Length of time for success with wi/wo

[babyzanko]

Hi girls,
My son is about 18 months and has horrible sleep.  Takes sometimes 2 hours to fall asleep, I must be in the room, sometimes patting required, sometimes 2 bottles of milk required, getting up about every 2-3 hours in the night requiring more patting or milk to fall back asleep. I've tried the pu/pd and ferberizing before and it did work. But with every travel or illness, he went right back to his old routine. He's only slept through the night about 2 weeks out of the entire 18 months.  There is a new baby coming in 5 months so we were going to try to pi/pd adn then ferberize him (required to get him weaned off me in the room but doens't last long--only about 2 5 min sessions with him) but he can get out of his crib. And, not gracefully. He puts his foot up against the slats, pulls himself up with his arms, then teeter totters on the crib rail till he fall out and goes thump. Because I'm afraid he might land in an awkward position and sprain something, I decided to give up and maybe just bribe him to sleep when he's older. Then I came across this forum with the wi/wo technique. This would solve the problem of his crashing over his crib since it takes him about 15-20 sec to acheive this.

Just wanted to know, how long did it take most of you moms to get your child to sleep through the night without your aid?  We have a lot of travel, visitors coming in the near future and  I'd like to figure out the best time to begin this. Have most moms been successful? How many hours did the first few nights take?  How many days or weeks in total?

My toddler is soooo active. He also has a difficult time settling himself because he's always so wired. If I'm in the room, he can play for 3 hours without falling asleep. He just can't seem to shut his brain off. He's always in play mode, very happy, very goofy. I think that's another issue.

Thanks in advance for all your feedback. Once I get started on this I'll post. I'll probably need a lot of reassurance and further advice.

Oh, one other question, so the first night it's 5 seconds walk out. Is that the time limit for the entire night. When do you start to add further time?  Is it in 5 sec increments? Do you add the 5 sec increments on a daily basis or every time they wake up at night?

Thanks again.

[leticia]

Hi babyzanko, I am not able to answer all your questions, I am still in progress with the training myself, but what I can tell you is that we are doing MUCH better, my daughter is 15 mths used to sleep 45 min nap with lots of trouble and needed bottle to sleep, plus several wakings at night and early wakings... Now she has a 2 hr nap everyday, no longer needs the bottle, less wakings at night and sometimes she can go back to sleep on her own and wakes up 7 or 7:30 every morning..... it took us about 4 or 5 terrible nights with lots of crying, etc.. but things started to improve pretty fast, we are not done yet but I am happy with what we've accomplished so far, I think it depends of the child and you also, sometimes I can do WI/WO but sometimes I have to pat her back etc, for me it can't be the same everytime, sometimes she is teething, etc. I wish you luck and I can tell you this methods work but need a lot of commitment and consistency but I truly think it is worth it, they don't fell left on their own at any time........ I'll be glad to give you support any time (I've had a lot myself in this forum)..........Bye, lety.

[yaya]

hi there! MY DS sounds exactly the same as urs! don't even ask me about sleep training with mine as it has been and is a bumpy ride! when it did work , it took a while for us to see results mostly because he had been sooo dependent on me to sleep before but from what I hear a week or so is about average!

[mari]

Firstly, Could you post your toddlers Routine, it might help with the advice that we give you.

As you have done Ferberizing (is that like CIO?) I would advise that you neverr do this again.  It will cause all sorts of problems including Seperation Anxiety.  Tracy's techniques are far more gentle and neither her of this site would advise CIO.

There is no set time to leave your child when doing WIWO.  The techniques are based on listening to the cries, working out what they are telling us and responding appropriately.

I look forward to reading your daily routine with regards to naps, food etc and we'll see what we can work out.

Mari

[babyzanko]

Let's see. He's on a schedule but it's forward or backward about an hour. It all depends on how long it takes for him to fall asleep at night. If it takes 2 hours, then he falls asleep at 10, in which case I let him sleep in till 8ish. That also pushes his naps forward an hour. The schedule I try to follow is:

7:00-7:30 Wake up
7:30-8:00 lounge around
8:00-9:00 Breakfast and clean up
9:00-10:00 TV
10:00-11:00 Playtime and a snack
11:00-11:30 Walk in jogging stroller
11:30-2:00 Naptime (usually sleeps 2 hours and takes only 30 min of bottle and tapping bum b/c he's tired from too little night sleep)
2:00-3:00  Lunch
3:00-5:00 Playtime, sometime outdoors in park, sometimes indoors
5:00-6:30 I make dinner and clean up while he helps, plays in kitchen or watches TV
6:30-7:30 Bath, listen to music and dance (no book as he has the shortest attention span and I'm just reading aloud to myself)
7:30-8:00/8:30 Play with dad when he gets home
8:00-8:30 Put him to bed. Shortest time it takes to fall asleep is 30 min, longest it has taken is 2 hours, average is an hour. Tonight I put him down at 8:00 and he fell asleep with a bottle of milk, lots of tapping and some yelling at 9:15.

