longer wake time...what happens to naps?

[cazao]

hi there. i`ve been struggling the last few days with how to manage naps now dd (8 months) is staying awake longer. she can now stay awake 3 hours before first nap, so if she wakes at 8am, that means she goes down at 11 and sometimes sleeps till 1pm. then it`s not until 3.5 hours that she`s ready for next nap. and putting her down at 4.30pm, even if it`s just for 45 minutes makes bedtime not till 8.30 (it`s normally been around 7.30) and last night she woke after an hour and i`m wondering if it was because she went to bed so late. as it is the last few days i`ve been waking her at 8am so she doesn`t start her day any later....we had a couple of days when i let her sleep in till 8.45am  (i know i know i`m really not complaining i promise!!:lol:) but she tried doing just one long nap and it was a disaster...she woke tons after bedtime becasue she was just so overtired by then.

so...as morning waketime gets longer, do i keep moving that morning nap back, and if so what happens to the afternoon nap and bedtime? or do i keep morning nap at normal time, and maybe it`ll just get shorter?
i`m sure there`s an easy answer, just not sure what it is!! thanks for your help...

[Mum to Ella Rose]

Haaaaa....Cazao it's only me... I just went to post pretty much the exact same question when I saw your post!  :lol:

As I write dh is still trying to get dd down to sleep for her afternoon nap after 40 minutes. The problem is she only had 3 hours of awake time and she needs at least 3.5 as well. But then there's not enough wake time in the evenings... I too am at a loss as she is skipping her afternoon nap altogether some days and it's not good...

I would also love some advice on this! The wheels are comin' off fast!  :?

Sharon

[sa]

i think .. may be you should be working towards a 9 month old routine.

9 months old:
Night: 11 hours;
Day: 3 hours, 2 naps of 1.5 hours each;
Total: 14 hours

if she sleeps at 8pm, she should wake at 7am to start her day (11 hours). or if she sleeps at 9pm, she will wake at 8am.

so i think your daytime sleeps are ok. bedtime will be later, or if you want wake her up earlier to start the day?

HTH

[lil'monkey]

Cazao, Sharon - we are on the 9 mos routine but I found that you are right, there isn't enough daytime to fit in two naps of 1.5 hr.  As dd is already sleeping only 10.5-11 hrs at night.  I think that is why she sometimes only take a 45min on some days.   I wonder if we have to sacrifice one long nap for a short one or shorter night time sleep.  Any suggestions from experienced moms?

[Mum to Ella Rose]

Dd has been consistently sleeping 11 1/2 hours over night no matter the bedtime and barring teeth, etc. will sleep about an hour and 15 for her naps. If I understand correctly, the 9 month routine will allow for a longer awake time between naps by dropping some time overnight...??

We don't seem to have too much trouble getting her to sleep for the first nap after 2.5 hours but we need the longer awake time between the 1st and 2nd naps. (My this gets confusing!  :lol: ) We also need the longer awake time between 2nd nap and bed. So. A day could look something like this?...

7 wake
9:30 nap until 11
2:30 nap until 4
8 bedtime

Leaving 2.5 hours 1st awake, 3.5 for the second and 4 for the third....fitting in milk and solids wherever works best.

Is that about right? I'm trying to not be rigid but something is definitely not working as it is! 

Sharon

[lil'monkey]

Well yesterday, I tried 3.5 hrs, 3.5 hrs and 3.5 hrs of awake time between sleeps and it seems to worked very well.  She had two 1.5 hrs naps and 10.5 hrs of night time sleep.  This morning however, she wanted to nap after 3hrs so we'll see if she will have a 1.5 hr nap.  How are you ladies doing?  i thought I read a thread where a mom had her lo have one long nap and a catnap so that she still has that long nighttime sleep.  Hmmm...

