BabyWhispererForums.com
SLEEP => Night Wakings => Topic started by: sbalcome1980 on July 28, 2011, 14:21:01 pm
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Hi,
I am mommy to a 9.5 mo DS who is giving me some sleeping troubles (has been since birth really) He is a refluxer, although I am 100% sure his discomfort is controlled by his current meds (prevacid). He is able to go to sleep independantly, however when things are bad, it's as though he forgets how. I also posted this on the EASY forum because I wondered if I might have a routine problem.
Good day:
7:30 am -wake and bottle (6-8 oz)
8:00 am - breakfast - usually fruit and oatmeal
9:30 am - wind down: stories, bottle (4 oz) and lullabye; sleeps until 10:30 or 10:45 am, wakes up cooing to himself, happy
12:00 - lunch - meat and veggies and usually some formula from sippy cup
2:00 pm - wind down, same as above; sleeps until 3:30, wakes up happy
4:00 pm - snack, usually yogurt and/or some rice puffs and juice
5:30 pm - solids; meat, veggie and fruit and medication
6:30 pm- if the weather co-operates, we go for a walk
7:30 pm - bath , massage, PJ's
7:50 pm - wind down which is sotries, bottle and lullabye
8:00/8:15 - in crib with bedroom door closed. Sometimes he is awake when put down and he will just lay his head down and go to sleep, sometimes he is mostly asleep when put down, sometimes he fusses and needs a hand on his back to calm down and then he will go to sleep.
anywhere from 1:00 am - 5:30 am he will have a NW, but resettle easily after a bottle.
Bad Day
6:00 am - wake up, bottle (8 oz) and try to resettle. Will usually go back to sleep from 7:00 to 8:00 am.
8:00 am - breakfast, solids as above.
10:00 am - nap for about an hour
12:00 - lunch
2:00 pm - attempt for pm nap..........usually it's a no go.
4:00 pm - attempt for a catnap............no go.
5:30 pm solids and meds
will usually skip either the walk or bath and attempt for an early BT, around 7:00 or 7:30 pm.
he will then wake every hour until 10:30 pm and I resettle him by picking him up (after attempting to settle him in the crib) and snuggling him. Then he will wake around 1:30 am and I give him a bottle and he will usually settle. Then he is awake again at 6:00 am.
Here is his sleeping pattern over the last 7 days:
Thursday, July 21 - was at his grandma's for the day with his 3 cousins. Grandma reported that he did not sleep very much (had a decent morning nap, no afternoon nap). He went to bed at his regular time of 8:00 pm, woke once at 9:30 pm, went back to sleep with just a cuddle, same at 11:30 pm and then slept through until 7:30 am.
Friday, July 22 - we were on the go all day, he had 3 naps in the car of approx. 30 mins each. He went to bed at 8:00 pm, woke at 12:30 pm, had a bottle and then slept until 7:00 am
Saturday, July 23 - he was on the go again, had a regular morning nap, then a 45 min nap in the early afternoon so I put him down for a 30 min catnap around 4:45 pm. He went to bed at 8:00 pm and slept until 7:00 am without a peep !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Sunday, July 24 - very busy day, he had a 1 hr nap in the morning, he went to church with his aunt then went to my mom's house for lunch and then another 1 hr afternoon nap and then went out to a sort of annual fair on the waterfront (lots of action). He came home and had a 30 min catnap then went to bed at 8:00 pm and slept until 7:30 am !!!!!!!!!!!!! (I think I did a dance)
Monday, July 25 - I work Mon, Wed, Thurs and he goes to a babysitter. Since the weekend went so well with less daytime sleep, I asked the babysitter to cut his am nap to 1 hr and his pm nap to 1.5 hrs. She had to wake him up after those times for both naps. He went to bed at 8:00 pm and slept until 6:30 am.
Tuesday, July 26 - was at home with me all day. He had a 1 hr morning nap and otherwise he only had 2 naps in the car of about 20 mins each. I put him to bed around 7:00 pm. He woke at 8:00 pm, 9:00 pm (settled with a cuddle) and again at 2:45 am (settled with bottle) and then woke at 6:00 am. I resettled him at 6:00 am until 7:00 am.
Wednesday, July 27 - was at the babysitters. Had 1 hr morning nap and 1 hr afternoon nap. Went to bed at 7:15 pm (was very fussy and tired). Woke at 3:00 am and then again at 6:00 am. Resettled at 6:00 am with a bottle and he slept until 8:15 am.
I am on vacation for the next 10 days and he will be with me the whole time. I am really hoping to be firm about his EASY during that time. I have been using shhh pat, which still works for him even though he's older. My biggest problem is that I have zero understanding of why he is waking so sporadically. If he woke every night at the same time, then I think I would understand and be able to come up with a plan. I don't know what to do with this boy............he sleeps through the night for several days and then starts waking again? He is not teething at the moment. He has started to crawl and be able to sit up in his crib and I know this can cause disruptions, but he started to crawl before he began sttn for those few days. Help me please!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I've been sleepless for 9.5 months. When he started the pattern of waking only 1-3 times per night I was ecstatic and didn't feel the need to do anything to force improvement becuase that was way better than we were used to, but now I am working, he takes more energy to look after and I think I have reached my limit of sleepless nights. 9.5 months feels like too much.
TIA,
Steph
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(((HUGS))) I think you could use a routine tweak. your A to bed is quite long and your first A is quite short. Having said that, I don't think you should have 2 threads going, as you will get conflicting advice. What thread would you like to work off of? This one or the one in EASY?
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I would like to keep this one going.
Last night he woke at 1:48 am and was awake for an hour. I've been doing this night waking thing since he was born and there was a time when 5 wakings was normal for us, but for some reason I have just reached the end of my reserves. I found last night so hard that I couldn't help but think about "cry it out". I couldn't ever actually leave him alone when he was really upset, I even find it very difficult to hear him cry when I'm holding him........................but in those wee hours of the morning, I just want to do whatever works the quickest and I get frustrated with myself the next day because I haven'[t done anything to change this pattern. Anyway, he finally went back to sleep, but I did some APOP - rocking and singing until he was actually asleep in my arms. I attempted to put him down 7 times before that, and tried to settle him each time with words and a hand on the back and a few of the times it would look like it was going to work, but then he would scramble and get his legs under himself and sit up and cry, cry, cry. Then, even picking him up wouldn't work. I planned to pick him up, settle him and put him right back down, but he wouldn't settle with just a cuddle. I gave him advil last night because I thought he might be getting teeth, but the pain reliever did nothing, and I don't feel anything on his gums, so I think we can rule out teething. 4 days ago, I was putting him in his crib awake and he was sleeping for 10.5-11.5 hours and I can't see what has changed from then to now..........I'm at a loss for a plan.
He woke this morning at 7:00 am, so I am going to to my best to keep him up until 10:00 am and then I will go for an hour nap.
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It is very hard when you are sleep deprived. Be mindful of how you handle NWs though, since the more consistent you are, the quicker you will be able to handle this.
You know that CIO isn't recommended, so I won't say any more than that on this issue. ;)
Looking at the routines you posted, your LO is doing a 4-4.25 A time on a good day and longer on bad day. That last A can really effect nighttime sleep. On those crap nap days, I would aim for an early bed. On the better days, I would stick with a 3.5 hour A and see what kind of night you have.
About the NWs, is your LO teething? Have you tried medicating before bed to see if it makes a difference with the NWs?
I know you are using AP during the NWs. Once you get some routine issues tweaked, you can work on using PU/PD. However, even that won't work if your LO is teething.
