BabyWhispererForums.com
SLEEP => Sleeping For Toddlers => Topic started by: *Jo* on August 07, 2010, 22:21:31 pm
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Hi everyone,
we are currently going through hell and back with sleep regression and canines cutting through so I thought it would be a great idea to have a support thread while we all go through this. Im in much need of some support with Caleb. I cry pretty much every day at the moment, my poor DH is really confused as well. We are having semi ok nights with a few NW's and EW's but its the naps that are messing up, we have nap refusal every single day, we may get 10mins in the car but thats it, as soon as the car stops he wakes up. We are doing Wi/Wo for about an hour each time before we generally ahve to get him up for lunch or dinner because thats how messed up our day is.
Nothing seems to be working, I cant APOP, I walked him in the stroller for an hour the other day and he just cried most of the way, hes exhausted! patting isnt working anymore and he wants that SO BAD. the other night we had two NW's that lasted two hours each and then he was up at 5.40am so a 9 hour night. we are medicating as much as we can for the canines but boy this is hellish!
If anyone has any info on what goes on developmentally at 18 months that would b helpful to know as well.
So hop on board and join the 18 month crazies express!!!!
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Hiya, can't stop too long just now but will be jumping aboard to join you! I've recently been posting about 18 month sleep regression as our sleep going all over the place, gradually getting worse over last couple of days, the NW & EW fun has begun, today we spotted the canines in the gums so bracing ourselves for the worst now ::)
Have read your posts about what you're going thru at the moment, big HUGS! I hope can be some support to you and others as we battle thru 18mo/canine stage, will be back again soon but for now I need to get a bit of sleep before tonights fun begins xx
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welcome on board Caz2107 :)
at the moment we are 1 hour 40 mins into Wi/Wo for trying to get a nap. its just not happening... anyone else have this as well? how long would you expect Wi/Wo to take really??
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Hiya. Wow its great to know its not just me going through this, although my DD doesn't seem too bad when compared to how Caleb is. Hopefully a bit of mutual support can help us get through this! I'm just trying a new routine to up her sleep during the day as shes been getting OT on one nap, but these teeth are messing everything up. I'm 5 months pregnant and work 4 days a week too so am shattered!!
Sorry I can't help on how long to WI/WO for, we've only just started doing it ourselves. Quick question though - what does APOP stand for?
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Accident Parenting On Purpose ;)
well we stopped at 2.5 hours with Wi/Wo, problem is with a spirited boy it just doesnt seem to work anymore. Hes now been in bed asleep for the night since 4.45pm as we had NO nap resulting today
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Hi all, I am not sure if I should join this thread as I haven't got good news as DD's problems started when she was 18mo but she is now 19 mo and I have still not got to the bottom of her issues. She has got all of her canines though so I am wondering if her molars are on the way, maybe just because I want there to be an answer. We have been having NWing and EWing for a few weeks now and DD is also taking ages to drop off at bedtime and for some naps. I am feeling tired but at least I am not pregnant like you SpecialKiwi so I shouldn't really complain.
Calebsmummy - I am also not much help with WIWO as I can never do it for long with DD. If she gets worked up it disturbs DS and then I have two screaming non-napping toddlers. I end up getting DD up if she cries loudly and trying to put her down again a few minutes later. You poor thing having all of that nap refusal going on and APOP not working either. I would be going out of my mind. I hope today is a better day for you.
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Calebsmummy - again not going to be much help with WI/WO as we've tried in the past but it just seems to get Dylan more irate! either that or he thinks its a game ::) but well done you for sticking at it, you're obviously a lot stronger and a lot more patient than me!! I would have caved within the hour!
Just thinking aloud, do you think Caleb may have developed a little bit of cot adversion?
How does he seem when he is up and about, is he happy enough (albeit tired)?
Over past week we've had a few days of only 15/20 mins nap too, can't APOP him in car as will wake as soon as we move him, grrr, and even if he's only had a short sleep he won't sleep again no matter how many times we offer him the chance :o so on days like that i'm just going with it and putting him to bed earlier like you, (its bad but I just don't have the energy to fight him to try and get him to nap :-\) and he copes well with OT luckily plus it seems on the short nap days we'll get a 11.5/12 hr night out of him with the occassional NW of course ::) but seems to re-set him just enough to get him thru the next day x
SpecialKiwi - first, congrats on the pregnancy :) any chance you could post how you're adapting your routine please? would be interested to get some ideas x
twinmum1 - do you think your DD sleep needs have dropped a bit? maybe a little routine tweak would get rid of those horrible NW & EW x
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Thanks caz2107. I've got another thread a little way down about whats going on with DD. Shes nap transitioning as well as growing canines so we're having lots of OT fun, NWs, EWs etc. I'm now switching her back to 2 naps a day, with a short 45min one at about 10am and a longer one in the afternoon at about 1.30/2pm, where I let her sleep for as long as she likes and she has averaged 1 1/2-2 hrs for the last three days (seems like soooo much when compared to you Calebsmummy!). Shes been on this for 4 days, and we've had two good nights but still 5am wake ups (like this morning!) and one really bad night. Shes back at daycare today (we're on NZ time) and she never sleeps as well there so things are bound to get a bit messed up again. Ah well.
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We had a horrible sleep regression that I posted about at 18 months (lasted 6-7 weeks in the end) - we do seem to be out the other side now though - still EW much more than before but that's it - A bit of hope for you guys? (I hope)
XXX
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I've made this a sticky for you girls - so it's shot to the top of the page!!
Will be back to post later ;)
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Well I have no idea what I'm doing anymore! Its obvious today that OT has crept in, I've been trying shorter A times still but longest nap we've had is 1hr yesterday and thats the best in days and then he wakes up acting UT, can OT look like UT? We're still getting couple of NWs in the night too :-\
I walked him in stroller for 1.5hr earlier as he looked so knackered but he wasn't having any of it, its like he's immune to APOP these days :o he's asleep now so i'm keeping my fingers crossed for a looooong nap to catch him up but I know thats wishful thinking!
With the teething - do your LO's still like to have something to chew on? Dyl is chomping away on his fingers like a mad man, i have given him a variety of things to chomp on but he doesn't appear to be too keen on any of them, just wandering what you use if anything now they're older xx
How's it going for the rest of you lovely ladies? xx
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Oh no caz2107, that sounds really confusing. We've had not too bad a night here. Daycare forgot to put her down early yesterday (grr) but she still had two naps from 10.50 for 45mins and then an hour from 3pm, so I'm not too concerned. Gave her a slightly earlier bedtime at 6.30pm instead of 7, and only had to get up to her once to give her pamol at 1.30am, before being woken by her shrieking at 4am! Not sure what was going on, but she nodded off again by 4.30am and slept till 5.30am, woohoo! (how sad is it that I think 5.30am is a sleep in these days?!)
Shes a box of budgies this morning and doesn't look tired for a nice change.
DD has her fingers and her silkie/blankie to chomp on, she isn't really interested in any teething rusks or anything else for that matter either.
How long did he end up napping for?
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Amazingly we got a 2 hour nap ;D we only ever usually get a 1.5 on a normal day so he must have really needed it, woke up really happy but then cried and got upset as soon as i took him out so not sure what the deal is with that :-\ but on another plus side he was asleep tonight at about 7.15, yay, I'm hoping its the start of getting back on track but will put money on us all being up half the night! :P
how sad is it that I think 5.30am is a sleep in these days
;D
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i hear ya sisters! after a week of no naps we did manage to get a 50min morning nap yesterday (i had to pat him for the first 20 mins of it) and then a 25min carnpa in the evening with a 6.15pm bedtime, then we had about 4 wakings and one 4.10am waking that lasted 30mins with Wi/Wo, then he slept 20mins, woke up again, it took 15mins of walk in walk out again and he slept another 15mins and was up for the day at 5.35am :( what a night!
He also has some sort of tummy bug though so thats not helping things, weve had about 5 lots of explosive diarrhea since the 2.30am wakeup yesterday morning where it spread all through his PJ's and bed :(
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Hi great news about the nap, Caz. Let's hope you get a repeat performance tomorrow. I am not sure if I need a routine tweak or not but I am experimenting with earlier naps and bedtime to see if it helps. DD is a real creature of habit though and has decided right now that singing and chatting in her cot for ages is the way to go. Is it OT or just having a nice time? I shouldn't grumble though because at least I can now leave her room without a meltdown, plus she had a good night last night. I just woke repeatedly to check that she was asleep. Why do we do that? When teething DD chews on her lovies in her cot and otherwise anything she finds that she knows she shouldn't have, particularly pieces of rubbish she finds in the park, for example, an old pen today ::).
she's a box of budgies this morning
Kiwi- I love that expression! It conjures up a great picture. It is wierd how sometimes LOs are so chirpy when you think they must be knackered. Here's hoping that you get a longer unbroken stretch of sleep tonight.
