34mo waking screaming several times a night....please help!

[Elodie's Mum]

Hi everyone.

It's been a LONG time since I posted on these boards but I'm really hoping someone might be able to help.

Elodie is almost 34 months old and has been waking at least three times a night for the last month or so. If anything, the wakings seem to be getting worse and more frequent with time. She tends to be a bit whiny when going off to sleep (between 8pm and 9pm), often calling me in as many as five times before dozing off. The first waking then normally happens around midnight, with wakings as often as every two hours after that. When she wakes during the night it's always screaming or shouting VERY loudly, often yelling 'I want you Mummy'. This won't stop until I go in and calm her for a few minutes. I've tried talking to her calmly from my own bed but this never works. She'll then wake up (also normally shouting or screaming for me) at any time between 7am and 8am.

To give you some background, she's been in her big bed now since just before Christmas. She still wears nappies at night time and still has one good nap (about 1.5 to 2 hours at around 2pm) about five days of the week. She does have a night light in her room and this doesn't seem to be the problem as she used to shout out 'turn the light on' during the night but since getting her a night light she's stopped shouting this.

Any ideas REALLY gratefully appreciated! Her little brother is due in two months time and I'm really not sure I could cope with this night screaming AND a newborn's eratic sleep patterns. Plus it's no fun being this pregnant and this tired all the time! 

Thanks in advance, everyone!

Em xxx

[mari]

My guess is that she could be feeling a little SA due to the new baby arriving.

Lots of reassurance needed as I am sure that you are giving.

Does she still nap in the daytime

[Samuel's mum]

posted at the same time as Mari

I know separation anxiety is a term that gets bandied about and people talk about it being specific to certain ages but I think anxiety can affect sleep at any age.

The obvious thing is that she is anxious about the coming baby - your bump has probably now got more obvious. She is literally seeking proof that you will still be there for her. In which case she needs some reassurance and it sounds like that's what you are offering but you need to gradually withdraw so she is comforted by less and less - in the end just a phrase from the doorway.

She may also respond to a reward system and talking it through: "mummy is really tired at night. If you can go back to sleep by yourself then in the morning X will happen." And perhaps give her something concrete she can do when she wakes - like tuck in particular toys, sing a sleepy song to herself to give her some sense of control.

Do you think she might be ready for less daytime sleep? Sam was born July 2004 and gave his daytime nap a few months ago - he has maybe one every 10 days now. When he does nap he is more likely to have night wakings.

[Layla]

Hey sorry just wanted to say I think the timing of the nap could have something to do with it as well. If she is having a nap at all, it ideally should be finishing around 2.30pm so that she is able to go to bed at 7.30-8pm but her nap starts at 2pm.... she could be heading towards dropping that nap as well

Layla

[mari]

Sorry folks.  Posted really quickly as something happened and I had to go.  Sorry it looked like I Hadn't read the post properly (which I didn't really, WW111 broke ut in the living room!!!)

Will be back later to see if I can help further.

[Elodie's Mum]

Thank you so much for the replies, Mari, Samuel's Mum and Layla!

It had crossed my mind that it might be related to the imminent arrival of another baby in the house. I've been trying to give her as much reassurance as possible but I've been a bit wary of giving her too much attention when she wakes during the night. I think trying a few reassuring words or sounds from the doorway might just work. Will give that a try.

I had also been worried about how late she was waking from her afternoon nap. The timing of her nap essentially meant that she was awake for about seven hours in the morning and then only about four hours before bedtime. I think I might try shifting it forwards at least an hour, preferably more. She definitely still needs a nap of some kind most days but perhaps it might need to be phased out altogether over the coming months. I've heard that a lot of toddlers stop napping altogether when their younger siblings arrive. Is that right?

Anyhow, thanks again ladies! It's so nice to have some good positive steps to put into place TODAY to get things moving in the right direction. Am soooooooooooo tired!!! And so is she I think, poor little moo.

