BabyWhispererForums.com
SLEEP => Sleeping For Toddlers => Topic started by: Tao on June 06, 2010, 21:26:54 pm
-
Hello Ladies,
I really need help. My DD is on nap strike right now and I believe it is because of a bad case of SA. On Friday, I think her A time jumped and I didn't realize it so she was playing around and finally started screaming so after an hour later, we got her up and tried putting her down again and she only had a 30 minute nap. Yesterday...same thing...40 min nap total. So, I know she is OT but I'm also seeing something else that I'm not used to.
A month ago we had to WIWO to teach her go down and it worked like a charm, she would whine for a bit during naps but go down after 10 minutes. For BT, not one peep and she would be down. Since Friday, I have been home to put her down for naps since the school year is over and now when I put her down she immediately stands up and screams at the top of her lungs. I tried going back in there to comfort her but every time I left it made it worse. Finally, this was today's schedule:
Wake 5 a.m.
Nap (tried to put her down at 9:30, finally picked her up at 10:30 to no avail.)
Nap (Tried putting her down again at 11:30, refused going down and finally got he at 1:00)
Nap (tried putting her down again at 2:15, refused going down and now she is screaming again)
This is what seems to happen each time:
Pops up immediately when I leave screaming. So I reenter and comfort for a minute and leave but she stops in between her wailing so it's not a consistent scream. It's more like Scream, Scream, Scream, break. But the problem is she stands at the corner of her crib the ENTIRE time. She never once lays down which makes it hard for her to fall asleep. This morning she stood for an hour and a half wailing and stopping the entire time until I got her. Now, I'm worried that she thinks, hey if I wait long enough mom will come in and eventually get me. The only reason I went to get her is because it was her lunch time and I knew she would be hungry.
I'm not sure what to do at this point. It's almost the end of the day and she hasn't slept for 1 minute. This has never happened before. After the initial WIWO training, I never really had to go back in there. She would usually just whine. I think, however, that now that she's 14 months, she's smarter and I sort of feel like she's playing a game with me like if I wait and stand long enough, mommy will come in to get me.
Help! I'm not sure how to get her caught up from all this OT and how to break the SA cycle?! Do I just do WIWO until she sleeps?
Thanks for your advice!
Christine
-
With WIWO, I wouldn't spend a minute in there comforting her, otherwise you're right, she has every incentive to just keep shrieking til you come back. When you go in, just lay her down (unless that makes her more angry) and/or say your key sleep phrase, then leave again. No rubbing, cuddling, patting, shushing. Very matter of fact, very QUICK. Remember, if she's just frustrated yelling, or stop-start crying, you don't need to go into her at all, just wait and listen and only go in when she really needs you.
Also I wouldn't go on doing WIWO for hours at a time. Like with PUPD, for naps do it for 45 mins, then abandon the nap, do a reduced A, and start again at the next nap. At bedtime, keep going without a break until she sleeps.
I know this is hard. Is teething an issue too, have you tried giving pain meds 30 mins before nap time?
No nap days are alarming but they will happen once in a while. Super early bedtime, and try to get back on track tomorrow.
-
Hi Anna,
Thanks so much for the advice. This really helps! Yesterday she finally went down after being absolutely exhausted at 5 p.m. and slept until 5:30 a.m. which was nice. I was expecting NWs.
Today she went down for her nap after 20 minutes. This is because I took your advice and didn't go in there when she was just frustrated crying. I tend to have the poor baby syndrome and want to cuddle her when she's upset. I had a few questions as we approach this better way of WIWO:
1) If she is used to having 4 hours A time and she doesn't take a nap after 45 minutes, how much do you reduce her next A time before trying the nap again? Yesterday, I only waited an hour before attempting again and I think this was too close to the first attempt so she fought it.
2)If she fights a nap and I pick her up after 45 minutes, do you think she will continue to stand and fight her next nap in hopes that I will pick her up again after another 45 minutes; or, will she eventually be tired enough and give in? I know WIWO is harder with naps given the short time we have to do it.
3) I don't think she was teething, but I think she was itchy from eczema so I gave her some benadryl today before her nap and it helped.
Thanks again Anna for your great insight!
-
I don't have much advice as I'm battling similar issues. But if she's itchy from the eczema it might be bothering her and she's not able to drift off. LO#1 has eczema and when its flaring up I always put her prescription cream on her spots and also if its bad give benadryl so she's not digging her skin. This helps her sleep b/c she's not so itchy.
I've learned to treat any pain/itchiness and then be firm but gentle with them.(of course treat them before the nap if they need it) My LO is a bit older probably than y ours. She just turned two a couple days ago. For her nap time I just use wi/wo and tell her to lay down with her bear, its nap time and Mommy will be back when its time to get up.
Good luck!!
-
My guess is that she was fighting the nap after an hour of A time because she was already overtired. If she doesn't sleep I would get her up after 45 mins then try again in an hour, repeat, after 2-3 attempts then give it up as a bad day and do WIWO again at bedtime.
-
Christine,
I'm sorry you're having to do WIWO again. It's tough, isn't it? I think Anna's right about being very matter of fact and quick about it, which it sounds like you are doing and having some success. I also get the poor baby syndrome (I would fix her blankie, fetch her dog off the floor, etc), but then I realized it really wasn't helping anything and just making the process longer.
I ended up changing to just opening the door, saying my phrase, and then closing it again (my LO is about 6 mo older, though, so I knew she didn't need more than that, but you may want to give it a try sometime). I found this way helped me stay stronger and not want to help her so much. The closer I got to her, the more I felt I needed to help her.
Also, my DD always stands in the corner of the crib. There were days when I thought she would NEVER lie down, and for the first week that I did WIWO, I ended up always helping her in the end. But this last time I did it, I resolved not to because I know she's fully capable of doing it, and sure enough, she still stands and wants me to stay with her most days, but once I close the door, I can hear her lie down and start to work on falling asleep.
It may just be the change of her being at home with you now; little things can sometimes have a big impact on their lives. But I bet if you keep with it, she'll get it soon. Remember the success you've already had. That always helps to keep me going!
Best wishes!!
-
Hi Ladies,
Thanks for your advice! Katie I'm so glad your DD is doing better! Last night it took Sophie almost an hour to go down. She did have a great 2 hour nap though and I put her down for what I wanted to be an early BT but she ended up fussing until 6:15 instead.
This morning's nap took 30 minutes and just like before she stood in the corner the entire time and finally went down after being exhausted from standing. I'm hoping she has a decent nap today.
I have one question that I need reassurance about. Last night and this morning I didn't end up going back in at all. The reason is because she will scream loud but it's like a few loud screams and then stop, a few loud screams and then stop and then she resorts to whining, then biting her bear, then walking around, and the screams again. Every time I thought I had to go in there due to the screaming, she would stop.
Is this okay? I feel a bit odd doing WI WO with no walking in. I do know also that I don't go in if it's start stop but the start part sounds so horrible, but then she stops.
* If I never have to go in, will this make SA worse?
* Also, I remember reading from Tracy's Sleep Interview that WIWO may not be recommended for SA. Has anyone else come across this? If so, what IS the recommended sleep training method for SA?
Thanks again. I thought I was home free after the first bought of WIWO success..but here I am again =).
-
Well she had a great nap!! That's really good. :)
Sorry you're having trouble though.
I think if they scream out for a few seconds calm and then fuss or whine they are soothing theirselves and I only go to my lo's if they can't sooth their selves.. That's how I got into this whole mess in the first place with lo #1. I was over babying her... ie poor baby syndrome! I always wanted to calm her and help her. But what I learned was she's got to learn to do that her self. Yes I need to help her if she can't (when she's screaming and can't calm her self). But give her the chance to be able to do it for her self. I have a video monitor and if I sit there all day I can see everything she's doing. I try to turn it around so I only hear the noise and can flip it around if I actually *need* to see what she's doing. My lo tosses her blankets and animals out in anger a lot but I no longer run in there and give them back to her. I've found being firm is the best for her.
Maybe count for 30 seconds and if she keeps the hard screaming up then do go in. But if she stops then restart your count. If she does stop she's calming her self and you want to encourage her to do it herself instead of always relying on you to do it. But always go to her if she can't calm herself. Using wi/wo is terrific!
I think by walking in when she doesn't really *need* you, it teaches her that she can't do it herself and needs you to do it. And she'll really get back in the cycle of demanding you in there all the time.
I've used wi/wo with my lo when she was having SA problems and it was hard but seemed to show her I'm always here if she needs me, but right now its 'nap or night time'. I do walk in (during SA) and tell her 'mommy is here and loves you but its nap time'. I do this from the door and never go in any further as she's plenty old enough to lay herself down and go to sleep. Sometimes I can hear her repeating 'mommy here' to herself. I guess reminding herself that I'm still here.
The good news is that you've already established 'ground rules' when you did wi/wo the first time. Just keeping consistent will get her back to how she was in no time. I would make sure she's comfortable with some anti-itch cream before sleep times, though. I know eczema is quite itchy my dd has it too.
Good luck!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :)
-
Christine, so sorry I haven't been around so much. You are getting great advice here! You may find that 30 seconds is too long, or not long enough - the important part, is the listening[/i] and really making sure you're only going in when she needs you.
I find that WIWO is pretty good for SA - it teaches her that mummy will always come if she needs you! The alternative would be to do some kind of Gradual Withdrawal, but it really sounds like Sophie is well able to settle herself.
-
I was worried about some of the same things with SA as I had read that too. But, what both ahk and Anna have said are right, if you go to her when she *needs* you (i.e. by listening to the cry), then it can't make the SA worse. I thought about trying GW because of my worries about SA, but really since my LO already did know how to settle herself, if I was in the room it just took that much longer and became a game. So, I stuck to WIWO.
There were some times when I went in before I counted to 30 and there were some times I felt like you, 'is this really WIWO if I'm just standing here on the other side of the door?'. I was also given the advice that you can just call or shh from outside the door if you feel she needs assurance that you're still there. I know those initial screams are really hard to hear, but I do think the stop-start crying means she is trying to settle herself.
-
Tao,
I wanted to give you some encouragement. My LO is having terrible SA right now due to starting a new nursery, teething, having a new baby brother and my husband being gone for work a lot. She's been a COMPLETE nightmare and still has TERRIBLE tantrums during the day. :(
BUT I've had HUGE success in the napping and night time department! I've been quite firm with her (after giving her motrin 45 min before sleep times and orajel, I also put cream on her eczema patches) I give her a warning at lunch that after we are done eating we will change her diaper and put her creams on then it will be nap time. I give her several warnings during lunch. I also tell her after nap time we will get a juice pack and a snack. So I'm REALLY preparing her mentally to take a nap. Then I take her upstairs as I'm singing her lullaby, turn her white noise on, give her bear to her and lay her down, blanket goes on. I then tell her I love her so much and I'll see her when her nap time is over. I walk out. Now before she would scream shreak and shrill at the top of her lungs as I was peeling her off me. She wouldn't allow her body to even touch the bed before she was standing and totally flipping out. But with gentle but VERY firm wi/wo she's back to her old self now. We've been battling ear infections and teething lately so its gotten us off track. So to get back on (since she knows how to sleep by herself) track we just do wi/wo. She used to seem frantic and but with being VERY consistent she now knows that mommy WILL ALWAYS be back to get her after her nap and its okay to nap now. The first time I go in with wi/wo I always tell her 'mommy is here and loves you so much, I'll ALWAYS be back to get you, but its nap time, mommy will get you when nap time is over' Then I leave and proceed with wi/wo only if she *needs* me.
