Please help, short naps, won't nap alone :(

[Elvisking]

Hi,

LO is 16 weeks. He has had a tough time with silent reflux and a milk allergy, this is now sorted & we are trying to get some sort of structure into our day time.
      Our problem is that he will not nap independently for longer than 20 mins unless he is on someone. If we go for a walk, or go in the car he will sleep for two hours- sometimes more!!! He goes down at 9/10pm & goes to sleep independently until 7:30/8 am no bother!!!!!
       I have tried the Moses basket & his cot. I have sat & tried to stop the 20 minute jolt- which we do successfully. I wait another 10 mins then leave the room. Guaranteed as soon as I leave the room..... He's awake!!!!!!! We aren't really on an Easy plan yet, but we roughly follow the 2 hour awake time.  so , I guess I'm asking do I establish an easy day or naps first??
       I have a very noisy 3 year old, which makes it hard for me to do anything with LO, as she needs to be looked after too. I have 3 days without toddler next week to try & sort this sleep out.

Do any have any suggestions as to what I do? It is driving me mad as he is clearly tired & I cannot do anything- it's as if he senses me leaving the room:(

 By the way- I know I am lucky that he sleeps all night!! Any help would really be useful!
Thank you xxx

[Elvisking]

Bump! Please help!!

[newkidontheblock]

Could you post your daily routine. It's alright if it's a bit here and there. Just need to get an idea of how your day goes. Also, how do you spend the A time? If you read through the FAQs, there is a lovely post about short naps and overstimulation and also one explaining how sleep cycles work- mainly, how babies cycle through light and deep sleep virtually every ten minutes. I can't post them right now as I'm on my phone but you could have a look

[Elvisking]

Thank you for replying

Basically this has been today so far

Awake at 7:45am
E-8:30
A- in bouncer whilst I made breakfast, then nappy change & play on nanna's knee.
S-9:30- on me, took him 10 mins to go over, then into cot.
A- 10:10- on my knee, then in bouncer & on nanna's knee.
E-11:00
A- played on floor
S-12-1:45 in Moses basket ( woke a couple of times- shhh'd to sleep)
E- 2pm
A- on floor baby gym/tummy time. & in baby seat
S-3:40 asleep on my knee & moved to Moses basket

He is still asleep now. He will feed again around 5pm & then 8pm & sleep through until the morning.

I told you- I am all over the place this is the same every day give or take 30/40 mins. I would just like him to sleep upstairs so that he gets peace. Today has been a VERY good day for sleep- usually it's 20-40 mins here & there. I will post again in 2/3 days, I'll keep note of the next few days.
What do you think so far?
Thank you!!

[newkidontheblock]

A bit confused about the A time you are doing. 1.45 first nap but then 2 hours after a 30 min nap? If that's the case, and you are getting a long pm nap which is easy to resettle, then maybe an increase in A times is in order. Could you do 2 hours for the morning nap too and see if it makes a difference? Just add ten minutes and stick to that time for a few days. Before the nap, keep things low key- walk around, humming, singing etc to prevent over tiredness. It will take a few days to adjust to the new A and then we'll know if it is the right time for him. If the nap lengthens, then you can stick to that A for the pm

Besides that, one thing they would definitely help is a good nap wind down routine. Have you tried the 4 s? What do you follow before a nap?

[Elvisking]

The A time was long in the morning as he didn't nap long enough- as I said- I'm all over the place !!! 😪 so, try & keep him awake for 2 hours every A time & see?
  We go upstairs to a dimly lit bedroom, I put him into his sleeping bag, we sit beside the cot & cuddle, sshhh & put him into his bed?

Thanks for help, even though I did this with my other LO I feel like a complete newbie & completely useless!!!

[newkidontheblock]

Breathe. You are doing your best. Nothing about this is easy. I would say stretching to. 2 hours sounds like a good first step. After a short nap, reduce the next time by 10-15 minutes.