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I medicated last night and it didn't make any different, so I am thinking that it's not teething. Also, I don't see any daytime behavior that would indicate teething. Last time he teethed, he had horrible nights though. Is there some way that I can be pretty sure he isn't teething?
I will aim for 3.5 hours A time and see how that works. So, would an ideal day look like this?
E/Wake 7:30 am
Activity - 7:30 am - 11:00 am (including wind down)
Sleep - 11:00 - 11:45
E/Wake - 11:45
Activity - 11:45 am - 3:15 pm
Sleep - 3:15 pm - 4:45 pm
E/Wake - 4:45 pm
Activity - 4:45 pm - 8:15 pm
Sleep - 8:15 pm
I tried to put him down for a nap at 9:38 am this morning. He was showing signs of tired, rubbing eyes, yawning, fussing etc. but it was a no go. Perhaps he was UT? Here's what happened. We did wind-down. During bottle he got very drowsy (eyes closed) but not asleep (limbs still moving, he plays with his blanket with his hands while he has his bottle). When I put him in his crib, he fussed, then tucked his legs up under himself and got up on his knees and rolled around. I put my hand under his legs and lowered him, put a hand on his back and altered between shhhh and saying "night night honey, it's time for sleep". This would calm him down, then I would take hand away and the whole thing would repeat, each time, his fussiness was escalating until he was really freaking out and then I picked him up until he stopped crying, put him back in the crib and he then cried really hard again. Process repeated a few times and by the time I gave up, he was wide awake, not even drowsy anymore, smiling at me. So, I just brought him back out to the living room and hee's playing by himself on the floor and is not fussy at all. So, I probably tried to put him down too early, right? What should I do now?
What do you think I should do while trying to get this routine set if he gives me a really hard time when he is put down for naps? Bedtime is usually not a problem, mostly just naps and NW. At bedtime, I can usuallly just put him in his crib and he will wiggle around a little and settle down by himself within a minute.
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I think what you posted is ok. It is hard for me to say, because my day starts and end earlier. We always had difficulty with sleep too late in the day, but I know many don't have the same problem.
When you put your LO down for naps, put him down and walk away. If he stands and starts crying for you (a real cry and not a mantra cry), you go in, lay him down, give a quick rub, and walk away. The goal is to get to the door. If he starts crying again, repeat. I wouldn't stay next to him rubbing his back, because then you get stuck.
As for the timing of the nap, he woke today at 7 right? I would have at least pushed him until 10.
here are some sample routines for you.:
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=164030.0
and since your LO is almost 10 months:
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=164031.0
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OK, thanks so much for your help, I am going to try the schedule I posted and am going to use p/d with variations as you described. Wish me luck, I will update after tonight.
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So, I have stuck fairly close to the EASY I posted (pushing A time to 3.5 hr) and we are down to 1 night waking (with a feeding) and there is minimal fuss at BT and naptime. His naps aren't terribly long (45-60 mins in the am and 60 mins in the pm), but he doesn't seem OT to me. I am now thinking that I will let this new routine "sink in" for the rest of the week and then start p/d next weekend. I'm just wondering if I should be trying to reduce the night feed over the next few days before I use p/d to deal with NW's.....and if I should, do I reduce the # of ounces, or dilute the feeds until they are all water?
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OK, scratch the plan of waiting until next week. Did lots of reading on the forums last night and for his nap this morning, I decided to try something. Our typical wind down is: stories in his bedroom, bottle, snuggle with lullabye and into the crib. I think one of our problems has been that he is usually just about asleep by the time the routine is over and we put him in his crib..........not much opportunity to learn independant sleep. Since we spent the last few days with the new A time, I can definately see that he is ready to sleep when I go to put him to bed. Today I did stories and bottle in our bright living room, thinking that I could keep him from falling asleep before I put him in his crib. MIssion accomplished, he was still awake after the bottle but had gotten drowsy and knew that it was sleep time, I then did the cuddle and lullabye on the way to his bedroom. Then when I put him in the crib, he fussed and started to cry and pull his legs under so he could sit up. I did p/d once, kept a hand on his back and even patted a little until he calmed and then took my hand away and he stayed quiet and didn't move around, and voila, he fell asleep. I was in his bedroom a total of about 3 minutes, maximum. Fingers crossed!! This nap won't be a long one, I am capping the am naps because he doesn't need 2 long naps anymore and eventually when we go to 1 nap, I think it should be the pm one.
While reading last night, I thought of a question......if you think LO is teething, or has separation anxiety or perhaps pains in the belly, how much do you do to help them sleep? I tend to do whatever it takes, which is always lots of APOP and reading on the forums, it looks like maybe that is the wrong thing to do. Obviously you're not gonna plop a teething baby in his crib and expect that p/d is gonna get him to go to sleep, but if I suspect teething, then give pain meds and there are NW, how should I handle those?
Also, still wondering how I should wean the NF`s...............we have been dealing with NW by giving him a feed and I`m not sure if I should wean them gradually over a week or stop cold turkey. If I should wean, is diluting or reducing oz the best way.
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It sounds like you are making a lot of progress. :)
Normally, the bottle in in the beginning of the EAS cycle. Is your bottle normally right before sleep?
I tend to do more AP during teething. Some don't because they practically teeth for 2 years, so it drags on. However, you will see that some teeth are worse than others and sometimes a tooth will pop through without any discomfort. I think you have to do what you are comfortable with. During times of obvious discomfort, I also AP. I know that I have established independent sleep already and it won't take long to get back on track.
As for weaning the NF, if you are ready to do it, you just do PU/PD when your LO wakes. you do it until she is sleeping and you don't give in no matter what. If you give in, you have wasted a lot of time! Normally, after a few nights, she will stop waking for the feed. Bear in mind that PU/PD will not work (or is not a good idea) if a LO is waking because of routine issues, discomfort, etc.
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I shouldn't have been so smug about this morning's success. I gave LO his last bottle around 7:15 and then took him to his bedroom for lullabye and "night night" to the light, window etc. and then layed him in his crib like this morning, he struggled the same as this morning, and I did the same thing, only this time it never stopped..............he just wiggled and wiggled and fussed and then cried. Eventually, he ended up trying to play with me, at which point I left the room and he played for a few minutes, then cried. When he cried, I went back in, did p/d and put a hand on his back, saying our phrase, he got really worked up so I picked him up until calm, then laid him down then he cried even harder............the same process repeated over and over and 55 minutes later I had to call in his dad because I started to get too frustrated and I think the baby could feel that. It's been about 10 minutes and he just stopped crying again.
Any tips on how I could do this better? He was used to having bottles right before being put in his crib, so now we have the bottle, then I walk him to his bedroom while singing him a lullabye and he stays in my arms until we say night night to some stuff in his room and close his curtains, turn off the light, etc. I am trying to move the E farther away from the S.
It's killing me that he's in there crying and I'm not there :( I even find it really hard when he's rolling around in his crib crying. What shoudl I be doing when he rolls onto his back and is looking at me and crying....I couldn't handle that, so I picked him up until he was calm, but honestly it takes awhile for him to calm in my arms and then he cries harder when I put him down.
Am I doing p/d prematurely and should focus on the routine and moving the E from S first? I know it's not supposed to be painless but I really hate hearing my LO cry and perhaps should try smaller steps......like maybe this week focus on the routine change and not falling asleep with a bottle in his mouth. If I did that, then the routine would end with cuddling in his room, and he would likely fall asleep, or almost asleep in my arms and then I place him in the crib. Then once we have the routine mastered and he is falling asleep without the bottle, I can work on getting him into his crib before he falls asleep in my arms. Thoughts? Experience? This is HARD!!! I know it's important too.