I just wanted to give you some encouragement!!!!
Good luck!!
-
Hi Katie and AHK,
Thank you SO much for sharing your personal stories. It helps to hear how WIWO DOES work. I have seen progress since the first day of my being off work. This morning it took her 50 minutes to go down but I am sure it was due to her itchiness. I gave her the medication too late before it had time to kick in. But for BT last night and tonight it only took 10 minutes! She wailed in the beginning when I first left but then she lay down and realized it was time to sleep.
I was wondering if either of you have tried WIWO for traveling when you are out of town. We have several trips planned for this summer since my sister in law is getting married and in the past we have had horrible experiences to where I gave in and APed her until she finally slept. However, I'm thinking this time of trying WIWO with her but don't know if this is too harsh being that she doesn't know the environment like her own bedroom. Just wondering...
Also, do you notice that your LOs scream at the top of their lungs but then stop for a few seconds and then repeat? I guess sometimes I second guess the "I NEED you cries." I sometimes feel embarrased to even mention that at times I'm not sure what "I need you means". I know every baby is different too...
Thank you for responding to my posts. It makes me feel good that you are willing to help =)
-
TBH I'm not sure about wi/wo while on vacay. I'm looking to see what other say as well. I have a VERY touch/sprited LO and also have trouble when we are away. What I usually do is get a dark room (in mother-n-law's house) and turn white noise on. I take her in there after I know she's exhausted. All the lights are off and its pitch dark. I have a sippy of warm milk and lay her down and rock her while she drinks it. I then lay her down with her bear and creep out. She goes down most of the time out of utter exhaustion. I have NO luck putting her down in a different environment (other than her own bed) very awake. She is almost passed out on the sippy when I lay her down. I'm so sorry not to have any good advice! Hopefully someone else can help out. I tried wi/wo for a nap while at mother n law's and she went COMPLETELY nuts!!!! She was terrified! So naps are a no go when we are gone. We usually let her nap in the car when we are out and about. :( I just hate that but don't know what else to do.
That's great that it was only 10 minuets!! Improvement!! I know my lo if she goes down and is very itchy it could take a while or end badly. I try to give some creams that relieve the itch. Or if she's bad I give benadryl per her dr's instructions.
My LO does the brief screams as well. I've realized its just her way of trying to get me back in there and also expressing her frustration at being put in bed. For my LO 'I NEED you cries' are wailing that doesn't stop after 20-30 seconds. The brief screams and wails are just her expressing her frustration. She has actually stopped these now. Which is nice. I view 'I need you screaming' as when she's getting so upset she is frantic and unable to calm herself. That's when I start wi/wo and let her know I"m here but its nap time and she needs to lay down and go to sleep. I don't know how old your lo is but mine gets infuriated when I try to lay her down. She just turned two and has been like that since she was 16 months. So I just let her lay herself down. I don't go to her any more either. I just open the door and tell her to lay down and go to sleep. I don't retrieve her items she's launched out either. Its taken me a long time to get to this point but I had SUCH a struggle with her. And its great now, she's responded sooooooooooooooooooooo wonderfully! I just lay her down and walk out. It takes 15 seconds from the time I walk up stairs. So nice!
I think just some more gentle firmness is what will help your lo. Let her know you love her very much and will always get her after her nap. But this is not cuddle time its NAP TIME and all the cuddles and time spending together will be AFTER the nap, not now. And you will see her then. PERIOD. I'm not sure about your LO's personality but just holding firm works with my LO. She just had to test me long enough to find that I'm NOT backing down anymore. THe problem is I did for a long time. So she knew she could push me enough for me to get her out of the crib. But those days are over!
-
Hi ALK,
I know what you mean about sleeping on vacations. My DD is touchy/spirited also and she DOES NOT sleep anywhere else other than her bed. I think we will need to implement the same methods as you. She would scream when she was little very time I put her down for a nap and the only way I got her to go to bed was to nurse her to sleep, which sometimes took an hour to an hour and a half because she was SO OT. I know that it will be hard but I"m hoping that when we get home it doesn't take too much WIWO to get her back on track. It's horrible that I dread leaving the house because it makes me seem like such a party pooper but at the same time it's so hard when you have a child that doesn't transition well and is not very flexible...
Thank you for your description about the cries. I DO agree that her wailing IS trying to get me to go back in there because sometimes she will even call my name while in the midst of the cries. She hasn't really had screaming cries that last for more than a few seconds. She will always scream, then stop for a second or two, and whine for a few more seconds, then scream again. Then she may lay down then get back up. Every time she gets back up there will be a loud scream that proceeds that to try to get me to go back in. This was helpful. Thank you because I keep thinking that I"m not doing the WI WO correctly since most of it is WO and i haven't really had to walk back in. I felt odd about it, but i guess i'm doing it right thus far...
My DD is 14 months now and like your Anna-Li, she too, does not like it when I try to put her down. She has never liked it and screams bloody murder if I try to lay her into the bed, so I just leave her be and let her lay down when she's fully exhausted.
I can't wait to reach the success that you have and get back to those BT's without a single peep!
Thanks again!
Christine
-
Oh you will get there!! If you stay consistent with her, I promise you will get there. She will know your not backing down and you mean what you say. One thing that's helped me is to put her down and walk all the way down stairs (while she's shrieking at the top of her lungs) to turn the monitor on. If she's still going bananas after I'm down stairs and turning on the monitor, I get a glass of water. Then after 30 seconds if she's still wild I open the door and tell her to lay down. Its nap time and mommy will get her after nap time is over. Then I walk all the way back down stairs and do one more small thing. If another 30 seconds passes and she hasn't stopped and started screaming I walk up and do the same thing. This helps me to not stand by the door where its too easy for me to do wi/wo when its not even needed thus making things WORSE for me. Once I started doing this and giving it a second while walking away to do something brief, it made me realize I had been standing by the door just waiting to interfere and not allow her to settle herself. I'm terrible at that. :( but now that I 'do' something after I lay her down it gives me the opportunity to give it a second to even see if she needs me or not.
Yes having a touchy/spirited kid is VERY hard when traveling. And we don't go to many out of town functions b/c of this. Most people with easy going lo's don't understand it at all and get their feelings hurt. But we do the best we can and that's all I can say.
WI/WO works wonders after being on vaycay and bending rules. My LO understands now that there are different rules when we are away but the minuet she steps foot back in this house we are right back to the same old rules. Not adjustment phase or bending them at all. I just have to be SO firm with her or she will have me running in loops for weeks after a travel.
When we travel I wait until she's about to drop dead of exhaustion. Then I threaten EVERYONE in the house that if they wake her she gets to keep them up all night. Not me! LOL!! ;) I do any aping I have to get her to be almost passed out then lay her down. It works 99% of the time. Then the day we get back its STRAIGHT back to our old routine of her going to bed VERY awake and zero aping. I just walk up and put her right in bed wide awake with her bear to put herself down. This is the only way I can do it with her. GW NEVER worked with her at all!!
Sometimes on vacay she gets a bit OT from not napping much (only in the cars while we are out and about) and going down exhausted but we make up as soon as we get home. Early bt's and early naps. With a LO that isn't flexible you just do what works.
-
It's horrible that I dread leaving the house because it makes me seem like such a party pooper but at the same time it's so hard when you have a child that doesn't transition well and is not very flexible...
Oh, if I could count the times I've felt like a party pooper! ;) Similar stories here.
We haven't really been anywhere since this recent go through of WIWO (except for my parents' house, which went very well), but in the past if my LO isn't OT, she will sleep pretty well in other places. We have done our share of driving her for naps, but as long as she's not way OT at bedtime she goes down just as well as at home. It may be the textbook side of her. I'm sure you both do this as well, but I bring everything she is used to at home . . . blankie, lovey, other crib things, her fan, and a few of her favorite books (it does take a little room when packing, but for us it's worth it). Sometime before wind-down (usually as I'm getting the room ready for her), I point out the 'bed' she will be sleeping in (be it a crib or pack n' play, whatever). Then I find something fun about it. 'Oh cute, look at the flowers/polka dots/snowmen on the sheets, isn't that fun? And that's where YOU get to sleep.' Then we try to keep everything as routine as normal. We do a bath if possible, go through our whole wind-down, and then lay her in the crib, just like at home.
This summer as we travel I plan to do the same and I will try WI/WO if needed. I feel like she knows what to expect with that and should be able to do it. However, if it doesn't work, I know she will usually fall asleep (if quite tired) while I rub her back, so that is something to fall back on and I'll re-do WI/WO at home if needed.
If I were you, I'd give it a try. She may surprise you. My LO definitely did. I used to nurse her to sleep in other places as well, but once she was weaned and sleeping independently, she's done a pretty good job.
I sometimes feel embarrased to even mention that at times I'm not sure what "I need you means". I know every baby is different too...
And FWIW, I've felt like this a lot too. I think their cries also change as they get older and that makes a difference too. When I just did WI/WO, I had a hard time deciphering if it was an 'I need you' cry or 'I'm really mad to be in here' cry. As with ahk, I find if I hang back a little rather than stand right at the door, it's usually not as bad as I think. The hardest for me right now is the, 'Mommy, Mommy, Mommy,' which almost is like a mantra, but just tugs at your heart!
-
The hardest for me right now is the, 'Mommy, Mommy, Mommy,' which almost is like a mantra, but just tugs at your heart!
Totally agree, once they have language the cries are so much harder to decipher! We can't help it, we listen to the words! My LO used to cry 'I need my mummy, I need a cuddle, I need my mummy' over and over - then I realised it was actually his mantra, and after 5 mins he would quiet down and get himself off to sleep.
-
This is SOOO good to know. It's amazing how much they change! It helps me so much that your LOs are a bit older than mine. I am learning so much for the future. Thanks! BTW, I just wanted to share that our naps have been going much better. This morning she really didn't "cry" at all. She wailed a few times but then just talked to herself quietly the entire time. It did, however, take her 50 mins to go down so I think I may need to do a routine tweak. It's been taking her forever to go down lately and even though WIWO is working, since she's either OT Or UT, after THAT long she is angry at this point so I usually have to get her or she'll have a shorter nap.
I've been doing one nap these past few days since her initial morning nap refusal but now I think OT is creeping up and making it hard for her to go down. When did your LO's switch to 1 nap? Maybe it's still too early?
-
Tonight, Down in 6 minutes!!! YIPEEE! Just three yelps and then quiet. I walked over to the monitor thinking..."could it be, no noises...it's only been a few minutes" and right there before my eyes, a sleeping baby!
Yeah Mommies!!!