Have you tried holding till drowsy, then putting down and leaving the room? That's what we used to do. Basically with the 4 s routine, you make the room nice and dark, swale/ sleep sack, hold for a while till drowsy- if he cries or protests, then pat/she, otherwise PD once drowsy and give them space to fall asleep on their own. Only if they cry for help, then pat/shh etc

[Elvisking]

Ok, brill, this morning went well, but he's now asleep in the pram after a walk- I'm going to have to wake him to feed. Thanks- will post later xxxx

[Elvisking]

Ok, right, seems to be going ok- A time is lengthened & naps are going well, however I am shhh patting him in my arms & putting in to the cot asleep😁. I know, one step at a time....!
   How do I now go from this to putting him down awake?  Just attempt it & shah pat in the cot??

[newkidontheblock]

Do you have to shh/pat? I used to shush/pat till drowsy and then PD and leave the room. You need to give him space to settle

[Elvisking]

Hey new kid,

Right, update.... He has been doing really well. We've broken the 20 min jolt, and he sometimes needs a ssh/pat at 45 mins, but is generally napping for 1hour 30. We are still having to hold him & soothe him before putting him down- he does cry & get agitated before sleep, if we try & put him down semi awake- he wakes the second he touches the mattress
    I know it's one step at a time, but have you any ideas? Do you think we just persevere & ease off on the shh/pat gradually?

He fell asleep on school run today 10 mins before sleep was due & I managed to rake him out of his sleep suit & car seat & transfer him into sleep bag & cot no problem, so I know he can do it!! He also does it every night!!!!

[newkidontheblock]

So happy for you! Good job! If he is waking the moment you put him down, then maybe you are holding for too long? Have you tried doing your wind down and putting down and leaving the room? Otherwise, reducing the input - so now you are shush/patting...what if that changes to just putting a hand on him and saying a sleepy phrase, then reducing it to sitting by him and saying that phrase..slowly moving away..and then just not doing it at all. Just throwing out ideas here:)

[Elvisking]

I'll sure try them- thanks! Really struggled yesterday & today with the 45 min wake up I have tried shh/pat but it's not working. I have lifted him & shh/pat - and he will go back. Is there any other way with the dreaded 45min 😢😢😢😢😢

[newkidontheblock]

You could try these ---> How do I address habitual wakings? (wake-to-sleep and other methods)

[Elvisking]

Brill, thank you, you are so good, really appreciate it. I suppose I'm expecting things to work instantly!!! Have to slooooow down!!!!! Xx

[newkidontheblock]

Yes, definitely slow down. And give yourself a pat on the back for how far you have already come.

[Elvisking]

He has done really well today, still doing the old 40 min wu, but I'm sure that'll come. Won't it??!! Thanks so so much for your help, I'll keep posting though if you don't mind?! ☺️😀

[newkidontheblock]

It will get better. As they get older, their sleep patterns so mature also. 3-4 months is just a hard time in general. Definitely keep me updated. Why don't you also join on the chatter in the birth clubs. You can talk to other mums going through similar experiences. I'm on my phone so can't post the link but you can find them in the EASY forum

[Elvisking]

Hi, this could be teething or something else but LO is waking 10/15 mins into nap now as well as 45 mins I'll post the last few days easy so you can have a look to see where I'm going wrong. I can get him back over if I lift him & sh/pat- but he won't go over if I sh/pat in the cot!! Now, and even bigger picture is the evening- he will not go over for the night until really really late. He is almost hyper. I know he is massively o/t by the hust won't go!

Here goes....
A 7:00 ( he never takes a bottle first thing)
E 7:30
A 7:50
S 8:45 (shattered)
A 9:50 (short nap)
E 10:00
A 10:20
S 11:00 (early due to short nap)
E 1:00
A 1:20
S 3:00
E 4:30
A 4:55
S 6:00
E 7:30
Bed @ 8pm
DF 10
(That evening was fine!!