Calebsmummy - great news about finally getting some naps, what a relief! Perhaps you are turning the corner a little. You must be feeling wrecked after all those NWs though. Poor little man with a tummy big too, just what you didn't need. I hope it is only a 24hr bug.
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Well I knew we'd pay for the long nap, he was wide awake at 5.30 this morning ::) altho no NW's! He hasn't seemed too bad on teething front today so his mood had been pretty good apart from obviously a bit tired, he had a pretty solid 1.5hr nap over lunchtime and fell asleep by 7.15 again tonight so just got to wait and see what is in store tonight ;)
Calebsmummy - sorry to hear he has a tummy bugs, lots of get well vibes your way, but sounds like your making good progress now :-*
DD chews on her lovies in her cot and otherwise anything she finds that she knows she shouldn't have, particularly pieces of rubbish she finds in the park, for example, an old pen today
:D I know its not a good thing but I'm SO pleased its not just my LO that does that, I'm sure he just does it to test how quickly I can run across the park after him
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Argh, if its not one thing! DD (and I) have had a terrible night, she's come down with a raging temp and is really ill, poor little poppet. So we were up every hour at least, then up for the day at 6am, although shes just gone down for a nap at 8.30am as shes just miserable. Off to the docs this morning as we're in the middle of a swine flu pandemic here and its really hitting hard. I soooo hope thats not what it is!
So any sleep training/routines are going to be out the window until shes better!
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I think with 18mths your not only getting the "sleep regression" but you're getting those AWFUL cannines too when very often they need a little more sleep. It does all seem to happen at once.
Hang in there girls, you WILL come out the other side, I promise.
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oh SpecialKiwi, so sorry to hear she is ill!! its no fun is it?? we are holding off the 18 month vaccines until hes completely through this, no need to add more to the mix!!
anyway as for us, i managed to get a 2 hour nap out of Caleb yesterday, Wi/Wo just isnt working, it usually always does after only one day so after a week of it and no naps i decided that I needed to get this kid some sleep no matter what i do to get him there! So yesterday he went to sleep (he found a dummy!! one that hasnt been used since he was 5 months old eewwwwww but he wouldnt let it go so fell asleep with one, usually he doesnt even fall asleep so i let it be) then he woke at the 50min mark and I went in and patted him back to sleep, he was asleep within 3mins and then i just held my hand on his back for the next hour!!!
I decided that this really is a regression adn it seems its right back to Newborn status!! I had to do this kinda stuff when he was newborn, so I kept my hand on his back and just observed... well he jolted ALOT so i kept the pressure on, a few jolts were so hard that he actually lifted his whole head up and looked at me but then i did a pat or two and he was back to sleep again. so it was a 2 hour nap in total. i felt it was worht it to stay in his room to help him get that sleep. and then he slept 12 hours last night without waking!! and i think he only woke because he had diarrhea again :(
so heres how our day went yesterday
awake: 5.35am
Nap: 10-12
bedtime 5.30pm - awake at 5.30am today
Hes so tired at 4 hours A time but i cant do 2 naps or we get a 10 hour night (plus we have to drive him in the car to get the 2nd nap) yet you cant do one nap on a 4 hour A time either :(
Yes Laura, this is a very unfair time in their lives!
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Phew, DD doesn't have the flu! Instead she has her very first ear infection, but in both ears, as well as a lovely pusy throat so she is now on antibiotics. Her temp reached 39.9degC this morning just before we went to the docs! Scary stuff. Antibiotics and ibuprofen are already kicking in and she had a huge 2 1/2 hr nap this afternoon and was pretty perky all evening, and went straight to sleep when we put her down at 7pm. Fingers crossed that tonight is better than last night!
Gosh Calebsmummy, that really does sound like serious regression. Good work on getting 2 hrs out of him though! So how does the regression theory work? Do they somehow forget how to put themselves to sleep so you need to completely retrain them? I hope it doesn't end up being too much hard work for you. Is he still sleeping/going down well at night?
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hes doing fantastic at night, Ive heard its not so much a regression in how to fall asleep but rather that their sleep needs drop or something but for some reason weve had real issues, the thing is hes been sick for two months before all this so maybe its just all that as well... who knows!
Today we only got a 1 hour 15min nap and I had to pat him back to sleep at the 40min mark but at least hes actually going to sleep now, it was complete nap refusal for awhile there and I was afraid we woulndt get it back to normal! one thing we started doing was having conversations with his teddy about sleep, so we would say "Oh Teddy, you slept all night last night, how wonderful! Im so proud of you, you must feel so good, you have so much more energy to play with Caleb now!" or "Teddy wants to sleep with you Caleb but he likes to sleep all night and doesnt like to be woken up, so if he sleeps with you then you ahve to sleep all night, if you wake up adn Mummy and Daddy are asleep then just ask Jesus to help you go back to sleep, he is up all night with you and will give you a cuddle" we did that last night and just before bed we tucked Teddy into Calebs cot and we got a 12 hour stretch so it might just have worked!
I tell ya what, these kids take in far more than we realise!
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I think their sleep needs drop a bit and also you kinda find that their A times don't quite fit what they really need. So they want less sleep but can't quite stay awake for the longer stretch.
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well weve made alot of progress here, we are having 11 hour nights and 1 hour 20min naps which is alot more than we were having last week, our only issue is that the 11 hours is stuck at 6.30-5.30am so we are just going to gently move it forward. but its tricky because as Laura said, the sleep needs drop and but then the A times dont fit! so its hard to get him to stretch a little extra to try and move the day forward because hes already haviong a tough time getting to that bedtime as it is.
The whole "Teddy" thing is really working. when we got a 11 hour night with no wakings I told them both how proud i was of them etc and then today he did a 1 hour 20min nap all by himself (I did W2S at the 30min mark for this) I didnt need to extend his nap at all. I was out at the time but when i got home i said to him "teddy called me on the phone because he was so excited and proud of you for having a long nap! I told him taht I was very proud of you too"
So at night time we give Teddy a cuddle and we tuck Teddy into the cot then I say to Caleb "Teddy's in bed, Now its your turn" we turn off the light, say our prayers, have cuddles and I whisper "now Teddy is already asleep so we must be very quiet and go to sleep quickly, I will see you in the morning sweetheart" and he goes straight to sleep, none of this hysteric crying at naptimes and bedtimes that weve been having.
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Great progress Jo!! Well done Teddy!
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Jo, I am so glad that you found something that is working :)
Hurray for Teddy :)
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How is it all going now Jo? I hope you've managed to put this phase behind you. I'm having the major guilts, my little girl has been waking up earlier and earlier to start the day, which is getting exhausting. This morning she woke at 4.35am, we tried WI/WO for 10mins which only wound her up, so hubby persuaded me to leave her to cry, as it wasn't teeth, she didn't need changing, she'd had a drink etc etc. 10mins of torture later (I NEVER leave her to cry (tantrums aside of course), it was horrible), she went back to sleep and slept without a peep until 6.30am! Couldn't believe it. I did feel slightly better when she woke up happy as larry without any obvious lasting effects, but I hope we don't have to do much more of that.
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we are doing ok, we still have these 5/5.30am starts and only a 45min nap in the day with bedtime at 6.30pm. we cant seem to shift it any forward. However we have been having better success with Wi/Wo, this morning he woke at 5.20am and DH did Wi/Wo for 10 mins and he went back to sleep till 6am.
I wouldnt advise leaving her to cry, even if she did fall back to sleep, i wouldve gone back in at least once or twice just to reassure her, I think your little girl is the type that needs less intervention with Wi/Wo but still needs you to go in nonetheless.
With Wi/Wo Caleb gets wound up as well, but then he just suddenly stops and it goes quiet, he doesnt sound like hes winding down to fall back to sleep he goes from crying his lungs out to instant quiet, one morning it took 30mins of Wi/Wo but he went back to sleep at 4.30am. I would advise still working with Wi/Wo as opposed to leaving her to cry completely :)
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Specialkiwi - I agree with Jo otherwise you may end up breaking her trust and then you'll have a greater problem on your hands. Try and listen to whether it's a temper cry or an I need you cry and then you can decided whether to go in or not!
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Just a Q about WI/WO...DH is worried that it will seem like we are taunting him by going in and out again...maybe he won't be reassured but see it as a game or as something mean we are doing...does that happen? Anyone find that? I think we hit the sleep regression early quite frankly. 17 mths tomorrow and back to EW again!