-
Oh that's great, Christine! So glad to hear it!! ;D ;D
I think I read your LO is about 14 months, right? What is her current routine? It sounds like you could definitely use a routine tweak if it's taking her so long to go down for a nap, since she seems to be doing well with WIWO. All that time rolling around and talking happened to my LO a lot during the 2-1 transition when the timing was off. My DD didn't fully switch over until about 17.5 months and even after that she's had a few 2 nap days when teething and having a long NW or a quite early EW.
It's hard for me to remember what I did at exact ages, but most people opt for that shorter morning nap, which turns into a CN, and then a long afternoon nap. They're all different depending on their sleep needs, but if she's handling a few one nap days, then I would think a morning CN would probably be all she needs.
It might go something like this (or this is similar to what we did):
Wake 6:45 am
Nap 1 10:00 am - 10:20/10:30 am
Nap 2 1:15/1:30 pm - 3:00/3:30 pm
Bedtime 7:00 pm
Many people also switch back and forth between one and two nap days for a good while before fully going to one nap. So, you can do one nap for a day or two or three and then when you notice she's seeming a bit OT, like now, or if she wakes early due to a little OT, do a two nap day. It takes a little flexibility, but really I think it's the best way, unless you have a child that can forge through OT pretty handily. Mine doesn't at all, so I need to be pretty careful with it.
HTH!!
-
Oh that's AWESOME!!! Congrats!! See it DOES work!!! :) :) :) :) :) :)
Mine lo#1 only just went down to 1 nap at 23 months. But that's VERY VERY VERY VERY late! She's a VERY high sleep needs lo!! VERY high sleep needs! She's had back to back bouts of teething (very late) allergies and some other illnesses and ear infections which have exhausted her. So she's just making it now to one nap right before two years old.
-
Hi Ladies,
Thanks for sharing. Before the chaos occurred (well actually before I got off work for the summer) Sophie was on the following schedule:
5:30 wake
9:40-10:10 Nap
2:00-3:15 Nap
7:00 BT
Then last Friday everything went haywire and when my husband put her down for her nap, she play around and never ended up going down. So, the following day we put her down a bit later at 10:00 and it still took her over thirty minutes to go down, but that was also SA involved. So the past several days have looked like this:
5:00 Wake (which is a tad bit earlier than usual I think due to OT)
10:00 (I put her down for a nap but she won't go down until 10:50 or 11:00)
11-1220 (one day she slept for an hour, another day for only 40 minutes and today for 1.20)
5:30 BT (which i know is super early but I had to to prevent crazy OT)
The odd thing is NO NWs which used to occur when she was OT. The only thing is a bit earlier morning wakings. It's so odd how they can still be OT even though she gets so much more night sleep on the one nap. She'll get 12 or even 13 hours but on two nap days because her day is so stretched out sometimes she only gets 10 hours.
* Do you think I should try going back to the old schedule given her WIWO is getting better now?
* Or should I plug along and keep trying the one nap days in hopes that her nap will lengthen?
Thanks Ladies!!!!!!!
-
Well . . . that's a hard call, since she is sleeping longer nights, but I do think she's OT and if you continue to push she might not keep sleeping through. Plus, you'll eventually want that one nap to happen later in the day, and it's really hard to get there with a 5:00 am wake. But, I'm speaking from my experience, so I could be wrong. Also, as my LO got older, she didn't necessarily wake at night due to OT, she would just wake earlier in the morning.
I think you have a couple options. You could try going back to your old schedule, but with a little tweak. Maybe add on 15 min to the morning and see if that helps or cut the morning nap to 20 min instead of 30 (but if it's getting her down that's the problem, then adding on time would be more likely to solve it). You've gone from a 4 hr 10 min A to trying for a 5 hr A (but getting an almost 6 hr A), which is a huge jump, and her taking a long time to go down seems like OT to me. Or, you could reverse and keep trying that longer A, but then also try an afternoon CN in hopes of getting a later bedtime and thus a later wake-up. This seems kind of strange, though, since she was doing a shorter morning nap before.
If you do keep trying one nap days, I'm sure it will eventually lengthen, but she is on the younger side of the 2-1, and a 5:00 am wake-up is a hard place to start trying for one nap. If it were me, now that she's doing better with WIWO, I'd at least try going back to the old routine and see if it works; then you'll have a little more confidence moving forward. Does that make sense?
-
Hi Katie,
Great advice. I agree with you. Maybe she doesn't need a schedule tweak and it was just SA and the change in my work schedule that threw her off. I will go back to two naps tomorrow and see how things go. I"m thinking if she's still fighting the nap after 3-4 days then I'll try to increase A time a bit.
Good call! Thanks!!
-
Hi Ladies,
I was just wondering, in your experience, how long did it take before your LO stopped screaming when you first put them down. I am having more luck at BT than for naps. Was that the case for you? This morning I tried to get her back on a 2 nap schedule because it is really obvious that she is super OT from previous 1 nap days. Here was my attempt:
5:00 Woke up for the first time, then I think she went back at some point until 6:15, but not sure for how long as I was sleeping...
1010-1030(I put her down at 930 since she seemed fussy and tired before then. She screamed louder than usual and then fell face forward and hit her face against the railing and her tongue started bleeding so I went in picked her up and cuddled her. I just let her sleep on me for 20 minutes as it was so late already. Maybe I shouldn't have done that but she was hysterical from falling.)
200 (I just put her down for her second nap and she is screaming on and off again).
* Was it harder to get good naps with WIWO, moreso than bedtime?
* How do you get a super OT baby to get back on track?!
* It's hard to time her now because before I would just put her down 10 minutes before I wanted her to go down, now I don't know when to put her down because she'll put up a fight for over 30 minutes and then she's OT...
Not sure how to proceed...
Thanks so much!
-
Hmmm . . . tough questions, Christine! Hopefully, you'll get more answers than just me, but I'll definitely try to help!
So, naps have always been harder for my DD than bedtime. But, I think since Sophie has had success, that means the timing still might be off. It's hard to know on the morning you gave us, since she was in and out of sleep a bit. What was the last successful A time you had? I'd try to stick with that as much as possible. Or, what I've done in the past is really watch my LO for a few days in a row at the time I think she might be ready and then I can usually get a pretty good feel for it. But, sometimes their cues can be pretty hard to read at this age. This doesn't sound like much help at all, sorry!
I do think she's OT though, as she seems to be having a hard time with most A times you try. What I've done in the past to get out of OT is drive my LO around for naps for a few days. It means I have to give up some of my plans for the day, but when she's really stuck in it, it's been one of the only things that has helped. So, I would drive her for an hour in the morning around 9:30 am and then again in the afternoon around 2:00 pm. Now, my DD has always slept in the car, so it's something that works for me, it may not for you. And it's something I always hesitate to suggest, because it really seems like you're giving up everything to get a LO to sleep and also kind of a silly thing to do (like frowned on, iykwim). I guess, what I'm saying is to take this advice with a grain of salt! But, it has worked for me, and I've found that the car isn't really AP for my LO (meaning she doesn't get stuck on it, so once she's not OT, she goes back to sleeping on her own easily).
Otherwise, I think you just plug along with WIWO and maybe try somewhat set naptimes, so she gets used to it and starts getting the sleep she needs. ???
Another thing I wondered is if there are any signs of teeth coming in. My DD got her molars between 15.5 and 17 mo and she is a bit of a late teether, so it could be that Sophie is starting to work on those. Does she have any molars yet, or can you see anything back there in her mouth? It just seems like she's having a hard time, so I'm wondering if something else is bothering her.
Also, wanted to say I would have definitely gone and cuddled my DD if she had hit her face on the railing and her tongue started to bleed. We still need to comfort them when they need it! Poor little thing! :'(
Sorry this got kind of long, I hope something in here helps. How did the weekend go?
-
I agree with Kaite! Comforting is always okay when they need it!! Its crucial that we comfort our lo's when they need us. And busing her face was painful I'm very sure of it!!
Like Katie, when our lo#1 was terrible OT and unable to settle we did some car napping. At Sophie's age I would do the morning nap in the car and then do the afternoon in the crib. This helped us as well. If she was ill sometimes I would do both in the car. That being said............... I would not do it very long as our LO would get used to it and refuse the crib after too many days of it. I guess it really depends on your lo. You know her pretty well. So I would use your best judgement. I also did this on our 2-1 transition. I'd give a small cat nap in the car and then the longer one in the crib.
I'm with Katie wondering about teeth too. I've been told that SA comes along with teeth and I now totally agree!! It seems for us when she's teething we have cycles of OT and a little SA (until now and its pretty major due to all the changes lately).
Yes we are the same here, naps are atrocious and bt is no biggie most of the time. I think with touchy/spirited kids they wear their selves out so much that at the end of the day they are too exhausted to fight it. LOL!!
You know her best but you might try going back to some 2 nap days. Especially on the days she seems exhausted. Also if you do find she's teething she might need a am catnap for a while before she's able to totally drop the 1st nap. My lo's A time decreases greatly when teething.
I would also try some early bt's to catch her up. And if she plays for 20-30 min before going down that's fine. At least its some quite time for her. If she screams I'd do wi/wo.
-
I'd give a small cat nap in the car and then the longer one in the crib.
Yep, done this too, even up to as recently as a month ago! That helps my LO during teething if she's had a long NW or quite early EW. But when she was really OT, I didn't even chance it, just took her in the car. I know the back roads around my town pretty well. :-\
-
Hi Ladies,
Awe...what a good idea about the car. Unfortunately, my touchy daughter despises her carseat and often times a 15 minute car ride to the store results in extreme fussiness and tantrums. =(. Hmm...I need to figure something out. I even tried to AP her a bit in my bed today with nursing but she just doesn't sleep well anywhere else other than her bed unfortunately. Today I tried putting her down a little earlier with her a.m. nap because she's obviously OT. It took her 1 hour to go down!!! Although, the screaming is getting much better because when I put her down she went down without one single peep for an entire hour! I was so happy. Our day looked like this:
515 Woke up, went back down until 6ish.
10:15-1:30 (I put her down at 9:15 originally but she played and stood around until an hour later. Weird thing is she was fussy and rubbing her eyes before this which is why I put her down earlier, but once she went into bed it seemed like she wasn't tired at all!)
3:00 Tried putting her down again and she wouldn't have it. She usually doesn't like going down for naps later than 2:30 or so. I think it's in her internal clock so I just picked her up after trying for a while and did an early BT
5:15 BT
The good thing that you helped me with is that she went down without screaming all 3 times! Now, it's just a matter of getting her to go to bed faster. Because it takes SOOO long for her to finally take her morning nap, it throws the whole day off...I just want to get her back on track. Will try again tomorrow...
-
Well you have one victory! That's great!!!! :)
How does she do on one nap days? If you just hold out on the nap a bit then do a early bedtime if she wakes early?
-
Oh, she is a touchy one, huh! Glad to hear she's not screaming anymore, isn't that nice!!
So, here's what I see in what you posted about yesterday. How long was she awake at 5:15 am? If it was not long, then really 6 am was your wakeup and the 9:15 am nap was probably a little early, hence the quiet playing. But then, at 10:15 am (so a 4 hr 15 min A), you got a really long nap, and it's not surprising she didn't go down for another CN in the afternoon.