[cazao]

oh dear. this is nuts. last night she didn`t go to bed until 9.40pm!!! she just wasn`t tired before. she slept like a dream but, really, 9.40!!!

i woke her at 8 am. first nap was 11 - 1.15pm. then second nap wasn`t until 5.30..she was dropping then and couldn`t have gone any longer, but i`d tried putting her down an hour earlier and she just played. she only did 40 minutes, but just wasn`t tired until late.

it feels wierd to wake her from naps or in the morning now she`s this age..is that what i should do sa? or reducing nighttime sleep?...i guess if she goes to bed super late her nighttime sleep is reduced, but i`m not sure if i want her up all evening... :roll: is she trying to get herself to one nap? do babies have only one nap at this age???

aggghhhh!!!

sorry to see you guys are in the same boat...ella rose is again georgia`s twin nightmare!!

[Mum to Ella Rose]

NOT good here either!  Ella went down at 7:45, woke at 7:15. I think I should have woken her at 6:45 so it was 11 hours because after I just finished saying she'd do a morning nap after 2.5 hours...this morning she's having none of it!! We tried putting her down at 9:35 and that was a mistake. She's still crying! She won't stop rocking on her hands and knees. It's a half hour later and dh is now trying while I take a break.

I think you may have to shorten Georgia's naps. I think you're on the right track Mimi...but it does seem weird to be taking away nighttime sleep. Though I guess the key is the amount of awake time during the day? The only problem with us with one long nap and one catnap is dd won't nap for more than 1.5hrs... How are you doing it Mimi? Did you go by the clock?

Oh I'd better run, I can hear dd getting worse!  :cry:

[Mum to Ella Rose]

Oh my word!!!!! So we finally just got dd up after trying to get her to sleep for an hour! Now our day is truly a mess. I am at such a loss...

Sharon

[Meg's Mom]

Mum to Ella Rose - I don't know if I can help, but post the schedule you are attempting to work to and maybe we can come up w/ some suggestions.

Cazao, 8mos is a bit young to move to 1 nap.  Can you also post your schedule?

From what I have read on the subject of moving to one nap and what you have posted so far...you are on your way to 1 nap soon.  Sorry  :?

One thing you can both definately do is to wake them after 1hr from the am nap.  I know it feels un-natural but this is the nap they will eventually drop.  So encouraging the pm nap to be the longer one will help with that transition when it comes.  It will also help keep bedtime at a more reasonable hour.  I would cut 15min every few days and hopefully that will help.

They (and you) will get thru this I promise!

[Mum to Ella Rose]

HI Michelle... thanks!! Our schedule has been as follows adjusted for wake time. (anywhere between 6:30 and 7:30)

7 wake

7:30 bottle 8oz

8 solids

9:30 nap for an hour and a half or an hour and 15

12-ish lunch

2 nap for an hour and a half or an hour and 15

3:30 bottle 8oz. though the past bit she's wanted it before the nap but the last few days still won't go down after

5:30 solids

7 bath

7:15 bottle 8oz

7:30 bed

Today after the hour of trying with the morning nap... we put her down again right after lunch. She slept for 40 minutes and that was IT. She was grumbly and more work than usual but didn't go to sleep again until 7:15 when she conked out after the bath and bottle. We tried again in the afternoon to get her to nap but she only played quietly in her crib with us in the room after trying again with no success. (oh and she was up at 7:15 this morning after an 11 1/2 hour sleep) She is FIGHTING her naps soooo badly but is sleeping through the night.

Any help is MOST appreciated! Thank you!

Sharon

[lil'monkey]

We had two 1.5 hr naps with the awake time of 3hrs, 3.5hrs and 4hrs between sleeps.  I don't want move back her bedtime further than 7:30 pm as I would like her to sleep around 11 hrs at night (she wakes 6-6:30 am).  I'm going to try to keep these awake times for the next few days and see.

[zayandme]

Hey! Just wanted to encourage you all to stick with this for a few more days. Even with a very young baby, adjustments take a few days. With this age baby I'd give this a week or so. Its tough work but dont forget to read their signals and guide them to some semblance of a nine month schedule. I bet it will all start to iron itself out in a few days.

Btw- did you take a couple days to write everything down, making sure to observe?

Hope it all works out! Keep us all posted, please!
Sarah

[Meg's Mom]

Sharon – Mum to Ella Rose, thanks for posting your schedule.

I am interested to hear how today went?  This nap refusal can only be developmental - is she on the verge of crawling, standing, walking?  Hang in there, we will help you through it.