Thoughts? I never thought I would want to cave during my first real session, but I am wondering if I am ready for this or if I should slow down and try to do 1 thing at a time and then wean myself out of the falling to sleep process.
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(((HUGS))) It is very hard listening to your LO cry. Unfortunately, it is part of the process though. There is a lot of screaming during sleep training. Ear plugs help a bit. ;)
What was the A time that you put your LO down at?
I would definitely work on separating bottles from sleep during your sleep training. But I hate dragging things out and like the torture all at once and quick. ;) Having said that, it all boils down to what you can handle. Again, you can only do PU/PD if you have ruled out other issues.
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Thank you for the hugs. I feel better today.......everything is harder at night, esp. a crying baby.
So, here is yesterday's EASY:
7:30 am - wake and bottle
8:30 am - solids
10:45 am - bottle
10:50 am - wind down, then shhh pat/put down in crib. Asleep by 11:00 am
12:00 pm - awake
12:15 pm - solids
3:10 pm - in the carseat (we had an appointment), asleep in less than 3 minutes
4:15 pm - awake and bottle
5:15 pm - solids and meds
7:45 pm - bottle
7:55 pm - wind down then attempted shhh pat in crib and you know the rest of that story. He eventually ended up going to sleep at about 9:00 pm and that was on my chest while I sat in a chair (no rocking or jiggling just sitting still). Not a good thing to do after all that crying, I was quite upset with myself that I couldn't see it through last night.
So, he was pretty close to a 3.5 hr A time in between all of his sleeps yesterday, except looking at the last one, maybe it was a little long? By the time he would have actually gotten to sleep (if all went well) it would have been almost 4 hrs. I should have started the wind down at 7:15 or 7:30? Any other advice on our routine yesterday?
I was thinking about the other possible issues yesterday...........I don't want to be doing p/d if there is something else I can change first. I am confident that I can rule out discomfort from teething and reflux. I know that he is experiencing some SA right now, but we are working on that during the day (he does go to a sitter, we play peek a boo, I tell him when I'm gonna leave the room, etc.) Light in his room could possibly be an issue, but certainly not for his NW because it is very dark then. I am going to put a second darker set of curtains on his windows. I am going to buy a fan and put it just outside his room by the door because I am not 100% certain that noise can be ruled out as a contributor, although I suspect it's not an issue. The temp in his room is good, although it may have contributed to last night's escalation because he got sooo hot when he was worked up. So, I really think it's partly routine issues and then mostly props (bottle and me). I am more like you and would like to get it all over with at once, but I am not sure that I can handle the intensity that would bring and also DH is even softer than me. I would like to work on the routine and bottle part for the next 10 days and then work on extracting myself. So that would mean that there is no falling asleep with a bottle in his mouth and no more feedings for NW.
DH was not very supportive last night at first. His exact words when LO was crying his hardest "what is this supposed to be teaching him?". Then I explained it to him and it took about 3 different tries until he finally got the message that we are going to continue to need to go to him when he wakes at night until we teach him how to fall asleep by himself....and I told him that getting up every night is too much for me. He ended up handling the NW last night. We talked more about it and I know I have him on board now.
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I wrote a response to this earlier and it is not here. ???
((HUGS))) My DH and I have fought many times in the middle of the night or early morning when a child wasn't sleeping. you just feel desperate for sleep at that time and it is hard to make do.
I think your routine looks fine. If anything, I would shorten the last A to 3.5 hours. That means sleeping by 3.5 hours. So you would have to move your whole afternoon forward.
Also, your LO is almost 10 months right? Is she drinking full bottles? At this age, we only had 3 bottles - one in the morning, one mid morning/early afternoon, and one before bedtime.
I would put the fan inside the room for white noise. works like a charm.
Honestly, if you think that your LO isn't uncomfortable, I would pursue PU/PD. Your routine isn't so off that you would have multiple NWs as a result. Also, if you have tried medicating and don't see a difference in NWs, then maybe it isn't teeth and it is just habit.
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I made sure that the last A time was only 3.5 hours this evening. Had a rough bedtime, a NW 3 hours later (settled with no bottle, but cuddling) and then just got done a horrible 2 hr waking. I even gave him a bottle this time, but everytime I went to put him down, he writhed and screamed. Ugh. Sat down with DH to determine how we are going to handle this...........long discussion and we decided we would take tomorrow to both think it over. I don't want to start something that we aren't going to see through. Before tonight's wakings, I thought gradual was the route for us, but after tonight where I was with him and he was crying for 2 hours anyway...............pu/pd is more appealing because I know it will help with our multilayer issue faster. I just know that I can't do this for much longer. I shed just as many tears as he did tonight.
He still has 5 bottles, only because of the feed to sleep dependance. I would have liked to cut it back by more at this point, but he has one in the morning when he wakes, then one before his morning nap, one before his afternoon nap, one at bedtime and then one during the night when he wakes............and probably 1x per week, he will have more than 1 NW where I can't settle him any other way than bottle, and so he'll end up having 6 bottles that day. The bottles during the night and before his naps are 4 oz and then wake up and bedtime bottles are about 7 oz.
If I make it through this and have another baby, I will do things soooo differently. I had read Tracy's book 2x before I even gave birth and had all the best laid plans, and then DS ended up with reflux and LOTS of APOP because it was a struggle to get the Dr's around here to medicate........we waited until 6 months >:( Habits were strong by that point and the meds improved his sleep so much that we were just happy to enjoy the sleep we were getting without any further attemps to teach sleep............prob a mistake because he's had 3.5 more months of the bad habits and I know from experience with other things with him that it doesn't take him very long to learn habits/patterns/routines at this age.
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(((HUGS))) Don't beat yourself up. Reflux changes everything. I have 2 refluxers and used a lot of AP too. But I was able to make a lot of progress when they were healthy.
Are you sure the reflux is controlled? That is a long NW and seems like pain or discomfort to me. Also, that first NW looks OT. Wakings so close to bedtime tend to be OT. Do you think your LO is OT?
Do you think you can work on offering 3 bottles during the day? Since those middle 2 are so small, I would think that you can combine them to 1. Here are some sample routines for you. http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=164031.0
How are solids going?
It will take time, but you will get there. Work on separating bottles from sleep and trying to achieve independent sleep during the day at least.
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It was a long NW for DS, but I don't think it was reflux, because it was different than when he was a little bub and was truly in discomfort. The cry is different and his behavior was different. He's on 7.5 mg of prevacid. A while back we did go to the Dr. to see if the dose should be increased because he does a fair amount of coughing, but the DR. refused to increase the dose and prescribed and inhaler for the coughing, which we chose not to use. The coughing doesn't seem to bother him....he coughs throught hte night sometimes and doesn't wake. He did have a few toots, which led me to believe that his tummy might have been bothering him (gas) a little, but in general, my gut was telling me that it was because he wanted to fall asleep in my arms with a bottle in his mouth. He would settle, and then I would put him down and he would cry hard, then when I picked up again, he would settle (lay his head on my shoulder and relax his body) and then when I put him down he would cry hard again. It's possible that there are teeth at play here, but he isn't acting like he's teething during the day and once again, I really believe it's a falling to sleep by himself issue. I put him down for his nap this morning without giving him a bottle and put him in his crib drowsy but awake and there was minimal fuss......I then had to wake him up from his nap after 1.5 hrs (I let him have a tiny bit extra because of last night). It always seems as though he does well when the way he is put down encourages independant sleep, kwim??? The way the sleep starts is the way it continues.