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Hi Wendy, I have found that I can't use WI/WO with DS, he either thinks its a game or gets more upset every time I leave, basically I think it just pee's him off! ;)
we find that after initially calming him by putting a hand on his back or similar, then by sitting in his room just with a leg/foot in view so he knows we're there and can talk to him if needed works, and then when he is nearly asleep, slip out but leave door ajar till he's fully asleep...
saying that tho, reading the boards a lot of people have a lot of success with WI/WO so maybe it depends on each LO, maybe give WI/WO a go to see how he reacts....sorry just realised that this probably has been no help at all :P ::)
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Wendy, I thought the same thing but we have had some good success with it. I say try it, what have you got to lose? He's already waking early as it is. If it doesn't work then try something else.
We are still having 5-5.30am wakings goo. To be honest he never woke this early for this long before he became sick and then hit the 18 month mark. He was always a 6.30-7.30 waked. If he did do EW they were usually go e within about a week, but this has been going on for 4 months! Although I do t even know if you can call it EW now that the sleep needs are so low
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Jo - has Caleb finished cuttin canines yet? Teeth often cause EWs here.
Wendy - are you going to try and get some lights??
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Yeah gonna get the lights on the go. We have lights on the timer - I guess we'll put them on at 5:45 for now. Then eventually I'll get the Gro-clock or something similar. I think the light coming on will wake him up the odd day he actually does make it until 6 - whenever that may be lol I am so worried about reinforcing his EW with light! Right now he plays in the dark most mornings until we get up. Except when he's still really tired, then he just yells and cries.
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Wendy, from reading your other posts it sounds as though you and I have exactly the same sort of questions!
I have the Gro Clock on order, should be here early Sept and I can't wait. That said, we managed to get 11hrs out of her last night, with wakings only at 3am (resettled really quickly), then 4.40am (bit of persuading, white noise and music before she resettled) and 5.20am (resettled herself after a few minutes of very loud Uh-Ohs and turning her music on!) and up for the day at 5.45am.
I've only been averaging 5 hrs broken sleep a night though as I'm getting a bit stressed lying awake waiting for her to wake up, as well as the new baby using my bladder as a trampoline all night, so things aren't very pretty from a pregnant, hormonal, overtired mummy point of view. I've actually called our local baby whisperer for an appointment on Thursday to see what she suggests. A friend who was also having probs with her 18month old is having huge success since seeing her, so fingers crossed!
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Wow you guys have a local BWer who does consultation? Where are you living? hehe Let me know what she says!
We are using the timer with lights, my thread is here for a long frustrating read hehe:
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=177156.0
I might buy the Good Night Lite or get MIL to bring the Gro-clock over from UK - she might be coming in October for a visit.
But really can't say it's all due to an 18 mth regression because he's been doing it forever!
However, last 2 nights we had screaming NW, but we didn't have to go in, he resettled himself. But something is waking him...? It's not OT - I mean I guess it could be but don't see how? He's typically getting as much sleep as he ever did.
5 hrs a night is not enough for you, (((hugs))) hope things improve soon.
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How's it all going girls?
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Well I'm not sure if this is still related to the 18 month issues but we are still having short naps which lead to early bedtime which leads to early wakeups. Example is yesterday
Awake 6am
Nap 11.25-12.10
Bedtime 6.15pm
Awake 5.25, wi/wo, back to sleep and awake again at 5.40am
We just can't get out of this mess! I've done earlier bedtime, later bedtime but it's these short naps that don't get us through to a later bedtime! I can't cut nights shorter or we would be up at 4am!
Any ideas??
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Oh no, Jo with all you have going on :-( I thought things would be better now. What was he like when you were away? Are those teeth in yet? (((hugs you poor darling)))
Well you know I'm a radical kind of gal and I would do a set time of 12 noon nap and 7 bedtime until he snaps out of this, period. No A time shifting, no compensating for his weird nap structure, just continuing to be consistent until he gets himself in order. That may not be that helpful since I don't live with Caleb or know what he's like during the day, but really, I think at his age consistency more than anything is probably going to help his body clock.
I think it might be time for the lights on a timer for you guys. It really seems to be doing 'something' here. So far it's been eerily good. Waiting for the shoe to drop but while I'm waiting for that shoe I am getting good sleep!
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DH thinks the same as you Wendy, set naps and set bedtime. All three canines are through, though he could be teething the fourth, he was awful cranky yesterday, I put him to bed early cos I just couldn't deal with it anymore, I have an awful ear infection for which I'm heavily doped up on pain mess so I can't deal with much from Caleb at the mo and of course he's wanting my attention all the time cos I've been gone for so long! I didn't want to start the light timer just yet because we are moving house in about a week (if we can find anyplace by then week!) and I thought it's gonna be tough implementing the light as well as shifting house. One thing I have noticed with Caleb though is that he LOVES order. If he builds blocks they have to be stacked in a line, if he plays with his trains they have to be lined up in a straight line etc, so maybe he's like me and needs his day in a certain order too? Or maybe he's OCD??? Or maybe I'm just going nuts!! Lol!
Here's the weird thing though, while I was away he was sleeping till 6.30/7am doing 12-13 hour nights on a one hour nap or even a 1.5 hour nap if he was in the car. I come back and it's back to 5am-6am starts and 45min naps, what's with that?
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just an update to let you all know, weve got no NW's and no EW's however we are still stuck on short naps but we are doing set naptimes and bedtimes now so this is what our days currently look like:
awake anywhere between 6.30-7am but we dont get him up until 7am
naptime 12/12.30 for 40-60mins (GRRRR)
bedtime 7/7.30
and thats what we have so all that horrid stuff we were going through with the Nw and Ew i think were 18 month issues, we solved it with the lights on a timer. we had an oopsie the other night because I accidentally left him in a cloth nappy (that happened to be one of the thinnest ones weve got) overnight and he woke at 5.15am soaked through and of course wouldnt go back to sleep, took three days of gradually pushing wakeup and bedtime back using once again teh lights on a timer but we are back to 7am wakeups which we are happy with :)
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Great news Jo!
Everything sucks here so I hope we can post the same kind of good news soon.
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Hello club I hoped I would never have to join.
Well Marlow is full on nap resistant. Every single nap is a battle that can take no less than an hour to win.
Sucks.
I've tried two naps for weeks now in an attempt to get her to catch up on her OT but it rarely works. If I get her down for one then I can't get her down for another. It's only worked one time in all these weeks. Yesterday it took me an hour to get her down for a morning nap and I foolishly woke her thinking that I could get her to take a PM nap. Nope.
She refused and went to bed at 630 but fell asleep at 650pm.
I tried for 45 min to get her to sleep this morning and she was tired but refused. All APOP is out the window too. The car may be my only hope at this point. She's in the crib now doing head stands and crying/whining. I had to remove all her lovies because she was jacking with them so much it was preventing her from sleeping.
I feel like we are in a boat that has a small leak. For every bucket of water that I scoop out another two leak in.
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Sharon I see you a 45 min nap trial and raise you a 1 hr 10 mins. Yep he has been fighting his nap for 1 hr 10 mins now. We are back in some kind of weird EW/OT cycle here. Not sure how we got here.
He has stamina, I have to give him that much.
Is Marlow still EW too?
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She has her good days and bad days. I think if this is all still happening after our vacation then I'm going to lock her down on a set nap time and bed time and ride the wave of EW/NW that will surly follow until she sorts herself out. I've heard of other moms doing that and they said it can take about 2 weeks until it all clears up.
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I'm not there yet with DS2 but I can clearly recall going through this with DS1. We ended up doing a lot of naps on the sofa as he would no longer go down in his cot. Can't remember how long this lasted thought, sorry.
Re nighttimes I can recall it was like a switch going off. Boxing day (26th Dec for non Brits!) he went to sleep fine, 27th Dec he screamed like someone was doing something awful to him. I didn't know then what i know now so cue 2 weeks of me laying on the floor next to the cot. Till I realised he was playing me, messing about and giggling at me on the floor. So I found out about WIWO and within 3-4 days it was problem solved.
Not that he went to bed without a peep, he had his moments but because he knew what was going to happen eith WIWO it was relatively painless after those first few nights.
Good luck and stay strong everyone.
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Sharon what sort of day does your Lo have?
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Laura,
Her schedule was...
Awake 530am (if she STTN)
Nap 1130/12 to 1/130pm
Bed 730
But I was pushing her here and there and it all caught up to me. I failed to realize that I should have moved her bedtime to 630/7
I tried for weeks to get her down for two naps but now if I give her a 20 min snooze in the am then I can't get her down for a pm nap.
Now she is
Awake 530
Nap 1030 -12
Bed 630/7
I know. The afternoon A isn't doing her any favors. A CN is out of the question. She will not do it even in the car.
I've resigned to the fact that her A is about 4.5 to 5 hours right now but it was at 6 before she fell apart. I've tried the 20 min am and the only day I got her to take a PM nap she had a 2.5 hr A and it was a struggle to get her down.