I have read that at this age they need set times, we did that at 8-9mos and it helped w/ our LO.  So from reading all your posts some ideas (you may already be doing this):

1.   I would suggest you set new nap times and stick to it – if she misses the nap then hold her over until next nap time.  This should help set her body rhythms
2.   keep last 15-30min of A time very low key (like: reading in room, walk if she won't go to sleep in stroller!)
3.   make sure she is going into her bed, awake. If you are winding her down too long, she is probably going through the stages of falling asleep in your arms, instead of in her bed. When you lie her down, she will probably flop about, fuss.. etc. This is okay.
4.   make sure her room is as dark as possible
5.   make her day start no later than 7 am
6.   the schedule you posted should will work (once we get her back on track).  But shorten the am nap to 1hr.
So:
7 wake
10.00 nap till 11 (3hrs A)
2.30 nap till 4 (3.5hrs A)
8 bed (4hrs A)

gives 11hr night sleep as they will rob one for the other.

I hope this helps, I have also sent an email to the board to see if they have any ideas.

[Mum to Ella Rose]

Thank you again Michelle! I definitely think it's developmental. She has pulled to standing once, has figured out how to rock on her hands and knees(has previously only scooted backwards) can go to her tummy from sitting by folding her legs (is working on doing it the other way 'round! :lol: ) has cut one top tooth and the other is right behind it. whew. We tried basically what you suggested, today. After being in asleep by 7:15 last night (due to no sleep yesterday) here's what our day has been so far.

6:30 we woke her up

10 (on the nose) fell asleep after 15 min. mantra cry

11 woke by herself though we were going to wake her here if not.

2:30 napped until 3:45

Now she is at Granny's and we were going to put her down at 7:30 tonight and wake her again at 6:30 though she does seem to really be a "four hour girl" in the evenings so maybe we'll try 8 and wake at 7. Though that wouldn't give her the 3.5 hrs in the a.m.... oh well maybe I am over thinking at this point. We'll see if she'll go down after 3.5 tonight. I'll keep you posted and THANKYOU so very much for the help! It already is better! (of course sometimes it makes me think of one's car making horrible clunking noises until you get it to the mechanic's where it runs like a charm!  :lol: )

Mimi thank you too for your help! 

Cazao, how goes it at your place???

Sharon

[Meg's Mom]

Oh, thank goodness - we are on the right track!

Happy to help 

[Mum to Ella Rose]

Seriously Michelle, the help is so appreciated! I honestly don't know what I'd do without this place!    Thank you.

I'll keep you posted.

Sharon

[cazao]

hi guys. sorry i didn`t realise anyone else had replied and then i checked and there`s all this stuff. THANK YOU everybody!!.

Michelle, if you can throw some light on our schedule, which has been all over the place the last few days that would be great. Yesterday was...

8am wake and bf
9am solids
11 - 1 nap
1bf
2.30 solids
4.30 - 5.30 nap
5.30 bf
7solids
9.30 bed.

Today was 8am wake
11-12 nap
wouldn`t go down for 2nd nap until 4.20, and only did then because i bf her to sleep...she was way overtired but hadn`t given any tired signals or fallen asleep like she normally does out strolling for the afternoon nap. i woke her after an hour.
9pm bed.

for the last little while she was doing a long (2hour) nap and then a 45minuter in the afternoon (she`s never done a long afternoon nap), with bedtimes 7/7.30 but that`s all gone to pot the last couple of weeks. she has got a couple of teeth probably on the way, and may be on the edge of some developmental stuff...she`s probably near crawling. don`t know if this makes a difference but she`s also a really big (97th percentile) baby and a big eater. i`m relieved you think she`s too young for one nap, though i can see how she may be pushing already for it.

so... i know things will be messed up for a bit, and i`ll have to just go with the flow, but it would be good to know what kind of pattern to aim for. i`m very very happy with the 8am wake up (please can we keep it  :lol: ) so if that means she`s in bed a bit later that`s ok. i was concerned about the late bedtimes because i thought some sleep expert guy had said that they should be in bed by 8pm because the early part of the evening is when they get the best sleep or something??? anyway... can you give me an idea of a day we should be aiming for and then at least i`ll know what to shoot for if things get chaotic. also, i`m interested in what you say about set times for naps...can you say a bit more about the dis/advantages of that, and how do you keep them awake till the next one if they miss the first?

thanks SO much.