I know his schedule could be more structured but I don't think the schedule is the big issue. The big issue is he's never had to fall asleep without me there. When he wakes up at night, I've almost always been right there, helping him back to sleep with milk or more tapping. There are times, in the middle of the night, where he tries really hard to fall back asleep but just can't and that frustrates him.

He also seems to have developed horrible separation anxiety lately. He freaks out and goes looking for me if I leave the room.  Sometimes I wish I could put him back into my uterus.

[babyzanko]

Leticia,
So at what point did you take the bottle away. Did you do it step by step or did you just go cold turkey. Plot you toddler into the crib and then leave and begin the wo/wi. 
How often was she waking up at night? Bottle and tapping then too? Your toddler sounds a lot like mine.

A week isn't bad. I could do it for a week. How many hours did it take you the first night and subsequent nights? Was it easier doing the wi/wo for the night wakings. For me, taking 2 hours to put my son to sleep I can handle, what I can't handle is the waking up 5-15 times a night. That is what is killing me. I wouldn't even mind a 5am waking. I'd just go to bed early. But the night wakings are killing me.

[babyzanko]

Oh, to add to that schedule, Brendan is a horrible eater. He's sooo picky. When we travel, he doens't eat at all. 8 days in Hawaii, didn't eat a bite. Just milk. A week in Canada, didn't eat either. I dont' know how he grows and where he gets all his energy from. He's always on the go. He has a hard time shutting off his brain to fall asleep initially b/c he's always in play mode.

At home, there are only about 5 or 6 things that he really likes. I'm still experimenting and trying to find more foods but it's been difficult. The amount he eats in an entire day would constitute one meal for another toddler his age. And that's with only about 12 oz of milk, so it's not like he's filling up on milk. At night, I give him water or a few sprinkles of formula into water. Besides poor eating and sleeping, he's a gem. He's such a happy child, always in play mode, very goofy, and lots of fun.

[yaya]

Babyzanko...just wanted to say that my DS was like this with eating till not long ago. I was told to stop worrying about it as he was picking up on it and prob to some extent  started being difficult for attention (not in such a conscious way obviously!). I also realized it was 'in between' texture that he has difficulty with such as between pureed and chewable toI started to offer more chewable stuff and he totaly improved. Here are a few suggestions that work really well with my DS: chicken breast grilled and cut into small pieces with a pair of scissors (much quicker than knife and fork!), fish (crumbles easily and easily to swallow) just break it with a fork, sautè potatoes cut into small bits, small pasta with a bit of butter and parmisan cheese (DS isnt abid fan of other sauces) , let me know if u need any more suggestions!

re : the sleep, totally agree with Mari about the ferberizing. TOTALLY udnerstand the SA , my son is just getting over a bout thats been going on off and on since he was 12 mos. If the SA is really bad you can use a gentler method of sleep training where u stay in the room instead of wi/wo, can talk you through it if you like.

Just wante to add that teaching independent sleep is so worth it and will really help with sleep issues but u need to be consistent and see it through. Also i would recommend waking him at 7 am regardless of what time he fell asleep the night before. He will learn to fall asleep quicker and then u stick to a good routine. BTW my son is exactly same as yours in the 'switching off to fall asleep' thing so can really relate, am still in the process of trying to sort out our bedtimes so no great advice there except don't stress tooo much about it, some kids do take hrs to wind down, not much we can do about it (wish I could accept this!
re: the sleep )
good luck

[leticia]

It has to be cold turkey, if not you confuse them more and I think that you give them the message that if they cry harder or for a longer time they will eventually get the bottle and its torture for you and for them. I didn't do WI/WO until she knew she wouldn't have a midnight bottle, at first I stayed with her all the time conforting her, she cried for a couple of hours she even vomited twice, then she realized she wouldn't get it and went to sleep.... but don't be scared it takes like 3 terrible nights and then everything starts to get better, I am still doing WI/WO but sometimes I don't even have to go in her room at all, she goes back to sleep by herself, she doesn't ask for milk anymore and the number of wakings are less and less as days pass by.
For me it was important to do some changes in her routine, now she has dinner at 5:30 so she can take her bottle at 7 before her bath..... then she goes to bed only with her paci and then when she wakes up at night and don't go back to sleep on her own I just go in, make sure everything is all right and thats it. I even changed the brand of her milk because she didn't had enough, now she is on one she likes a lot and that way I'm sure she doesn't need it at night. But I think once you get started you can't go back, I don't know how long it will be for you but you will have to be willing to do it if not I have the feeling things would only get worse because they learn.... Just don't leave him alone at first, be with him until he goes back to sleep and I promise you there will be improvement, I really mean it, at one point I thought everything was a mess but now I regret I didn't do it before........ Contact me any time.... Good luck.
                                                                   Lety.

