Author Topic: Which to preserve, a longer nap or a longer night? (Read 4487 times)

anna* · « **on:** March 15, 2014, 22:11:14 pm »

To my surprise it seems like we are in the very beginning of the 1-0... by which I mean, Audrey can no longer manage both an 11-12hr night and a good nap - either the nap or the night is cut short.

It seems that any length of nap (I haven't tried less than an hour) will cause her to be awake until at least 8pm, often much later. She's woken in the morning at 7-7.15. On no nap days she copes admirably, and will do 12-13hrs. We haven't done more than one NND in a row - usually not more than one in a week.

She does drive me a bit nuts in the evenings. It's fine if she's just chatting with her 'guys', but when she calls me back at 8.30pm... or when I think she's been asleep but I hear "Hi Stan! You going bed now?" when he goes in, it's frustrating. I feel like she's not getting 'enough' sleep but she must be, really, she is fine and happy, and she has the opportunity to sleep. She never really seems tired when we put her down, either for nap or bed, unless it's a NND.

On the other hand though I think we need a bit of a break from her! She is pretty full on - which 2.5yo is not - and it's exhausting to keep going like that all day without that rest time. I know we should probably be waking her after 45 mins of nap or so ... but it is so so so hard to break that peace and quiet and deliberately wake her up! I am trying to cap her at 1hr but even so, the bedtime larking about continues.

Lolly · « **Reply #1 on:** March 15, 2014, 22:23:22 pm »

I found that my DD was a lot nicer for a longer night rather than a nap and shorter night. She started the 1-0 around 2 and her nap was gone by 2.5 or she was awake until 10pm. As much as I loved the peace in the day I much preferred not running up and down stairs all evening sorting out the shenannigans

. If I capped the nap and had to wake her she was a horror so it was easier to keep going.

We did find that we couldn't go anywhere in the car around 4pm for a few months or she fell asleep and then bedtime was a nightmare again. She handled OT well and has always been a high A times girl, dropped the cat nap by 4 months and was firmly on 2 naps before 6 months and then cold turkey to 1 nap the day after she turned 1.

Laura

Shiv52 · « **Reply #2 on:** March 15, 2014, 22:30:22 pm »

I'd preserve night for sure. I dropped Rs nap at 2.5 for all the reasons you mention and it just seemed silly to have a 5yo in bed sleeping at 7.15 and a 2yo up to 8.30/9.

Roseii · « **Reply #3 on:** March 15, 2014, 23:02:02 pm »

Same here, as much as the nap (which she took v willingly!) was *lovely*, the normal bedtimes were lovelier!!

ZacsMumme · « **Reply #4 on:** March 15, 2014, 23:43:19 pm »

Quote from: Roseii on March 15, 2014, 23:02:02 pm

Same here, as much as the nap (which she took v willingly!) was *lovely*, the normal bedtimes were lovelier!!

This! Given the nap was always going to go anyway I always wanted restorative longer nights over a short one and longer nap. I love my child free evenings too

anna* · « **Reply #5 on:** March 15, 2014, 23:53:34 pm »

Oh I'd love a child free evening.... But they're a thing of the past as Stan is rarely asleep much before 9

*Becky* · « **Reply #6 on:** March 16, 2014, 07:24:28 am »

Do you think it is def 1-0 Anna. Audrey has always been quite HSN hasn't she? How long has it been going on for?

Mashi · « **Reply #7 on:** March 16, 2014, 07:29:20 am »

Started about the same age here, and my DS was (and still is!) high sleep needs. We started out with no nap days and the early beds just one day on the weekend, then it would be a weekend day plus one week day, etc. And just slowly went to it. BY the time he was 3yo and started kindergarten he was only napping once a week, and that only lasted a couple of months, until he was onto just early bed all the time.

I think that the key is in dropping the nap to encourage the night sleep - this is what will last her whole life, yk? Getting rid of the nap is the long term goal so there is not much point in keeping that nap at the sacrifice of night. I do think though that in this stage, your needs are important too -- there are days when you need to break so she has a nap and times when you need to go out (etc) and so she learns to get by without.

lilisuze · « **Reply #8 on:** March 16, 2014, 08:25:53 am »

With ds, when he needed to drop the nap, we did quiet time with blanket and the tv. He took about 45 minutes rest time with minimal assistance from me (meaning i could pop out to the bin, go for a wee etc) and didn't interfere with sleep at bedtime. Infact, he still has resttime now at the weekend if we are free! Might she go for that?