What I would try then, is either stick with the longer nap and push it out a little every few days as ahk has suggested, or go with the morning CN (for probably 20 or 30 min) at about 4 hr or 4 hr 15 min A, and then do your afternoon nap about 3 hrs after waking. How does that sound?
I even tried to AP her a bit in my bed today with nursing but she just doesn't sleep well anywhere else other than her bed unfortunately.
And I'd be really careful with this. If she's not ill or teething, every time I AP my DD (other than the car rides), she expects the same thing next time and I'm stuck doing WIWO again. I really think this is just a case of finding the right times now that she's got the settling down again!
-
Yes I'd be careful with bfing as a ap if she's not ill or teething. Even then I'd be very careful. I know from my experience this is the hardest ap to break. As its so comforting and lo's start to demand it every time. :(
I'm with Katie. I think getting her A times better might help out. I think since you've got her settling by herself, just some tweaking the A times.
-
Oh btw I think this was about the time when my lo's sleepy signs were a bit different and became harder to read. What about pushing back her A times a little and seeing how she does?
-
Hi Ladies,
I think you are onto something! I will have to try it tomorrow. Last night we had the first NWing in 4 months!! She couldn't resettle herself so she cried and I finally went in there and picked her up to cuddle her and give her Tylenol as I thought maybe something is hurting her. I really DO think something is off. It's either teething or ear infection and I'm actually going into the doc today to see if it IS ear infection. After the short cuddling and Tylenol, I put her back in bed and she fought sleep and cried for another hour and finally went down after 2.5 hours of being up! I think this is either from pain or from being SO OT... She was then up at 450 a.m. and though I left her in there to whine until 6 she never went back to sleep so I got her up.
I opted to put her down early since she had been up since 450 so I put her own at 9 and she went to sleep in 5 minutes, so the timing was right because she was obviously tired. Since she barely had any night sleep, I let her sleep for however long she wanted:
450 Wake
905-1025
145 (tried putting her down and it's now 2:20 and she's still stop/start crying and whinining.)
I think that even though I want to try to get her OT caught up by letting her sleep maybe I just need to wake her after 30 minutes in the a.m. and let her have a long p.m .becuase I"m finding it's really hard to determine her A time after a long nap in the morning. She keeps fighting her p.m. nap...
Do you think this is a good plan? Not let her catch up on sleep in the a.m. but rather in the p.m.? It's hard to judge right A times when she's OT...
Thanks Ladies, you are helping me so much!
One thing that is so frustrating is that she will just stand in the corner of her crib and just stop/start cry for a VERY long time. I literally sat in tears last night because after the Tyelnol she was crying hard but it was cry and stop and cry and stop so i never really went back in until she feel asleep after an 1.5 hours...I felt SO bad because she was crying but it wasn't a consistent cry...I hope i figure out her A soon and get this resolved..it's painful to see her this way.
Thanks.
-
I think its very good that you are taking her to the dr to rule out any ear infections and such! I had some similar trouble with lo #1 a few months back and it was a ear infection. So you are doing the right thing!!
You might try limiting her morning nap to 30 min to see if you can get a more restorative longer nap in the pm. Give it a try tomorrow and see how it goes. I would not limit her pm nap. Just let her get whatever amount of sleep she needs!
This OT cycle is horrible to break. Especially if there's ear infections or teething involved!
I don't know how your lo acts with pain but I'm wondering if that's not the case. How does your lo act with ot nw'ings? Is it brief? Every lo is different. My lo's OT NW'ings are pretty short and its basically a party in her crib. She talks and sings, plays with her stuffed animals exc......... But if its pain or something else its screaming, ,crying exc....... Now she does cry if she cant get back to sleep if its a OT NW'ing but that's after a while of talking and singing. If its a pain nwing its no talking but just crying and screaming.
Maybe you can think back to some pain nwings and ot nwings to differentiate the difference.
Also if its pain you might try motrin (ibuprofen) as this is a great pain reliever and also a anti-inflammatory. I think it works WAy better than tylenol for ear infections and teething.
You know your lo better than anyone so make sure first to rule out pain.
Good luck and let us know how the Dr apt goes!!
-
Hi ALK,
Thank you so much for caring! We just got back from the doc and it looks like there is no ear infection. She is completely healthy in fact so the DR thinks that it might indeed be teething. She just got her top right tooth and her left one looks a bit swollen so I'm thinking it's just that...
I finally picked her up after 50 minutes of crying and fighting her p.m. nap and took her into the car to see if maybe a miracle would happen =); but, no luck. She just plays and whines in the carseat so I put her down for a super early 5 a.m. BT. Tomorrow I will definitely just wake her after 30 minutes in hopes to go back to our old schedule. Boy do I miss those two naps!!
Regarding her NWing, now that you had me reflect on it, I DO think it's pain related as she usually goes back on her own no problem. The other thing I was thinking too is that she woke from a bad dream maybe? I've read that this age group tends to have dreams and it seemed like she suddenly woke and just started screaming from there, whereas usually she'll whine, roll around and go back after 10 minutes or so. I've never had to go in at night after she turned a year. The thing that is really difficult is that it's VERY hard to get her to go back down when she does wake at night for any reason. When she wakes up, if I need to go in and comfort for pain, I will usually pick her up and rock her until she is completely asleep on me but the minute I put her down (since she is touchy) she wakes up screaming. So, in the past, when she was sick, I would do this over and over and over again and every time I put her down she would wake.
While I know that we shouldn't WIWO when they are sick, that was the only thing i could do (and GW) in order to get her to go back to sleep otherwise I would be holding her to sleep all night. That's the only tough thing is that she's so sensitive and anything wakes her so it's tough to get her to go down comfortably without the crying.
I wonder what other mommies with sensitive babies do. When they're sick, I want to AP and cuddle her to sleep but I can never get her to stay asleep unless its in my bed with me.
I will keep my fingers crossed for tomorrow's schedule. Also, Katie, I think you have a good point about when she goes back to sleep in the morning it may be restorative enough to increase her A time. Usually I think she is up for 15 minutes and goes back down for 15-20 minutes. This week I will just get her up when she first wakes up to get her back on track because when she falls back asleep it's hard to judge her A time. Is she still tired from initially waking at 5 or did she get enough rest to count it as 6? You know?
Thanks again Ladies. You have been soooo encouraging!
-
Glad to hear she doesn't have a ear inf!! That's wonderful! Sounds like teething. :(
Have you tried motrin instead of tylenol? I also use orajel at night as its a INSTANT pain reliever. And it gives my lo's enough time (of pain relief) for the motrin to kick in and help them stay down.
TBH my lo #1 is sooooooooooooo touchy/sensitive sounds just like yours!! She will NOT let us do GW its impossible. What I do when its teething or some type of pain is to comfort and treat with meds at night by:
Teething: give motrin and apply a coat or two of orajel. Then I hold her and sing her lullaby next to the crib. I try to lay her down after 1 minuet. If she holds on and won't let me I then will hold her and sing it for 2-3 minuets and then try to lay her down. Usually she will go right back in after the orajel b/c it immediately numbs the pain. If she won't then I give a little more comfort. If after 20 minuets she won't go back in I do a gentle wi/wo approach with her. I lay her down even though crying and hold my hand on her for a few seconds, then I walk out. If she needs me I go back and tell her I love her and the meds will kick in soon to help her. I lay my hand back on her back. I do that trying to do more verbal comforting. If she gets beside herself and I know its pain I just sit back (only happened once in her whole life) in a rocker and let her doze off on me. And YES she wakes when I lie her back down, it becomes a vicious cycle. :(
If its a ear infection: I give motrin and use numbing ear drops. They take 5-8 minuets to relieve the pain so I stay with her for that time if she needs me. I hold her next to her crib and sing to her during that time.
With all that said, I always try to immediately lay her down after giving meds. I only hold a little longer as described if she needs it. And sometimes after teething/illnesses I have to use wi/wo to get her back on track. :( She's just soooooooooooooooooooooo touchy/spirited.
You might put a pallet on the floor if she won't go down after the meds and let her lie with you if she's in severe pain. This would of course be a last resort for sure. I would NOT bring her to bed with you if you can prevent it. Touchy babies get very addicted to this and its terrible to break!! I let my lo#1 nap with me in my bed during her last ear infection and it was HELL trying to break it!!!!!!!!!!
-
Sorry it's so tough for you, Christine! I do think it's probably a combination of OT and teething, and it's hard to break out of that sometimes.
So, yesterday, again because she slept 1 hr 20 in the morning, I think it was too early to put her down at 1:45 pm and that's what made the afternoon nap a struggle. I think you can go back to the 30 min morning nap and then let her sleep as long as she wants in the afternoon, like ahk has suggested. Or, what I sometimes did was go for an hour in the morning and an hour in the afternoon, to help catch up from OT. So, whatever the morning A was, seemed to work again for my LO after an hour nap.
Wake: 5 am
Nap: 9:00 - 9:30 am
Nap: 12:30/12:45 - 2:30/2:45 (or whenever)
Bed: 6:30 pm
OR
Wake: 5 am
Nap: 9:00 - 10:00 am
Nap: 2:00 - 3:00 pm
Bed: 7 pm
I also have a LO who will wake at the second of being put down if she falls asleep on me in the middle of the night. And before doing WIWO recently, during her molars and incisors, there were a couple nights she was up 3 hrs or ended up sleeping with one of us on the couch. :P Not fun. What I do now, is much like ahk has described. Go in, give meds, cuddle for a bit, sing our bedtime song, and lay her back down. I then proceed with WIWO. It usually works well (i.e. not much crying after the BIG one to get me to stay with her ::)), and now during canines, she knows what will happen, and is usually back to sleep within 20-30 min of waking.
However, when she was ill, I would rub her back or put my hand on her to just give her that extra help. So, if you're really feeling she needs it, I would try that or lying down next to her crib (either with her or without), before bringing her into bed. Of course, you will do what you think is best for her and you, and we will support you either way, but after being there, I think both of us know it's harder to get out of some of that AP.
It's so tough to hear them cry, I know. What I always repeat to myself is that 'she needs the sleep, she needs the sleep' and with me doing some sort of AP, she just doesn't get the same quality sleep she needs.
Let us know how your day goes today! Hoping for the best!
-
Update! So, I think it was definitely teething. I gave her some meds this morning as she woke up very fussy and after 40 minutes, she was playful and back to her old self. I think her top front tooth is trying to break through. She was playing happily and then I tried putting her down at 9 a.m. This is what our morning schedule looked like:
455 a.m. Wake
9:00 Tried putting her down. She stood up screaming in the corner of the bed and again is standing with intermittent wailing and whining. I have not gone in because again she'll wail and then whine on and off. Yesterday she went down right away at 9 a.m. but it's also because she was up for 3 hours in the middle of the night so she was obviously tired. Today, she's fighting her morning nap again and I'm wondering if it's just a fluke or if it means she needs more A time (9:30)? maybe. It's been 45 minutes and I am about to go in and get her and try again later.
Not quite sure a this point since she's had pain meds, she lay on me during wind down but popped right back up the minute I set her down...Yesterday she was completely quiet every time I put her down in her crib...
Hmmm...
-
Wow this is a tough one!! Maybe a little more A then?