[Mum to Ella Rose]

Hhhhmmmmm..... dd went to sleep at 7:45 last night. Yeah! I thought.... We woke her at 6:45... still so far so good....then she won't sleep until 11! Get her to sleep for an hour then it takes 1/2 hour of pu/pd to get her to sleep for her second nap which was again...4 hours later!!! She slept exactly an hour again. So now it's 5, she's just woken up and if today is any indication she won't be tired again until 9!!! Which throws us right off again!

I guess we just ride it out and keep trying for 3.5 hour awake times...

Sharon

[lil'monkey]

Well, today we had a 45min am nap and a 1.5 hr pm.

Michelle, do you think that I should keep these naps as they are?  I don't want to rob her night time sleep just so I can have 2 1.5 hr naps.  As dd goes to bed 7:30 and wakes 6-6:30 am with no fuss (except for a 4 am talkfest for 15 min and then back to sleep).   :roll:

[Meg's Mom]

Hi Girls!

Well I must say first off I am now in the same boat as you - so I guess I should be following my own advice!!  Except my LO is older so we may actually have to move to 1 nap.

One at a time:
Lil' Monkey - I would stick with where you are just now.  You had one 45min nap but previously had a couple of good nap days, so I would recommend you stay where you are and see how the next 2 days go.  If she continues (3 days in a row) w/ the 45min am nap you may want to test moving the time forward slightly and see if helps, but doesn't effect pm nap or bedtime.


Cazao – I think the same advice as I gave to Sharon – Mum to Ella Rose applies to you also.  So shoot for:

8am wake up (never heard such a thing, if it works for you don’t see any reason why not)
11am – 1hr (3hr A)
3.30 – no later then 5pm (3.5hr A)
9 bed – (4hrs A)

For the set nap times – I have read (Mindell, sleep consult for babycenter and author) that they should have set nap times at this age to help set their internal clock.  She doesn’t say much more but I found it helped us as they can really hide those sleep signs (as you all have witnessed).  When I first moved to set times, we would go to her room and I would think…she is not tired, she’ll never sleep.  But she did!  Put her on the changing table and she would start the eye rubbing – when we had none of that 2 mins ago!

Sharon – hang in there, we had a similar day so I can feel for you!  Let’s keep trying before making any more changes.

Everyone-
Now you can also play w/ these, push 1st nap to 3.5 and / or bed 3.5 to find what will work w/ your LO.  I know my LO likes her bedtime so even though she woke from her pm nap at 4.30pm (which she did today) she was fast asleep by 7.30.  Also, I am recommending waking them after 1hr for am nap to protect the pm nap and bedtime.  But if they start crawling, you may find they are more tired and can go back to the 1.5hr am nap and it won’t cause any harm.

Also give them the full hr to fall asleep - if they don’t then keep them up until the next nap time – how?…however you can: water play – outside for a good dose of fresh air (but not the stroller if they will fall asleep) – visiting friends or neighbor – favorite game - etc.  My LO will practice walking forever if I let her.

Lastly, are all of your babes falling asleep independently??

Hang in there and i am with you ... literately  :wink:

[Matthew's Mommy]

Hi there!  Sounds like a few of you have hit a few bumps, which, as Michelle mentioned, are developmental.  The suggestions that Michelle offered are excellent and will help you get back on track. 

I find that sometimes Brendan will have a short morning nap, but his afternoon nap is long (1.5 hours)  As long as they're getting a good afternoon nap in, I wouldn't worry.  Sometimes, as they become older infants, their morning nap will shorten a bit and their afternoon nap will stay the same. This is fine.. but I wouldn't go towards one nap just yet.  If they're past 11 months, then I would start looking at the one nap (haha Michelle!).

Also, sometimes older infants will throw in few 45 min. naps and then return back to longer naps. Usually this is developmental.

[Meg's Mom]

Cute Jane!  :roll:

[matt&chris mom]

Can I join this discussion? I need some suggestions.

