NW - wet nappy, overtired, milestone??

[DavidsMum]

Hi Kat and Layla

How was your weekend? Things got a little crazy here with OT mum in tears every three seconds (that is so not me) but I am feeling more positive today. And we had some beautiful winter sunshine to play in yesterday.....I hear it is snowing on your side of the country Layla.

I seem to have trouble with the quotes but Kat asked about feeding and routines:
Here is what I am trying to stick to
700 BF
800 Breakfast
900 Nap1
1100 BF
1200 Lunch
1300 Nap2
1500 BF
1700 Dinner
1800 bath, BF
1830 In bed

This is what yesterday looked like - he took a cat nap the evening before and was in bed at 630 but took 20mins to get to sleep.

0520 - awake
0550 - call out for mum (ignored)
0610 - call out for mum (ignored)
0615 - crying - mum gets up
0650 - BF
0750 - breakfast - 1 x weetbix and 1 x banana
0845 - nap1 (really wouldn't last any longer)
0855 - asleep
0920 - screaming - mum resettled quite easily
0944 - awake and up
1030 - BF
1130 - Lunch steamed veges and lentils and 1 x cooked apple
1240 - in bed
1300 - asleep
1338 - screaming and would not resettle
1430 - BF
1600 - tried for catnap but really protested
1640 - dinner - roast chicken and veges, rockmelon, still hungry so had an apple, still hungry so had a weetbix
1730 - bath, BF, book and in bed at 1805
0505 - awake and could not resettle
0530 - nappy change and PUPD (he just rolls around in the cot after one PD - tried to go to sleep at one point with head down and thumb sucking)
0600 - DH's alarm sounds
0610 - give in and up
0625 - BF
0700 - breakfast - didn't even eat a whole weetbix
0720 -back in cot as he was grizzly and wouldn't play on the mat and just so tired.
0730 - asleep

He doesn't have a fear of the cot at all, except for the 4pm catnap attempt each time I put him down he didn't more than grizzle at most.

He is definitely not undertired....I can tell by the way he wakes up if he is rested or not.

He still makes very loud noises during the night but I don't think he is fully waking, he is just sleeping very lightly and so every 45mins he is needing to re-soothe himself.....so I guess the problem is no longer NW but more EW and nap issues.

Should I have put him to bed so early this morning or should I stick with the 9am plan???

DH was adamant that I should stick with 9am but it has been 12 days and that does not seem to be working for us. I just figured if I put him down before he was totally overtired he may actually sleep longer, as opposed to keeping him up 4 hours to 9am.

I would love your thoughts on this....stick with 9am or EW = earlier nap?

[Layla]

If he's awake really early, I would do a nap no earlier than 8.30am, only because an earlier nap can reenforce earlier wake ups. I don't think the catnap is going to work anymore. He's probably outgrown it so I would keep the early bedtime instead (honestly, if you have to put him to bed fro the night at 5.30pm if he's only had 40mins in the pm & won't take the catnap). At least he will have a full 11.5-12hrs of sleep at night (even if he wakes at 5in the morning). The pm nap is the one that really needs extending. Have you ever tried w2s to extend the nap? I know its for habitual wakings but it has helped me in the past to get her over the 40min cycle. I used to walk in at 30mins & stir her a little (move her blanket or something) & she would usually sleep for at least an hour

[DavidsMum]

An earlier nap can reenforce earlier wake ups

I read this somewhere the other day.

I am confused as to what to do to try not to reinforce the EW. If he does not go back to sleep what should I do....just try to stretch the day out to fit into the rest of the schedule???

Should I be ignoring his sleep cues at this age and trying to go by the clock?

Should I just be sticking straight to my schedule and in time he will just start sleeping again???

I really have no idea what I am doing anymore.

Today we had 4 x 45min catnaps so we will see how the night goes...although I think he may be coming down with something he was extremely out of sorts all day. 

[nursekat]

I really have no idea what I am doing anymore.

Sure you do, you are coming to BW and getting lots of love and support.   

I know a few Mommas that have had success with getting their LO on a SOLID routine WITH the early mornings (so 5:30am-5:30pm), getting past the OT, and then gradually moving the day back 15 mins at a time or so until you get closer to 7-7.

