know I have been blessed with a really good, contented little fellow, but I guess my frustration mainly stems from not being able to read his cues.  I am also new to the whole bottle/formula thing.  With #1 son if I thought he was hungry I could easily offer him the breast and if he rejected it, then it's easy enough to put away.  With formula, though, I find myself tipping bottle after bottle down the sink - especially in our night routine when I try and give him a feed before a bath then a top-up before bed.  Like I said in my previous post, if he doesn't want the top-up he gets really worked up...but then he might wake 15 minutes later for it....or in the case of last night, when he wouldn't settle I offered it again 5 minutes after putting him in his cot, and him having a little cry, and he was more than happy to take it.  Maybe it's just my babies that have their peculiar little quirks!

So can I ask for your advice re. this plan:  if I do manage to get an afternoon catnap in, say from 4.30 to 5.30 such as yesterday, should I then immediately start night routine, as in feed, bath/massage, top-up (if required) and bed?  How do I know if, like other babies, he wants to stay up a bit longer in the p.m.?  Again, I find it really difficult to work out the difference between his hunger and tiredness grizzles.  Sometimes he'll put a fist in his mouth and start sucking on it (particularly during the night feeds) and I know he definitely wants a bottle.  It's so confusing!

As for the crying in his cot on putting down for a nap/sleep, I think I've read every post on what the mantra cry sounds like, but again I can't tell the difference!  He does close his eyes and bob around on the mattress to self-settle (I have a tummy sleeper) while he's doing the cry.  He rarely cries at all, to tell you the truth.  I would NEVER allow my child (particularly this age) to cry for more than 5 minutes before going in to provide comfort.  It goes against everything I believe in.  I have tried soothing and calming techniques with him and he's not a baby that likes to be held.  He will squirm away and fight to get out of your arms.  A bit sad, really, as DS1 was a cuddly little bub.  It's only in the last couple of weeks that my DH and I have worked out he prefers to get on with it himself, rather than interference from us.  He literally will squawk for a minute or two and then he's out to it.

If you can think of anything else that may help, I would appreciate the heads up.  Thanks again for your input :)
ME: 37 (IVF survivor of 4 m/c + 1 ect)
DH: 36 (my hero)
DS1: 20/05/05 (our miracle natural conception)
DS2: 18/12/06 (2nd miracle; 5 weeks prem)

Offline rebecaq

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Re: Need help with bedtime routine!
« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2007, 12:51:27 pm »
Nike,

Aaaaah, it takes a routine to freak to know one  ;)  I used to be so obssessed with time frames, milk amounts, wind downs that eventually dh had to sit me down and lecture me on the "nazi" I had become  :-[ :-[ :-[ That put things in perpective, you know?

Maybe he doesn't like being held because if the reflux? And whether he's not as cuddly as your first ds doesn't mean he doesn't adore you  8)

As for not being able to read his cries. Big {{{HUGS}}} hun, it's not easy, for even the second time around. I saw this video on Oprah not too long ago and wished I had seen it when ds was younger, maybe to can help you out
http://www2.oprah.com/tows/slide/200611/20061113/slide_20061113_350_102.jhtml
It's Priscilla Dunston, an Australian mom who gives you the "code" to babies cries.

As for not wanting to throw away formula...what if you offer the bottle with just water? If he seems willing to take it then pour in the formula mix and give him the bottle. Might be worth a shot  so you don't have to keep pouring formula out  ;)

I hope you didn't take offense to my asking about his crying :-\   As a mod I have to make sure that people are follwong Tracy's ideal  ;) I'm glad to hear you are so against CIO  :-*

So can I ask for your advice re. this plan:  if I do manage to get an afternoon catnap in, say from 4.30 to 5.30 such as yesterday, should I then immediately start night routine, as in feed, bath/massage, top-up (if required) and bed?  How do I know if, like other babies, he wants to stay up a bit longer in the p.m.?  Again, I find it really difficult to work out the difference between his hunger and tiredness grizzles.  Sometimes he'll put a fist in his mouth and start sucking on it (particularly during the night feeds) and I know he definitely wants a bottle.  It's so confusing!