OT could be a factor......I don't really know how to judge if it is. DS doesn't really give me any cues, except when he is waaay beyond OT, he gets very silly and wired. Yesterday was all 3.5 hr A times and his daytime sleep was approx 2 hrs. His nighttime sleep hasn't gotten any better since his daytime sleep went from approx 3 hrs to 2 hrs so I was thinking of letting his am nap extend to be 1 hr, then his pm nap would be 1.5 hrs, thus giving him 2.5 hrs daytime sleep. He generally wakes at 7:30 am and goes to bed at 7:45-8:15 pm, so he has a 12.25-12.75 hr day giving him somewhere around 13-14 hrs of total sleep.
So, after last night's wakings I woke up (if you can call it that since I didn't really sleep.... ???) with a new resolve and want to do pu/pd with LO to teach him independant sleep. DS is going to go to my mom's tonight so that DH and I can get organized to start tomorrow night and so that we can have a full night's sleep before embarking. I have a bunch of questions before starting though. I reread the sleep interview, the chapter on PU/PD in BWSAYP and also read a bunch of the FAQ threads but have some questions:
1. after doing his BT routine, I will put him into his crib and I am fairly certain that he will sit up immediately. At that point, I know I am supposed to lower him down, say my key phrase and then walk towards the door (but not leave). DS will most likely then wriggle around and flip himself over on his back, hitting his head on the side of the crib in the process and will then cry even harder. What do I do at that point? He is not up, so doesn't need p/d and I'm not really sure if I should do p/u, or try to flip him over - usually when I do that, he resists against me. Can't rub his back since he's on it and he doesn't respond to rubbing his belly (he sleeps on his tummy now).
2. for the first few nights, I am supposed to stay in the room until he is fully asleep, then after a few nights I would do wi/wo..right?
3. For the past few days with his naps, I have found that when I put him in his crib and immediately rub his back and sing him "twinkle twinkle little star" he settles and then falls asleep pretty easily and quickly..............problem is, I don't really know at what point he falls asleep, I could be rubbing him until he is sleeping, which I know will just turn into another prop. Should I try to do this, or does it work against pu/pd?
4. Do you think I need to try more tweaking with the routine before I do pu/pd? My instincts tell me that giving him back the extra 15 mins for his am nap is probably sufficient as long as I combine that with paying close attention to the last A time being 3.5 and not a minute longer.........but I was wondering what you think.
5. For NW, I go to him as soon as I hear him cry, and he is almost always sitting up, so I p/d and then try to soothe in the crib? and repeat the process the same as I did for BT? No bottle at any cost, right?
6. What happens if he cries for 3 hours.........???
In your experience, how long did pu/pd take? Any other words of wisdom?
If I do this, it should solve the feed to sleep problem and the falling asleep on us, right? (assuming there is no other reason that he's waking or resisting bedtime) so I won't have to do any other weaning, etc. He should then be on the right # of bottles for his age because he won't need them to sleep anymore. He does well with solids. Had a bit of a time with him gagging for the longest while, but now he is eating all sorts of finger foods and I am fairly certain that he is getting enough to eat. For breakfast he usually has oatmeal and fruit. For lunch he usually has some sort of homemade casserole, pasta, veggies, meat. He has yogurt for a snack sometime through the afternoon, has some of whatever we have for dinner (potatoes, veggies and usually a fruit) and then sometime throughout the day he usually has a biscuit or two.
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I have been hesitating to respond, because reading your post makes me think there is some sort of discomfort and I don't want to advise you to do PD if that is the case. The coughing you describe reminds me of my LO and it was like that until the reflux was controlled. Why won't your ped try 15 mg of Prevacid? Have you tried to rule out dietary issues, such as dairy and soy?
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Just wanting to say that I also think there could be discomfort here. Long NW like this are almost always pain...and in our case the settling with the bottle/breat could be comfort/relief from the pain. If you think this is not teeth, or a reflux flare it could well be a virus. Have you tried medicating (pain relief) during the long NW to see if this makes a difference?
It does seem you are on a relatively low dose of prevacid. As Kara mentions 15mg is an average dose and worth discussing with your Dr.
At this age Los are often back to being horizontal a bit more (crawling), and eating a wide variety of foods. Sometimes this is enough to cause little reflux flares. Have you introduced any new solids to your LOs diet recently?
I would be cautious with doing PU/PD until you are certain there is no discomfort, it can aggravate reflux, and be unsettling for a baby who is already in pain. It is a hard age hun, hang in there :-*
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I think you are both right. BT was fine, he was OT so it took awhile (almost an hour) but I ended up getting him in his crib awake and then settling him with touch and he fell asleep on his own. He woke 2 hrs later (10:45 pm) and wouldn't stop crying even when I was holding him. I gave him some ibuprofen and he settled and I put him back in his crib almost asleep. He woke about 1/2 hr later and cried, but I stood next to his door for a few seconds and less than 30 seconds later he had settled himself. He slept until 8:00 am this morning. I think there must be teeth on the horizon. His reflux does flare when he teethes, so I'm sure that will start happening soon.
How do I know if I should medicate?
So, he went without a feed last night, and I truly think he is capable, so I am not going to feed him through the night anymore. Otherwise though, because of his discomfort I will offer the cuddles and singing as much as he needs but try to do a gradual weaning where I put him down more and more awake.....does that sound reasonable?
I have no idea why Dr. won't just increase his prevacid dose. It has been a battle since day 1 to get DS what he needs for reflux. I couldn't get ANY meds until he was 6 months old, and even then we just happened to get a fill-in Dr instead of our usual Dr. and we got meds from her. We went to Dr about a month ago and asked for more meds because DS's cough was bad and he said that there was no way he would increase the dose. It's also a crappy system around here, because if you don't agree with what your Dr says......too bad. There aren't enough Dr's around here, and you're stuck with the one you have and can't go to Ped unless you are referred by your regular Dr. I very much like our Dr. in all other circumstances, but he doesn't have any experience with reflux in babies and I believe he is just timid of doing anything.....sort of old school and "tough it out".
So, any ideas on what I can do to help DS along with teething and reflux without more meds? Part of what we are doing is moving the bottle away from bedtime and naptime, so I know that should help some. I gave him some camilia this morning because he was really fussy and it's supposed to help with teething.
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Oh, also....
Re: food intolerances, I haven't done anything to see if he could have a milk or soy intolerance. His poos are pretty normal, although he tends to be on the constipated side (and has a real struggle to get poos out alot of the time) and he has never had a rash, etc. I read the post "does my LO have a food intolerance" and other than the fussiness and NW, Harrison doesn't seem to have any other symptoms. Could be have an intolerance even though his poos are normal and hasn't had a rash? He was on a lactose free formula, at one point Dr told me he was likely lactose intolerant so we switched formulas. I have slowly been mixing regular formula with the lactose free and he has been fine. He eats yogurt and cheese also. Now, having said all this, there is a family history of food intolerance. DH and his father and brother are lactose intolerant. MIL just discovered she has milk protein intolerance at the age of almost 60. She developed a rash a few months ago and started to get alot of GI issues and she cut out all dairy and she is fine now.
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Our only symptoms were coughing, congestion, and irritability during sleep times. You have all of those right?
The only way you would know would be to switch to a formula that doesn't have milk or soy proteins and give it a few weeks. Often symptoms improve without meds.
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Yah, we have those symptoms for sure. Would I start the trial now, or wait to see if there are changes when teething/reflux flare calm down......
It all feels like a guessing game...........whew. I have a friend whose little guy had reflux and MPI and he was on alimentum formula until about a year, when he could have diary again. I think she had to have a prescription to get the formula.
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Would I try soy formula first?
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I see that I can order nutramigen online............it won't hurt to try it.....I think I will order...
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I used allimentum with both kids. I had a prescription, but you don't need one. It just helped because it is so costly.