I know that if I could get 2 or 3 days of her taking two naps with early bedtimes then she would be good but every day is a struggle.
Then there is days like today. I scheduled DD1 doctor appt at 1020am over a month ago b/c at the time Marlow was wide awake. I couldn't cancel it or else I'd have to wait another 2 to 4 weeks to get back in.
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Have you got a thread going on the toddler sleep board? I would say try sticking with a near 11am nap and a 6/6.15pm bed and see what happens.
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I did and the general advice was to get her to bed early since 2 naps wasn't working. I continued to post but people stopped responding.
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=177647.0;all
She STTN last night but woke at 530. I can attempt a 20 min nap at 10am but that hasn't always worked lately. I looked back on my posts and on Sept 8th she took 2 naps but I didn't post what times she went down. I know her middle A was 2.5 hours and I remember that she was a bit OT when she went down. I think her first nap was at 10amish. I may give that a try today even though I've been trying and have only succeeded once.
Do you know the supposed definition of insanity? Doing the same thing over and over expecting a different outcome. That's how I feel with this 2 nap business.
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She's teething or not though?
I would start the lights on a timer or pick up a gro-clock or something similar. Her nights are good IMHO, I don't think with a bedtime that early you can expect a later wake up - 10.5 hrs is pretty typical for a lot of kids really.
I also think her 10:30 nap is too early, there is no incentive for her to stay in bed longer in the morning.
If it were me, and oh how it is lol, I would not do 2 naps. I just don't think it's helping her now.
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She's got something going on with her upper molars (I believe) but I don't see anything anywhere yet.
It's 10 am and I just put her in the crib to see if she will fall asleep. I'm giving her 10 min to see what she does. If she isn't asleep in 10 min then I'll get her out. Before we went to a solid one nap a day she was sleeping an 11 to 11.5 hr night. That was rare. Her nights have always been 10.5 hours on average.
If she doesn't fall asleep here soon then I'll put her back down at 11/1115 am.
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I agree with Wendy, stick with the one nap at around 11am and see what happens. I remember those going insane days trying for 2 naps that just wouldn't happen!
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Keep us posted, I think eventually you can just start tacking some time on to the nap, i.e. move it to 11:15/11:30 then forward. With good nights she should be able to handle that. Then you can move bedtime out. You'll get there. But just like me, you may only ever get 10.5 - some kids are built this way despite our repeated attempts to shake it out of them lol
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PHEW! She went down at 1130 and slept until 1pm. I'll still aim to get her into bed by 7pm tonight.
She may very well be a 10.5 hr a night and a 1.5 hr nap kid. My DD1 was a solid 1.5 hr napper and never changed to a longer nap.
I also think that I worry about her "not getting enough" night or day sleep b/c I see so many other Mom's talking about how their LO sleeps 12 hr nights and 3 hr naps. It makes you question if your LO is getting enough sleep.
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I personally would probably aim a bit earlier, 6hrs is still quite a long A time. Maybe 6.30pm?
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I can aim for 630pm. Tomorrow we are leaving for vacation and we have a 5 hr drive. I know from past experiences that she will short nap in the car. I'm hoping to be on the road by 1030 or 11am so she will sleep then we will break for lunch. Hopefully she will conk out in the car again later in the afternoon.
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Guys, I just want to know what I should do with bedtime. Do you find it's better to stick to a set bedtime regardless or flip-flop it around depending on the day? I am wondering if our moving bedroom around is hindering not helping. We are still getting those short nights. Last night was my ooops, after he did a 3 hr+ nap which we even had trouble waking him from, I let him stay up, I was curious to see when he'd get tired and crash, in the end he never yawned, never gave any sign of being tired, but kept falling and cracking his head on things :-/ Which led to a quick sashay into bed and he was out by 8:20. Well 4:30 a.m. rolls around and he woke crying then went back to sleep until 6.
Today we had our first 2 nap day in about 5 months, both in his crib, that's how tired he was! I won't make the late bedtime mistake again! So all those who say your kid wakes early because you put him to bed too early, I invite you to come over and witness what we go through!
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We tend to stick with bedtime within 15mins. Partly due to not being able to get him in bed much earlier but even at weekends we don't tend to stray far from that. Given that we know Finn likes routine I would be really reluctant to mess with times too much.
I am wondering if our moving bedroom around is hindering not helping.
I assume you mean bedtime ;)
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lol yes I do mean bedtime
See this is what being up at 4:30 does to a person!
Well he did just over 1.5 hrs for the second nap so we are doing a 7:30 bedtime. I think I agree, within 15 mins seems to give us the best results overall.
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ARGH, I am jumping on here. I am not sure if this is what it is but DS will be 18 months in a week. After months of STTN without a peep DS has resorted back to NWs. Usually in the second half of the night, last night at 1:45am (changed his overflowing diaper, he was talking jibberish to me, and fell back asleep in about 10 mins) and 5:30 am where he tossed and turned till 7, slept for a half hour and was up again at 7:30!
We did have colds in the house this past week which we are all mostly over.
Typical schedule is
Wake: 7:30
Nap: 12:45 - 3
Sleep: 8pm
Just can't figure out these NWs! Could it be sleep regression? He often whimpers in his sleep then wakes full out crying or screaming. Sometimes fake crying to get us to come in the room :/
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Hi there Shaunna, how's it going? It sounds like discomfort rather than a sleep regression. Residual illness or teeth is my bet.
Have you tried a 1 p.m. nap? Only thing that strikes me is his nap is a tad early for his waketime and length of night.
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Hi Wendy, I suspect discomfort too but cant figure out for what!! I can't get a look at his back molars but sticking my pinky in the gums do feel soft but nothing is coming through yet. Could it be too early for 2-year molars?
NWs have decrease4d, though I do hear him whimpering periodically. But the past couple of days I have gotten short naps and EWs.
So I really don't know I guess!!
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These final molars are elusive; Finn started and stopped then started then stopped...I felt one bottom left then it disappeared! So it's not too early. Sounds like he got OT and so in that case I would move the nap back to 11:30 to see if it helps get him back on track. And meds before bed or a DF of meds to see if it helps.
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Tried for an early bedtime the other day and he slept a 12.5 hour night!! So obviously he needed to catch up from some OT. Thanks for your help. I am sure I will be back with legitimate sleep regression!! ;)
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We are still battling the 2-1. I'm SOOOO OVER IT! DD1 was STTN by this age and taking a 1.5 hr nap everyday at 1230pm. Now I'm starting to wonder if I try giving Marlow a set nap time and bedtime and see what happens. Someone had posted this in one of the 12-18 mo birth club boards but I can't find it now. She said she set the bed/naptimes and it was hell for 2 weeks but her LO finally settled into the schedule.
Currently her awake time is fluctuating. Today she woke at 5am. That's the earliest she woken in a while. Her teeth don't seem to be bothering her and I've stopped giving her meds for the last 2 days to see what would happen. While I haven't had any NW, she has EW the past two days. I will probably start up the meds again and see if things improve. I'm going to have to aim for 2 naps today. It's going to be tough since we have to get about 7 tree taken out of our backyard today. The wood chipper is going to be the problem.
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Things went to pot in our house too, it started with OT now he's ill with a sore red throat. And I know those teeth are back in there, messing things up somehow, waiting to pounce.
Why are you taking your trees out??
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We had Pine Bark Beetles in 2 of the trees. Pine trees don't offer much shade just pine cones and pine needles so we took them all out.
I've had better luck the last two days with Marlow. She's getting a 4.15 hr A, 20 min nap, 3.5 hr A, then 1.5 hr nap. She slept 1.5 hr yesterday and 1.15 today in the PM nap so I may have to adjust that down to 3.15 A before the PM nap. Anyway, I'm hoping to keep her in recovery mode until she starts waking at 630am. We have the stinking DST coming up and I want her caught up on her sleep when that hits.
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Hello, don't know if there is anyone out there currently experiencing the 18 month sleep issues but I am going through hell here! My boy is cutting his canines (3 on the go at the same time) and I am hoping against hope that it is why his sleep is so awful, He has never been the best sleeper but this is ridiculous! The other night he was up from 1 till 5 then started his day at 6.30. Last night was up from 2 till 5 then thank goodness slept in till 7.20 (big sleep in for us) before all these issues he was doing 7.30 bed, 6 - 6.30 wake up, 12/12.30 nap for 2 hours.
He has also dropped to 1 1/2 hour nap and try as I might I can't get him to do an extra catch up. Can it really be teeth causing all this mess? His night wakings are him moaning then quite followed by his hideous screaming he does when he is angry/wants something. Weird thing is I walk in and he automatically snuggles down, closes his eyes and basically pretends to be a sleep - I walk out and it starts up again! The other issue is it seems the terrible twos have started early and we are having mega tantrums - not sure if it is because he is so over tired or his new developments are causing the night wakings.