[babyzanko]

So Yaya, is your toddler not sleeping through the night then? Are you still working on it?
Thanks for the meal suggestions. I'll give those a try.

[mari]

Babyzanko, if you want to know how long it will take for you to sleep tain your baby until he is sleeping through the night then I would say that it all depends on how many problems you are dealing with (ie, independant sleep, co sleep, props etc) and above all, consistency.
I had to deal with a prop (bottle to fall asleep and during nightwaking) and then I had to teach independant sleep.  All in all I'd say that it took about 2 weeks before I could start WIWO (after GW) and then after starting WIWO it was 4 weeks before I didn't need to do it for bedtime.  I still had nightwakings and they stopped completely after around 2 months but they were not as long as they had been so much easier to cope with.
I must stress that consistency is the most important thing here.  You won't see a difference overnight, or in a week, some find that their lo's adapt well, others it seem sto be forever.  The one thing that I can promise is that if you are consistent and really work at it, your child and you will be able to enjoy a good nights rest and you will feel so much better for it.

I agree with Leticia that you should go cold turkey for the milk.  Some suggest to water it down, but TBH I think that it could be confusing and give the wrong message.
If you are suer that Brendon is not hungry then he should, at his age, be able to sleep.  If you are concerned about his eating then perhaps you could start another thread about your concerns on the Eating for toddlers forum.  There are some great ideas there.

The seperation Anxiety could be due to CIO so perhaps you should try GW to start with.  Be with him in the room, but try not to tap and don't offer milk. Just try to reassure him that you are there and it's ok.  See how you go with that for starters.

I also think that his bedtime could be a little late.  I'd suggest a bedtime of 7-7.30pm.
Mari

[happy2bamum]

Babyzanko,

I am still in the early stages of wi/wo myself. We started it nearlly 2 weeks ago and have found it to be pretty good. We had about 4 horrible nights of crying but now I don't even have to walk in much at all. DD is definately self-settling now. We still have a 6am wake up and a one and a quarter to one a half hour nap during the day instead of the desired 2 hours but I can't really complain when I look at where we were beforehand.

We had got to the stage where we were letting her crash on her lounge and then transferring her to bed whilst asleep. This was happening from September last year to January this year (I kid you not!). Then we did gradual withdrawal from late January onwards. We saw an improvement because she was falling asleep in her own bed. Then I really got jack of having to be in her room in order for her to go to sleep and found that she was still waking a lot through the night unable to put herself back to sleep. I also started to panic because I have a baby coming in July. That  is why I started wi/wo and as I said, it was after we had been through gradual withdrawal for about 3 months and there was about 4 nights of crying (in our case - totally individual to the child as the others have pointed out).

 I still consider it a work in progress though because I have to stay consistent. I can't allow myself to slide into old habits again. I have never really ferberized DD as I can't take the crying at that level. What I wanted to say is that it takes time and IMO, gradual withdrawal may be the way to go at first just to build that trust up again especially after ferberizing or where a child has been allowed to fall asleep outside of their cot as in our case. I'm not saying you will have to do GW for months at a time and I'm by no means an expert. Perhaps jumping straight into wi/wo is the way to go in your case...but whatever you choose to do, it will take a while to become a new established routine. Let us know what happens. Come and join us in the support group.

The other thing I wanted to add is that I waited outside and counted to 30 before going in as 5 wasn't long enough for DD - it seemed to get her more aggravated if less than 30 seconds. Also I noticed in the sleep interview that Tracey talks about walking out for 1 minute before walking in again if the child is crying.  So you may need to try different times before going in. I went with this time on the basis of reading someone else's story on the support group thread and found it also worked for us.

[mari]

Thanks for sharing your success with us happy2bamum.

The only thing that I'd like to stress is that we should try not to put a time on how long it should be before we go back in to them, it's best if we listen to the cries and respond appropriately.  For instance, they could be just moaning and wimpering, but this is often just a cry that will help them to settle so it's best not to go in as you might do more damage, then on other occasions the cry might tell you 'Mum, where are you, I need you'  then you should go in soon. 
I did count up to 15 with Alex, but only when I knew the cry was asking me to help her sleep, and not an 'I really need you' cry.  We all have our magic numbers and 15 was mine!
Just try to listen to the cry and respond appropriately.
HTH

[happy2bamum]

Yes you are right Mari - I should have made that more clear. If it is a distressed cry in the middle of the night, I always go in and check that nothing is wrong and I'm glad I haven't been too extreme with the wi/wo routine as if I hadn't gone to DD the other morning just to check on her first, I wouldn't have seen that she had actually vomited in her sleep and was sick with a bad virus.

I only start the "count" after i've checked on DD first and when the cry is a real cry and not a mantra cry. Most of the time I have found that I don't even need to continue to count because DD has stopped crying and settled herself. Anyway it is all still new for us and I am finding that I continue to have the odd challenge but I feel much more confident that DD can self-soothe now.

Good luck with it all babyzanko!