Em xxx

[Layla]

I can totally sympathise with this. Isabella was 14months when #2 arrived and was in the middle of the 2-1 nap switch. Things were a bit hectic over here too. She stopped napping as well but I was pretty sure it was just a phase being that she was so young. I have heard that toddlers can give up naps with the arrival of the new baby.... but I would still be offering it & like you said it may just be that she is awake too long in the morning and is overtired by nap time. Try in  bed at 12.30 so that she is asleep by 1pm & wake her at 2.30pm (thats if it takes her 30mins to settle into nap).

Good luck & let us know how it goes
Layla

[Mum of girl, boy, boy]

I hope this doesn't come across the wrong way but it wouldn't surprise me if she knows what pushes your buttons and gets a bit of extra attention. I am not saying she hasn't picked up on the pregnancy at all and that might be part of it but if she expects something from you when she wakes even if its your attention when putting her back.

My DD starting climbing out of her cot/bed so we had to transition during our move to Australia - the worst timing ever.

Anyway at 3 I think you can talk to them and explain a fair amount. Firstly we had problems getting DD to nap then we had problems with her getting out of bed in the middle of night. I wouldn't be so insistent on her napping if she was fine when she missed them but she wakes up more at night and is a pain in the back side (constant crying at the end of the day and doesn't listen). I tried a reward chart and treats and that didn't help. DD obviously was upset because of all the change etc as well. In the end we told her we were going to do sleep training. And she wasn't allowed out of her room until she had napped and if she woke in the night we would return her to bed with no talking (sometimes we would just say "bedtime"). With DD it all became a big came until we got firm. She would run out of her room and try all sorts of things for attention until one day I just said to my husband enoughs enough. Whether its right or wrong I held the door shut and didn't say a work until she finally gave in and went to sleep. During the time before she gave up and went to bed she threw everything at us "its too light, its too dark, I've done a poo, shouting at the top of her voice, crying I want my mummy, I want my daddy, shouting wake up to her brother. I think she was just fuming at the boundary. We did spend some time before doing this talking to her what sleep training was. Day 2 she  did the same but it lasted less time and by day 3 she didn't bother. I would have preferred walk in walk out but if you have to catch them first it becomes a big game. Even if you think it is separation anxiety I think its important that the boundaries are clear and explained. And you are right to crack this now as soon as baby comes you will not have the time to work at it.

This is obviously just the way we have parented and I can understand if people don't agree with doing this to.

Good luck.

J

ps. all the 3 year olds I know have gone through some sort of acting up around bedtimes and during the night so your not alone.

[mari]

Alex is at the stage where she is napping some days and not on others so I do think that Elodie might be due to drop it soon.  I certainly think that she shoudl have it as early as possible and try to cut it down to 1.15hrs. and no later than 2.30pm wakeup.

I do also think that it is down to a little SA due to the expected arrival of the baby.  No doubt you have told her that she is due to have a little brother and I am sure that, along with excitement, she is feeling rather nervous about it. Understandably so.
I agree that she should be old enough to understand things if you explain it to her, and you should tell her that mummy is tired and she must go to sleep.  A reward chart might help at this age,  I did one for Nathan, but he was four at the time.  Keep it simple, explain what you want her to do and let her put the stars on in the morning, she might get to be excited about it.

I really don't think that closing the door and keeping her in her room is a good idea though, I think that it could cause more trouble, especially at this crucial time, this is the time that you need to really reassure her, that is what she is looking for. 

You should always be there and let her know that you will answer her needs and do whatever you can for her, but also be firm that she must go to sleep.  maybe say something like 'Go to sleep, we're tired, Elodie is tired and so is mummy, now is time to sleep.'  Then, when she wakes later, do less for her, jsut put her back to bed and leave. 
I hope this helps a little, but TBH, Nathan was apprehensive before Alex was born but after she arrived he was a lot more settled about things.  I let him get involved as much as possible (he even bathed her, that was fun!  )
Mari

[Mum of girl, boy, boy]

Just for interest I let my DD sleep in yesterday afternoon and guess what she didn't go to bed til nearer 10pm!!! Activities in the day were low to. She's been up since 630am and full of beans to. I do agree that you need to keep naps as early as possible. I reckon we need to skip naps at least once per week at the moment perhaps more if the activity has been low.