Any advice appreciated
Thanks
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It sounds like teeth to be honest and with the snuggling back down into bed, we had that as well, not sure what that was but I think a few mums have had success saying their key phrase at the door rahter than actually going in?
OT would seem to be the culprit and of course the fact that they are suddenly becoming little people with their own opinions on things too doesnt help! lol
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Thanks Calebsmummy, another hell night last night - up From 1.30am till 5!!!!!! I guess at least he slept 'in' until 7.20 but what with his other night waking at 11pm (which he fell back asleep from quickly thank goodness) I am utterly exhausted. Did walk in/out non stop and just stood at the door, he did calm down but 5 mins later was moaning again. He is having meds for teeth but who knows if that is really the issue! He is definitely cutting his canines but this seems so abnormal. I goggled sleep specialists this morn and am seriously considering it if it carries on!!!!!
If it is teeth do you think I should be doing wi/wo or just try comforting him? Whatever I'm doing now certainly isn't working!!!!!
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ok, for that kind of carry on I wouldnt suggest wi/wo, did you try patting him at all? this seems more than just sleep regression, I would try posting on the Toddler board for some one on one support for this. Whenever we had this kind of thing with Caleb we did whatever we could to get him back to sleep, even if that meant driving him in the car/giving him a bottle etc
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I would try posting on the Toddler board for some one on one support for this
Def do this. Lots of mums will see it then and can have a look properly ;)
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Hi All, reading along as we have also had some weird NW recently but usually straight back to sleep after a quick tuck in ... my guess SA but not 100% sure. Definately not to early for 2yr molars. Holly has all teeth bar 1 which is making it way through now and then she'll be done with all teething!
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Thx. Going to give the key phrase from the door instead of WI/WO a try tonight. Though I'm sure it will be sabotaged as we are barbequeing at my moms and then H will probably fall asleep in the car so no issues for her going to sleep at bedtime. And when she goes down well at bedtime she usually doesn NW or if she does she self soothes and we don't have to go in. Writing this now I'm think she might be a bit OT at bedtime ... since I've been working we have been getting her up at 6:30am and then only home around 6pm then its a mad rush for supper and bath and our supper etc. so by the time she gets to bed sometimes she's probably OT. Will make effort to get her down earlier too I think!
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I think we're hitting this now too.
A lot of it is teeth related. In the last couple of weeks his top canines have come down into position, although they're not through yet. And not only that I'm still waiting on his last molar (1st set) and a 4th bottom tooth that has yet to appear!
While the canines were moving around it was soooo hard to get him to sleep. I'd be outside his door listening. I cold hear he was trying so hard to get to sleep but then he'd just cry out in pain. Bless him he was so good through it though, even though it was taking 30-45 mins for him to finally drop off. I'd only go in if his crying became prolonged and he needed a bit of reassurance.
So anyway that's stopped now, he's going to bed fine. But in the last few nights he's been waking at various times, 1am, 3am, Sat night it was only 10pm! And I have to confess I've just been bringing him in with us as he's not settling at all, wont lie down, just sits up and screams and reached out for me. I do try but can't for too long as it wakes his brother up and then I have him to deal with as well. Big brother is playing up now too, but that's a whole other story, he's 5 and knows better!
None of us are getting much sleep at the moment!
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Hey
I haven't gone through every post so apologies if this has been answered. Firstly what is WI/WO?
My son is approaching 20 months and we are approaching our 4th week of VERY early mornings. I have tried later bedtimes, earlier bedtimes. Hotter baths, deeper baths. For about a week I had a fight to get him to sleep but he is now so tired even he doesn't have the energy to fight. He has one nap a day for 1-2 hours at late morning. Has done since he was about 1. At the moment he wakes at 4 and that's it! Will not have any of it. I have tried going in to put him to bed but he chases me out of the room, bathroom light on so it isn't totally dark. He has a stair gate at his door and all his toys up there so plenty to entertain himself. I have left a thing of water in his room for when he wakes and nothing! I do believe he has some teeth coming through as he does eat his hand, but this sleep fiasco has been going on too long to be solely teeth surely? I don't think I can cope with many more 4am starts. I am a single mum with a full time job and it's killing me. My house work is slowly getting more and more as i don't have the energy to do it which really irritates me!
Any suggestions greatly received. I will try anything.
Apologies for not reading through everyone's posts but I'm struggling that much I really don't think I have any advice that would help anyone.
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Hi there WI/WO is walk in walk out - and it is basically that! When your LO is upset and can't sleep - you go in and give reassurance and then leave.
Why don't you post your own thread on the toddler board and we can come and have a look and help you properly there ;)
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Can I please ask for some good luck for us tonight? I thought D was teething ( he was, cut his top canines relatively OK) and when he was waking we felll into the trap of bringing him into our bed
This was fine at first, served it's purpose and he didn't wake unless teething. But in the last couple of weeks he's been coming in at various times of night. And now he's not settling in our bed, he's spending 1-2 hours awake, throwing himself about the place and no one is getting any sleep.
But tonight we're getting tough. I'll stay with him for as long as he needs me, but he will not be coming into our bed.
This could take a while-eeeeeeek!
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I'm going to join this one, but my DD is only 16 months, not 18. She is getting her canines now, I can see the points, along with some molars (not the 2 year ones). And is just getting past a dreadful cold. Anyway, are all your LOs on this thread 18 mo? Because what we're going through is EXACTLY what I'm reading here, and we're not even 16 months (15.5). I'm wondering if she's just hitting this early, because her teeth are early, and I still have genuine sleep regression to look forward too, or what. I've tried APOP, WI/WO, no dice...still only 1/2 hr nap. I medicate for her teeth. Right now she's at least calm in her crib, and I'm leaving her until the normal time I'd get her up, but she woke after half an hour, screaming, wanted to pee (did that), wanted to eat (gave her a snack in the dark, sitting and rocking). At the moment, if I get her to bed by 6, she'll sleep until 7 and make up the time...just wish she'd take her nap instead!!!!
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Someone on here mentioned they told LO that "Teddy" wasn't getting enough sleep because LO wasn't napping, and that worked. Yesterday I told LO that HopHop (stuffed bunny) was really, really tired because she kept waking her up early from naps. She's on for 1.5 hrs nap today.
Don't know if that was the magic, or if changing the CD to one without the heartbeat, or if meds for teeth or what were the helping factor...but maybe it's that she cares, just a little, about Miss HopHop.
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Muddyfeet, that's so sweet!
We're on a downward spiral here. Night before last we got tough and it took an hour and fifteen to settle him when he woke at 3.30am. I was fine with that, ready for whatever it took.
Then yesterday he only had an hour nap, woke crying and from then until bedtime was just toddling round whinging and crying, or clambering all over me, wouldn't chill out and sit still. Not fussed on food either. Last night he woke at 1ish and it took an hour to settle him again. Then not even an hour later he woke again, but it only took 15-20 mins to get him back off. Woke this morning crying at 6.50.
He's just exhausted and so am I! I think he's coming down with something on top of everything else hence the 2 NWs last night.He's all clingy and teary, not like him at all, he's usually such a happy chap.
Just got to keep trying I guess.
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Hi there.... think I need to join this thread. Since my DS turned 18m he has decided bedtime is not for him. He rolls around in his cot, throws his toys out, gets upset they are on the floor, and generally just fusses. He is taking on average about 1-1.5hrs (some nights longer!) to go to sleep at night whereas just two weeks ago he was taking a minute or two to go to sleep!
I think this is his 'regression' behaviour. He sleeps okay (touchwood) through the night once asleep but still wakes at normal time. we have been having 9.5hr nights and the likes for the past couple of weeks. Naps are okay, they range anywhere from 1hr20 through to 2hrs which is the norm for us.
It's the bedtimes that are getting rather tiring....it's like he just can't seem to switch himself off. He's definately trying to. He's touchy btw. I have heard 18m is a huge development phase.
Anyway, will tag along and hear what others are going through :)
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Two days of 1.5 hr naps and 12 hr nights, thanks to longer morning A time and more regularity with the teething meds. Wierd about the A time, but I remembered her earlier 2 nap pattern she liked longer morning, shorter afternoon, and when teething her morning A time got a half hour longer before. So I tried it, since the shorter morning didn't work. We're giving the meds on a schedule now instead of when she seems to need them, on the principle that if she seems to need them, they've probably completely worn off an hour before and she's in serious pain, then becomes Miss Crankopottamus. So if we don't leave her in that hour of pain in between, we can stop the escalation. Bleah. Why can't things just stay regular? Stupid teeth.