LOs tend not to like the HAFs. So you might have to ease into giving it by combining the formulas initially. I actually got lucky and my kids went with the switch pretty easy.
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OK, so I ordered nutramigen today. Will start to wean the dairy in his diet in prep for when the nutramigen comes. Do I need to stop all dairy and then reintroduce slowly? Some LO's with MPI can handle some stuff like margarine, etc. right?
So sorry that I am all over the place with this. I was certain that I was going to get fully into pu/pd and he had a bad night the night when you and Zacs mum posted and you were right (experience........) that there is discomfort. I soooo didn't see it. Today I got a good look in his mouth and could see some white where the two (upper) front teeth will come in. I couldn't get him to nap this afternoon, he was really uncomfortable, so I did medicate again tonight at BT and he went down like a charm because he was so tired and was finally feeling comfortable. He spit up again today.....the sure sign for him that reflux is flaring.
OK, so I would like to make a plan and stick to it. Not sure if I'm on the right track. Here is what I have:
-would like to trial dairy-free to rule out MPI
and going to wean the dairy in his diet and try nutramigen
-would like to continue to not do night feeds
(not sure if I should while he is teething or just keep the momentum of offering other comfort)
-would like to continue to move the bedtime feed further back in the routine
this is proving really difficult.....he fights sleep really bad and we have relied heavily on the bottle to make him drowsy...any other ideas?
-would like to establish an alternative comfort (other than bottle)
right now and using hand on the back + singing/key phrase......seems to work ok sometimes, will keep it up
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-would like to continue to not do night feeds
(not sure if I should while he is teething or just keep the momentum of offering other comfort)
FOr us the only comfort at night from teething was to BF. If you think this is what he needs to get comfortable when teething I would offer it, but that is just me. You can wean the feeds when the tooth is through.
Note that when babies are teething they often need more sleep so if you think he is tired earlier he probably is and needs that early BT.
Personally I would wait till those teeth are in to do sleep training as such, when a baby is in discomfort it is hard to try to teach them independent sleep :-* Hope those teeth come in quick
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My poor monkey :( He is having a hard night, I can hear the reflux in his throat and he's already woken twice for comfort. I will definately do as much as is necessary to make him comfortable. Sleep training can wait.
Thanks for the tip on extra sleep. It did seem like he was OT all of a sudden today, but I wasn't expecting it when it happened (usually he can last 3.5 hrs) so it crept up on me, but I will definately watch for it tomorrow.
Not sure what to do about the reflux flare. I know that it should get better after the teeth (I can see 2 coming in) but I have always had this nagging voice wondering if we've done everything we can.........ie: if a larger dose of prevacid would give more relief. I put that out of my mind because he generally does so well and because the Dr. flat out refused. I'm not sure if I should make a Dr appt or not. He said in no uncertain terms that he would not increase the dose. I wonder if he would consider increasing the dose, or even adding some zantac or something just for the periods when DS is teething. It's really frustrating fighting against the expert to get relief for my babe. I know I should trust my gut, but I always just end up feeling clueless and confused because the Dr., the public health nurse, in laws etc. all have a way of making me question myself.
I fought for about 4.5 months with different health care ppl insisting that DS had reflux and was told "no" so many times that I just backed down and honestly started to think that I was just a hysterical first time mom.....until I posted looking for help with sleep issues and instantly the ladies recognised it as reflux and gave me the push I needed to get back out there and advocate and a month and a bit later we finally got meds and relief.
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(((HUGs))) I have found that we really need to advocate (aka fight) for our LOs when it comes to reflux. I was fortunate the 2nd time around (if you can call it that) when the doc knew I had been there and just listened to me when I had concerns. But the 1st time, I fought for 10 months straight until we got a GI referral. My long winded point is, that you may just have to be that pest of a mom and call the doc to insist on either more Prevacid or Zantac. Plenty of LOs are on a full 15 mg. If he won't budge, insist on a GI (or ped) referral. You are the one up all night with your LO and I would remind your doc of that.
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Things calmed down last night and he was fairly happy today, but I hear/see the reflux symptoms now so clearly. Last time he teethed, he had a rough time for 3 weeks or so and I didn't realize why he was so restless until it was all over. Yikes! I talked to DH and we are going to make another appointment with Dr and ask for a Ped referral. I just have to remind myself that he can't ask for more meds so I have to do it for him.
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((HUGS)) I often needed the lovely women on here to open my eyes as well. It is always easier to see more clearly after as well. Good luck with your doc!
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Last night was really good. Bed at 8:00 pm.....bedtime wasn't great, ended up medicating because he was clearly tired, but definately uncomfortable. He woke at 1:30 am, drank 7 oz and then went back to sleep until 8:00 am. He was in good spirits today, but didn't want to nap, so it's an early BT for tonight.
Just wanted to check on something.......a friend of mine suggested that maybe Harrison needs a bedtime snack. IYO, do you think the bottle he has for his NW is comfort or actual hunger? It is at random times and he downs the whole bottle no problem......but I also know that he gets great comfort from his bottles. I'm curious as to whether or not a little snack might help him sleep better.
Also, he's got a slight rash on his back at the top today. It is a little bumpy rash. It could easily be heat rash, but more and more I am thinking that there might be an intolerance. What would a rash caused by MPI look like? The HAF should be here next week, so I'm eager to try it.
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I am so glad you had a better night. :) I really think your LO is comfort feeding during the night. But how are solids overall? I think that makes more of a difference than the last feeding. For us, we have always had solids around 4, bottle 5:30, bed at 6. Just to give you an idea of how spread out things are.
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Horrendous bedtime. We have been trying to get LO to sleep for 2 hrs now, DH had to take over because I was getting really frustrated and LO could sense it. What do you think I should be doing when I am holding him in the rocking chair after his bottle and he starts to push away from me and fight being held? I am pretty sure that I read somewhere on here that normally, you would put a baby who was doing this into his/her crib, but is that the case when you know there is discomfort? His teeth were really bothering him tonight and he was fussy during his last feed and when it was over he launched into screeching and only stops intermittenly for 30 seconds or so. I medicated (again.....) and it didn't seem to help much. When he was pushing against me and fighting me, I put him down in his crib, thinking he might be trying to tell me that he wanted to be left alone, but that made him cry harder and he scrambled to pull himself up to get back to me, so I picked him up and didn't try putting him back in.
OK, we have been doing solids at 5:30 pm, last bottle at 7:45 pm, bed at 8:00 pm.
I find it hard to judge if he's getting the right amount of solids. He does eat very well (IMO). For breakfast, he typically has oatmeal and some sort of fruit (banana, strawberry, blueberry, peaches etc). His lunch is usually pasta with veggies and meat........he eats lasagne, chicken casserole, sheppards pie, etc. Supper is usually parts of whatever we are eating, but is usually only fruits and veggies (ex: sweet potatoes and some apple sauce). He will usually have a snack in the afternoon, which will be a teething biscuit and yogurt. Then you know, he also has a bottle in the morning, usually only drinks about 6 oz because he's had a feed at night.....has a 4 oz bottle at am nap, 4 oz sippy cup of formula at lunch, 4 oz bottle at pm nap, 8 oz bottle at bedtime.