If my lo isn't in pain and I have her A time off a little she usually plays for a bit before she drifts off. So I'm guessing teething is probably the case. I know you've said before that she will happily play, sing or talk to herself for a bit before drifting (if A time is slightly off).
Have you tried a teething gel? I'm a HUGE fan of them as they are immediate.
-
I think a teething gel is worth a try, especially since you'd given the meds after she woke up. There wasn't enough time in between to give more meds, but they could've been starting to wear off. ??? My LO does NOT like the gels and it turns into a big game with her and I never get them in the right place anyway, but I know a lot of people who like them.
And now that you're pretty confident it's teeth, I'd try to give her some other type of relief (i.e. a cold washcloth to chew on or an ice cube in one of those little mesh bags) during the morning and save the pain meds for about 45 min before a nap. That way, she has the best chance of being comfortable at that time.
As far as the A time goes, you could be right that she went down better yesterday because she'd been awake so long at night. I'd only try adding on 15 min though, not 30, that seems like a little too much for her age. I still think around 4 hr to 4 hr 15 min is probably best for her.
-
It's been a tough day ...sigh...
Yesterday, she refused every nap I tried to put her down for. Before each nap I gave her Motrin about 40 minutes before but I think it's teething+SA+ OT all rolled up in a very big ball. Finally for the third nap refusal, DH picked her up and held her to sleep for 115 minutes. I told DH that this could create a habit, but he said she really needed some type of sleep. Then she went down for BT completely quietly and awake. I dont' get it. She never fights BT but naps are horrid!
Last night she ended up fall asleep at 7:30 p.m. but woke at 4:30 a.m. and whined until I got her at 5:30. She had a fever of 103, yesterday it was 102 fever but the doc said it was prob related to teething and just give her Motrin which worked. So today, I gave her motrin in the a.m. again but she was still fussy really with the motrin. I am going to buy orajel today.
5:30 Wake
9:30 Try ot put her down for a nap and it's 1010 and she's still fighting it. Up until now, I have NOT had to go back in because it's always start stop but this morning it was quite bad so I counted 10 seconds and walked in to say my phrase. She went ballistic. She started shaking the railings and hopping up and down frantically. I kept going in after another 10 seconds only if it was continuous. I knew she had pain meds, but she just really wanted me. Plus I think it was bad because I never went in before, it was always my DH that did it.
DH thinks WIWO won't work after hearing her frantic this morning, so he thought I should go in and sit there like GW again but I think since she knows how to go down, I don't htink I should change it.
I have never had her SO off before. I'm trying not to get into the hump of AP, and am trying to give meds and still keep same routine but it's tough. She just stands in the corner and if i don't go in it will be whining and stop start crying for an hour until I get her EVERY TIME! If I DO go in, she still stands but is much more frantic and shaking hte bed.
I don't know how to make it better and just want to cry.
-
Oh, I also wanted to mention that I think it's SA related and not so much the time being off persay because this morning whilst getting her ready for her nap she almost fell asleep! So, I know she was tired enough the but the minute i put her into bed, she fought like crazy. She's just fighting her nap and wanting me..
-
Oh this is no good. I remember this! Exactly as it happened for close to a month with me. It was OT, SA and terrible teething + ear infection. It was the worst tornado ever!! Plus baby lo here too. DH would come home every night and I would be crying. It was VERY rough! I think the hardest thing since she's been born! And she was a very difficult baby.
A couple things.
#1 I was told by my lo's dr that anything over 100-101 is not teething and is another illness. (virus or bacterial inf)
#2 tylenol reduces fever better than motrin, but motrin is better for pain (according to Dr)
#3 I think you are in the midst of terrible SA along with other things that make her want you more. When we were having terrible SA my lo went down easily for bt b/c she was so exhausted she just passed out once her head hit the sheets (after avoiding naps all day). So that's normal. Naps are hell but bt's seems better. I'm not sure of your schedules, but anytime DH can put her down its usually better. My lo would go down for anyone but me, she just wanted to be with me so badly.
I've had DD fall asleep behind me and a rocking chair while I was nursing lo #2 (minuets after refusing a nap). I've had her fall asleep on my bed while I was trying to get her to have some quite play if she would not nap. (these were both instances during that terrible time) And the minuet I'd lay her in her bed she's go bonkers and wake up screaming refusing to go back to sleep.
This would be much easier if she would fall asleep in the car so you could AP at least one nap a day without her getting 'addicted' to it and demanding it each time. If this goes on for much longer and she gets much more OT or is getting sick you might start thinking about a GW. I know that's the LAST thing you want to hear!! Trust me! I KNOW!! My lo will NOT do any gw, so its not a option here. :( But if she's truly sick and is getting out of control with the OT you might have to do some type of GW and just wean it after she's better and the SA is fading away.
I'd get some orajel on there to see if that can provide her a little relief. TBH I'm wondering if there isn't in fact something else going on with her. If her ears are clear than that's not it. Has she been coughing, colored mucous or any other symptoms other than fever?
What is her schedule like? Is she with sitters or nursery during the week? What's DH's schedule like? Just wondering so I can help you figure out how to help her get through this a bit quicker.
-
Oh another thing I did A LOT of during this phase (we are still in it a bit but on our way almost out of it now, THANK GOD!) is use my words to comfort as much as possible.
I'd use LOTS and LOTS of warnings that nap time is coming up. I'd keep repeating it for about 30 minuets before she was to lay down. 'we will play for a few minuets then its lunch then nap time with bearbear.' ' we are eating lunch now then after lunch its nap time with bearbear'. 'we are cleaning up lunch now then its diaper change and nap time with bearbear' ' we are changing your diaper now so we are headed up stairs for nap with bear bear'. ' its nap time, here's your bearbear, I love you and mommy will come and get you when nap time is over'. Then I'd begin wi/wo with 'its just nap time, mommy is still here and will come and get you when its over' exc........
I try to tell her that mommy loves her SOOOOOOO much and will always be back to get her when we are apart.
She used to panic and follow me around freaking out about wanting to be held constantly exc........ I really gave her SOOOOOOOOOOOO much reassurance for over a month. I carried her and baby LO up and down the stairs, room to room exc........... Then my knees started hurting from it all and I was emotionally exhausted from constantly being OVER THE TOP with the reassurance. I told her that mommy's knees hurt and we'd have to hold hands around the house and up and down the stairs but Mommy would LOVE to sit down on the couch or floor and hold her for lots of cuddle time. I did extra cuddle time often until she didn't need it as much and became more disinterested.
Let us know how its going so we can help you!! :)
And take care of yourself during this phase. Its a VERY rough one!!!
-
So sorry, Christine! Lots of (((hugs)))!! A few things pop out at me when I read this. (Ok, ahk posted while I did, and I think we have some similar advice, but I'm still going to post in case anything helps. Sorry it's so long!)
Finally for the third nap refusal, DH picked her up and held her to sleep for 115 minutes. I told DH that this could create a habit, but he said she really needed some type of sleep. Then she went down for BT completely quietly and awake. I dont' get it. She never fights BT but naps are horrid!
I know we've been encouraging you to be careful with the AP, but I tend to agree with your DH here. She must be sooo tired! It's really a bummer you can't drive her around for a few days, because this sounds exactly like what we went through with my DD at Christmas time. It was right before she got her molars and I had tried a couple one nap days because I just didn't know what else to do, so she got really OT. We were up at my ILs for the week and she would scream every time I put her in the crib for a nap, so we'd end up taking her out for a drive. But, when I went to lay her down for BT, she went in like a charm and was asleep within minutes. It really is strange! But I think that nap Sophie got with your DH was enough to take just the edge off the OT, so she went down well for BT.
5:30 Wake
9:30 Try to put her down for a nap and it's 1010 and she's still fighting it.
So, this is really OT refusal, I think, because she had really been up since 4:30 am. And with the missed naps yesterday and a short night, the OT is just building up. With teeth (+ a little OT), when I'm off by just 15 min with my DD, she can have a hard time settling. It happened last night at bedtime (took 30 mins of on/off screaming, mantraing) and today at nap (took 15 mins of the same). It's so hard to go through, and I kick myself for getting her in bed late, but sometimes no matter how hard I try, she is able to drag it out a little. ::) I think I would have tried to put her down more at 8:30 or 8:45 am here. Because she has had a couple naps here and there that have been successful, I do think she can do it.
I knew she had pain meds, but she just really wanted me. Plus I think it was bad because I never went in before, it was always my DH that did it.
DH thinks WIWO won't work after hearing her frantic this morning, so he thought I should go in and sit there like GW again but I think since she knows how to go down, I don't htink I should change it.
So, I think you have a couple options at this point. I really don't think it should matter who is doing the WIWO; she may have to get used to you doing it, but if you're consistent, it should be fine. However, if she is really struggling with her teeth and a fever and SA, then I might be tempted to try GW. Yes, I know she does know how to do it, but she's having a really tough time and it's been at least a week with not much improvement. My DD doesn't do well when I'm in the room, even if she's frantically screaming for me. Once I'm there she just wants to interact and it makes the whole process longer. But, it may be worth a try in your case. I think she's taking so long to settle because she's pretty OT, but there are other things involved which makes it harder.
Lastly, you may just give in to doing whatever you can to get her some sleep for the next few days, even if it means some AP. If only the car would work for you, that's what I'd be doing for sure. I know this is probably anti-BW advice, but once she isn't so OT, I think she'll probably respond to WIWO (or GW for that matter) better. It may be harder when you start again, so it may not be worth it. But, she's got to be just extremely tired at this point.
-
After reading both of your posts, you brought me to tears. You have never even met me but have been such a support and I thank you for that.
ALK, you were right! After DH was saying it's teething, I knew it my gut that something else was wrong, like you said, so I took her to the doc again today. This doc looked in her throat which the other doc didn't and said that her throat was super red and that she has viral pharyngitis. This explains so much, the fact that she stands and whines for SOOO long whereas she can usually settle herself after no more than 20 minutes or so. Also, she has been refusing fluids because I think it hurts her when she swallows and today her fever went up to 103.5.
After a rough morning...her day finally went like this:
4:30/5:30 Wake
1020-1035 Sleep (It took her an hour of my WI/WO to finally go down and then she had an OT nap. Katie you were right I should have put her down much earlier given the super early wake up.)
2:00-235 (I was praying the entire time while winding her down. I took her advice ALK and kept telling her it's sleepy with bear bear soon etc. She was so tired she knocked out. I was hoping for a longer nap but no such luck.)
555 BT (Went down right away)
I'm hoping we don't have super early wake ups tomorrow morning again so she can get more rest. The doc said she can't really give any meds since it's viral so we have to wait it out and give her Motrin for comfort. Tomorrow I will try the naps again and be more conservative if she has an early wake up, I will try to put her down much earlier. I think I will try to have DH do WIWO tomorrow as he's had success with it a few months ago when we first implemented it. She's not as attached to him as she is with me. I had NEVER seen her so frantic ever before like she was today when I walked in. I hadn't had to walk in all week due to the start/stop cry so when I did today she was freaking out. It sort of scared me a bit because I had never seen her like that before but then again my DD is very touchy and upsets easily. I remember GW working when she was much younger but after she turned 11 months she would just play peek aboo with us when we sat in the chair and told her to sleep. It was cute but very annoying =).