Sure you can start the night routine, and if you feel he needs a bit more time to be awake, then slip in a lulabye session, or reading. That's a great low key activity for the night  ;D

So, let's do soemthing, try the catnap way with the little bit longer bedtime routine afterwards until the end of next week, and then we can see how he's handling it. Sound like a plan?

- Beca :-*
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Offline nike

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Re: Need help with bedtime routine!
« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2007, 03:29:45 am »
Hi Beca, and thanks again!  I will persevere with the catnap in the afternoon and then keeping him up for 2 hours till bed and see how we get on.  So watch this space.... ;)
ME: 37 (IVF survivor of 4 m/c + 1 ect)
DH: 36 (my hero)
DS1: 20/05/05 (our miracle natural conception)
DS2: 18/12/06 (2nd miracle; 5 weeks prem)

Offline nike

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Re: Need help with bedtime routine!
« Reply #5 on: March 23, 2007, 09:43:42 am »
Just an update on tonight:  I successfully managed to get a catnap in from 4 to 5 p.m.  I then offered another bottle on waking (he last ate just before 3 p.m. but was very squirmy and only took 70 ml).  He's been having smaller bottles in the day, so don't know whtat's happening there.  Am thinking we need to go back to dr. to review Zantac dosage.  Frustratingly, he's taking his two biggest feeds during the night  ::)Anyway, he took 60 ml at this feed.  We then did bath at 5.45 p.m. and he sat in his rocker while we ate dinner at 6.  Just before 6.30 p.m. I took him into the nursery (darkened, night light, Peace Baby CD going) and sat in the rocking chair and gave him cuddles.  Up till now he hadn't been too bad but was starting to get really grizzly and jerky.  Based on last night's performance, I didn't even attempt to offer a top-up bottle.  Anyway, Fidget started squirming away from me and getting distressed, so I had to put him down in the cot.  Cried for five minutes and then I picked him up, sat back in the chair and he polished off 160 ml - exactly like last night.  So what the???!!! ??? ???  DH's theory is that he just needs to let off a bit of steam at night.  Boy, this kid is hard to read!  So then I burped him, he was relaxed, awake but sleepy, put him back in the cot and haven't heard from him since.

So another q'un if I can!  Is waking up from catnap at 5 p.m. and sleep time at 6.30 (which became 7 p.m. after he finished the bottle) too long awake time?  DH thinks we should have a consistent bedtime, but how do I do that when he wakes up at different times in the afternoon?  I am a girl who likes to be told what to do....lol....so could you PLEASE give me a specific schedule I can work to??  DS1 is 22 months but is no trouble, and DH often cooks dinner (which I have prepared earlier in the day) and has a bath with DS2, stories, etc.  Ideally I would love to eat as a family, which is why tonight worked out.  DS1's routine before DS2 came along was that we eat dinner as a family at 6 p.m., bath at 6.30 p.m., stories at 7 p.m. and bed at 7.15 p.m.  Ideally I would like to get DS2 to sleep by 6.30 so I can have the last 45 minutes with DS1 before he goes to bed.  At the moment the times are all over the place.  What do other people do?????

Anyway, I'm sorry to be such a bother but I am really looking for some guidance with regard the night time routine.  The rest of the day is fine.  Thanks again in advance :)
ME: 37 (IVF survivor of 4 m/c + 1 ect)
DH: 36 (my hero)
DS1: 20/05/05 (our miracle natural conception)
DS2: 18/12/06 (2nd miracle; 5 weeks prem)

Offline rebecaq

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Re: Need help with bedtime routine!
« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2007, 12:44:21 pm »
Nike,

You silly goose, now why would I be a mod if I thought it would be a bother to help out  ::) LOL

Your dh is on to something. The last A of the day for a baby so young is known as the "social" hour. Not very social as it is just crying and fussing. And they are doing exactly what your dh said, letting off steam. You could have known when it was 5pm in my house because on the dot ds would start up.

What if you just simply don't offer the bottle when he wakes from his catnap? Offer it to him at the time he's taking it and you can both spare yourselves the fight. Just a thought. And don't worry about feeding him to sleep. It's ok for them to get drowsy and even fall asleep at the last bottle.

What do you think?

- Beca
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Offline donna_issabella

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Re: Need help with bedtime routine!
« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2007, 13:09:56 pm »
Hi Nike,

I am also a bit of a routine girl, and like consistency.