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Another rough bedtime. He is now in the living room playing because I can't handle it. When he was in my arms, he was ok for a bit as long as he could climb around on me. This really frustrates me when he does this, so I tried to lay him in his crib and he immediately scrambles to stand up and then cries for me to come. When I pick him up, he's ok for a second until he realizes that we are not leaving the bedroom. He is fighting bedtime so hard, it's really getting to me. Teeth or not, I can't spend 2+ hours each evening and 1+ hour during the night trying to get this kid to sleep. I can't handle it anymore. I never ever thought that 10 months in, I would still not have a shred of a life back.............I am not looking after myself at all because the time that I do get when there is help, all I want to do is sleep and get stuff like cleaning and laundry done. I love this baby more than I love anything, but some days I feel like he is sucking the life right out of me.........whew. I need to take a deep breath. I am just really having a hard time with the way it seems like we are just getting by instead of living. Yes, we get help......my mom will relieve us so that we can get a night's sleep every now and then but no matter what help we have, I feel like we are treading water because things are getting no better and I can't even think about doing this for another month, another 2 months......however long it is going to be. No one in real life is any help because every single one of them says that we need to just let him cry and there is no possible way I can do that. No matter how frustrated I get with him, I could never bear the thought of him wondering if I'm ever going to come back for him....
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So many (((HUGS))). It IS exhausting. Sleep deprivation is killer. If you have your mom to help, let her help and SLEEP. Don't cook, clean, or do any chores. Just rest. Your world will not fall apart if your laundry isn't done. Sure it feels unsettling, but it will be ok.
Have you called your doc? Call him when your LO is screaming the house down. Even if it is after hours, let him hear what you are going through. You need a ped or GI referral.
Hugs
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Hun I really don't think he is very well. We had lots of drama weeks ago and no one could work out what made DS so unsettled. Turns out it was a virus and he was sick :( In your case I think it is more the reflux, but there could be a bit of an intolerance to something he is eating too? ....DS could never tolerate bananas (caused reflux flares and sore tum) maybe something similar is causing him pain? Strawberries are also a common fruit that can cause issues. Does he eat anything acidy like tomatoes?
Hang in there sweetie big big hugs and as Kara says get hold of that Dr, take any help you can get and rest up. :-*
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He eats bananas, strawberries, and foods with tomato sauces and he eats lots of dairy. Noticed over the last few days that he gets a little bit of a runny nose after having a bottle, and he's been fussy after meals a few times, so a food intolerance sounds like a reasonable culprit to add to the list. I have ordered nutramigen and am going to do a dairy free trial once it gets here. Question: should I do just the diary free first, or eliminate those other foods too?
Called the Dr. office and talked to receptionist, am waiting to hear back from my Dr., I said that Harrison is definately experiencing some kind of discomfort and that his dad and I would like a referral to the Ped. I am also going to meet with the public health nurse tomorrow morning at 10:30 am. She helped me before so am hoping that she may help this time around.
Talked to DH tonight (just after my meltdown and subsequent post). He is going to handle NW for the next few nights so I can catch up a little. Am feeling slightly less overwhelmed, and feeling pretty lucky to have DH.
I will update. Thank you so much for the hugs and support. Impossible to do it without help from others who have been or are going through the same.
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I would just be very wary of tomato based food for refluxer. They are very acidic. Also citrus. No idea why but bananas and strawberries are common foods that cause reflux flares too.
He is going to handle NW for the next few nights so I can catch up a little. Am feeling slightly less overwhelmed, and feeling pretty lucky to have DH.
Great to see you are working as a team. We all need some time to recover from sleepless nights. :-*
I wonder if maybe you should just try cutting out the tomato/citrus, strawberries and bananas first as it is easier to do. If you find no difference then talk to your pead about Dairy. I would have thought if it was dairy you would have noticed by now IYKWIM :-\
((HUGS)) It is SO hard, and you are a wonderful mum. We all get burnout sometimes esp with unsettled LOs xx
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Interesting about the bananas Sara! We have never had issues with them. They have always been a safe food for us.
I would cut the citrus though. I think that is a good starting point, especially if reflux is flaring.
So glad you are getting some rest. Hang in there. I hope you get a ped referral soon.
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what fruits would be safe? Is there a list of potential reflux aggrevating foods somewhere?
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I talked with the public health nurse, she said that she believes we need a second opinion and that we can a). go back to our Dr and ask for a referral to the pediatrician here. Only problem with that is that he is very busy and there will likely be a wait. or b). go to the outpatients department at the children's hospital in the city where we will get looked at right away.
I think we are going to be taking a drive.............will update later.
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I'm sorry DS is having such a hard time. For us DD can have apples, pears, blueberries, raspberries and mango. Bananas seemed to be OK for a while and then caused a huge reflux flare about 4 months ago and I haven't tried her on them since. Peaches also didn't seem to work for her.
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THanks for the heads up on the fruit. Going to make sure DS doesn't get the acidy stuff. He has actually had alot of peaches lately.
Went to outpatients in the city tonight, got a great Dr, who upped DS's dose of prevacid to 15 mg. X fingers for us that it will make him more comfortable.
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I hope so. What was the dose before?
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He was on 7.5 mg per day..........so the dose is doubled. At the very least, if we don't see some improvement from the increased meds, then we will know we are barking up the wrong tree with thinking it's a reflux flare and will take a more serious look at other possible causes (food intolerances, teething). Gotta start somewhere.....and I will be surprised if things don't improve for him after a few days on the increased dose. Anyone know approx. how long it might be until we would see effects of the increased dosage?
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Whenever I upped DDs Losec dose I saw improvement in a couple of days.
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Same here, though it can take up to a week. Hang in there hun. x
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Glad the dose was increased. It took about a week for us to see a difference. I hope you see one quickly.
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He STTN last night !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Is it coincidence (although he's only done that 4 times in his life before) or meds????????
At bedtime, we did the regular wind down and he was basically asleep by the time he was done his bottle. I put him in his crib and he fussed around a little bit, then stopped and then started again. For some reason, I just felt like he really didn't want to be picked up, so I didn't. I put a hand on his back and talked to him, but that just made him more mad so I stopped. His crying did get pretty loud, but it was starting and stopping, which is different than normal. So I started to do wi/wo and it took lots of times, but only about 15 minutes and he went to sleep and then I didn't really hear a peep from him all night (coughed at 5:00 am but didn't seem to really wake).
Should I do the same thing tonight? What about NW?
His schedule yesterday:
wake 8:00 am
sleep 11:10 am - 12:20
sleep 3:00 pm - 4:00 pm
bedtime 8:30 pm
had to wake him up at 8:00 am this morning
I would like him to wake up earlier in the morning - can't believe I'm saying that, but I go back to work on Monday and need to have him to the sitter's by 8:30 am so I get to work on time..........but last night makes me want to do the exact same thing over and over again!!!
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I say no time like the present. If he did it last night then you should go for it for sure. Maybe the meds have taken effect already. DD always slept well after meds increases but it would go down hill later but I was still APing like crazy. So if you can get the sleep training done now then hopefully it will be an easier process. :)
As for the wake up time I guess just try to wake him up a little bit earlier. Maybe by 15 minutes each day until you are at the right time. Will your babysitter give him breakfast? My old one did and that was a lifesaver. I would just get her up 10 minutes or so before it was time to go. Just enough time to get her dressed. I'm hoping the new babysitter will do the same. I'll even provide the food :)
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Great news. I would try the same today. If you are going to wake slightly earlier move the entire day forward a touch too to prevent OT.
One thing to be aware of. For us wonderful nights (ie STTN 12 hours) were usually short lived and catch ups. I don't want to be the bearer of bad news and it is just as likely this is not the case...I just don't want you to be too disappointed if it is a one off hun...sometimes it isn't about the routine no matter what we do, it is just them. I hope you STTN too!!! :-*
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The one off has happened in our before too.........he actually did 2 in a row before and then it stopped as quickly as it happened. My fingers are crossed that this time a streak develops and continues, but I know all too well that I may be sleep deprived again soon :P
Am going to continue the same at bedtime tonight, but I was hoping to wean the night feeds and not stop cold turkey. Is that possible if I am doing a modified p/d w/o at bedtime?