*Ali* · « **Reply #9 on:** March 16, 2014, 08:41:59 am »

We do a mix of 2hr naps and nnds. It works for us as 3-4 days a week we have play groups and swimming lessons in the afternoons so he misses his nap those days. On the other 3-4 days he can sleep 1-3ish and is still in bed by 7 with Cadan. Colby will sometimes mess around calling me back every 10 mins but actually he will often just go straight to sleep as well. I think because the naps are catch up for the nnds they don't leave him UT. He was always quite LSN. WU in the morning is 7-7.20am but he is often woken by Cadan or he would sleep later I think.

Cadan was always high sleep needs and was doing 13.5hr nights by 2.5yo without a nap. We did 30 min naps in the car or buggy for about 3 months before dropping the nap completely with Cadan but his nights were still only 11.5-12hrs with the 30 min nap so he started getting more sleep when we dropped it.

HenaV · « **Reply #10 on:** March 16, 2014, 16:45:04 pm »

Hey Anna

TBH, I was wondering the same as Becky having read through your thread. R recently started to do the same thing - her shenanigans manifested themselves in taking ages to go to sleep and/or hour long NW between 3-4am and then having to be woken in the morning.

It was suggested to me that i move the nap by 15m (still cap at 1.5h as R borders on HSN) and see what happens. So we now do this:

WU: 6.30-6.45am
nap: 1.45-3.15pm (previously nap was at 1.30)
BT: 7pm (usually asleep by 7.15 if not sooner)

This has been in place for about 3/4days and I know I'm about to jinx myself by saying it, but has worked a treat so may be worth considering. I think R and A are around the same age, so maybe a similar issue?

oh I also found capping R's naps and waking her in the morning was making her a horror, but in hindsight, I don't think that was because of the capping but the fact that she wasn't getting a decent night and then I was waking her in the morning so we didn't end up in mess. I say that because I am still capping and she her normal cheeky self rather than the monster child that took over for a while!!

Hena x

anna* · « **Reply #11 on:** March 16, 2014, 17:34:21 pm »

Thing is, she can't nap later than 3 because of the school run. But even when she naps late, we get the same. So yesterday we were out in the morning, she napped 2.30-3.30, bed at 7.30, didn't sleep til 9

Mashi · « **Reply #12 on:** March 16, 2014, 17:42:03 pm »

Anna I found that with naps at this age, capping the nap and waking DS up only made things worse. If I woke him after an hour, he would be up until 9. If I let him sleep as long as he needed and he slept 2h, he would be asleep by 8pm

Go figure. IMO it is a case of sleep begets sleep, and waking him up wrecks the sleep cycle and interrupts the sleep hormones and knocks things out of whack.

anna* · « **Reply #13 on:** March 16, 2014, 17:50:01 pm »

We've no choice but to cap though, we have the school run.

HenaV · « **Reply #14 on:** March 16, 2014, 18:24:37 pm »

Then maybe you do need to work to loose the nap? Perhaps one day nap and one day NND and see how that pans out? I have no btdt experience but am sure you have, have seen this suggestion made elsewhere x

ZacsMumme · « **Reply #15 on:** March 16, 2014, 18:46:59 pm »

Quote from: HenaV on March 16, 2014, 18:24:37 pm

Then maybe you do need to work to loose the nap? Perhaps one day nap and one day NND and see how that pans out? I have no btdt experience but am sure you have, have seen this suggestion made elsewhere x

We did the 1-0 with NND vs nap days Hun. Only very close to the end did I start extreme capping ie 30 mins early in the day ie 11. Worked well for Z but it's not for everyone.

anna* · « **Reply #16 on:** March 16, 2014, 19:26:59 pm »

Yep think we will have to try alternate days. Can anticipate its going to be tough getting CM and gran on board but we'll get there!

Shiv52 · « **Reply #17 on:** March 16, 2014, 20:16:39 pm »

I think nap day and NND works better than capping the nap everyday for some LOs. It like I think Mashi says the NND makes them tired enough to nap and still have a reasonable bedtime on nap days.

What I will say though is this is new for Aud. And she's happy at the minute still going to bed and chattering but I imagine that will not last long term and she'll start to get fed up as she's too UT. So if you do what to keep the nap I do think you may need to consider a later bedtime as part of the plan.

*Ali* · « **Reply #18 on:** March 16, 2014, 20:20:30 pm »

Sorry if this has already been suggested but would she go down earlier and cap the nap herself if UT?

anna* · « **Reply #19 on:** March 16, 2014, 20:24:11 pm »

Becky this has been weeks and weeks now. I posted about needing to cap her nap back in Dec, and then again about having trouble falling asleep in Feb.

