Sudden early rising after starting to STTN

[Gecko2014]

Hi Ladies,
I know this is a common issue but I'm having trouble working out how to best approach it for our LO. My son he has just started STTN. He is 11.5 months so this has been a while in coming and we don't want to go backwards if we can avoid it. Before STTN, his day was starting around 6/6:30, with a feed between 3am and 5am. When he first stopped feeding at night, we had some broken nights (sometimes he just wakes to play) but our day still started around 6:30 and he was able to go 12 hours between feeds without issue. The last few days however he seems to have decided that 5am is wake-up-for-the-day time. I have avoided feeding until 6 to avoid cementing the 5am start but as soon as he sees me he wants to feed (not surprisingly) and it seems that without a feed he won't go back to sleep. When I feed at 6, he is often passing out and sleeping for an hour which throws the routine and shows me that he really wasn't ready to get up and was probably hungry. This morning he woke at 4am and looked like he was trying to settle but at 5am I got up to feed him and he went to sleep until 8am (which is unheard of for him). The last few days, his day sleeps haven't been good and I think he getting OT from the 5am wakes because he isn't catching it up during the day.

So... the question. Should I go back to doing a 5am feed as a night feed and getting him back to sleep until 6 or 7? And then... he'll drop it or get later and later when he is ready? Is there another way to approach this?

Key other details for us are: 11.5 month old boy, no health issues. Usual routine is awake around 6, down around 9:30/10 for 1-1.5hrs, down 2:30/3:00 for half an hour and into bed for the night around 6:30. I do naps based on the awake interval, rather than time of day but it usually around the same time unless he got up really early on a given day. He is usually happy even if naps are on the shorter side but lately he is getting grumpy so I think I need to help him get some more sleep. This last week he is averaging 12-12.5 hours in 24 hours.

[newkidontheblock]

Hi there
Could you post your routine in EASY format please? That would make it easy to see if any tweaks would help. Other than that, a few questions - how long has this been happening - could it be a growth spurt? There is a big one around 12 months, so something to think about. If he is eating and going right back to sleep, I would feed, However, it might help to increase that amount in day feeds. How is his milk and solids intake ?
Have you read this, hun?
Early Waking

[Gecko2014]

Okay. The routine is:

E - BF at 6:30/7:00 (or on waking if he has gone all night without a feed). Breakfast around 7:30/8:00
A -
E - Snack around 9
S - 10 until 11/11:30

E - BF 11:00 or on waking if later than 11. Lunch around 12/12:30
A -
E - possible snack in the car if we are out and about
S - 2:30/3:00 for half an hour

E - BF between 3 and 4pm
A - kindy pick-up
E - dinner around 5pm

E - BF around 6:15
S - into bed around 6:30/7:00

We have always had a bit of variability in the routine. My LO doesn't wake consistently at the same although the range is usually 5:45-7:00. On the days that he wakes earlier or later or shuffle the naps and feeds a bit so the interval (of A time) is kept fairly consistent.

The 5am wakes have been happening for about 4 days. This having been said, today and yesterday were okay. Today, in fact he is still asleep now (it is 7:15 and that is very rare) so yes, a growth spurt is definitely possible. Yesterday I also had complete sleep refusal at 2:30 despite doing the feed at 3:30 and going for a drive at 4:00. He was 6.5 hours awake at 6pm when I put him to bed. Maybe it's 2 -> 1 transition time and this is why the naps are going haywire. I starting pushing the A time yesterday and will do that again today.

He eats fairly well most days. I breast feed so I can't really increase intake there. I offer solids until he won't eat any more and usually end on something he likes so he has a little more. When I feed during the night, he usually goes straight back to sleep but we periodically have these night where he wants to play in the night. This happened last night from 3:30-5:00. My husband got up so he didn't feed. In the past, I have got up and he has wanted to feed but afterwards has still wanted to be awake and playing for up to 2 hours.

[Gecko2014]

I just read that link again. First nap of the day too early and developmental milestone are the most likely I think. We have the room very dark, there isn't much happening in the house until 6/6:30 and our response to him is to be as boring as possible (although we have a different times tried all of the above AP options).

Is there a link on 2 -> 1 nap transitions. I can't see the section where I might find these information-type posts.