Okay, you Ladies gave me hope and it helps so much knowing exactly what's wrong. I think my plan of action will be this:
1) Try two naps again tomorrow, earlier a.m. nap if she wakes early. If need be, I will have DH go in and do WIWO.
2) If she refuses first nap and then second nap, I may have DH just hold her again for second nap to get SOME kind of sleep in so OT can calm down a bit especially if she wakes early again tomorrow. She's been having such short nights.
3) I may just need to cave in and let her sleep in our arms just to get caught up and then deal with the consequences of retraining her later if it gets to that. I don't know if I can handle this for several more weeks. I've been so emotional.
AHK, to answer your questions. My DH is a SAHD, he has been with her at home since she was born and I am a teacher so I would work during the day and come home and be the one to put her to bed at night. The crazy thing is before all this happened, she slept fairly well. She would always have two naps. Her schedule looked roughly like this:
5:30 Wake
9:40-1010 Sleep
2:00-3:15 Sleep
6:30/7:00 BT
It worked really well and she would only take maybe 20 minutes to go down at most for him. Then, I was off work for the summer break and everything changed. SA became really bad and I started to be the one to put her down for naps as opposed to my husband. I think this set her off because she wasn't used to spending so much time with me and then when I put her down she was thinking, "No, I want to spend more time with you..." So that started the beginning of last week, and for the entire week it's taken her an hour or so to go down. I'm wondering if her illness gradually started around then and is full blown now although she really didn't develop the high fever until yesterday. She would just whine and stand in the corner like I had mentioned in all my posts, which is soo odd. Almost like she is fighting sleep and wants to wait for the hour until I come in to get her.
However, now I'm not sure if she is waiting for me or if is really is just not feeling well because of her throat. She does tend to be more clingy when she's not feeling well.
I'm just praying htat after she feels better, she will start sleeping again and that this is just a phase due to illness. I'll keep my fingers crossed. Now, my DH and I are both at home all day with her, so that is a big change for her too.
Thanks again!!!
Christine
-
Christine,
I'm so glad Katie and I could help you! We've both been there and done that. ;) Its soooooooooooo hard and frustrating when your in the midst of it.. and can't figure out what to do.
The reason I thought something else was going on is b/c she was acting the same as my lo a month back. This is very hard....... Illness, SA, OT and teething. Its QUITE the perfect storm I can assure you!
I would give motrin to keep her comfortable as you are doing. I would also try to keep her hydrated to prevent a hospital trip. With high fevers they can dehydrate very fast. I would get the pedilyte popcycles. My LO loves them, she either eats them whole or I cut them up and put them in a sippy cup. One time she was so delirious I had to feed it to her with a medication syringe. :( If she gets near 103 again I would cool her down with a bath or wet wash cloth bath (my dad is a dr and says when it gets to 103 it can be very dangerous to the brain of a child). I would also rotate the tylenol (along with the motrin) if her fever is high. As tylenol is better at reducing fever, but motrin is better at pain reduction/anti inflammation. Honey is very helpful to the throat (if she's over a year old) to soothe it. Try to keep her comfortable/hydrated and she'll do just fine.
Your plan sounds great!!! I think if you keep the structure you have planned and remain flexible she'll do just great!
I can REALLY relate to praying the WHOLE time during wind down!! LOL!! I've done that sooooooo many times!!!
Yes AP if you need to help her get some sleep she NEEDS it!!! But I would keep your plan first, hopefully it works out. You might be surprised. I would keep reminding her over and over and over again starting a hour before the nap. This seems to help my lo as she's VERY touchy.
She needs your comfort right now and if your plan doesn't work out you might have to AP some to get her recovered. :( And then deal with the reverberations after she's well. (ie. a good dose of wi/wo)
That's awesome your husband is able to be a SAHD. Its probably why she responds so well to him doing wi/wo. The SA is probably way worse b/c of how terrible she feels right now... and of course the change in your schedule. She probably LOVES you being home all the time, but being a touchy baby is very sensitive to change. I agree with you about her wanting to spend more time with you instead of being put down for a nap.
YES I think it is a phase due to her illness. She WILL start sleeping again! I promise! She has a great foundation of sleeping well and will return to it once she's better. I know I ALWAYS worry about this when we are in the midst of it with lo #1!!
Keep her hydrated, comfortable and try to make sure that fever is down! Get her some sleep and AP if you have to.
Keep us posted on how she's doing and if you need any help.
-
Ok, posted at same time as ahk, again! Great minds think alike! ;) Here it is:
Oh, poor little thing! ((Hugs)) to all of you!! I'm sure a tiny part of it might be the change of you being home, Christine, but really I think it's the illness and OT that's causing all the problems. :'( :'(
I think your plan is really good. It always makes me feel better to have a plan!! Definitely go with shorter A's because even if her night is not interrupted, she's still built up a lot of OT. And with meds, I think it's ok for your DH to try WIWO, but if it's more of the same, I really wouldn't hesitate to get her the help she needs to fall asleep right now.
She obviously is not feeling well and most likely NEEDS you! Think about how you would feel in that situation, you'd want some comfort too! (I'd go for lots of ice cream if it were me! ::)) But, LOs like the comfort of their parents. It's how they're wired! If it helps you feel better, up until just recently, if my DD truly needed the help, I never became a prop. She would go back to sleeping independently once she was better. And if Sophie doesn't, at least you'll know you helped her when she needed you and then you can retrain. I'm thinking it'll go much better once she's feeling better!
After reading both of your posts, you brought me to tears. You have never even met me but have been such a support and I thank you for that.
Awww, thanks Christine! That's what we're here for and why I love this site!! I'll be praying Sophie feels better soon!!
-
LOL!! Yes Katie, great minds do think alike!! :) :) :)
-
It worked! You were right! I put her down much earlier today for her a.m. nap seeing that she woke up at 445. I put her down at 850 and she was down quietly by 855. I think she just really doesn't do well if she's OT for bed especially if she doesn't feel well. Also, fever was much better this morning...101.3. I still gave her some Motrin before bed and gave her lots of liquids this morning. You were right AHK, she was so thirsty and probably on the verge of dehydration.
Also, an hour before bed, I kept telling her it's going to be bed time. I kept reminding her and even got her bearbear ready and told him that it would be HIS bedtime too. I think this really helped to prepare her. Before I thought she probably wouldn't understand, but she's very receptive now and the more repetition and preparation, I think, the better.
The only thing I'm not sure about is whether to let her sleep until whenever this a.m. or wake her after 30 minutes so that she'll sleep for the p.m. If I let her sleep until whenever now, I run the risk of her not going down for p.m. nap which will cause more OT once again. Hmmm...I think I may just wake her and then maybe give her 3:15 minute A time before next nap.
Thank you for all your great advice and for weathering the storm with me. I pray it will be a calmer day. I need some downtime!
Fondly,
Christine
-
Hi Christine,
So glad its going better!!! Katie is MUCH better at the whole A time thing then me. So maybe she can weigh in for you on what to do.
All I can say is my LO's can't handle as much A time when teething or ill. So we go with less A time, longer naps and earlier bedtimes. For instance we were on our way to lo#1's nursery (she goes 2 days a week for 5 hours a day) and she fell asleep at 9am! And this was after waking at 7:10am!! I just drove around and let her doze for 20 minuets before I dropped her off. She's teething her canines (worst teeth.. they are EVIL!) She went to bed at 6pm last night (usual bedtime is 7:30 on non teething/illness nights) she was screaming for her 'MILK' (which is her sippy of warm milk she has before bed). When she asks for this she's begging to be put to bed. :( So she had less than 2 hour A time and was already exhausted. That being said, I've got a high sleep needs lo #1. #2 doesn't seem as high needs.
When they are running even a slight temp their body is burning off a lot of the water/fluids you give them. So I always try to really hydrate them when they are running a fever, especially a high one!
Good job about communicating nap time. I know even though she's still so little they really get it. Especially if you get their lovey/stuffed animal involved. We used to tell her that bearbear is exhausted and so tired that he needs to take a nap. And she needs to help him take one. LOL!! It was so funny. She totally understood even at such a young age.
I'm sure today is going to be a better day!!! Take care of that sweet girl and yourself!! Enjoy your summer!! My Mom and sister-n-law are teachers. (mom is retired now) They really love it! Thanks for shaping the kids of this next generation.
Oh one more thing......... My lo#1 has been ill back to back and our pediatrician told us to start her on some pro-biotics. They help the body fight off bacterial or viral infections better and if they do get them.... its much shorter as their body fends them off faster. I don't know if your into health food type stuff, but this is great. She's been healthy ever since. I give her some tablets and lo #2 gets it in powder form in his rice cereal. They can be found in the childrens section at any health food store.
-
Oh, great news, Christine!! So glad she went down well this morning!! That OT is really a nap killer!! So, you've already made your decision about the nap, but I'll give my 'two cents'.
I think it will backfire at this point to let her sleep as long as she wants in the morning. It just seems so hard for you to get another nap in, and then it's an early BT, which just continues the cycle, iykwim. So, I think I've typed this before, but these are two options I did.
The first is basically what you already mentioned, 30 min am nap, followed by a 3 hr to 3 hr 15 min A, then nap as long as she'd like in the afternoon. So,
Wake 5:00 am
Nap 1 9:00 - 9:30 am
Nap 2 12:45 - whenever (hopefully 2:30 or 3:00 pm)
Bed Somewhere between 6 and 7 pm depending on pm nap.
The second option is to go for 2 one hour naps, which I felt was needed if my LO had had a long NW and the 30 min wouldn't do it for her in the morning. I didn't tend to go this route very often, but sometimes needed to, and it helped.
Wake 5:00 am
Nap 1 9:00 - 10:00 am
Nap 2 2:00 - 3:00 pm (or even 3:30 if you want)
Bed 7:00 pm (could be 6:45 pm if she only does the one hour nap or 7:15 if she does the 1.5 hour nap)
These will help you stretch the day out a little as well, so hopefully once she catches up and feels better, she can start to sleep a little longer in the morning.
I think you're doing a great job with communicating about nap time. I found around 14 - 18 mo, this really helped my DD prepare for transitions during the day, and it still does.
I hope the day is going better! Let us know how it goes! :-*
-
Yippeee!!! Two for two today. I took her advice of a short 30 minute and long p.m. nap and it worked. We'll see how long she sleeps but for now I am just thrilled that she went down quietly and RIGHT AWAY! I am going down for a nap myself now =). Thanks mommas!
-
Wow, what a great outcome. I am a BIG fan of the short am long pm nap. When we used to try it the other way around, too often he would skip the pm nap altogether and be a mess by mid afternoon.
-
Hi Ladies,
3 for 3. She had perfect naps and bedtime tonight. She was still really fussy today and in a lot of pain but the meds I gave her helped...It's so hard when they can't tell you what's wrong isn't it? I get frustrated and poor baby gets frustrated. Though I don't want her to grow up too fast, I will definitely be ecstatic when she can tell me what's wrong!