Ali, we don't really have set enough naps to be able to tell. Nap time can be anywhere from 12.30-2 depending on whom she is with and the activities for the day. We actually have only been capping naps for the last couple of weeks-ish, but even uncapped she very rarely goes more than 1.5hrs. VERY rarely, only if she's unwell or catching up. So Friday she was poorly, had a fever and tearful all day, she had an early nap, DID sleep 2hrs, but was awake til gone 9pm (apparently feeling much better). And that was AFTER a NND on Thursday.

*Ali* · « **Reply #20 on:** March 16, 2014, 20:30:47 pm »

Will she do just a CN in the buggy or car?

What do you think about alternating nap and NNDs?

anna* · « **Reply #21 on:** March 16, 2014, 20:36:39 pm »

She would I am sure do a catnap, but the hard part is planning it. She may or may not. Childminder has other kids around from 3pm, granny also has Aud's cousin. So 1-2 x per week when she is home alone with me then yes. When Stan's home at the weekend it's not so easy to drag him out for a car ride or a walk (plus if he was on a walk with us Audrey would want to be running/climbing/scooting/doing whatever with him).

I think we'll give it a try, alternating - the hard part is going to be to get CM and granny on board with the NNDs. Aud already does average 1 x NND per week. She had no nap today - had an hour of quiet time lying on the couch with Stan watching Caillou, and coped really great in the afternoon even though we went swimming and then out to grandpa's. Out within 10 mins at 7pm (from an 8.15 ish wake up this morning).

*Ali* · « **Reply #22 on:** March 17, 2014, 19:32:57 pm »

Would it work to do NNDs on the week days you have A and on one of the weekend days? Then days she is with the CM or your mum she could have her decent nap? Is it the same days each week that you have her or does it change?

anna* · « **Reply #23 on:** March 17, 2014, 19:50:36 pm »

It's the same each week.

So yest was NND, all fine. She had a nap with the CM today, 1hr40 (woke herself, 1-2.40) and seemed tired at bedtime. Went for 7.15 bed but half an hour later she's still awake and calling out intermittently.

*Ali* · « **Reply #24 on:** March 17, 2014, 19:54:45 pm »

What time is she getting up in the morning? Just wondering if the 8.15am you mentioned is typical? If so she may need a later BT in nap days to give her at least a 12hr day.

anna* · « **Reply #25 on:** March 17, 2014, 19:58:27 pm »

No not typical, I don't wake them up on a weekend but even so it's unusual to have such a long lie in. Week days I wake them up at 7-7.15 (occasionally they are awake already but never before 6.45)

*Becky* · « **Reply #26 on:** March 17, 2014, 19:58:37 pm »

yes I wondered that too.....

*Ali* · « **Reply #27 on:** March 17, 2014, 20:09:51 pm »

Maybe with more NNDs she will start using the naps as catch up and be more tired at BT even on nap days.

anna* · « **Reply #28 on:** March 17, 2014, 20:50:03 pm »

Quote from: *Ali* on March 17, 2014, 20:09:51 pm

Maybe with more NNDs she will start using the naps as catch up and be more tired at BT even on nap days.

Hope so! That's the plan... Finally asleep at 8pm tonight.

momma.bear · « **Reply #29 on:** March 20, 2014, 00:51:33 am »

We're having the same thing here. DD is 2 yrs &10 months. Always been high sleep needs. The past little while she's been falling asleep later and later. It took me a bit to notice as she would just lie there often, but it took her up to an hour some nights to fall asleep. I'd put her to bed around 7, she'd be asleep around 8, and then up not long after 6. Then she'd have a good 2-2.5 hour nap. Out of the blue this past week she has refused naps 3 out of the 5 past days. But she's sleeping 12 hours at night, so still getting the same amount of sleep. And handling it really well. Not sure I have any advice, just think it's probably best to let them lead. I'm enforcing 'quiet time', where a nap is offered, but whether she sleeps or not, she needs to stay in her room.

anna* · « **Reply #30 on:** March 24, 2014, 00:21:35 am »

Argh! OK so the last week HAD been going really well, alternating nap and no-nap days. But the last two nap days she been taking ages to fall asleep again. Friday she was up until 8 which, OK, then Saturday she had no nap, was asleep at 6.30. Today she woke up at 7.15, had a 1.5hr nap from 1.30-3, got into bed at 7.30, and didn't fall asleep until 9! Singing, counting, pretending to get her foot stuck in the cot, telling her dolly to lie down and be quiet

she was keeping Stan awake for goodness sake.

And that means she's going to be operating on 10hrs sleep tomorrow, for another no nap day $:-\$

I think we have to drop the nap

she's not even 2.5 yet.

HenaV · « **Reply #31 on:** March 24, 2014, 07:56:41 am »

I have not btdt so feel free to completely disregard my view (!) Are you sure she's ready and the issue if the nap as opposed to a developmental thing?

