NW - wet nappy, overtired, milestone??

[nursekat]

You are not asking too much imho!  We all strive for that, don't we?   

As far as the armchair thing, it depends on who you talk to.  I always did whatever it took to get dd her sleep when she was OT because she is completely incapable of independent sleep if OT.  And I mean completely.  Others can still deal with sleep training while OT, you just adjust your A times to allow for more time to get them to sleep.  Follow your heart, sweetie.  Trust your Mommy instincts to tell you what he needs, then regroup and get him back on track with the independent sleep and such.

It sounds like you are doing a good job getting him caught up, though.  Any thoughts on why he is resisting that first nap?  Does he go down well the rest of the time?  If he goes down well the rest of the time then something is up with that first A and S time.  If he fights it every time then he wants the armchair. 

[DavidsMum]

It is not so much that he is resisting...he is just way OT.
He will sleep but keep jerking awake and then after 20 m he wakes instead of going into deep sleep.

I thought he had caught up on sleep to sleep in today but we had a 4am call out, he put himself back to sleep for 45m and then awake, so in the armchair we went.

I should ass he has trouble getting to sleep in the chair too....lots of jerking and carry on, yawning and eye rubbing...it took an hour this morning for him to fall asleep again so he is still very tired when we start the day.

[nursekat]

Right.  So OT is the culprit, and not having a strong want to be in the armchair, does that make sense?  So in my opinion as long as he's not DEMANDING to go in the armchair, keep it up until he's rested.  Does that make sense?

[DavidsMum]

Things are worse than ever...I don't know what to do???

The armchair seems to have made things worse as he won't sleep unless I am there.

Last night he woke at 215 and was awake until 430 then awake again at 515 then i don't know what happened after then but I got up at 7 amd got him up then too.

I went in and changed his nappy at 230 and then left him to it as it seems that my being there makes him less likely to sleep...unless I hold him and that is a whole new prop to get rid of.

So where do I go from here? I have to go back to work in 9 weeks and really need to get him sorted before then.

DH and I have decided that if we just stick to strict times and leave him in the cot until the nap is in theory meant to be over. But I don't know how that helps him being OT or if that will work???

So
630: awake
0700: BF
0800: weetbix
0930: in cot
1030: out of cot
1045: snack
1200: lunch
1330: in cot
1530: out of cot
1545: snack
1700: dinner
1800: in cot...he'll be tired so I guess 1800 is better than 1830.

What else can I do....he just won't sleep and me going in there just seems to make it worse.

I really need help here.

HELP

[Layla]

OK, I would start fresh & make a mental note not to include ANY props. I know that he is likely to get overtired but it seems like the props are really getting in the way of him learning to self soothe & wether he is overtired now or will be overtired later when you decide to go all the way, he WILL get overtired during the sleep training period. So I think the idea of him doing set nap times is good & will set his little internal clock.

I would use pu/pd or just pd if picking him up seems to bother him more. Don't do the rocking, don't hold him to sleep & don't stay there if he is not crying (even if that means he is not sleeping). If he is playing rather than sleeping for the whole hour, let him be!!! Forget the morning nap & do an earlier afternoon nap & earlier bedtime

Set the nap times & let base it on your schedule

630: awake
0700: BF
0800: weetbix
0930: in cot
1030: out of cot
1045: snack
1200: lunch
1330: in cot
1530: out of cot
1545: snack
1700: dinner
1800: in cot...he'll be tired so I guess 1800 is better than 1830.

If his morning nap is delayed & by say 10.30 he is not asleep, then bump up the pm nap to 11ish & do a super early bedtime (be it 5/5.30pm).

hth
Layla

[DavidsMum]

Hi Layla

We are finally sleeping through the night again....I think.
Somehow it has ended up being 6 - 6 but that is fine with me, we can tweak later when we are recovered from all this mess.
So naps are now 9 and 13.
He is still struggling with naps though, 30mins is not a nap but how do you tell a 10month old that???
I have put stickers on his floorboards so that I can sneak in on the non creaky ones to try w2s once he starts doing 45min naps.

I know you have a lot of w2s experience so was wondering if you can tell me when is the best time to do it, just before or just after 30 mins? And what did you do exactly, just put your hand on her back? I think you mentioned adjusting the blankets but he is in a grobag. Any w2s advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

Em

[Layla]

Yes, try w2s. I used to go in at 30 mins & stroke her cheek or stroke the palm of her hand... just enough to make her stir & that used to do the trick!!!

Wow - I am so happy he's sleeping through. Have you stopped the rocking???

[DavidsMum]

It wasn't even rocking, purely holding him in the armchair, but I guess he really got used to having me there. I knew when 45m was up as without waking his hand would reach up and touch my face and he would happily continue sleeping.

Now it is in the cot, a little back rub and mum is out the door. Tonight he didn't even cry when I left the room

I tried something new today and would like your honest opinion. I don't think it is CIO but let me know what you think.