[newkidontheblock]

They are all here, sweety
SLEEP
and
EASY

This is the one about the 2-1
From 2 to 1 nap transition (10-12m and older)

I hope you don't mind but I will respond in length tomorrow. Very tired today

[newkidontheblock]

It seems to me that his A times need to be increased. DD is around the same age and is doing 5.10 A right now. Basically you are doing a long (ish) am, short pm routine, which would be fine on a longer A. With this short A, the first nap is too early and too short, and then there is too long a gap to bed after that pm catnap. And moreover, that is too less day sleep overall. All of this is leading to OT, and compounding the EW issue.  At this point, until your first nap lengthens out, I don't think this routine is sustainable. He would need another proper nap of at least an hour to make it to bed comfortably.

Hope that helps

[Gecko2014]

Thank you. I am pushing the A times as we speak. We were averaging 3.5 when things we haywire and at that time he was doing 1.5hrs in the morning and 30 in the afternoon. I pushed to 4hrs yesterday (no change in length of nap of AM nap but we got 1hr in the car in the afternoon) and to 4.25 today (he has just gone down). I will push further tomorrow.

I am however struggling to work out what to do with his feeds. 3 days ago I tried to push to 4hrs and offered the feed early (around 3hours awake to be clear of nap time) but he passed out during the feed and, of course, catnapped as a result. Today I offered the solid lunch at 11 with a view to having him full enough to sleep well but not relaxing into sleep at the BF. I will offer it when he wakes up instead. He has a 5am and 730am feed today so I'm feeling okay about this. Other days I might be less confident to put him to bed, sans feed.

[Gecko2014]

Okay... this is what has been happening, focusing on nap #1 and trying to work out the current ideal A time.

Tuesday:
Wakes at 3am, alert and wanting to play. Daddy does the settle and he is asleep again just before 5am. He then sleeps until just before 730am. I don't wake him because he has been really OT lately and I want to him to catch up a bit where he can. I am planning to keep him up for 4 hours so I offer his feed early (10:45am) with a view to nap time at 11:30. He is falling asleep during the feed but I keep him awake and then put him to bed. He is asleep instantly at 11 and sleeps for 30 minutes. This was 3.5hours A time. The same thing happens in the after, during his 3pm feed. He sleeps 20minutes in my arms. He is asleep for the night at 6:30, has a restless night and when my husband goes in to check his heater around 11pm, he wakes up and takes an hour+ to resettle.

Wednesday:
Wakes and feeds at 6am (this is his 'normal' wake up time). I give him 4 hours A time, putting him down just after 10am. He sleep 30 minutes. At 2:30pm we are out in the car and he sleeps for 55 minutes. He goes to bed at 7pm. He sleeps soundly.

Thursday:
Wakes at 5:30am. I offer a feed and put him back to bed. To my surprise he goes back to sleep and wakes again at 7:15am. We feed on waking and I keep him up for 4h15. He then sleeps for 1 hour and a bit (11:30-12:45) but that's it for the day. I did lunch before the nap and feed after. I didn't offer him another sleep in his bed but we were out in the car and the pram so I am certain he would have called asleep if needed. I put him to bed just after 6pm (earlier than normal) and he sleeps soundly until 5am.

Friday:
Wakes at 5:30am. I offer a feed and put him back to bed (hopeful of repeating yesterday). But no cigar. He wants up so I get him up, feed him at 7, keep him up until 10 (because I don't want to bring that first nap any earlier). He tries to dose of on our walk at 930 (which would have been 3.5 hours awake) but we are okay until 10. I offer a snack right before the nap but its too early for lunch and I don't want to chance the feed. It is 4h45 A time by this point and he sleeps 36 minutes. His behaviour is more like OT than UT.

What would you try next?

[newkidontheblock]

I will push further tomorrow.

Don't push too quickly. He will get very OT and that will lead to its own share of issues. Hold at one point for a few days before pushing again.

WRT feeds, I feed on WU in the morning and from naps and finally at BT, so no chance of DD falling asleep:p

So looking at your second post, I feel that he is very OT due to the sudden push in A times. This is leading to the EWs and NWs. 30 minute naps are generally indicative of OT. What I would suggest is firstly stop pushing A and stick with this time for a while to let his body adjust. It isn't just about pushing the A time but he also should be able to nap longer with this new A. Right now he is doing long As but getting very little sleep. 1 hour and a bit is simply not enough and you can be sure that the NWs and EWs will continue unless his day sleep goes up. When he wakes from the nap, do you try to resettle him? I think it is necessary to do anything possible to get him more day sleep at the moment in order to catch up on the OT. If possible, be in his room at the 30 minute mark and try to settle him before he fully wakes.