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Sounds like progress!
We're ok here for now I think. A couple of nights where all I had to do was lay him down and he'd go right back to sleep.One night waking on Fri night and last night he slept through!
He's really perked up since Friday, seems much more like himself so hopefully things will be settled down for a while.
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Hi I am new to this website so not sure how to actually post a question but fingers crossed someone will se this and be abe to help me. My LO is 17 months since the age of seven months he has slept on his own at night time and at naptime ( i used the PU/PD and shush pat methods). I put him in his cot and then leave the room. he settles himself and falls asleep on his own. the last week and a half he has not wanted to stay in his cot is crying at night and naptimes. He has been teething and has a pretty bad runny nose etc, but this has never interfered with his sleep before, he is now waking at night frequently and will not settle unless i remain in the room, even if he does eventually fall asleep he is up again soon after. i have been up till 4 0r 5am these last few nights. what do i do..please please help!
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Definitely seem to be in this here... DS is 17.5 months and for a couple weeks now has been having NWs and/or EWs and then last few days shorter naps (1-1.5 hours instead of 2-2.5). He IS teething (one molar just came through, I can see 1.5 more and the canines are moving down too) and I'm sure it's developmental too. The past few mornings he's woken early after 9.5-10.25 hours. I can usually get him to lay back down for 10-20 minutes but that's it and I don't think he's actually dozing during that time. So with last night 10 hours 10 minutes and a nap only 1.5 hours today we're at well less than 12 hours overnight sleep instead of 12.5-13. NOT fun. And medicating barely seems to help...
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You guys are amazing for sticking with WI/WO, etc for so long. I've gotten into the bad habit of bringing my spirited 13mo into bed with me when he wakes in the night.....WI/WO isn't working anymore, he ends up screaming and choking himself on the crib rails to get out. We try to get him back in the crib, but it is exhausting. Gonna tackle after Christmas as we're going away for the holidays.
Anyways, I just wanted to tell you all that you are great Moms for caring so much about your children, and you motivate me to attempt some sleep training after Christmas. Kudos to you all!
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Hi all, just thought I'd jump over here in case I can help anyone - I'm in a similar situation with DD, who is 18.5mo. To cut a long story short it was 8 months of STTN followed by late teething, naughty AP from me (of bringing her into our bed) and now I'm trying to backpedal! If its of interest, this is the thread where I'm currently receiving priceless advice and support!
'18mo needs sleep retraining? First NWs now naps going wonky too!'
For us, her turning 18mo has coincided with first teeth really, so I can't be sure whether the regression would have happened anyway, but in a way it doesn't matter because I'd deal with it the same way.
I also wondered if any of you ladies had considered trying a groclock for your EWs? You can use them for night times and naps as well and there's a separate support thread for that. Some Mums have found their LOs respond better when they're a bit older then 18mo, but there are success stories for LOs as young as 15mo. I bought mine from Amazon and it was about £20 but a cheaper/simpler option is lights on a timer.
HTH
Louise
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Hi all,
I am just jumping on the bandwagon here because I am about to lose my mind with my 18 month old daughter. She has always been an awesome sleeper and its like a switch went off about 10 days go and she now only falls asleep with us in the room and wakes multiple times a night, and occasionally refuses her nap. I am exhausted and at my wits end. I am not sure what to do. My DH has started sleeping on the floor of her room so that when she wakes in the night he can easily comfort her, but last night she woke about 10 times and was not so easy to settle. She is a pain in the neck all day long and I am so frustrated!
Thanks for letting me vent. I also have a thread going on this page. Any advice welcome.
Dana
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It is so nice to know that what my DD is going through is normal! I thought I was going mad. My LO decided she will only go to sleep at night in my arms. She has always hated sleeping in my arms even when sick or teething, but suddenly she only wants Mummy. Being in the room isn't enough either, I made the mistake of picking her up to check her nappy and then she held on for dear life and I couldn't put her down. It is taking over 1 hour to get her to sleep. We will just have to keep on perservering! Good luck everyone.
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Reading all of this scares me to death because our LO has 4 molars coming in ALL AT ONCE so her sleep and her disposition are nightmarish right now. AND I'm due with Baby #2 in 10 weeks. Ahh, I'll be back, I'm sure. :)
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It's a relief to see that others are experiencing similar stresses with their 18 month olds....hugs to all of you first off! My LO's sleep regression started mid Jan when he got gastro bug then a cough/cold which kept him up at night. When he recovered he continued to wake at night and my husband and I brought him into our beds most nights as we thought that was the better and quicker way to get him back to sleep....which it's not b/c our LO nearly kicked us out of bed each night with all his rolling and squirming!!!!
THen...to top it all off, we've travelled to Australia to Canada for 6 weeks so his days and nights are turned around and now we figure....why try to fix anything now since we're going back to Canada in a few weeks, so when LO wakes at night he's right in bed with us.
Anyway, I feel I'm determined tonight to get my LO to fall back asleep in his own bed tonight and get him back to where he used to be before all this crazyness!!!! He used to be such a good sleeper and we got a little too comfortable with it and thought we had it all figured out...wow were we wrong!!!!! Fingers crossed!!!
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Good luck, LamMum! I think a lot of parents in your position would also feel justified in waiting to fix issues until all the travel is out of the way, but on the other hand sometimes dependencies get worse the longer they continue. It's tough to make those calls sometimes.
We'd also gotten into a pattern after sickness (since November!) of giving DD a bottle when she didn't settle herself for sleeps and last night was our first night of being prop-free. And it does feel good to have an independent sleeper :)
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Good for you Kiwi one! It does feel really good when your persistance pays off! Our nights have gotten better and he is sleeping through the night most nights or when he wakes, he has gone back to sleep in his own bed. My biggest challenge now is settling him down to sleep for naps but especially for the night. I do a wind down following dinner with bath, bottle, books, cuddles then night night. It all goes well until we get to the point where i lie him in his cot and he screams for half an hour to 45 mins!!!! It is exhausting! I think it may be seperation anxiety. At first I thought it was OT, which is might be, but I try putting him down at 7:30 so I think that's early enough. I feel like no matter what time I put him down, he's going to scream until 8:30 anyway. grrrrr, I am sure this is a phase which he'll get through...I hope!
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Marking my spot...sleep in starting get wonky!
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Hi girls - i was directed in this direction as i have a 10mo DS who is also experiening frequent NW and EW 5 am the past few weeks....!
Im wreaked, as he is teething but most of the teeth have cut through its the 5 am wake up that's killing me!! Im going to try white noise in his room tonight as i will try anything at all!!
He goes to bed fine at 7 pm no bother, he stirs approx 10 pm and then at intervals throughout the night! Usually a soother sorts it but then we have nights when its meds and a couple of hours of hair pulling out!!
This is a quick post!
But sleep dust for all tired parents out there - looking forward to our sucess stories
Claire xx
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Hi there, marking my spot as sleep going wonky here with 17 mo refusing afternoon nap but first nap is still about 10am.....getting increasing early wakings, today was 6.20am which is normally fine but as the clocks had only just gone forward overnight it was a 5.20 waking so only 10hrs sleep....
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Reclaiming my spot. That first night of bottle-free sleep was also the last. We managed to have her take only water in the bottle for a while but have gotten back into a pattern of milk at BT and NWs, which has gotten a little crazy coming up to the 18-month mark.
Is it a developmental thing that their sleep goes wonky at this age? DD is in the midst of her vocab boom and starting to put words together. She's often really scratchy during the day, too, and gets upset whenever she realises we're in another room. SA?
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Could be canine teeth? They usually sprout at around 18mths too and can cause havoc!
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Hi Lisa and Claire! I hope these links help!
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=163278.0
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=41952.0
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=112443.0
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Thanks Nini - spotted the first one but not the other two threads. L
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Oh--glad I found this, even if just for the support. My 19 mo DD spends her naptime playing in her crib and talking to her lovey. If I put her down early, she plays in there until she is OT, and if I put her down OT, she refuses to nap period. I can't seem to find the magic time window. This has been going on for over a month now. Right now I have a manic baby who is way OT but I cannot APOP her at all. We have a few NW but thankfully they are short in duration. She also can't make it past 5:30 pm without a major meltdown, which is difficult since I don't get her from the nanny (3 days/week) until 5:30. I am totally at a loss for what to do.
