I think we're about to give up...and I need to vent

[smartypants]

I know we've only started this 10 days ago but it really feels like this method is wearing DD out (she is 4 months old). We both dread any sleep time because it involves so much crying. I was very strong in the beginning and was able to handle the crying and "heart sluffs" because I knew she did not understand the changes we were putting in place. Then we saw some great changes...she napped better, she slept longer at night, and I felt like I had some control during the day and could get some things done. But here we are day 10 and I see post after post after post about PU/PD, short naps, not being able to go out, etc...and both DH and I feel so disheartened at how tricky this is. One little change in the day can throw her off. I know the program seems fairly simply but we are constantly missing something - be it her sleep window (even though we are constantly observing for tired signs) or the wind down ritual or even the PU/PD. And even if we catch her in time, she starts to cry and whimper the minute we swaddle her and start the wind down. It's like she knows she's going to be and doesn't want to go. We've tried sticking to the clock (which makes her overtired and difficult to put down for a nap/sleep) and we've tried tweaking the day around her tired cues (which makes her eat more often because she goes to sleep earlier and then needs to eat earlier). We're darned if we do and we're darned if we don't.

I have posted questions in various areas but sometimes I get a response and sometimes I don't. I see how many people there are that are just as confused as I am. Am I doing this right? What should I do differently? I've read the book over and over and highlighted so many pages but DD just doesn't conform to this. I am really sad and frustrated because I want this to work so much. However, she has now been crying for about an hour (DH has been working like a dog doing the shush/pat and PU/PD). And I hear my little baby crying out of sheer exhaustion and frustration.

I am weary, frustrated, uncertain, and most of all, feeling so defeated.

[Aly Mac]

Oh Denise - you poor thing. Big hugs to all of you first 

Unfortunately, it does take time with some and 10 days, even though is long for you guys, is really only a short time for her.  My lo is 9.5months and knows when I go into her room and put the light out that it's bed time and she starts to make her noises.  Not crying, but her i don't want to sleep noise even though I know I should!  Following her cues is better than the clock watching so you are right there.  I know you have probably done this on other posts, but can you post your daily routine so we can see the whole day?  If you put it in this format it will be easier for everyone to see your day and offer some help.

E 7am
A7.30am
S 9 (for 1 hr)

This is just an example of course. 

I will try and keep popping back to see if I can help, but it's morning here at the mo, and may not be able to.

[RachelC]

{{{{{hugs}}}}} Denise.

I have not read any of your other posts, but will take a peek.  I wish I could say it's always easy, but I know that this EASY stuff is hard work.

{{{{hugs}}} We will support you with whatever you need 

[Amandamom]

I know exactly what you mean.  My post is the one called "I feel like a failure".  I have definitely seen the forward progress and then feeling like you're taking two steps back.  Have you read the FAQ sections?  I've found those to be very helpful.  There is also an obsessed with schedules post that I could relate to.  My main thing was that I needed to relax and go with the flow instead of being a clock watcher...our babies are people just like us and they aren't going to do the exact same things everyday.
Something I noticed in your post though... you don't have to feed your daughter when she wakes up from her nap.  EASAE is common and okay.  If she is hungry feed her obviously.  But, for example, my daughter gets up at 7 and then is ready to nap at 8 and usually only sleeps until 8:45 or 9 (although I had progress there today!), but I still don't feed her until 10.
I know this isn't much help, but I wanted you to know that I sympathize.

[vadensmommy]

I completely agree with amandamom.  I think BW is a WONDERFUL resource, but in the beginning I was super obsessed with dd's schedule, and doing everything JUST right.  I had to remember that BW is supposed to give us tools to enjoy our babies, and give us time to ourselves to help be better mothers and wives, and individuals in general.  So, breathe, know that you are NOT a failure, you are obviously a very caring mother who wants the absolute best for her daughter - otherwise you wouldn't be here chatting with us!  And too I agree - go ahead and post your schedule, and maybe we can all take a look and see where you might be able to tweak a few things to make this going to sleep part of the routine a bit easier.  I'll also say, if you have done a lot of accidental parenting, it can be hard to break the old habits.  Post everything for us - what you've been doing in the past to get her to sleep, what your EASY is, your wind down, and maybe we can help!  Good luck, and take a break now and then if you need to.  You can't help your daughter if you are spent yourself. 