Thanks again,
Christine
-
Oh how great!!! 3 for 3 is fantastic!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Give her plenty of hugs and she'll start feeling better in no time. :)
Yes it is soooooooooooooo frustrating when they can't talk. :(
Keep us posted on how she's doing!!
-
Oh, Christine, that is GREAT news!! I'm so glad to hear it. ;D ;D I'd stick to that routine, then. When she starts to feel better and if it seems it's not working as well, then you'll just need to add a little A time, but slowly, so she doesn't get OT.
She's probably really close in the 2-1, but teething and illness can set them back a lot. I'd stick with the two as long as possible and try to push out your day a little, so hopefully she'll sleep a little longer in the morning, before going to one nap.
Keep us posted!!!
-
Yipee!! Another two good naps =). She whined a bit before going down, but went down in 3 minutes. We saw the doc again today and I guess the virus she has gave her a rash on her tummy which has made her itchy. I've been giving her benadryl which I think is helping a lot. Last night she had SUCH a hard time sleeping, I think due to the rash. The first hour after falling asleep easily was constant wake ups and whining. Poor baby, but she managed to go to sleep for the rest of the night.
Odd thing, she woke at 5:30 a.m. this morning which was great but at about 8:30 started showing really tired signs and even tried falling asleep on daddy's shoulder so I took a "risk" and put her down at 9 even though her usual A time in the a.m. has been 4 hours, but she was able to sleep after 10 minutes. I guess she's still catching up from all the former OT and plus she didn't sleep well last night.
Quick question: Yesterday looked like this:
4:45 Wake
855-930 Nap
1:05-155 Nap
550 BT
Even before all the nap refusal happened quite frequently her p.m. nap would be short like 40-50 minutes of 1 hour. I'm wondering why that is. Do you think it's too much A time. I have tried 3 hours A time after a 30 minute a.m. but she would refuse it. Or, maybe it's not long enough? Don't know if I need a tweak here to get a longer p.m. nap...
Thank you for your support! I can't wait until the virus is over and I have my happy baby back =).
-
TBH Christine, I'm not quite sure about the A times. Maybe someone else can help with that.
I'm still at a loss for it most times. LO #1 is teething canines like crazy. She woke at 6:45 am (after going to sleep at 5:30pm.. her usual bt is 7:30) and was screaming for a nap at 11am. She napped until 12:30 and would not go back down. She was already beside herself with exhaustion by 3:30, so I put her down at 5pm. So as you can see I have NO idea when they are sick or teething, how to figure A times. Plus all lo's have different sleep needs.
I think most lo's when they are ill or teething just need more sleep. So I typically go for earlier naps and earlier bt's. My LO's typically sleep until their 'set time' no matter what time I put them down (if they are needing more sleep).
She's going to be back to her old self in no time. :)
-
Ok, I'm not always that great with A times either, sometimes I think it's a little trial and error! But, I'll see if I can help.
So, two days ago, I *think* that pm nap was still a bit of an OT nap. And it's not surprising she looked so tired yesterday morning; when they start to catch up from OT, that is usually the case. You know, that old 'sleep begets sleep' phrase.
Even before all the nap refusal happened quite frequently her p.m. nap would be short like 40-50 minutes of 1 hour. I'm wondering why that is. Do you think it's too much A time. I have tried 3 hours A time after a 30 minute a.m. but she would refuse it. Or, maybe it's not long enough? Don't know if I need a tweak here to get a longer p.m. nap...
Here's what I'd try. Really keep that am nap to JUST 30 min. I notice the other day it was 35. It seems a bit insignificant, but at this point in the game it can make a BIG difference. So, you've tried 3 hr A time afterward, and she refused. How would you classify the refusal, did it seem UT, like she wasn't ready, or OT, like she'd hit her second wind or had a hard time settling? It can be really hard to tell at this age, so we may just have to try a few things out. Coming out of the illness, even right now, I'd try 3 hr A for a couple days and see what happens. Then, maybe we can get a feel for if we need to shorten it or lengthen it. How does that sound?
When she's better, you may even want to start a new thread to get a few more people to look and see if they can help you figure it out too. Or, the ladies in the 2-1 support thread might have some good insight on the whole UT/OT thing. The hard part is, each LO responds differently, so we can't always be sure. But, we'll get it figured out sooner or later. I'd say you definitely know how she acts when OT now, as that's what was happening the last week.
How did the rest of yesterday and today go?
-
Hello Ladies,
Yesterday she had 1.15 p.m. nap. I guess the A time worked as she napped well. Today again 3 for 3!
6 a.m. Wake (Yes! Mommy was very happy about this)
925-1000 Nap (Went down instantly right away! I thought she needed 4 hours A time but I guess she is tired from being sick and OT so 3.5 A time still works)
1:30-2:50 Nap (another long nap today!)
6:30 BT
Today it seems like 3.5 hours is the magic number. I can also tell that she's more tired than usual and she is definitely letting me know when she is ready to go down which is so nice. On an average day it's SO hard to tell whether she's ready for bed so it is really clock watching. Maybe the short p.m. nap has been resolved!
-
It is wonderful when they give sleepy signs!! I LOVE that... When they don't its so frustrating!! :(
SOOOOOOOOOOOoo glad she's doing better!!!
Christine, it was so many things in the workings. :( SA, teething, OT, illness That is a lot of things to really mess her up. Poor girl. She's beautiful!! I love the bathtub pic!!!!
Glad to hear she's doing better!!!!!! She'll be back on track in no time!! :)
-
Yay, Yay, Yay!!! So glad to hear it, Christine! And what a better wakeup, too!!
So, yeah, it does look like 3.5 hrs is about right. I was wondering yesterday after I wrote, if 3 hrs might be on the short side. Those sleepy cues are nice, for sure. She's obviously making up for some of that OT. Don't be surprised if they disappear again, though! But now you have some times to work from, which is good!
Keep up the good work!
-
Totally off the subject but do either of you ladies, or anyone else for that matter, remember sleepy cues of a 5 month old?? lo #2 has a ear inf AGAIN and I'm having trouble figuring out how long his A needs to be? Anyone remember how long your 5 month old A was normall or when ill?
Thanks!
-
You Ladies are like my little cheerleaders! I love it! 3 for 3 again and went down quietly each time! I feel SO much better I can't even tell you! We had family over this weekend and I was dreading having to do WIWO as MIL sometimes disagrees with BWing...
ALK--I can't completely remember TBH; however DD's sleep needs have always been on the high side and she has always been low on A time than what I saw on other threads. If I remember correctly it was somewhere around 2 hours to 2.5 hours. What was it before things went haywire? Maybe it's not A time but moreso the fact that he isn't feeling well, like in Sophie's case?
Have you tried posting on the baby nap thread? I got a lot of help from those ladies. It's so hard remembering isn't it when you are caught up in a specific age group. Sorry I can't be of more help. I've starting logging everything when Sophie turned 9 mos so I can remember for LO #2!
Good luck!
-
Oh so great she's doing good again!! That's wonderful!!! Yes I did do a thread but under general sleep.
So glad you are logging everything, this will be SOOOOOOOOO helpful with #2. But I'm sure they will probably have a different personality. But it will be wonderful as far as sleep times and such! :)
-
Anyone remember how long your 5 month old A was normall or when ill?
It is really hard to remember that far back, isn't it? ::) I'm pretty sure we were at about 1 hr 45 min - 2 hr in the morning and then maybe just a bit longer after that. My LO always had shorter than typical As in the morning, though, I think. And if he's ill, I'd go for the shorter side. You do think he struggles to settle when a little OT, right? So, that's another reason to stick to the shorter side as well. HTH!
We had family over this weekend and I was dreading having to do WIWO as MIL sometimes disagrees with BWing...
Christine, this is always a bit tough for me as well. Both mine and DH's parents seem to have forgotten a little bit that LOs need structure and routine and no matter what I try to explain to them it still doesn't really sink in. DH and I always have to remind each other that they're in such a different stage in life and they're just looking at it as enjoying their grandchildren. Sometimes, I just have to take their comments with a grain of salt and forge on with what I know is best for DD! I'm glad it went well for you!
-
And we're back to the screaming....
On Monday Sophie finally showed signs of getting better. Her viral rash went down, temperature was gone and I think she was finally feeling better. Like the both of you said, since she was sick, she went down like a dream and would go down within minutes of putting her down. Today was not the case.
545 Wake
9:45-10:15 tried putting her down at 930 and she bounced back up screaming. After 10 minutes of off and on, I sent DH in and he told her to lay down and after one try she lay down and went right to bed. Hmm...go figures.
1:50 Just put her down and she bounced back up and is screaming on and off now. My DH is not home so I'm dreading having to go in there because with me she screams even louder, jumps up and down and freaks out but I know I will have to if she keeps this up. It's dying down a bit now. It's more like shriek, stop, shriek, stop.
I'm wondering if this is just plain old SA again or if something else is going on! She just finished the illness and I am still recovering from that so I'm hoping that we're not entering something else new. The odd thing is her awake behavior is phenomenal. She's playful and happy and not fussy at all which makes me think this is just SA. She's not even scratching at all. I'm just so tired...
Christine =)
-
Ok, so I must share something very odd. Like I mentioned this morning after shrieking on and off my husband walked in, said his sleepy phrase and walked out and she immediately laid down and went to sleep within minutes.
For her p.m. nap, she started screaming again when I put her down and after 20 minutes, my DH came home earlier than expected so I had him quickly go in again and AGAIN after he said his sleepy phrase and walked out she immediately laid down and went to bed! Why is this? She listens to him but not me! This seems so weird to me, like she needed someone to go in and tell her what to do.
* Do you think this will become part of a routine, that dad needs to go in because I know I will be home alone with her at times.
* The other thing I'm thinking that maybe I need to up her A time a bit now that she is well, although up until today, she's been put down awake and has been fine for the 5-10 minutes until she falls asleep herself. Maybe she just needed a reminder today...not sure...
-
She never ended up going down. I thought she did was she laid there quiet after dad went in and then finally got up after 40 minutes and screamed again so I just went into get her. It was obvious she wasn't going to go to bed.
-
Yes when my DH goes to DD and tells her to lay down and take a nap, she actually does, or at least tries to. When I do she's frantic trying to get to me. I think it is SA to be honest. I've just become very firm with her. Give her TONS of love and cuddles when its not bed time (my lo is 24 months now, though) and stand my ground at naps. I will NOT get her out unless lots of time has passed and its obvious its not working (like teething or illness keeping her up). Like after 40 min's of not napping exc......
We are the comforters (mom's) and while Dad's can do it a bit, Mom's are much more comforting by nature. It could means she's teething again. DD is always very clingy to me and does what you are describing if she's not feeling well (ear infection, teething exc........)
Maybe shoot for a early bt? My dd went down for bed at 5:30pm tonight (normal is 7:30) these canines are exhausting her! Plus she got some really bad diarrhea I'm not sure what else is going on. :(
-
Awe poor baby. I'm sorry to hear she's not feeling well. It's so hard when they are not feeling well huh?! I think I just need to learn to accept that things will always be ever changing and that I can't fix it all the time. I think I get over upset when she doesn't sleep because it's almost as if I feel guilty that I'm leaving her there to cry, but like you mentioned we have to be firm for their own good. This will help me later on when I start disciplining her as well. I can't be wishy washy about it.