Right now he would need at least 2 hours day sleep. DD is on the lower end of sleep needs and she needs that much. So if he takes a one hour morning nap, whether it can be extended or not, a catnap is essential in order for him to make it to bed without being madly OT. What A time are you doing after the CN? I found that my DD could only handle around 1.40 A max and even others on this routine have found that keeping a short A to bed works best to keep OT at bay.

[Gecko2014]

Some of your suggestions ring true for us, some do not.

In the past 2 hours total nap time seems to be optimal for him. This was composed by 1.5hrs one nap and 30 minutes the other, with him him alternating these (more or less at random). I have have had limited success with resettling and cycle blending post 6 months. I find that, if more sleep is needed, leaving him to make the transition between cycles or shhh-ing through the monitor is enough to get him to get him back to sleep. Failing this, nothing works (including the opportunity to dose off at the post-nap feed) and I have concluded that if he doesn't resettle easily, he simply isn't tired enough. I should also add that, most of the time, he wakes very happy and easily gets to his next sleep time without obvious signs of OT.

All of this having been said, on the days that he gets 2x catnaps, he also copes quite well. A few days of it, lead to the OT signs, 1 day like this is manageable. I do however makes sure he gets to bed early on these nights.

I don't think he is OT due to a sudden push in A times. He was not OT when the A time was 3.5 hours and there were days when it pushed out to 3.75 or 4, even 4.25, on occasion due to life circumstances or him taking a little longer to settle. So.. the push to 4 or 4.25 isn't a sudden or big change in A time for him. I usually judge the  OT/UT situation by both his ability to settle easily and the length of his nap. The 30 minute sleep seems to be most characteristic, for us, of UT with OT sleeps being more like 18 minutes and often requiring settling support.

I do however agree that slowing the increments would be advantageous to give it a few days for any changes to shake through. I did however have a little panic about the possibility of going to one sleep (and having a huge strength in the afternoon if I didn't push the morning nap back) and/or having to get to 5hrs A time (as you originally suggested might be needed) from 3.5 before his naps would improve.

Our sweet spot after the CN (before bedtime) seems to be 3.5. This also seems to be the case if the morning nap was a CN. If I pull the bedtime A any earlier, I get major settling difficulties. I see this for an A time less than 3 hours unless the nap situation was extremely low for that day. Anything over 5.5 hours results in feeding to sleep at the bedtime feed and around 5 hours is often an OT settle, where I need to shhh-pat or similar.

I hope that isn't information overload. I just wanted to highlight the characteristics of this individual and how they are impacting on the struggle to identify his ideal A time at this point in time.

[Gecko2014]

To add to the picture, DS2's routine at around 6 months was A times in the 2-3-3.5 pattern. This was when an A of 2.5 was the norm. So... his last A time has been the long one for some time and he has 'liked' (for want of a better word) the inconsistency in A times across the day.

[newkidontheblock]

Great observations:) you're obviously very clued in to his cues. A few points-

I don't think he is OT due to a sudden push in A times. He was not OT when the A time was 3.5 hours and there were days when it pushed out to 3.75 or 4, even 4.25, on occasion due to life circumstances or him taking a little longer to settle. So.. the push to 4 or 4.25 isn't a sudden or big change in A time for him. I usually judge the  OT/UT situation by both his ability to settle easily and the length of his nap. The 30 minute sleep seems to be most characteristic, for us, of UT with OT sleeps being more like 18 minutes and often requiring settling support.

As you said previously, OT may not show immediately but it accumulates over time. Shorter nights of 10-10.5 hours are generally indicative of OT. So it doesn't matter how great the naps were on a particular day... The EW would continue because he is ultimately still OT. Of course this is just what I have found with my DD. You know your DS best.

OT sleeps being more like 18 minutes and often requiring settling support.

20 minutes generally means very OT

Ultimately, hun, I can only share what has worked for us. As you said, each baby is an individual. You have my suggestions. Do keep me updated on your progress

[Gecko2014]

Will do.

Tell me this though... given where we are at. Would you go back to 3.5 to get things stabilised or keep going from the current point?

[newkidontheblock]

IIWM, I wouldn't reduce it by so much but I would hold at this point for a few days and hope the naps lengthen and his body adjusts. If it does, great. If not, I would pull back by 5-10 minutes and try.

[Gecko2014]

Okay. But what is IIWM?

I was also wondering, given that he wants to nap at 3.5 hours A time in the morning but this is inevitably a short nap, if I should let the first nap be short - early , while out and about etc - and then push the A time for the longer nap in the early afternoon. With a view to ultimately dropping the AM nap and pulling the PM one forward. It might be what his body is telling me he wants to do at the minute and I haven't been listening.