It is often very very hard for an OT bub to fall back asleep in the wee hours of the morning because they've had some good sleep during the night.

I would say do a combo of cues and clock - look for his cues for when he looks like he could be ready for a nap, then stretch him maybe 5-10mins more.  I agree that an early nap can reinforce the EW so it's a fine line to walk, especially when he's overtired - do you go by what he's looking like or push him a bit more?  My gut is to get him caught up a bit more then work on pushing him if that makes sense.  Go with the EWs for a few days and really try to get him some solid sleep and then start pushing him more toward your routine.

Is he spirited?  I know with my dd that OT is possibly the worse thing for her and her spirited-ness, which is why I kind of take the stance of "Do whatever it takes to get that sleep tank refilled and then start doing the major work."  It's not always the popular view here but that's what's worked best for us and our spirited dd.

Also, do you have his room blackened out?  Sorry if you already mentioned this but it's late here and I haven't gone back to reread - dd also did EWs until we blackened out her room and it really helped.

As far as feeding, he is getting to the age where you can drop down to 3 BFs, BUT that is a totally separate issue and probably not related.  His eating is looking rather decent.

HTH!

[donna_issabella]

Kat, sorry to ask here, but how was DD's B'day? I never saw a post - or remember seeing a post *blush* about it!!

DavidsMum, So sorry about you feeling so deflated. It is a tough situation, but one day you will just see that things have improved. Really. I know Henry is younger than David, but we had overtired and sleep issues too, and one day I just realised things had fallen into place. GOOD LUCK!!! And many many HUGS!

xx
DI

[DavidsMum]

I know a few Mommas that have had success with getting their LO on a SOLID routine WITH the early mornings (so 5:30am-5:30pm), getting past the OT, and then gradually moving the day back 15 mins at a time or so until you get closer to 7-7.

I am just so worried that we will get stuck on 530 and never make it to 7 again....we got stuck on 630 after the change back from daylight savings....before that we had a lovely 730-730 routine

Is he spirited? 

To be honest he came up with equal answers in the quiz except for grumpy. I would say he is touchy/spirited.
But sleep has always been spirited...we held him down when he was very little and if I ever missed his cues life was hell for the rest of the day....when he was 4 mths I had 2 days in a row where his sleep was interrupted due to appointments and it took 3 weeks to recover from that!!

Also, do you have his room blackened out? 

At 530am it is still dark in there, so much so I can not see him.
But during the day it is not possible to blacken out due to the lay out of the house.

I felt like I was making progress today as it was a little harder for him to fall asleep each nap...which I took as a sign that he was catching up on sleep and becoming aware that he is OT....but it may have backfired as I put him to bed at 6 and it is now 630 and he is really struggling.

I am thinking of starting the 2 to 1 now so I can get all of the misery out of the way in one go
I am not looking forward to that transition...at least I know you and Layla and BW will be there for me  

[nursekat]

HI DI...I only did a separate post for our trip we took the next week:  https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=92719.msg873137#msg873137  I think her actual b-day pics I posted on our birth board.  I think.  Some mummy I am, eh? 

David's Mom, yes spirited ones are HELL when OT, especially if he has some touchy in there as well!  If it's any consolation, we are doing the 2-1 now and it is going amazingly smoothly, although I am DEFINITELY holding my breath, LOL!

You might get stuck on the 0530-1730 routine for a bit but once he is well rested you will find it easier to slowly push.  The best advice I can give is that once I was pushing, she would handle it ok until the 3rd day and then we had to go back to her old times for one day to let her catch up then could commence pushing again the next day, like 3steps forward, 1 step back.

So at 6am or later when he starts his cry (and you are not ignoring him at that point) is it getting lighter?  If you don't mind me asking what is the layout so you can't darken it?