Chris who will be 11 months in 4 days has had one nap per day for the last 5 days. He's fallen asleep at the same time for the last 3 days although I have had to physically hold him down while rocking because he wants to crawl away and play. He is taking about 45 minutes to fall asleep. I have previously been breastfeeding to sleep, but he is fighting this too. He isn't showing any sleepy signs. His nap times have gone from 1 hour and 15 minutes (5 days ago) to 2 hours and 45 minutes (today). I know I need to work towards laying him down awake but since we have 10 months of feeding to sleep I am trying to take it slow. I do try to breastfeed as part of the wind down but he only feeds for a minute or two. When he tries to crawl off my lap I just hold him and rock him. When he tries to keep crawling away I show him the crib and sometimes I put him in there for a few minutes and when he wants out I start rocking again and signing if he's crying. Once his eyes start drooping I slow down with the rocking and I just hold him until I know he will lay down without trying to get up. He will open his eyes and I will just kind of rock his butt a little until he closes his eyes again.

Is he definitely leaning towards one nap? He was previously taking two 45 minute naps up to an hour maximum. Every now and then he had a 2 hour nap. He's also teething and waking a lot at night.

He usually wakes anywhere between 6:30 and 7:30 AM. Any suggestions?

Minerva

[Mum to Ella Rose]

Thanks everybody... I think I will definitely play with the longer awake time in the am vs. pm as I just put dd down (8:15) and she pretty much went straight to sleep even though she was only up at 5. I know that's almost 3.5 hrs. but I thought it would be worse as she usually does 4. (oops I hear her..I jinxed it!  :lol: ) I think maybe 3.5 x3 like Mimi does would be best for us. It's just so hard to get her to sleep these past few days before 4 hrs. Though dh and I were just talking about how she has so few sleepy signs anymore! Just starts to look kind of "sullen." Like she just gets a slight scowl. So maybe I am just missing the signs or maybe she is truly fighting the nap due to everything going on. Either way time will tell.

And yes we are following the advice you previously gave and dd always goes down awake. (okay okay I held her once for a few minutes too long as it's the only time she actually snuggles!  :lol: ) No but seriously, we do put her down awake and she has been an independant sleeper for the most part. We've never fed her to sleep, rocked, jiggled, etc. In fact it took us awhile to realize half the time she just wanted us to get out of her face and give her some peace and quiet!  :lol:

I honestly don't believe dd will nap after 3hrs in the am but I sure we can figure it out and maybe even just going to a one hour nap in the am after a few days will help. If she only sleeps one hour in the aft. too we could keep our 11 1/2 hours overnight! (Glory be! heh heh)

Michelle so sorry about the irony of you now experiencing the same thing!!! And it really could mean one nap!! blargh....

Matthew's Mommy... welcome back and thanks for your input! It's most appreciated.

Sharon

[cazao]

thanks guys. i`ll try your suggestions michelle and see how that goes. i appreciate it... :lol:

[Matthew's Mommy]

Matt&Chris Mom-- Sounds like your little one is on the way to one nap.  The taking 45 min. to fall asleep is normal.  Good work at decreasing the feeding to sleep!  Sounds like everything is working well for you!

[MorganLeigh]

Just have to keep reminding myself that she needs more awake time! Morgan is 9 months btw. Im just so set from when it was every2 hours and she fell asleep so easily. I think her sleepy cues are changing which is making it more difficult. I guess I take the new "whine" and associate it with tired and I end up trying to put her to sleep for an hour to realize she isnt even tired yet. So I need to be trained it seems ha! She usually wake at 6:45 ( house is tiny and thats when DH gets up ) My biggest issue is getting her to sleep at 7:30 bc thats when DH gets home, she wants to wait and she knows he will be home soon, so she fights it. Im gonna have to start making him wait outside for a week I think. Because she hears him come home and stands right up and wants to play with daddy till 8:30 or 9..then getting up at 6:45 cranky. So after typing this I realize my issue is night sleep, guess that will lead to better naps. Ha! I may have fixed my own problem, we will see. Its just that today she woke up at 6 due to a poor nights sleep so I know naps will be a mess. Well I wanted to joint he topic and see how you gals we doing, Ill check back after a few naps!