I have tried for MANY days to get ds to sleep between 4-7, as by bath time he is impossible, but it has been HARD. It is as if he just does not want to miss out on anything. Problem is he is usually grizzly and bathtime NOT fun then, as he is overtired.

So for the past two days i have also kept on comforting him and getting him to sleep between 5-6. He is 12 weeks today. We then almost immediately start the bedtime routine, which is bath, massage of sorts, singing whilst feeding , burping and bed. All this takes about 1 hour. If he is very grizzly, I cut the bath and massage short and prolong the feeding and singing to make up the hour. ( I sing whilst i bottle feed him) He becomes very drowsy on the bottle, but never asleep, as i only swaddle him afterwards. I find this works for us and for the past week- 10 days bedtime has been 7pm, give or take 10 minutes.

My sister's 3 babies ALL had meltdowns in the early evenings round about this age, as has my ds, and in SA they refer to it as evening colic. Not proper colic, just 'letting off steam'. I usually end up carrying Henry for most of this time, if i can't get him to nap, because he is impossible to put down, and gets quite inconsolable. Even after the nap it is as if he needs the cuddles. I realise your LO is less inclined.

Not sure what my aim with the post is  ;), perhaps just to say you aren't alone and as my sister says EGBOK, this too shall pass.

Good luck. I think the offer water and add formula later sounds like a great plan, i thought the same.

DI

PS: EGBOK = Everything's going to be OK

Offline nike

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Re: Need help with bedtime routine!
« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2007, 09:37:02 am »
Hello again Beca and thank you for also taking the time to respond to my ramblings, Donna! 

Today DS woke from his 3rd (afternoon) nap at 3.30 p.m. and whilst showing tired signs an hour later, he simply refused another catnap to tie him over till bedtime.  So I got him up and the whole family, plus the dog, went for a leisurely walk around the block with the pram till 5.30 p.m., whereupon I gave DS some nappy free time while I ran a bath, then a lovely massage and into the bath.  Took him into the nursery at 5.45 and sat in the rocking chair.  This time, instead of proceeding straight to bottle (which has been a disaster in past days) mother and son had a quiet little chat.  I then offered him the bottle (he took 100 ml upon waking at 3.30) and he calmly drank the whole 160 ml, burped and then into bed awake but very sleepy.  Success!

As per my last question, though, how do I get a consistent bedtime if he's still waking at different times from his afternoon sleep?  DH and I had yesterday decided on 6.30 p.m., then enabling us to all eat together as a family, but today since DS woke at 3.30 p.m. it seemed too long a time (3 hours) to stretch him out till that bedtime, so we brought it forward till 6 p.m.  As it was, he didn't end up going to sleep till 6.15 p.m. as it took 1/2 an hour to feed. 

One thing I have realised is that he does cope quite well with the longer stretch, though (like you Donna) he needs quite a bit of attention, which is really difficult since I also have a toddler to attend to! 

Also, today DS had a 2 hour sleep from 6 - 8 a.m., a 2 hour sleep from 9 - 11 a.m. and then a 3.5 hour sleep from 12 - 3.30 p.m. - a grand total of 7.5 hours!  Of course it was probably too much to expect a catnap from him after all that....silly me :o  (Do you think this is too much??)

Donna, I love EGBOK!!!  Never heard of that one before ;D
« Last Edit: March 24, 2007, 09:39:24 am by nike »
ME: 37 (IVF survivor of 4 m/c + 1 ect)
DH: 36 (my hero)
DS1: 20/05/05 (our miracle natural conception)
DS2: 18/12/06 (2nd miracle; 5 weeks prem)

Offline donna_issabella

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Re: Need help with bedtime routine!
« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2007, 17:01:40 pm »
I think having a set time for bed is ideal, and textbook and angel babies will prolly fall into that easily. I have found with H that i HAVE to roll with the punches and if i try to keep it at 7pm regardless of the day, i will have a grumpy overtired baby that sleep poorly at night and then the next day we TRY and play catch up with the naps, which is already cr*ppy. Youare lucky he sleeps more that 45 minutes at a time. DS used to a few weeks ago, now he sleeps 45 minutes 4-5 times a day if i am lucky, which makes him sleep poorly at night. Just adjust nighttime with a few minutes i think, the alternative is not pleasant.