[Layla]

I just wanted to say that when the clocks changed in March 24, I started pushing for a later bedtime (rather than starting with the morning) & for 2 weeks straight, I was insisting on 1hr later, in the hope that she would wake later & I could start with the morning nap then & 2 weeks later, we hit a major OT zone. Her naps shortened dramatically, she was waking at night & I was resorting to feeding her at 5am so that she would get back to sleep . It was awful & after 2 weeks, I asked for help from one of the BW's (Kathrynk). Anyways, I took a step back and put her on the old routine - which meant a 5.30pm bedtime. Within a week, she was doing 12hr nights again & then it took me another 2 weeks to be able to start stretching her naps. FINALLY (& this only happenned recenlty) she has been waking up close to 6-6.30am (with an occasional 5:30am). It took me about 2 months of going back & forth.

[nursekat]

EW, Layla!  Sounds rough!  But I feel like it supports my biggest gut reaction to get the OT nipped first, then start working things out again...what do you think?

[Layla]

Kat, its the worst feeling ever... looking at the clock at 5am, waiting for her to start moaning. I used to pray everynight for a 6am wake up. Its such a killer to wake up so early and as Kathryn said to me, not a good way to start the day. I agree on the earlier bedtime. I always thought an earlier bedtime gets rid of OT. Its hard to get the concept though & I myself thought... I don't want to go backwards!!! I just want to go back to 6.30-7am start.,... which we still haven;t done. Its usually 6ish, sometimes 6.30 & occasionally 5.30-6. But Isabella has alot to do with it as well. If one doesn't wake up early, its the other  . Anyways, I wanted to thank you on responding as well. David's mum - YOU CAN DO THIS!!!!! 

[nursekat]

I have to confess any spells where we had 5am wakeups I treated it like a night feed and put her back down, she did well with going back to sleep but man it messed up the rest of her day's routine with her eating being way off.  I didn't care, I just wanted sleep, LOL!

Hey I just noticed (sorry David'sMum for straying) - how come you're not on our birth board?  Didn't I already ask you this once?  Sorry if I did. 

[Layla]

Well I was for about a day but OMG you ladies can talk so much and it was so hard to catch up.... so I gave up  . & I only get so much on the computer with the 2los (theres only 15mins Y time in my day cause their naps overlap) so I try to do a quick check throughout the day and answer as many posts as I can but to actually read pages and pages is a bit harder for me  . Maybe one day I'll join you ladies.... Is your lo on the 2-1 swtich yet? I am having a hell of a time with naps at the moment. I just want all this to be over!!!

[nursekat]

Yes we're on one nap now so don't slap me but it is going sooooo well I keep pinching myself to see if it's for real!  I'm sure it won't last, LOL! 

We CAN chat...sometimes I feel guilty for how much time I spend there as opposed to doing mod duties, but I love those ladies to bits and wouldn't want to lose what I have with them, kwim?  Come join us any time!  Get those naps overlapping more, LOL! 

(sorry again DavidsMum! )

[DavidsMum]

My you girls can chat...I wonder what mum's stuck at home with bubs did before www?

We took a huge step forward today...then slid 3 steps back

He woke at 520 but was happy, babbled to himself for an hour (I turned off DH's alarm and made him stay in bed) and then DS went back to sleep until 7

But then he had an appointment this morning and got very upset on the way home and we resorted to AP to get the am nap

Then he was only awake 2h20m and he started screaming that I had missed his nap time...he does this some times...happy playing and then crying mess with no indication it was coming. I tried to calm him down and put him in his cot but I only got 45 out of him and could not get him to resettle.

He went down very easily at 6 and was given clear instructions not to awake before 7am

Kat it is starting to get light at about 630ish I guess (sunrise 715)....his room has a good blind that keeps the window area dark....but the door to it is glass and there is a glass panel. I was thinking today that I could get some super curtains and blackout his room...like a photographic darkroom more for naps than EW...not sure how much that would cost but worth a shot...I am not sure where to buy them from

I am wondering whether the cold might have something to do with it, but he is in a grobag and dressed far warmer than they recommend.

I really need to get his naps sorted out as I think OT is the main cause of the problems.

[Layla]

I really need to get his naps sorted out as I think OT is the main cause of the problems

I think this is the key here. Him going back to sleep until 7am is a great start!!! & an indication that he is indeed catching up on sleep & getting over overtiredness. If you can maybe dedicat 2 weeks at home, it might be easier to get him back on track so that naps are not delayed or short, etc....

Keep us posted