[smartypants]

Thank you, thank you, thank you! I really appreciate this. We have been keeping a detailed log so I went to grab it in order to reply to your queries.

OK...a "normal" day looks like this:

E 7
A 7:30
S 8:40am (but usually yawns or so around 8:20am). My log says we lay in bed anywhere between 8-8:30am

E 11am
A 11:30am
S 12:20/12:45

E 3pm
A 3:30pm
S 4:45/5/5:30 (catnap)

A 5:30/5:45/6pm (bath, massage, quiet play)
E 7pm
S 8pm

She typically gets up on her own somwhere between 10-11pm (I tried the DF too) and then at least 2-3 more times. She has gotten better however at going back to sleep with a little shushing or 5 mins of PU/PD. We are now at the point where she does not eat more than once at night.

HOWEVER, we went from doing PU/PD for only 10-15 mins on Day 2 to not at all by Day 3, 4, 5 and then back up to 20-30 mins or more (for naps only). She will usually nap for 1.5-2 hours, until now. We always have at least 20-45 mins of PU/PD for bed time. Sometimes longer. And we can't tell the difference between a mantra cry and her own cry. I don't like to let her get too ed off because that cry sounds pretty strong. I'm afraid we rush in too soon when she is only mantra crying but we can't be sure because it sounds like a real cry. And she calms down as soon as we enter the room but continues to cry/whine if we don't pick her up.

My main concern is that we're not doing the wind down and PU/PD accurately AND being consistent enough. Sometimes we let her cry for a bit and get worked up and sometimes we go in as soon as the mantra cry escalates. I do the Four S ritual....and she really needs to be swaddled. I even experimented with leaving one arm out for her to chew on but that was a bit much for her. I think once we put her down, she starts to whine because she is lonely and wants to play. We can never get her to the point of drowsiness as she always fights sleep. So even though she is tired, she usually needs help settling. She has only ever fallen asleep on her own (without ANY help) once or twice. For the life of us, we cannot figure out how that happened and how to do it again.

I also think my breasts are confused with this new program as I have this gut feeling she is not getting enough. We give her the occasional bottle of formula or breast milk and she guzzles it like you would not believe. She will take all 8oz and sometimes still wants more. There is no way she is getting that from my breasts. Initially, I thought she was going through a growth spurt so I fed her at least once at night and then topped her up with an extra couple of ounces after each feed. But that seems to have died off and she will go back down at night without a fight. As for my milk supply, I am pumping more often to stimulate the milk production but the lack of night feeds has reduced it.

As I re-read this, my days sound pretty good and I fear I am at risk of looking like I have unrealistic expectations. Argh. But you see, there are so many variables here and unanswered questions that I don't even know where to start. I think we screwed up by having a new sitter yesterday and also I purposefully kept her up this morning which made her overtired and then very difficult to put to sleep. And then she only slept for 30 mins. This affected her day so much that DH decided to feed her at 5pm and she finally fell asleep at 6:30pm. Poor thing was so tired because her mummy felt like experimenting!

Is it OK if I feed her at 10 or 10:30am if she goes down for a morning nap earlier? Would that not make it a 3 or 3.5 hour EASY then? How closely should I follow the clock, if at all?

[HeatherC]

I just wanted to say that you don't *have* to be at 4 hr feeding intervals.  When my ds was about 3 mos old, he was doing the 45 min nap thing, so we decided to just go with the flow and see what happened.  We put him down when he showed us tired sign (lucky for us they are pretty clear) and fed him only when he seemed to be looking for it.  Therefore, we had feeding intervals of 3, 3.25, 3.5, or 4 hrs.  The feedings don't all have to fall at the same amount of time throughout the day.  You may notice that she's hungrier at night, and might want her last feeds closer together.  Also, a pp poster said what I wanted to  , that you don't have to feed her when she wakes just b/c E comes after S.  But remember to include the total A time from the time she wakes from her previous nap when considering when her next nap might fall.  Not just the A time after eating.  If she's having short naps right now and you aren't able to extend them (which is not uncommon, it's a very hard thing to do), she may even have 2 short naps in between feedings just to keep her from becoming overexhausted.  Also, have you considered bringing bedtime up a little bit closer to 7 pm?  You could do her last feeding between 6:30 and 7, maybe even in her room with the lights dim to keep the stimulation to a minimum and then put her to bed.