[cazao]

hey morgan`s mom. we may have a too late bedtime too..dd gets up at 8amish and goes down 9/9.30pmish but i`m just reading `healthy sleep habits, happy child`, and although i refuse to listen to anything that doesn`t support BW-ing ( :lol: ) he does make a big deal of sleep and naps fitting in with baby`s circadian rhythms etc and there are `natural` times during the day for napping (mid morning and early afternoon) and early bedtimes allow babbies to sleep better. i watched dd today and she definitely showed sleepy signs about 10.30am (when strictly speaking i wasn`t going to put her down till 11am) and she`s having a lot more problems going down now we`re on this wierd late schedule. i thought it was due to teething, but now i think it may be the lateness as well. anyway, long story short, i`m going to bite the bullet and attempt the earlier routine suggested by michelle in this thread (waking her at 7am  :cry: ) and aim for a 7pm bedtime. i`m pretty sure that will help. jus re-read one of the BW chapters as well and Tracey refers to babies going to bed too late at this age and that causing problems. so the poor daddies get to miss out  :cry: ....and we get to have our evenings back  :lol: let us know how it goes for you....

[Meg's Mom]

Cazao: I'll be thinking about you when we get up at 7am too (hee, hee)  :wink:

[Mum to Ella Rose]

Well here's what we inched towards and are pretty much on track with for today. Seems to be working better already. (ie: she'll actually go to sleep after 5 minutes of whining/babbling/tossing about)

7 wake

7:30 bottle

8 breakfast

10:30 nap until 11:30

12 lunch

2:30 bottle

3 nap until 4/4:15 (wakes on her own)

5:30 supper

7 bath and bottle

7:30 bed

She did this yesterday but all a bit earlier and we managed to get her to bed at 7:30 last night where she slept through until 7 when I woke her. It's the 3.5hrs awake 3x/day like Mimi's doing.

I'll keep you all posted over the next few days...look forward to hearing how it goes for all of you too!

Michelle... are you making the move to one nap?

Sharon

[Meg's Mom]

Hi Sharon

Glad to see she is getting back on track - hopefully you are on your road to recovery. 

No, i decided not to move towards one nap - but instead see if adjusting awake times would at least give her 2-1hr naps.  Yippiee, so far...it has worked.  Yesterday we even a 2hr nap in there - shocked i was!

We have A times between 3.0 - 3.5 depending on her sleep clues AND i am waking her at 7am as i noticed she was sleeping 12hrs at night.

I will stick w/ this until the 45min nap monster comes back and will then have no choice but try again to move to 1 nap.

My gut tells me she is not ready and frankly neither am I.  :roll:

Thanks for checking on us, keep up the good work girlies :wink:

[MorganLeigh]

Sharon! Im so glad you had a goo day, means you getting back on track! YAY! Yesterday for us went pretty well, was hard to get her to stay awake till 7:30 PM bc she woke early yesterday morning and caused everything else to be early but we made it.

[lil'monkey]

Way to go Sharon!  DD's naps are out of wack again but I think it is b/c she is napping at my mom's since Monday and is not used to her putting her down for naps.  However, this morning dd wanted to nap after 3hrs so I let her.  As I try to keep roughly the same bedtime, I will probably have her stay awake for 4hrs tonight.  I've noticed that on days where dd takes a 2hr naps, I have to add an extra 15-20 min to the awake time.  Anyone having to do the same?

[Mum to Ella Rose]

On this new schedule dd seems to only want to nap 1 hour then 1hour and 15. But she's doing 11 1/2 overnight so...I think that's okay. She is happy when waking so that's the main thing. (though she's been hard to get down to sleep again so that's cutting into things a bit...) oops. like right now. gotta run!  :lol:

Sharon

[Matthew's Mommy]

Hi ladies, thought I'd drop in!

Looks like you are doing well.  You will know if everything is on the right track, by following your child's behaviour. If he/she is happy and contented throughout the day, and the nights are good.. then looks like everything is working out.  If not, then observe and then problem solve.

Hope your're having a good weekend!