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Help! how did i miss the WI/WO Intro time!!!!!!
we progressed from light pressure on jakobs back and ssshhh to sitting in a chair in his room about 3m ago...hes 17m. I think we ended up leaving things late because he stopped sucking his thumb as his molars started coming in (about 3m ago too) but nevertheless he was still usually asleep in 10 mins.
wake : 6.30 (out of cot at 7am)
nap : working toward 1pm now unless we go in car around 11.30 after a busy morning. i can lift him out of car and into cot no probs atm. usually get 1 - 1 half hr
sleep : 7:15....sleep for 8:10 today
a month ago when his molars were all having a go together he started banging his head up the cot and wailing (awful blood curdling sound) and now he just talks....pretends his 2 'blankies' are talking (one is a flat bunny, one is a blanket with a winnie the poo attached)...wedges his blankies in the cot sides and generally messes about. taking 45 mins to settle
i started to walk out of the room if he began talking etc 3 nights ago and walked back in if he cried (this is backward wi/wo i think from what people have described????) and lay him down then sat down not facing him on the seat...if he talked i repeated the process. if he stays quiet i stay there and walk out when hes done his big sigh and lay quietly for 5 mins.
this is really eating into our night and DH gives up after 10 mins and leaves him crying so its down to me.
he is very clingy when im in sight, but i can go to work weds and thurs and he waves happily, blows kisses and doesnt get upset at all.
he is becoming super spirited, wont even sit still to read a book or watch tv on my lap, in fact hes like a jack in the box.
i think its developmental/ sep anxiety and teething thrown together. he may be OT...but wouldnt be if he went to sleep at 7:15!!!
any help and insight much appreciated
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Hi I was "sent"(hehe) here as my daughter is taking forever to get to sleep at night, no crying just playing for up to 2 hrs. She has been sick off and on for 3 months and now has a horrible rash that even the doctors don't know what it is. It's finally starting to heal but 90% she runs around in just a diaper as clothes rub the spots and it bugs her. She is also bringing in teeth left right and center, she has 5 (i think, could be more) coming in right now which one is a 2 yr molar. So I have a nacked, teething rashed up 17 month old that won't go to bed at night!
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Hi
Can i join in, Tyler is 18 months and after 13 months of no sleep, did some sleep training and we had about two months of blissful sleep. Then he caught a cough, we went on hols and he's moved up a class in nursery and he turned 18 months. Now he's a nightmare for napping and NW's. I've resorted to milk and meds as I think its his canines and its the only thing that will help him settle. I'm frsutrated that after all the hard work and he was sleeping beautifully its all gone wrong !!. Today he had 10 mins in the car and I can usually just move him straight to his cot, not any more its now my 2nd attempt at putting him down for a nap. Dont think its going to happen today and am dreading tonight as hubs is on nights !!! Why at 18 months does it allo go TU ???
Help....
Sarah
xx
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i started to walk out of the room if he began talking etc 3 nights ago and walked back in if he cried (this is backward wi/wo i think from what people have described?Huh) and lay him down then sat down not facing him on the seat...if he talked i repeated the process. if he stays quiet i stay there and walk out when hes done his big sigh and lay quietly for 5 mins.
we did this for 3 nights and it peaked at 45 mins and then suddenly improved. ive tried walking out straight away but it just gets him really wound up so we are sticking with sitting facing away from him. my theory for us is a little UT so we shortened the morning A and lengthened the afternoon A (just means i have to make sure we do 'something energetic' in the morning) and im giving meds 30 min before bed if he has his fingers wedged in his mouth! lol
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We usually do wi/wo in the middle of the night and check if she's to hot or cold, we always try that first, 9/10 this works for us but if not, we check to see if diaper is too full( if yes quick bum change), if Lo needs to middle of the night drink( if hungry a quick cup of milk). Then I shamefully admit I will get so fustrated that I bring Lo into our bed, where she will relax and calm down and just as I start to fall back to sleep she will sit up or shove me and say" go way mama" or start singing. Dh will put her back into her bed.
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thank heavens for this thread!!!!!!!!
katie has just turned 18 mths and omg nightmare! she's slept through since she was 8 weeks old and apart from the odd night here and there, she's gone 6.30pm - 7.30am without a peep!
her canines are coming through (i can see a bit of them) but I didn't realise, so I have been supernannying her (put her to bed, when she wakes 1st time, kiss cuddle and tuck her in. Any more wakings, no contact just put her back in bed) and feeling guilty incase her teeth have been causing it!!!!
she was refusing naps and bed, taking up to 2.5 hrs to go to bed! supernanny approach seems to be working and she'll now go to bed within 15 mins of WI/WO, but she is waking 4-5 times in the night :(
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I'm not dealing with any night waking at the moment but last night took forever for LO to finally fall asleep, she was in bed at 7:45pm( her usual bedtime) and didn't actually go to sleep till 10 pm!! She was up at 7:10 this morning so 9 hrs of sleep and I am paying for it today. Super cranky, temper just flaring and refusing meals, going to give her a nice long nap starting at noon. She just plays and plays in bed not crying so going in there really doesn't work as it just gives her more of a excuse to stay up. Now it's starting to affect her nap, it's taking her 30 mins to wind down to go to sleep when it usually takes less then 5 mins. I am starting to lose this battle ladies i can feel it!
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Hi ladies. Can I join?
DS is taking forever to fall asleep at BT and sometimes crying and asking me to sit beside the cot while he goes to sleep. I don't though as when I have tried it normally ends with him standing and laughing at me through the cot bars. We have been doing PU and WO to get him to settle indepedently which he has done since 6mo (minus several phases of bad sleep due to sickness, teething etc.). He is even resisting naps both in the cot and in the buggy (which has always been my AP secret weapon).
Thankfully we aren't having NWs or EWs yet. FX these won't start now I've written that!
I haven't read the whole thread but will go back and catch up with your stories soon I hope.
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so proud of jakob - we are doing WIWO and im only having to go in twice, he chats to his loveys a bit and then goes to sleep while im reading to DS1. this has given me a 3/4 hr extra of evening to my self and its made such a huge difference to my outlook :)
i think hes only just become mature enough to be alone in his room and happy with it...or is it ive been holding out 'just in case'. he can cope for about 20 mins in the mornings before crying, maybe 20 more if DS1 climbs in with him and reads to him for a bit (cute!)
5.30 is still our usual wake time so im generally out of bed completely by 6.00, but i can live with that. (at least i can get a load of washing on the line before school run :) )
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I think when they are OT or sick it is always a good idea to let them catch up. You can always get back to the set WuU time if you want when she is caught up. And we always get more sleep after imms.
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Hi
Can I also join, Ty has never been a good sleeper. I spent 3 nights sleep training him and he STTN for about 3 months. Then he got ill, chnaged rooms in nursery and it all went mad.
At the moment he goes out like a light, then wakes anytime between 1.30 and 3.30. If he wakes at 1.30 then he wakes again about 5. If he wakes at 3.30 then he's ok until 6.30 which is usual wake up time. At the moment I think its due to his 2 year molars as his hands are constantly in his mouth so he has meds before he goes to bed. When he wakes i've gotten into the habit of giving him whatever he has left from his nightime bottle (this can be as little as 2oz) as this is the only milk he has all day. But if he wakes again at 5 he has a 4oz bottle. I know i've made a rod for my back but until he's pain free I just cant see me sleep training him. I work full-time and hubs works shifts so we're constantly knackered anyway.
Ty is 21 months old so has been going on for a long time, but 18 months was the regression :-[
Sarah
x
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It's difficult not to get into bad habits when they're sick isn't it? I do think you just need to wean the NFs but as you say it's better to wait until he's through the teething.
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Hi,
I'm a bit confused, need some basics!! Where do I find out what all the letters stand for?? GW, Wi Wo and APOP - what are these and how do I them?
My 22 month old daughter has been having Night wakings (NW!) for almost 6 months now. She wakes up, cries and calls for a mummy cuddle (or daddy cuddle) - generally we go in, tell her to lie down, say "night night, bed time" and walk out, we don't pick her up at all. She sometimes falls straight back asleep with that little input (not always though!!) but I'd really like to get to the stage where she doesn't even wake up, or if she does, she gets herself back to sleep without us needing to go in. We have tried leaving her to see if she'll settle on her own but it just gets worse and then takes longer to settle (I don't want to leave her either) I followed all the BW tips so don't want to do controlled crying.
Any ideas anyone?
Thanks
Sal x
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Hi Sal I'm on my phone so can't post the link but if you go to the welcome read here first section at the top of the home page there's a post explaining the abbreviations. On the days when it doesn't work to just go in and tell her to go back to sleep what do you do to get her back to sleep? Do you think her routine is appropriate? How long is her nap?