I agree that closing the door is not a great option at this time if it is sep anxienty etc. I am just saying that it depends why the boundary needs to be there and I definately have only used it at a last resort (tried returning to bed for 4 hours one nap and then for a further 2 days - it did get a little less!). Rapid return with my daughter turns into one massive game with me trying to catch her to put her back in bed. I know my daugther suffered sa when we moved countries and were in different hotels and houses. We did the reassurance thing for a long time and when it then moved from sa to game playing thats when we had to put some firm boundaries in.

Each case is different but it does change and like all things a new phase will be entered. I think that the boundaries need to be even more consistent when there is change looming.

Not sure if this helps you at all but just perhaps explains it all a bit more.

J

[mari]

I'm sure that.as all children are different, we do have to adapt methods to suit each individual child. What works for one might not work for another. 
The most important thing here is to remember that this it the website of Tracy Hogg and we should use her methods and adapt those to suit our individual children.  I was just a little conerned that the method was not really adaptable to any of Tracy's methods.  She used far more gentle methods and that is what I have always found works with mine.  Ok, sometimes they take a little longer initially, but the kind of methods that I am talking about in this thread should ensure that ongoing SA should not be an issue, I was worried that closing the door might cause future anxiety.
You know how their funny little minds work! 
Hope that Helps.

Alex is starting to drop naps too! 

Em, how are things going?

Mari

[Elodie's Mum]

Thanks Mari and J for all the suggestions. I really am terribly grateful! And thanks for asking how things are going, Mari.

Last night was horrendous to begin with! I watched her all day for signs of tiredness and she didn't display any so we tentatively went without a nap. We had a lovely soothing bath and bedtime routine but when I went to leave her she threw the worst tantrum I have ever seen. She screamed and kicked and threw things for a couple of minutes. I gently picked her up and put her back in bed without making too much fuss and without saying too much. I just gently said, 'time for bed, sweetie....you must be very tired'. The tantrum went on for a little while so I went back to her a few times, saying less each time but just gently stroking her head and after about four visits she went to sleep quietly.

During the night she woke up screaming at 3am, which is much later than usual. I went to the door and gently told her it was 'sleepy time' and that mummy was right next door if she needed me. I went back to bed but that didn't seem to work so I went back in and gently stroked her head a couple of times. I tried not to make too much, if any, eye contact. Is that right? After I left her she seemed to doze off pretty quickly. She woke up screaming again half an hour later but this time I managed to sooth her from the doorway and she went straight back to sleep until 8.30am!

So, despite the rather stressful start to the night, all-in-all I'd say that was a vast improvement! Hopefully if she wakes during the night tonight I might just be able to calm her from the doorway. We shall see. *Crossing fingers, toes, etc...*

Again, I really can't thank you ladies enough for all your advice. Thank you!!! 

P.S. I've only just realised that Elodie is, in fact, 33 months old and not 34. Blame it on the preggy brain! LOL!

[Layla]

I think you are doing wonderfully!!! Keep going in and reassuring her (& it doesn't always have to be with words, just your presence should calm her). Also on the days she doesn't nap, try an earlier bedtime perhaps 30mins earlier.

Let us know how it goes tonight 

[Elodie's Mum]

Thanks Layla! 

Didn't think of that but you're quite right...she probably will be needing a slightly earlier bedtime than usual. So far (it's almost 4pm here) she seems quite perky so it looks like a nap won't be even remotely missed today. Will probably try for a 7.30 bedtime then.

Thanks again. Will let you know how it goes.

Em xxx