8mth old doing 3hr sleep cycles during the night

[annb]

Hi, Seems a great deal of people have the same thing happening with their 8mth old!! Anyway this is my story
DS is b/f and sleeps in his cot in our room as he would have to sleep with my other DS 2.5yr old if he wasnt in with us and as the elder one sleeps all night I dont want to disturb his sleep until the baby can sleep through!!
8mth old is a really good, non whingy, placid, happy baby....but...during the night just doesnt want to play the game!
Im very strick on routine so our daily routine is

Between 7 and 8 am he wakes up, Im now just going straight into solids as normally I would have b/f him around 5 or 6am, however he is often not interested in solids
If he gest up at 7 he will have a 45min nap around 9ish, but if he sleeps in till 8 he wont go down for a nap
B/f at 11am, not a full feed just one side normally for around 5mins
Solids at 12
Sleep at 12.30 - usually for at least 2.5hours
B/f at 3pm
Solisd at 5pm
Bath at 6pm
B/f at 6.30pm
Bed at 7pm
He goes down for all his naps easily and in his cot, and bedtime he goes straight to sleep

Now....he often wakes around 9.30, we turn him over onto his tummy and he goes straight back to sleep
He usually wakes again around 10.;30pm, I think its coz we are going to bed then and no doubt we slightly disturb him, so often I feed him and he will go pretty much straight back to sleep, put him in his cot
From midnight onwards he can wake up at 1am, 3am, 4am, soemtimes just once, sometimes twice.....in my blur of sleep I get him out of the cot, bring him into bed with me, latch him on and fall back asleep!!  I might put him back in the cot when I stir a bit, often he will wake up and it starts the cycle of bringing him back to my bed! I know Ive created a bad habit by doing this but I figure that he resettles pretty easily after a few mins on the boob and that beats standing over his cot for half an hour whilst he messes around. I am concerned however that the longer this goes on the less chance I have of him sleepng through and therefore the less chance of movig him out of our room!
He seems to sleep better on his tummy but also it means when he wakes up he gets up on all fours and wriggles around the cot thus waking himself up even more
I would be happy if he took a dummy as I think he is just using me as a dummy! but he wont have one, wont take a bottle either
I just need some direction! I just want to sleep through a whole night

[momofclaire]

Annb,
I think a few things are going on here.  First I think he is probably overtired.  At his age he needs about 3 hours of daytime sleep, and although he is getting that it isn't spaced out enough to keep him rested. 
I also think he has a feed/sleep association, which you already know.

It sounds as though his waking is due to overtiredness and perhaps milestones.  The fact that he needs turned over means that he gets in a spot he can't get out of.  The best thing for that is to give him TONS of time on the floor to practice his rolling skills.

As for your routine.  I would suggest that you get on an EASY routine. For instance, something like this.
E-7:00 wake and eat
A- until 9:00 and then being windown
S- 9:30-11:00
E-11:00 wake and eat
A- until 1:30 then begin windown
S- 2:00-4
E- 4:00 wake and eat
A-until 6:30 then begin windown which can include another feed
S- 7:00 off to dreamland...hopefully

Making your routine follow this pattern will help space his naps and remove the feeding before sleeps. 
To not feed overnight and teach him to self soothe you are going to have to not feed.  This may require pu/pd as you have become a prop and because he is used to that it you will have to teach him another way. 

Post back with your thoughts. We will try to help you through this as best as we can.
Myia

[annb]

thanks for that
i agree he probably does need a morning nap, i guess the tricky thing is we are always out at an activity with the 2yr old so they normally start at 9.30 so getting the baby to have a decent sleep in his pram whilst out at some toddler thing is eeasier said than done!!! but the days we are home i will endeavour to put him for a nap
i do like to get them both down for a nap between 1 and 3 so if well coordinated i can put my feet up for half an hour myself...so any ideas on how i can adjust that afternoon nap for the baby so he is sleeping more 12.30 to 3 rather than 2 - 4? that would mean also if i got him up a bit earlier we are able to get out the house in the afternoon as well....4pm is just too late to go out anywhere

[momofclaire]

I can't even imagine what it is like with two.  I know Claire would NEVER sleep in the stroller so we always had to be home for naps.    
If you got the baby up at 6 your day could look like this.

6:00 wake and eat
8:30 nap 1.5-2 hours
1:00 nap 1.5-2 hours
start windown at 5:30 and in bed by 6:00

The thing with getting him up earlier is that he will need to go to bed earlier.  If you are ok getting him in bed by 6 then great.  You may even have a bit of time to spend with the toddler before bedtime. 

I should caution you that many babies have internal clocks which causes them to wake at the same time regarless.  If you intend on attempting to get him up early I would also put him to bed a little earlier the night before.

Layla?  Maybe you could weigh in here as you have done a fab job with two little ones? 

[annb]

hmmm...i should add that getting up at 6am is a big NO NO!!! ha ha, me and the other half complain about getting up at 7am!
maybe i will just have to jiggle the routine so he gets a morning and afternoon nap that kind of fits in with our schedule for the other one....DS#1 is a pretty good sleeper as I really trained him from about 3mths old but as he was in his own room and took a dream feed it was a whole lot easier
DS#2 just woke up 2.5hrs after going down at 7pm, I tried the pu/pd but it didnt work so Ive laid him on his tummy, hes gone straigh back to sleep!  I shall go and turn him over onto his back in a minute or so, am going to keep trying the pu/pd though and as its the wekekend I will get DH to try and resettle him during the night before sucumbbing and feeding him

[momofclaire]

I didn't figure anyone would willingly get up earlier.    I wouldn't either.  Too bad we can't have the best of both worlds.  I would do my best to make sure he gets two naps because if he is well rested he will sleep better and you won't be doing as much pu/pd.

Keep me posted.
Myia