I just want to add that if you are feeling overwhelmed and frustrated, you should take some time to get out with your beautiful baby and enjoy each other.  If she misses a nap, it will be okay, you can start fresh when you get home.  This is just my opinion.  I just want you to feel better about everything.  I know it's hard.  Both of my kids were short nappers as babies.  My dd took 30 min naps for the firsth 6 mos.  I wasn't as committed as you to trying to extend them, so we both suffered instead.  I hope things turn around for you soon.  Pop over to the breastfeeding board.  I'm sure things are fine, perhaps you just need to add a feeding back into the day.

[Layla]

Hi there. First of {{{HUGS}}}.

She will usually nap for 1.5-2 hours, until now

What is she doing now? Is she taking 45mins naps? Some babies around this age start with the whole 45-min nap thing... its purely developmental & it will pass. There is a whole thread dedicated to short nappers in the NAPS forum - you're not the only one. If she is only taking 45min naps, all you can do is try to extend them by shh/pat or maybe try w2s. Also if she's had a short nap, she might need the next nap earlier so EASY will be a little "off" but thats ok too. We only got there around 5.5-6 months, when my short napper finally started sleeping longer (1hr )

She doesn't HAVE to be on 4hr EASY. She might not be able to handle the longer A times & being that she is BF, she might not be able to wait that long for her feeds. Start with 3.5hrs (& then move towards 4). Jasmine was only on 4hrly feedings at close to 8 months. Before that she fed every 3 hours. She was also on the smaller side & I was too scared to make her wait that long.

I also think my breasts are confused with this new program as I have this gut feeling she is not getting enough. We give her the occasional bottle of formula or breast milk and she guzzles it like you would not believe. She will take all 8oz and sometimes still wants more. There is no way she is getting that from my breasts.

Just because she is guzzling 8oz from a bottle doesn't necessarily mean that she is hungry. Are you offering her both sides? Does she seem satisfies after a feed? Have you tried giving her a "3rd" or even a "4th" side. This would also help your supply. How long is she feeding at each breast?

As I re-read this, my days sound pretty good and I fear I am at risk of looking like I have unrealistic expectations. Argh. But you see, there are so many variables here and unanswered questions that I don't even know where to start.

You should (& your dh) give yourself a BIG pat on the back. At 4 months I only just started sleep training Jasmine & her best at night was 3hrs (I was feeding her every 3 hrs). Before that, she was waking up every 1-2hrs & I was feeding her to sleep. She had rubbish naps & all were thanks to AP (she was rocked, carried around, whatever I could think of really) & she snacked every 2hrs as well.

I just want to add that if you are feeling overwhelmed and frustrated, you should take some time to get out with your beautiful baby and enjoy each other.  If she misses a nap, it will be okay, you can start fresh when you get home.  This is just my opinion.  

I want to 2nd that. If you are having a really hard time, rather than standing over a cot with a screaming baby, pick her up & take her for a walk. Give yourself & her a little break. I always gave shh/pat a 20-30min window. If she was not asleep by then, I used to get out of the house & try again later. Also remember that she can sence what you are feeling. If you are trying to settle her but are burning up inside, she won't calm down sooner than she would if you were calm.

Babies tend to throw things in here & there & don't be disheartened. She is still young, still learning & this is still new to her. She might be going through some regression (its only been 10days). Dont give up. It is hard work but you'll get there

hth
Layla

[Layla]

Stacy you posted same time as me.... YES to everything Stacy wrote. She's the best!!!

[RachelC]

I just wanted to chime in from a breastfeeding stand point.

This link may help relieve concerns about supply
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=65905.0

Also, many bf babies never make it to a 4 hour EASY, but rather stay a 3 or 3.5 hours.  And sometimes it can be 3 hours in the morning, but 3.5-4 hours in the afternoon.  It's much more important to follow her cues instead of the clock.

Keep in mind that 4 months can be a growth spurt time:
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=66001.0

I will let you know though, your personality sounds exactly like mine.  I obsessed over each word in the BW book (I am almost glad I didn't have the solves all your problems book yet) and thought the book was the be all to end all.  That was with my first, and I didn't know about this site yet.  With my second I was a bit more ready to go with the flow, although I still couldn't let go of everything.  What I am getting at is, I know how you feel.... and it's hard to change your thinking, trust me, I know!  {{{{hugs}}}} We can get you through this 

[smartypants]

Holy Dinah, you ladies are incredible! I feel like I have my own cheerleading squad. Ok...here's an update....