As my responding to him when he wakes results in him not going back to sleep...as the 430 NW come EW showed us...and the only way to get rid of the EW was to ignore him and he goes back to sleep and the next morning slept through ...well I tried it at his nap today.

He woke at 30 min and did the OT cry he does when he wakes and is not refreshed. Then when I didn't respond he did his yell that he does when no one comes, then he went quiet a bit, yelled and cried a bit, quiet a bit etc and then about 35 min later back to sleep for 45 min. And boy was he a pleasure this afternoon, no grizzly grumpiness.

I don't think it is CIO as he isn't exactly distressed crying, more annoyed and more yelling for attention than crying per say.

The BW books say do PUPD until he goes back to sleep or the nap time is over and in a few days (more I'd say) they will start sleeping the nap themselves. So I am working on this principle, but instead of PUPD I sit on the couch trying not to make noise, eating comfort food and pleading with some higher being that David will go back to sleep.

So what do you think?    

[Layla]

I personally don't think its cio. Sounds like he's doing a mantra cry & putting himself back to sleep. Be careful though cause if he's actually doing a distress "i need you mummy" cry, then don't leave him. Even if he doesn't go back to sleep, he still needs to know that you are there for him. Its more important for him not to feed abandoned than to have him sleep a long time, iykwim.

You're doing great!!!

Keep me posted

 

[DavidsMum]

Update:

Hi Layla, how is the 2-1 going with Jasmine?

Things are slightly improved on this end.
He is still having NW but not that I need to respond to, it just seems that he is awake every 45m from 3am onwards and each time it is harder to get back to sleep and I think he is pretty much awake from 520 onwards but not really calling for me until 545. I am wondering whether I should knock bed time back to 630 again, maybe he just doesn't sleep 12 hours at night?

Naps are up and down, somedays he squeals after 30m then is back to sleep 5m later and lasts another 45m. But if he makes it past the 30m he is up after 45m and will not go back to sleep. Today I am going to try w2s and see how that goes.

Do they have a 10mth GS??? Before I could drag him out until 7am but now he is demanding BF from 6 and I am lucky to drag it out to 630. Also during the day he will start whinging and I have no idea whats up and eventually offer him a banan or something and he'll eat it all, even though he has just had lunch, and then be happy again.

Also when I strted this sleep training he was 9 mo but now he is 10 mo should I be changing nap times at all?

Everyone said "It gets easier", but I had it so good for so long that for me it just keeps getting harder, guess I should be grateful for the start that I had. 

Thanks for your help ....and listening...funny how much better it feels just writing your problems down and pretending the whole world is listening.

[Layla]

Hey there . I am so pleased you posted back!

Naps - he should be able to do 3 hrs now so maybe try stretching the morning nap now to 9:15 (& you might want to try & cut it down to 45mins) Then do pm nap 3.5hrs later & bedtime 3.5hrs later.

Your day would look something like this:

wake up - say b/n 5.30-6am
9:15-10am - morning nap
1:30-3pm - afternoon nap
6.30pm - bedtime

Give that a go for a week to see if it will make a difference to the morning wake hour.

Food - if he's last BF would have been at 6pm, then its understandible that he will be hungry 12hrs later... so try & stretch him to 6:30, I wouldn't do any later than that. Is he eating fairly well for breakfast, lunch & dinner? & also the 2-3 snacks? Could be that his appetite has increased. They are constantly growing (especially in the 1st year) so if he still seems hungry, give him something.

I am listening - always! I am so happy you are still updating 

[nursekat]

I'm still listening, too!    Just MIA for a few days with company and a trip for the holidays...sounds like you two have it all under control! 

[DavidsMum]

I feel like such a failure today.
I don't understand why this is taking so long???
Everything you read makes it sound like 3-5 days and all your problems will be solved, but it has been weeks and I feel like it keeps getting worse.
I have gone from a 630 wake up to a 5am wake up.
I am now considering a 5 -5 day...at this rate I'll be doing a 3-3 day in a week or two and 7pm-7am in a couple more. where do you draw the line???
I don't know what to do .....he will not sleep longer during the day and he just grizzles at me all day long, this is not fun for either of us, I am sure life is not meant to be like this.

[Layla]

Last time you posted he seemed to be settling himself for naps & at night. What has happened in the last few days that makes you think you'll be going back to 5-5?

How long is the pm nap? Have you tried pushing it to a later time?

You've got to remember that you really only started again on the 1st of July (which is when all the props stopped, I think)... so you are doing really well. If he's been able to put himself to sleep from short naps & at nighttime then it may be something else that needs tweaking.

[nursekat]

I second that!  Remember you have done a LOT in this period of time! 

The waking more and more frequently as the night goes on does sound like OT still...especially if he's not napping well, either. 

I know we had a very noticable growth spurt somewhere in the 9-10month range.  There's a group of gals on here that also swear by the book called "the wonder weeks" and babies all go through relatively predictable fussy stages.  Interesting concept, new to me though.  So now I always wonder "hmmm I wonder if this is one of the fussy stages..." 

You can do this, chica.  Give yourself permission to feel frustrated and then let's pick up and try again.