A 7:45
E 8:00
A 8:20
S 9:45
E 11:15
A11:30
S 1:15
E3:00
A 3:20
S 5:00
A 5:25
E6:30
Bed at 7:30  still awake at 8:30
Tried 4s's asleep for 10 mins & then hyper. Eventually fell asleep with exhaustion at 11pm!!!!!!!

A 7:30
E 8:00
A 8:20
S 9:45
E 11:30
A 11:50
S 1:15
E 3:00
A 3:20
S 4:50
E 6:20
A 6:40
S 7:30 no way!!!!  Tried again at 8 pm no way. I left him with oh & he text me to say he was hyper very noisy & jumpy. I took him upstairs with a bottle at 8:45 he fell asleep for 10 mins & woke- he then screamed until he eventually conked at 10:17!!!

I'm clearly doing something wrong- A time too short/too long?? He is 18 weeks.

[newkidontheblock]

I can get him back over if I lift him & sh/pat- but he won't go over if I sh/pat in the cot!!

It's the same with my DD. We had has periods where we are able to comfort in the crib though, so always try that first and then pick up if needed.

A 7:00 ( he never takes a bottle first thing)
E 7:30
A 7:50
S 8:45 (shattered)
A 9:50 (short nap)

Why shattered? Was it a bad night? Other than that day, on the others, 2 hours seems to be getting you good naps. You might have to commit to a week of staying with him for the first twenty minutes, then again being in the room at transition time.

S 5:00
A 5:25
E6:30
Bed at 7:30  still awake at 8:30

A 20 minute nap is pretty useless. I find DD is still tired after it and I have trouble at BT. You might need to put down earlier- maybe after an hour. Also it sounds like he got his second wind on that day.

I actually recommend that you stick to a fixed wake up time and bedtime so that your days have more structure. Also aim for 12-12.5 hour days max. On bad nap days, bring bedtime forward and shorten your day more.

I also think that Tracy recommends that the catnap be between 5 & 6 to help them get to bed. On days when it is too early, he is ot again by BT.

Did I answer everything? Hope it helps

[Elvisking]

Hi,
  Hope your are well? We are now in. Desperate need of help!!! We rate really really really struggling with evenings. Daytime is going ok, we occasionally fall asleep during a walk or car trip that messes things up, but generally it's going ok. Our problem is the evening. We put him down at 5 and he always wakes after 45 min. We have tried a 7pm bedtime, 7:30 & an 8pm bedtime- but he always wakes after 30/45 mins & that's him. He is then very difficult to get to bed. I have just spent 40mins consoling him & he's eventually nodded off. He will go all night, but as you can see there is no evening time for us. I ideally would like him down at 7, so that I could put my older LO to bed after him at 7:30.
  I am really struggling with this. As you know he has silent reflux & he is also teething badly at present- so is screaming a lot during the day & he is shattered. I do not know how to stop this 45 min waking, in the day he can get back to sleep after 45 mins, but at this evening sleep- he point blank refuses to go further.
  I am desperate to get this sorted. I am having no evenings and haven't even eaten my dinner the last few evenings!!!! Any ideas whatsoever??!!

I may create a new post to see if anyone has any ideas!!! Thank you 'new kid'

[newkidontheblock]

Oh, hun, that sounds rough. I am sorry that things are still so bad. It sounds to me like he is in a lot of discomfort. Is he on meds for the reflux? Usually wakings soon after bed indicate OT but what you are describing definitely sounds like he is in pain. I will ask some ladies who gave experience in this area to take a look.l, and I will be back later tonight. Hugs!

[newkidontheblock]

Daytime is going ok

So he is napping...alone? What nap lengths are you getting?

We put him down at 5 and he always wakes after 45 min.

Do you mean for a catnap? If so, perfect. You could then aim for BT at 7.30, maybe? My DD did a short afternoon nap and then a 45 minute CN with BT fixed at 7. But that only worked because of the short afternoon nap.

I'm actually a bit confused as to what is going on with his day. Sorry to ask again but could you post your routine again. Just of one day with the NWs. I really feel that it is more than just the routine but it doesn't hurt to take a look

[Elvisking]

Sorry, new kid, I meant we put him down at 7 & he always wakes after 45 mins & won't go down again. Sorry!