Last night after DH spent an hour putting her to bed (asleep by 6:30pm), she slept until 12:30am. I fed her and put her down without any hassles by about 1am. She got up two more timess after that (about an hour and a bit between each time). The first time, DH did it in like 5 mins...the second I had to do PU/PD for about 30-40 mins. I actually got to the point where I was so sleep deprived that I was just going to let her cry for a bit to get her riled up but then she just quieted down all on her own and fell asleep. Again, how the heck that happened, I have no idea.

Anyways, this morning, we woke her up at 7am to feed...I brought her into bed (oooh, I miss that!) and she ate while I had a wee snooze. A full feed for 30 mins (both boobies). She looked tired just after her feed but I thought it was a bit soon to put her down so at around 8:10am (yes, I did look at the clock when she did that), she yawned and I thought, "That's it Miss Lucy, you're going to bed and we're going to fight about this if we have to". So I swaddled her and we walked around her room for a bit (which is very dark thanks to some new black out roller shades) and I spoke very softly to her. Then I gently laid her down in the crib and stayed with her for a few mins with my hand on her and continued to murmur to her. I left the room and listened to her babble for about 30 mins before falling asleep. It has now been an hour and so far so good.

You're all absolutely bang on with your advice...I am way too much of a keener and take things so literally. I just need to chill out with what the book says (I can practically quote certain pages). I am just going to let her play for a bit after getting up from a nap and then feed her when she seems hungry (regardless of what the clock says). I also really liked the idea of giving the PU/PD a 20-30 min time limit because there is only so much either of us can take and even if I did get her down for a nap, I would just have to go and wake her up in time for her next feed which would make her even crankier.

I will start the wind down BEFORE I see tired signs...likely a few mins before she normally shows them so that I am not way off. God forbid should I try to put her down when she's not ready because she'll let me hear about it.

Stacy...our day sort of looks like how you described...she can usually withstand about 1h15 to 1h30 mins before she begins to disintegrate.

I just wanted to let you know how much I appreciate your warmth and support. I am feeling much more encouraged (also partly due to DD's cooperation this morning). I guess I am now just starting to see how flexible this program can be.

Denise

[HeatherC]

I will let you know though, your personality sounds exactly like mine.  I obsessed over each word in the BW book (I am almost glad I didn't have the solves all your problems book yet) and thought the book was the be all to end all.  That was with my first, and I didn't know about this site yet.  With my second I was a bit more ready to go with the flow, although I still couldn't let go of everything.  What I am getting at is, I know how you feel.... and it's hard to change your thinking, trust me, I know!  {{{{hugs}}}} We can get you through this  [/color]

Me, too  !

[RachelC]

Must be the "c" thing at the end of our names 

Denise, glad you had a good morning.  I know it's tempting to give dh a break in the middle of the night, but you may find it's easier for him to pu/pd since he doesn't have the milk 

[Aly Mac]

Glad you had a good night and start to your day.  My lo never did the 4hr easy thing until much later, so I always did the EASAE instead (there is a Y in there somewhere).

[smartypants]

Well.....I was able to successfully put LO down for all three naps today without ANY incidence. She just chattered and babbled to herself for about 30 mins before falling asleep independently. Until....bedtime at 6:45pm. DH had to do PU/PD for 15 mins before she conked out. Poor guy has been unlucky lately.

So my question is...do you think by letting her have a third nap for 1.5 hours had any affect on this? She got up from her second nap 5:15pm and we gave her a bath and massage then fed by 6:10-ish. Then we put her in the bumbo while we scarfed down dinner. She was getting more quiet and subdued and not as smiley(tired signs) by about 6:30pm or so. So I decided to start the wind down and put her in her crib by 6:45pm. She cooed and squawked until about 7pm and then all heck broke loose.

I am thinking she was overtired and we missed the boat about 15 mins. Every other time I have successfully put her to bed, it has been right about 1h15 mins from her last wake up, whereas, this time was 1h30 mins.  I can't believe 15 mins makes such a difference! However, I think this is the first time her afternoon catnap has been so long. She needed the sleep and we figured we would let her wake up on her own for a change.

Does anyone else have the same issue?