11mo - If I shorten first nap to 45 mins will the 45 nap monster kick in again?

[traineeparent]

My DD is 11 months.  After being a 45 min napper for months, at 6 months she started napping well - 2 x 1 - 1.5 hr naps.  Lately she's refusing the 2nd nap (and occasionally the first nap too - but that might be teething).

I've read on the "2-1 Nap" board to shorten the first nap to an hour or 45 mins.  Shortening it to 1 hr hasn't worked. Tried that for a couple of weeks (mind you she refused a few all together and had a fever for a couple of days).  If I shorten it to 45 mins will the 45 nap monster kick in again?  Could it mean she'll wake from her 2nd nap at 45 min mark?   Should I wake her at 30 mins?   

I haven't had 2 decent naps in a row for about 3 weeks now. Occasionally get a 45 min nap after a 1 hr nap.   She stands up, sits up (new thing) and cries if I leave.  I've learned that if she resists naps or bedtime usually there's something wrong with the routine.  Same thing happened when we needed to drop the catnap (resisting bedtime).

I really don't want to fight her and do PUPD etc. Cos I know she knows how to go to sleep by herself. If she resists the 2nd nap I've taken her out in the car believing she'll go down better at night. But it seems that if she wakes any later than 2.30 she resists bedtime as well.   (i.e. slept in car till 3.15 or 3.30 = resisting bedtime).

We have had problems at bedtime since she learned to sit up/pull up 3 weeks ago but I think the novelty of that has mostly worn off.    Most nights she settles ok now - as long as she has been awake since 2.30 or earlier.

Does this mean she's going to 1 nap, or should I keep trying to cut short the first nap to get a better 2nd nap. It's really driving me crazy.

Routine:

7:00 wakes up (occasionally have to wake her)
7:00   BF (wont’ take much if fed at 5am or later)
8:45   Solids - Breakfast
9:30/10:00   Nap (Usually 1¼ - 1½ hrs)
11:30 BF  (starting to drop this feed, moving 3pm feed earlier but she often refuses that too.)
12:30  Solids - Lunch
1:30/2:00   Nap (Was usually 1hr - but sh'es been resisting this lately)
3:30  BF
5:45  Solids - Dinner     
6:15   Bath
6:30   BF
6:45   Bedtime wind-down
7:00   In Bed. Usually asleep by 7:30

If she's had no 2nd nap I do dinner at 5pm and aim for 6.30 bedtime (i.e most days lately 

We've still got nightwakings and have been feeding....
Usually 10/12 and 5, or just 2/3:

10/12 wakes sometimes, DH can usually resettle.
2 - 3 wakes.  DH tries sh-pat. Feed
5 – 5.30.  Very occasionally wakes at this time.  Feed. If earlier than 6.30 put back to bed.

(I’ve been waiting longer between bedtime feed and put-down 10 mins + and I think it’s improving).

Any advice is much appreciated.

[KathrynK]

when dd was 11mo and I started to shorten her am nap, I started by shortening it to 1hr, but after a week or so it was clear that it wasn't having the desired effect, so I shortened it to 45 mins and that totally did the trick! For many babies at this age anything more than 1 sleep cycle can leave them too rested to take the pm nap. Try 45 mins for a week or so and that should help.
Don't worry about it possibly causing a short pm nap, that doesn't seem to be a usual side effect of this transition.

[traineeparent]

Thanks.  I just ask because even when her napping was at its best, she would occasionally do a 45 min nap (undertired?) or a 35 min nap (overtired?). I have to get the timing so exactly right. 

Looking at the sample routines I see lots of LOs sleeping till 3.30 or 4.  Once I've got a short AM nap and a longer PM nap do you think it's likely she'll resist bedtime if she sleeps this late?  She seems to resist it if she's slept later than 2.30 (looking back at my notes!)  I guess there's only one way to find out.

[KathrynK]

when dd was 11 mo she could sleep till 4 and still go to bed at 7 with no problems- as she got older I gradually had to bring that nap earlier and earlier, at 15mo she had to be awake by about 3.15pm to avoid bedtime problems. But all lo's are different in terms of handling longer A times at different times of day. I think like you said it's going to take some juggling- when you make a change I would give it a few days before you decide whether or not it's working, don't expect a change immediately!

[traineeparent]

Thanks.  Well I tried it and I'm pleased to day it worked like a dream yesterday!!!     After 45 mins I woke her.  Then at the 2nd nap she slept for 1.5 hrs!  Today wasn't so good, I woke after 50 mins (lost track of time) and she only slept 20 mins for her 2nd nap.  Took a while to get to sleep, perhaps the nap was too late.  But at least she went to sleep, after the last 3 weeks of her refusing her 2nd nap completely.   Both nights she's gone down at bedtime fine so that's a relief.    I'll keep at it I'm sure it's going to work. Thanks again.

[traineeparent]

Hi there. Well that was beginner's luck!  The problem I'm having is if I go out in the car for an appointment after that morning nap, she's falling asleep or nearly falling asleep in the car on the way back and then she still refuses the PM nap!  That's happened twice.  And it seems if she has just a few minutes of shut-eye it's enough to refresh her! 

Once she wouldn't do a AM nap at all so I got a good PM nap. But if she wakes at 3pm or later she's hard to get down at night - standing etc. Do other people have this problem?  I shouldn't have to do PUPD to retrain her should I? Surely the routine is wrong?  If she's tired she just goes straight to sleep.

I could keep trying cutting short the AM nap but it's going to be hard to go out and keep her awake.   I'm wondering if I should just try to gradually move the AM nap later and later, as in Tracey's book.

Any suggestions?

[Layla]

Hey there. I found that even a 5min catnap would refreshen Isabella and she would fight her pm nap. I haven't dared to take Jasmine out in the car during this transition. After the morning nap she is ok to stay up for about 3 hrs and won't fall asleep. I woudln't shorten the morning nap any more than 45min at 11 months. You really only do that towards the end of the transition. You can try to push her morning nap till you get to noon (as mentioned in the book) but if you are heading towards overtiredness (like early morning starts, waking up night or short nap) then I would go back to 2 naps.

You shouldn't do pupd for her if she's not crying. You can't force her to sleep. IF she's just playing and not napping, let her be and aim for an earlier bedtime. Unfortunately this transition can take a few months and you might find a few rough months in the beginning.

hth
Layla

[traineeparent]

Thanks for that.  Glad I'm not alone on that one!  I think that shortening the AM nap isn't going to work. Today she had the AM nap at 10, woke her at 10.45. Then PM nap at 2.30, fell asleep 2.45. Awake an hour later.  But then tonight she just wouldn't go to sleep.  Not really crying just grizzling, standing up. You can't leave the room then she really does cry.   (Yet if she's tired she just goes straight to sleep so I don't think SA is a big issue right now ).  I just take her out of the room now and try again later (never thought I'd end up doing that). Finally 9.30 she's asleep!   Previously if she's woken from the PM nap later than 3 she's hard to settle at night, this just seem to prove it again.

So I might just go with slowly moving the AM nap later. She wakes at night a couple of times anyway, so what have i got to lose    DH can usually rub her back and she goes back to sleep for the first waking (though  I am usually feeding once a night).   It's such a vicious cycle.

Thanks again.