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Last night was not great. Bedtime took 2 hours. I tried to do wi/wo but was not confident with my method because it wasn't going as well as the first night. He finally got to bed just after 10 pm. He woke at 4:30 am and I gave him a bottle and settled him back to sleep. I woke him at 8:00 am.
I would like to do wi/wo but I have some questions and I think I need to really know what I'm doing because I'm afraid I will use lack of knowledge as an excuse to stop because I find the crying so hard :( and that's basically what I did last night. I think I might have been in the room too much last night, I am pretty sure that he finds it very upsetting when I'm there and won't pick him up and/or take him out of the room. I think that's what he has come to expect because in the past when we are trying to get him to go to sleep and it's taken over an hour, we go out of the room and take a break.
Can anyone provide insight to the following:
-after bedtime routine, I put him in his crib and say my key phrase
-what should I do if he immediately stands or sits up?
-what should I do if he starts crying right away, do I still walk out?
-if he is just babbling to himself, mantra crying, or just slightly fussing, I walk out, right?
-when he starts to cry as if he needs me I count to 10, then I go back in, put him down (if necessary) repeat my key phrase and then walk out again, right?? do I offer more comfort, such as rubbing/patting?
-what if he stands right up again after I put him down?
-what if he still cries just as hard even though I've been in to comfort him? do I still walk out and count to 10?
-is there ever a point where I should pick him up?
-what if this goes on for 2 hours?
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((HUGS))) He is about 10 months right? I would say a tad too young for real WI/WO. Yes, you want to get to the door and not hover over the crib. But you aren't leaving if he is screaming. I think it sounds like your LO is still unwell and I would give the meds a few more days to kick in. You may have had the good night because sometimes they are so tired it just happens. OR maybe it is just the beginning of something good. Either way, you know something is bothering him.
To answer your questions, I walk out of the room after laying my LO down. He always does an initial cry, almost like a protest, so I give it a second. Often he lays back down and goes to sleep. However, if he stands and starts really screaming, I go in, lay him down, and then walk away. If it is a real cry (not the complaining one I described), then i go back in and rub his back if he is laying down or lay him down if he is standing. Then I walk away again. If he is just whining, I leave him to settle.
If he immediately stands, I still walk away until he starts his "i need you cry."
You know the difference in cries right? Only go if you get the "I need you" cry.
In the beginning, sleep training can take hours. Unfortunately, that is the way it is. It is hard! But if your LO isn't in pain and is just fighting sleep, it will get easier every night.
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I honestly don't think that I know the different between his cries.....except I do know his mantra cry from times when he falls asleep in the car (have never heard it at bedtime). I guess I also know his fussy daytime cry. I also know there is a cry that he does when he is really upset about something that happened, like if another kid takes a toy away from him, or if I left the room without telling him. That's the cry he is starting out with when I put him in bed. It doesn't take long though for it to be a really loud squeal and I don't know if that cry is more protesting or what it means.
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Protest cries are hard and we started getting them only recently so initially I freaked out that he was calling me. It was more like I 'hey where you going' when he was going down at BT. What I ended up doing is standing at the door for 5 mins facing away from him. He would do his usual settling etc. When I walked out (not always but sometimes) he would almost yell at me, loudly and angrily. I started to identify this was different to his I need you cry. I would then stand out the door and I said to myself 'listen to him what is he saying to me, does he need me or is he okay?' As soon as I said this to myself he would stop and go back to settling himself. When I ran straight in I think I was confusing him and he would then start up or try to play or climb on me, or sometimes cry more because I was interrupting him.
I do want to stress here though that if you are not sure and you think it could be an I need you cry you need to go back in. It took me a few weeks to grasp his new cry and work out how to get to this point and be comfortable that he was not giving me an I need you cry and that this was a little protest that I was going out the door.
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Last night and the night before we had really loooooong bedtimes and then he slept very well once he went to sleep. I wasn't focused on teaching for the past 2 nights, just trying to get him to sleep any way possible because he was hating bedtime so much. I haven't been able to get him to properly nap in 2 days either. Wondering if he has developed an aversion to bedtime/his crib/his room because of the terrible time he's been having at night. He will start to fuss now when we're on the way to his room and when he's really freaking out, I only need to move into the hallway to get him calm again. I suppose that could just be his little mind thinking that if he protests going in the room maybe we will go back out and play. I'm not sure, but I am going to take some time to really listen to his cries. He really only cries at bedtime, naptime and during the night and that's when I should be listening, but instead I find I'm in my own head "uh oh, what am I supposed to be doing now? It's taking so long, am I doing something wrong? He seems so upset with me" etc. etc. etc. But I am taking some time to let his meds kick in and get back to a point where he didn't react to bedtime like it's the worst thing that could ever happen.
He has woken up at 4:30 am for the past 2 nights, so am wondering if there is a pattern forming.
Anyway, I am going to wait for a few days to see if he settles more due to med increase and to really listen to his cries.
How many different cries do your LO's have? For my DS, I can distinguish a mantra cry, a fussy cry and one other cry that may or may not be his protest cry (does it when he notices I have left a room, or when another kid takes a toy from him).
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Your LO will also have an 'I need you cry'
Some LOs do always cry at BT, but I found a lot of it is either UT/OT/OS or lack of consistency with WD/BT rituals. Often discomfort appears when they are going down as they are distracted during A times. I find this with teething.
Lots of play time in the cot will help remove any aversion if you feel he is developing one. Though I suspect it is more of a routine issue.
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I think that DDs I need you cry is more of a frantic cry. Like she is just freaking out. With her protest cry you can tell she is angry. It is hard to tell when you have a baby who doesn't cry often.
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Have been listening to cries, but you're right.....it is hard to figure out with a LO who doesn't cry very much. Not such a bad problem to have, but it makes decoding sort of a mystery, but I think I did ok last night. Bedtime was pretty uneventful with no crying (he fed until almost asleep) and then he STTN (8:30 - 7:00). He did wake up at 12:30 and let out a couple of cries, but I could tell that they were "I don't want to be awake right now cries" and he settled in under 30 seconds and didn't need me.
I am having trouble with routine. I don't think DS is ready for 1 nap, but I am also having trouble fitting naps in and sometimes I think I am trying to put him down UT for his last nap of the day because I don't want it to go late. What ends up happening is that he refuses the nap and then starts to get OT, which I don't want at the end of the day so I put him down and he will end up sleeping until 5:00 pm or so, and even though it might have only been 30-45 minutes, I think he is UT for bedtime. Alternatively, some days I have trouble getting him down for a nap in the morning if I wait too long, and then he is OT and I don't get him to bed until around noon and then he will wake up after an hour or so and then the rest of the day is messed up and he ends up OT at bedtime.
Am I right to think that at this stage (can almost handle too much A time for 2 naps, but not enough for 1) that my options are short nap in the am then long nap in the pm, or long nap in the am and short nap in the pm?? How do I figure out what is better?
Do you think I am on the right track? Sometimes I feel completely lost because it feels like we're jumping back and forth from issue to issue but there's been so much going on with DS and I probably shoudl have been taking it one step at a time....like deal with the reflux before trying to do anything else, and now - deal with the routine before trying to teach sleep.
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I know exactly what you mean. DD is now falling asleep on her own completely but is still waking a lot at night. I'm wondering if I need a routine tweak as well. She just gets so cranky and fussy lately that I'm pretty sre she is tired but this will happen after only being awake for 2.5 hours in the morning and 3ish between other naps and bedtime. I just don't get it and I don't know what to do to get past the fussiness to push out her nap times. She will falls asleep in less than 5 minutes on her own and most times she just rolls over and goes to sleep when I put her down so I'm pretty sure she is tired but she is now waking right at the hour mark and sometimes waking after 30 minutes needing a cuddle to get back to sleep.