General day....
A 7:30
E 8:00
A 8:20
S 9:30 (wakes after 45 & goes back) usually wakes at 11:10
E 11:30
A 11:45
S 1:30
E 3:00
A 3:20
S 5:00
A 5:45
E 7:00
A 7:45
E 9:00 then bed.
He naps in the day in his cot- sometimes have to sh/pat back to sleep after 45 mins, but he usually goes back fine. It's really just the evening I'm struggling with.
What do you think??

[newkidontheblock]

Is he 5 months old now? Or 6? So looking at your day, am I right that you are doing 2 hours first A followed by 2.20 and then again 2? Any reason for the fluctuation? Generally speaking, waking from a nap in 45 minutes(one sleep cycle) means UT but since you manage to resettle him, I would suggest that maybe just a bit more A time would help him transition. What nap length are you getting for the pm nap with 2.20 A?

Around this age, DD also started waking soon after BT and it turned out to be OT and the transition process from 3 to 2 naps

[Elvisking]

Hi, thanks for replying.

He's not quite 5 months yet. No reason for the fluctuation in A times- it's just how it happened. He wakes religiously on 45 mins for every nap, we can usually get him back over. I really need to work on this, as it is a pain!! Do you think to make A time 2 hours 15? Gradually?
   I just feel as if everything is falling apart? I was taken into hospital last fri, I collapsed & as a result, I've been in bed a lot & oh & my parents have been doing the routine!! They have tried their best, but I feel as if I really need to start afresh if I'm honest?
   The last two mornings we've had 5:30am starts too- definitely due to teeth, but still, I think the whole thing is a mess!!!
  My plan is, tomorrow, (providing he sleeps past 5:30) to get him up at 7:30 and start afresh, perhaps with a 2hr 15 A time?
  Thank you for all your help. Xx

[newkidontheblock]

I just feel as if everything is falling apart?  I was taken into hospital last fri, I collapsed & as a result, I've been in bed a lot & oh & my parents have been doing the routine!! They have tried their best, but I feel as if I really need to start afresh if I'm honest?

You collapsed? What happened? So many many many hugs!4 months is a terribly tough time. I am so happy to hear that you have the help and support of your parents. Just please remember that things will get better..and this too shall pass. You need to take care of yourself!

Waking in 45 minutes generally means a push is in order..but not too much. Try 10 minutes first and hold for a few days. You don't want him to get even more OT. How much day sleep do you think he is getting? Good naps will definitely help get over the OT and make BT easier. But I still do think you should see whether he is in discomfort due to his reflux. Even being very OT, so many wakings are ringing alarm bells for me.

I really do hope that you see some improvement. Do let me know if there is any more help I can give you:) Hugs!

[Elvisking]

Well, they think it is hormonal or migraine related. I had a pretty horrific birth with LO & was unwell for a long time after it. I am back at the doc tomorrow.  Today has been a much better for LO despite being up at 5:30 am!! He had a good morning & afternoon nap. We did have to go up after 45 mins- but he went back over. I think you are right about the A time. We will give it a go.
Here is today so far
5:30 awake due to teeth
E 6:00
A 6:20
S 7:30
A 8:10 (nappy)
S 9:30 (due to short nap- he was exhausted)
E 10:30
A 10:45
S 12:30
E 2:30
A 2:45
S 4:50 (later due to visitors)
E 6:15

He is currently up, in great form, we've had no crying today! I honestly think the crying is due to teeth pain not reflux, I aim to have him upstairs for 8:20, bedtime routine, small bottle & bed.

I think we're on the right track, I need to stay with him during naps to stop the 45 min wake & adjust A time, do you think we're heading the right way?? !! Xx

[newkidontheblock]

Yes, definitely. Be consistent in your routine & approach for at least 5 to 7 days and then we can re-evaluate if needed. Good luck!

[Elvisking]

Brilliant. Thank you so much, will be in touch xxx