Does your DD still throw a fit when you go in there to WIWO or does it get better over time. I'm thinking maybe if she seems me more often then she won't be as upset..I haven't gone in THAT much overall so maybe when I went in last week she really wanted me to pick her up.
Thanks for your support all the time ALK. You are like a little angel that follows me from thread to thread =).
-
Yes I have a VERY hard time accepting that things are always changing and can't always be ideal. Now I'm having to learn to accept that X2 (now with ds as well). Its quite stressful as I can be a perfectionist and don't like that! :(
I've just decided that DD is old enough to accept that she HAS to nap or at least try. She's so touchy and its been such a struggle her whole life, tbh. So I just lie her down and that's that. If I have to do wi/wo I'll do it but I'm not getting her out unless its just a total loss. I've done wi/wo for a hour and a half before. grrrrrrrrrr. I hate that but its the only way I can establish that I'm the adult and she needs to at least try to nap when its time. TBH its really helped that I give her a constant count down to nap time. Like I said before I just keep telling her over and over again. I also remind her of how tired she is and its okay b/c we will be napping soon so she can rest.
I have always tended to be VERY soft on her. But now with lo #2 I don't have that luxury and she's just got to do what I say. I know that sounds rather firm but its the only stance that works for her.
Yes wi/wo does get better over time if you do it right and establish that she's got to do what you say. I think that's why it works so much better with men, b/c they are more apt to be less emotional about it and more like 'you just need to do it b/c I said so'. And we are the comforting ones who want to make sure they are okay exc.... And in the past them crying has always meant something was wrong. And it still does sometimes, but it also (at least for my DD) means she's not wanting to nap and wants me to cuddle her.
No prob for the support! Let us know how it goes.
-
Oh I forgot to tell you, with touchy kids its soooooooooooooooo hard. B/c once you do certain 'addictive' ap'ing they will never let you out of it. So tbh I have such a hard time when dd is ill or teething. :( I usually just do a hugely early bt if nap was a bust. Like tonight at 5:30pm!
-
Christine, good points on here by ahk, who I notice is Liana. Happy to know you, Liana! ;D
So, I think you are going to have to be firm with her. I don't know a lot about SA, but I do know it tends to rear its ugly head with teething, so that may be worth a check. But, you're right, you can't always have DH to fall back on because sometimes he won't be there.
My DH travels for work and is gone a lot at the beginning of the year. Well, one night came in about April and we realized that DD refused to have him put her to bed, because I'd been the only one to do it for about 4 months! Ooooops! ::) So, now, she'll go down with him fine if I'm gone, but if I'm in the house, it's always a no go. He'll be home much more the next couple months, so it's something we're going to work on.
So, I know where you're coming from, it's easier to go with what she knows, i.e. Dad telling her what to do, but I think it's best for all of you for her to learn to respond to you as well. Yes, WIWO is hard, and it has taken me well over an hour in the past as well, but you're right, it is for her own good. I always have to tell myself that in the heat of the moment!
* The other thing I'm thinking that maybe I need to up her A time a bit now that she is well, although up until today, she's been put down awake and has been fine for the 5-10 minutes until she falls asleep herself. Maybe she just needed a reminder today...not sure...
So, she might have just needed a reminder, but she also may need to up the A time as well. What has your routine looked like the last few days when she was going down quickly? It looks like right around 4 hr A is still about right in the morning. Then, you may need to go to 3 hr 45 min A after the 30 min morning nap. Another option would be to start cutting the morning nap shorter and bringing the afternoon nap up as well, but you still have a pretty early wake up, so it's probably not needed yet. HTH!!
-
Hi Katie,
Thanks for the insight. I know what you mean about needing to teach her to listen to BOTH of us. When she became sick and we were having good naps, this is what we were doing:
5:30 or even 6:00 wake ups sometimes (but she would still a.m. nap I think because she was sick and needed it)
9:30-10:00 Nap
1:30-2:50 Nap
6:30 BT
This worked really well up until today. Tomorrow I will try 4 hours A and see if that may help. I think I may have to cut nap to 20 minutes because I've also noticed that if p.m. nap gets too "late" she will refuse to go down also. I think I will need to play around with p.m. nap time as well.
Another thing I realized...when she has had a bad nap day, say one nap or like today a 30 minute nap day, the next day, she will be able to handle shorter A times, but then if she has a good nap day, I forget to take that into consideration the next day. Does that make sense? Tomorrow she may sleep well on the same schedule because she had so little sleep today, but then I need to account for it the following day. It's a bit tricky really =).
-
It's a bit tricky really =).
Yes, it sure is.
I think I may have to cut nap to 20 minutes because I've also noticed that if p.m. nap gets too "late" she will refuse to go down also. I think I will need to play around with p.m. nap time as well.
Yes, you may need to, but her bedtime is pretty early right now. I'm thinking it might help to actually stretch out the day a little bit before cutting the morning nap, because eventually you're going to want a later wake up to be able to get to one nap easier. Does that make sense?
-
Yes its Liana. :) Thought since I was on here a lot I might as well add my name. :) I'm a hello kitty fanatic, that's why the screen name. :) :)
I'm soooooooo going to need you ladies help when I start transitioning DS to 2 naps then again to one. We work well together! Do you remember when your lo's went down to two naps?? I'm having a hard time remembering.... And my lo#1 has the highest sleep needs ever, so it wouldn't be the same anyway!!!!!! She fell asleep today on the way to preschool at 9am!! (she woke at 6:45am) when she's teething she should really be on two naps, but will not take two anymore. :(
Christine, how's little Sophie doing??
Katie, what's your little girls name, I forget?
-
Katie, what's your little girls name, I forget?
Claire! ;D
-
Hi Ladies,
It's actually more like you two are a great team and I am just good at listening =). You've given some great great advice!
Liana- If I remember correctly my DD went to two naps at 6-7 months. I remember having early BT's to make up for that drop in the third nap and to prevent OT. I hope the transition goes smoothly for your little one. Two to one has been really tough for us and I think it's just tough in general. But you're an experienced mommy now which make things a bit easier! How is your little one's diahrrea? Better?
Katie: What a beautiful name! I love the name Claire--so gentle and sweet!
Today is the third day she's refused her p.m. nap. Sigh. I even tried a longer A time before the p.m. nap and the crazy thing was she actually went down quietly and went to sleep for 2 minutes and then something suddenly woke her up and she stood up and did her standing routing for 50 minutes before I finally went in to get her. Not sure what suddenly woke her up but I was singing my praises until I heard a cry and thought..."uh oh!" Dad went in twice but she screeched and screeched and fought it hard. Then...get this. I finally get her because it's been 50 minutes and it's obvious that she doesn't want to sleep and after I pick her up and bring her to the room to change, she smiles and waves to the BOTH of us. My husband and I look at each other thinking, Sophie 23...mommy and daddy 0.
This is what our schedule looked like:
5:00 Wake up (her mornings are getting earlier and earlier as is to be expected when she only has 30 minute naps all day. Tomorrow she will probably wake at 430 a.m.)!
9:20-9:50 Nap
1:50-1:53 Nap (then suddenly popped up and started crying..unless I was wrong and she never went down.)
5:15 BT
Not quite sure what to try tomorrow.. Afraid that OT will begin to build up again like last time.
-
Katie, I love the name. :) fits her cute little picture. :)
Oh Christine. :( I'm so sorry!!!! ahhhhhhh, these LO's are just killin us right now! LOL ;)
Anna-Li's diarrhea is much better. She's recovering thank God!
It seems to me at this age when Anna-Li was sick or teething and got OT she would just refuse naps period. It was so frustrating b/c she would be sooooooooo winy, cranky and in pain but REFUSE naps. Its like all they need is to SLEEP but that's the last thing they will do!!!!!!!!!!!! 3 days in a row refusing pm nap, maybe its time to just switch her to one nap and a VERY early bt to compensate? I have a hard time giving much advice for A times and such as DD was so high sleep needs. But today she was beside herself at 10am (after being awake 3 hours.......... SHE'S 24 months too!!) so I just plugged her in bed. I just decided I'm going to put her down when she needs to go down before getting OT and let her sleep as long as she wants, then do a VERY early bt. When she's teething she really needs to do 2 naps a day, but will NOT do them. I've tried every trick in the book to get her to do it, she WON'T! So far this has worked for her. I usually let her nap around 10 or 11am and she will sleep a hour or so. Then I put her to bed around 5:30-6:30 depending on when she gets tired. And for some reason by me getting her down before she's OT she will make that sleep up at night (5:30pm-6:30 or 7am). So I ensure she goes down for a nap tired but not OT then goes to bed tired but not OT. And for some reason this works. I'm not sure if it would work in your case as I think she's still young enough and really needs the two naps still. But its is our only option b/c if I try for two naps a early and late she'll take a small early nap and refuse the pm one and get ot. if I try one nap in the middle of the day she's ot for the nap and wakes screaming her head off at 3o min's and will NOT go back down. Then goes to bed ot. So this is our only solution. Its not perfect but its all the works at the moment. :( So I just watch her cues and not the clock. Put her down for one nap when she's tired and then put her to bed when she's tired. She's not awake much at the moment... LOL! But its the only way to prevent that early wakings and the ot loop. I discovered this solution after she had one nap not too early but not mid day (right in between) then she fell asleep in the car on the way home from somewhere at 5pm. .She had been so beside herself all day I just couldn't take it anymore, so I put her in her crib fully clothed knowing she'd wake in a half an hour and we'd have to do a very late bt. But she didn't wake until 7:30am (she had been previously waking at 5:45-6am). I guess her body just needed that huge catch up time. And I realized she fell asleep when she was tired and didn't wake until she was more rested.
Anyway, take that for what its worth but its working at our house right now.
Is there any way to resettle her when she wakes in the morn? Do you have any way to get her back down so she can start a more reasonable time? I think she's WAY OT at the moment and is having trouble getting caught up. I think she's in a big OT, SA loop, just going round and round and round and its getting worse.
-
Many thanks on the name! Claire means "clear, bright," which she definitely is!! ;D
You've given some great great advice!
But I'm not sure it's working. :( Sorry, Christine!
So, the previous two days that she refused the pm nap, what was the A time at (you mentioned you added some on for today)? From my experience, I would say she's OT, but that's where my mind defaults to, so I could definitely be wrong. Is she settling well for the morning nap?
A couple options again. You can keep with the A times you used today. If you do in fact think she fell asleep quickly and it was something else that woke her, then it's worth a try to see what happens tomorrow. It may be that today was a fluke. Or, you can go the route of cutting the morning nap and bringing the afternoon nap up. If you cut the morning nap, I'd try a much shorter afternoon A to begin with, maybe around 2.5 hr or 2 hr 45 min. Right now, at 21 mo, if my DD has had a longish NW or a significantly early EW, she'll do a 20 min am CN and just barely under 3 hr A after that.
I do hope that helps. If it continues to be a struggle, you might start a new thread to get some new, more experienced advice. I'm sure we'll follow you over; I just want you to get this figured out!!
-
just locking this thread
pop over to http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=173927.0 to help out so we can keep all advice on the same thread :)