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How you handle the 2-1 is up to you. Some moms offer a longer am nap because their LOs hate being woken and they are able to get a cat nap. some moms cut the morning nap, because their LOs refuse a cat nap. Also, some moms have other LO's routines to manage and try to have LOs sleeping at the same time.
You can start with a longer morning nap and if you get pm nap refusal, try it the other way. That is really your preference. :)
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Soooo, the increase in meds really seems to be making him more comfortable. He is now putting himself to sleep and then waking around 6 am, having a bottle then going back down for another 2 hours. For naps, I can put him in his crib and he will fall asleep on his own. The only issue, is that it is taking him a long time to fall asleep for bedtime, sometimes almost an hour. He is not fussy, he will just play in his crib and then fall asleep............but what that means is that he is only going to bed at like 9:00 pm and then he doesnt want to wake up any earlier than 8:30 am.
Does it sound to you like he is UT for bedtime when he first goes down and that's why he is playing in his crib for so long before going to sleep? He is having approx. 4 hrs A time before I attempt to put him down, so I really thought that he should be tired.
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It sounds like UT but after 4 hours of A time I would think that is enough. What does his EASY look like now?
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8:00 am - wake (used to be 7:30 am, but is slowly creeping later, I assume due to the later bedtime)
11:00 am to 12:00 pm - nap 1
3:00 pm - 4:00 pm - nap 2
8:00 pm - bedtime..........but he doesn't actually go to sleep until 9:00 pm some night
I am starting to wake him at 7:30 am starting tomorrow. Even if I was to cut the am nap by 45 minutes and push it out, to say 11:30 pm or 12:00, then I think his pm nap will occur too late in the day.
If I was to try to do one nap at 12:00 pm (which I am pretty sure he could make it no problem) and he woke at say, 2:00 pm then I could put him to bed at 7:00 pm, but then he would prob wake up at 6:00 or 6:30 the next day, and then I am pretty sure that he wouldn't be able to make it to noon before having a nap. So, I guess then maybe that could be a 2 nap day. It's such a cycle, everything I do today affects tonight and then tomorrow!!!
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It really does. DS is really similar to DD. Although she can't make it past 10am regardless of how long she has been up. For example, she got up at 7:45 but was beyond ready for a nap by 10:00. I think if he seems to be able you can try for one nap. That might help bedtime and you may be surprised by the wake up time. :)
When do you start back to work again? Is you daycare provider adaptable for nap times?
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I'm actually working now :( They have been very good at being flexible, but the other person in the office who does accounting is going on Maternity Leave the beginning of September and things won't be so flexible.
DS goes to a home-based daycare and the woman who looks after him is great. She will do whatever I request..........wants to keep things as consistent btw home and daycare as possible. We have still been doing the 2 naps there as well, I just told her 2 weeks ago to cap the morning nap at 1 hr because he used to sleep 1.5 hours in the am and 1.5 hrs in the pm and I haven't updated her since because I'm not sure what he should be doing ??? Might try 1 nap on Friday and the weekend and see how it goes (I work tomorrow and Thursday).
Today he did 45 mins in the am (after only 3 hrs of A time) and then 45 mins in the pm (after 3.5 hrs A time) and then he went to sleep 4.25 hrs later. It took him about 30 mins to fall asleep in his crib........no tears, just lots of "singing" to himself, standing and sitting and playing with his lovies. I stayed in the room with him, sitting within view of the crib. It's the shortest amount of time that he has settled himself yet. We will see how the day (a tad too little sleep I think) translates for NW and EW...........will update tomorrow.
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That is great that they are flexible and that the home daycare is so on board. DD will also be in a home daycare with a former nanny. It will be just DD and the care provider's daughter who is only a week younger than DD during the day. Hopefully that will make it easier to be flexible and she has already said she will do whatever I ask in regards to DD.
Anyway, that is great about the naps. Did he go down independently for the naps as well as bedtime? How did he seem after the short naps? I'm crossing my fingers for no NWs for you :)
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Sounds really nice where your DD is going for childcare. It's nice to have just the 2 of them, lots of attention.
The short naps yesterday definatley led to OT. He went down pretty easily for bedtime, in 30 mins total (bottle plus playing in crib). Then he woke up an hour later and then had an EW of 5:30 am this morning. Sooooo, no short naps today, LOL. He had an hour nap and an hour and a half. Hopefully not too much. He went down for bed tonight in about 40 mins. He is usually going to sleep independantly for naps, but not always. I think that my timing with his schedule is the reason that naps aren't independant yet. I ALWAYS seem to be putting him down either UT or OT still. I'm honestly still not seeing a whole lot of cues, but I'm only with him 2 full days out of the week now because of work.
I'll let ya know how it goes tonight after the longer naps today.
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That sounds like about what DD gets total during the day. I honestly don't see many cues at this point either. I need to just watch the clock and put her down when I think she is/should be getting tired. Sometimes she will start to get more whiny and I know it's time but that is really it.
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Last night was much better. He did wake around 12:00 and was quite upset and I picked him up and settled him and then put him back in his crib awake and he fussed for a few minutes but then fell back asleep himself. Then he cried out at around 3:00 am, and then fussed a little, but with me beside him giving him some reassurance, he did fell back asleep without me even getting him out of his crib. Then, he did stir in the morning, around like 6ish......but I just let him settle back down by himself and he went back to sleep and I woke him at 7:15 so that I could get him ready so I could go to work.
Today, he was at his grandma's and didn't get enough daytime sleep, so I have a feeling that our night won't be as good as last night. He napped for about 40 minutes this morning and 1hr10 this afternoon. He was about 40 mins short.....but he did get to sleep at 7:45 pm (fell asleep in like 10 minutes at bedtime), which is about 45 minutes earlier than he has been for the last couple of weeks. Anyway, fingers crossed.
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That's great. He is really starting to settle well on his own. Once you get to the point where you can settle them without picking them up I don't think it is long before they won't need you at all.
Maybe you'll be surprised. Maybe less day sleep will mean he sleeps more deeply. Fingers crossed ;D
Are you still going to try doing one nap tomorrow and the weekend?
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I'm gonna see how tonight goes and then make the call for tomorrow. I think I will end up keeping 2, he seems to be needing them now. I think now that his night sleep is regulating a bit, he is more or less on a similar schedule to your DD, only he seems to need a tad more A time in the am or he will refuse or short nap. I am feeling good about keeping what we have going right now for a little while longer so that I can continue to watch it........am starting to gain some insight ex: 2x 45 min naps will equal evening waking and EW, that his "nights" are approx 12 hrs long (including the NW of course)......
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That seems to be the same here as well. I wonder if all the NWs were because she wasn't napping long enough but I couldn't ever get her to nap longer. She is now doing about 2.5 hours during the day rather than the 2 that she was getting and is sleeping better. She is back to sleeping for 12 hours (including the NWs) whereas she was only doing 11 hours before. I think she was just OT but we couldn't get out of it.
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Last night was AMAZING......he went to sleep very quickly at bedtime (asleep by 7:45 pm) and then slept until 6:00 am, had a bottle and then slept until 7:20 am.
Soooo, he did 2 naps today.....one was 1hr10 and the other was about 40 mins. I would have liked to see the second nap be a little longer, but it took awhile for him to get to sleep and I didn't want it to go too late.
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That's great. I'm glad the short naps didn't make for a bad night. Are you starting to move closer to the door yet or waiting a bit still?