H

anna* · « **Reply #32 on:** March 24, 2014, 08:06:05 am »

It's been going on for months Hena, developmental things are usually a couple of weeks, no?

HenaV · « **Reply #33 on:** March 24, 2014, 08:09:41 am »

I know you've been battling this for a while hon but I was just wondering whether it was a combo of reduced SNs and developmental maybe given her age? For us some developmental stuff has lasted weeks - we had a crazy time at around 27m which lasted quite literally weeks.

Ultimately hon I think you need to follow your gut feeling on this x

anna* · « **Reply #34 on:** March 24, 2014, 08:12:11 am »

Yeh. Trouble is my gut is quiet on this one

she has never been LSN but this has been going on and gettin worse since before Xmas and I don't see what other options would be.

michaeljacknnugg · « **Reply #35 on:** March 24, 2014, 08:43:25 am »

From my perspective she's late (we were done with all naps by 2.5) but from other friends' kids she fits within the realms of normal for nap dropping. Can you introduce more NNDs? We were down to one a week - which gave us a break at a weekend for a while - before they all finally went.

At some point, all naps = evil for us.

*Ali* · « **Reply #36 on:** March 24, 2014, 09:03:25 am »

Cadan is high sleep needs to but had dropped all by the very occasional, accidental car nap by 2.5yo. He much preferred a 13.5hr night. He didn't ever get that much sleep in total with a nap. Maybe A is the same.

anna* · « **Reply #37 on:** March 24, 2014, 09:07:33 am »

Yeh I think so. Was hoping to hold onto it a bit because early bedtime is such a struggle, difficult to start everything early enough so that she can be in bed early enough, yk? She'll never get 13.5hrs at night - never more than 12.5 really - even though I think that's probably what she would do, because I have to wake her up at 7am so we can get to school.

Shiv52 · « **Reply #38 on:** March 24, 2014, 09:39:39 am »

What time do you leave the house for school? I literally left R until we were about to walk out the door then put her warm coat on over her jammies and sorted her when we got home. Would that work on days you have her at home?

anna* · « **Reply #39 on:** March 24, 2014, 09:45:09 am »

Yes but at the moment I only have her home 1 x per week as I've got quite a bit of work on.

Shiv52 · « **Reply #40 on:** March 24, 2014, 09:46:48 am »

Useless suggestion then! Unless you just ask your mum and childminder to dress her after you drop her off. It's so frustrating knowing what might help and not being able to fit it in. R could have done with a nap and later bedtime like we did with M but it just didn't fit in with life.

anna* · « **Reply #41 on:** March 24, 2014, 10:02:01 am »

Now you mention it, childminder and mum I'm sure would be happy to dress her and do breakfast - BUT I don't think i could wake up Stan without waking up Audrey too!

anna* · « **Reply #42 on:** April 03, 2014, 19:56:49 pm »

Argh. Well the alternate nap/no-nap days SEEMED to be going 'ok' but the childminder was unhappy, so I agreed to try just a short (no more than 60 mins) nap every day. I could see the logic, giving a rhythm and consistency to her days. And it's true that on some NNDs she was just kind of insane by about 4pm.

So for about 10 days she's been having a short nap each day (except for Saturday which she missed) and sleep time at night has been creeping steadily later... it's 8.50, and she's only just gone quiet.

*Ali* · « **Reply #43 on:** April 03, 2014, 20:13:36 pm »

An hour for us every day would take at least 2hrs off the night. Could you cap it even more? If the childminder isn't happy what about skipping naps in days she isn't with the CM and letting her nap on days she is?

I see this often with day care scenarios where they want the benefit of a nap I.e. A break for themselves and a happy, well rested child in the afternoon but it is the parents who have to deal with the evening shenanigans

anna* · « **Reply #44 on:** April 03, 2014, 20:27:25 pm »

Exactly. But tbf Aud does get really OS at the childminders house for the last hour or 2 before I pick her up as the house fills up with bigger kids home from school and all wanting to play with baby Audrey.

Guess we will try cutting the nap further, thanks that's useful info.

Shiv52 · « **Reply #45 on:** April 03, 2014, 21:36:24 pm »

yeah we definately got to the stage where even a half hour nap meant bedtime nonsense. R seemed to be able to go for so many more hours off a short power nap. I also found the madness of NNDs settled quicker once thats all we were having. her body really did regulate much better once it realised sleep was only coming at night time.

i guess you can cap the nap and if it isn't working the childminder likely does need to accept the no napping. I mean it is going to happen eventually anyways.

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Author Topic: Which to preserve, a longer nap or a longer night? (Read 4487 times)