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Hi Ali,
Thanks, I found the abbreviations page.. much easier now! On the days that it she doesn't go straight back to sleep, we just perservere.. keep going in and lying her down (or telling her to) and leaving her - if she's really unsettled we might stay in the room with her for a couple of minutes with a hand on her chest but she never falls asleep like that, we just wait til she's quiet and calm.. if she starts crying again we sometimes stand in the doorway and talk to her.. sometimes it takes a few times. Her routine seems pretty good - she has 1 nap during the day, anytime from about 11ish to 1.30 to put her down and she'll sleep for up to 2 hours (not usually less that 1 hour). Can get herself to sleep for naps and bedtime without too much difficulty. I'm having more difficulty about whether to go in or to leave her.. when she was younger we used to leave her if she wasn't crying properly but now she can talk we seem to go in when she asks for us.. I think we've created a problem for ourselves as now, if we don't go in when she asks it ends up in real crying and taking much longer to settle (only tried it once!!)
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Ok sounds similar to what we do when DS1 needs help settling a kind of walk in put down walk out. That shouldn't be encouraging her to wake. Just make sure you don't stay any longer than absolutely necessary to calm her. I fine it hard to know when to go in now too. I try to only go in if he's stood up. If he's lying down i leave him or just saw it's sleepy time now though the door if it sounds like he's getting upset. Seems like her nap time can vary a lot. Is that dependent on what time she wakes in the morning?
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nap times don't seem to be affected by wake up time (usually about 6.30 to 7). She does sometimes nap earlier or for longer if she's had a bad night though.. but then its not necessarily any better the following night.
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Hmm I'm wondering if she may be UT. What about trying to limit her nap to 1.5hrs and still with a set time for her nap as early as you can to give her a long A before bed. You'd need to stick with the routine for at least 3days to see if it worked. this doesn't sound like just the 18mo sleep regression since it's been going on so long. It may have started off as that and become habit now. So perhaps cut the resettling right back to wiwo where you do no more than reassure from the door with your voice. If these things don't work you may wish to post a new topic on toddler sleep board to get some more eyes on the issue for you. Good luck.
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Oh dear, someone please help me come up with a plan :'( DS is 19 mo and the last 4 weeks have been getting steadily worse. We now have EWs, nap refusal and he's really hard to settle at night. I know he must be OT but my usual techniques just aren't working. Last night I tried a 5.45pm BT after an hour's nap in the car (Woke at 12.30pm). It took him 50 minutes to fall asleep and we got a 5am EW this morning. Tried for nap at 11.30am, but he's still not asleep now at 1.40 :'( I can occasionally APOP with rocking, but he's getting too heavy.
Routine used to be:
W 6.30-7
Nap 12.30 - 2.30
BT 7.30pm.
Now we're all over the place. I need to have a plan to stick to for a few days as at the moment I'm changing things every day for him. Doesn't help that next week term starts which means pre-school run until 12.15pm.
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Argh, 18 month monster seem to be peaking his ugly head here... anyone else going through this ATM? My little guy has gone from sleeping 11-12 hr nights and the past few months his nap has been anywhere from 3-3.5 hrs.. This past week when he will only sleep 10-11 hrs if we're lucky and 1.5-2hrs for nap. We are getting b/t and nap refusal. All of his molars/canines have cut... I just ordered a Gro Clock. He's miserable and testing us at every corner. Please please please tell me this too shall pass... :P
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we're all over the place too. haven't got any suggestions but it is hard. We haven't got nap refusal, but he is taking a long time to fall asleep, however long he's been awake. We're also getting EWs. not too bad, but 6am, which makes it hard for him to make it to his nap, which has to be at 12.30 because of DD. Sure there's some OT there now too, but not really sure how to progress :(
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Well, I think it's all coming down to upping A times for us ::) Our previous routine looked very similar to yours, wake up around 7, nap around 12/1230, bt around 730/8... b/c we were getting nap refusal, I decided to go with it and up his A time today. So we did 6hrs for his morning A time today instead of the usual 5/5.5hrs... he went down perfectly and did a great nap of 2hrs 20 mins. I couldn't complain with that. He went to bed by 7:50pm with no issues. We'll see what the night brings and what time he wakes in the morning, but I think this whole 18 mth regression might come down to A time increase? Tomorrow I will aim for 6hrs-6.5 hrs for his morning A and see what that gives us for nap.
((hugs)) hun! xox :-*
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That could be it, except DS wakes up crying, which makes me think he hasn't had enough sleep. I can't really go with a late BT as I tutor students in the evening and need them asleep, so I guess I probably need to experiment with capping the nap. But atm we've got teething/cold which makes everything so much more difficult. However, we did get rid of the dummy cold turkey 3 days ago and that has gone amazingly well.
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Our nites are getting worse here.
DD is 19.5 months and has been a short sleeper. She has been doing 9.5-10 hrs nite and 2 hrs+ nap since she finished her 2-1 transition and we had a few months of good nite sleep.
For the past 2-3 weeks, we had NW almost everynite, mostly are short and I can just leave her to settle herself in a few mins. But it is so frequent that I wonder if there is some tweaking of the routine so the NW can stop?
I was getting 1hr 15min - 2 hrs nap recently whereas it was always 2hrs-2.5hrs before and if she short napped in the car for 30mins, she won't go down for another nap unless I APOP ( and it pushes BT to 10!!!).
our day looks like this:
WU 6-6:30
nap start anytime between 11:15-12:15 for 1hr 15min to 2hrs 15min max
BT 8-8:30
I tried putting her down early as I suspect her NW is due to OT, she doesn't sleep any longer than 10 hrs, so it's like 7ish to 5ish, 8ish to 6ish and if I put her down nearer to 9, she is definitely OT and wakes 5ish.
Another problem is, she seems ready for her nap and BT mayb 30mins to an hr before it actually happens but if I put her down then, she would short nap for 1hr15 or wake up 5am. She was doing so well on a stable routine just weeks ago. I don't know what is happening. She has all her canines and 4 molars and I don't see her chewing her fingers anymore so I don't think it;s teething.
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havent been on here for ages!
Jakobs still chewing fingers although everything has broken through well.
since we came back off a holiday he began doing a 11.5 hr night and wanting 3 hrs in the day. did this for 2 weeks then was dropping every other days nap. if i wake him earlier he cries for ages????
his speech is improving by the minute after quite a slow start and he is really active.
he seems to need about 1.5 hr nap around 6.5 hours after waking but wants to take more
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my DD went through this for almost 2 months, it started the very day she turned 18 months!
We tried EVERYTHING, and eventually put a gate on her bedroom door so at least she was in her room.
All I can say is bear with it - it WILL end. It took about 6-8 weeks for this phase to pass for my DD, but it does pass! She now sleeps 12 or 12.5 hours a night again. Bliss!
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I'm joining in here although S is only 16mo. His sleep has gone down the tubes. I know a lot of the trigger has been recurrent illness (colds, ear infections, stomach bugs - thanks to daycare) and teething molars (they are still coming in).
Routine used to be:
WU 5:30 (yuck but would be happy with this now)
Nap 12:15/12:30 - usually 1.5hrs (although had big problems at daycare with short napping - a bit better now)
BT 6:30 give or take depending on nap.
We could count on 11 hours at night and sttn. If we got NW it was pretty easy for dh to go in and resettle.
Since his last bout of illness/teeth that started a few weeks ago things are all over the place. He is still napping about 1.5 hrs, but generally wakes at about 4:30-5 (daylight savings did this and I can't move it). But, the worst part right now is crying and screaming at bedtime, SA from me, and NWs. I started nursing him during the night when sick - I could go in and nurse for 5 minutes and put him down awake no problem. Not anymore. Also, at BT he just screams and screams if I do it. Last night I was out and dh did it no problem, no tears. Tonight he started crying the moment I handed him over and hasn't stopped (it's been about 35 minutes). I am so tired of this and can't quite figure out the problem.
Teeth: still working on molars, etc - some days he pulls at his teeth.
Fever of 101 yesterday not sure why.
Diarrhea today, but otherwise his mood has been better (we'd been having major crying and needing to be held all the time).
Prop - my habit of nursing (though initially not back to sleep) caught up with us.
SA - all these illnesses etc., or just that he's used to all the extra holding and comfort.
Does this sound familiar to anyone? DH is still doing BT and he's still crying and I just want to go in there.
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Becky I'm just popping in because we too seem to have it some kind of sleep regression. Seriously I've never seen anything like it, and like you Z is only coming up 16 months...maybe its not 'really early' 18 mth sleep regression but it sure feels like what people talk about at 18 mths ::) Z also has always hit his developmental leaps, nap droppingetc early so I do wonder :-\
Our issues aren't with naps, Z will nap all day if I let him, but it's his nights, they are short, and he is clearly still tired...AtM I'm blaming teething, he has turned touchy again too when he is usually so spirited now! Have you tried WI\WO at BT, this worked for us, but now he just talks all evening in his cot ::)
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Hi Sara. I had forgotten this post. Funny, things got better then regressed again. We got onto this weird routine of super EW's (4-4:30) then longish nap starting at 1 then exhausted by dinner time and in bed by 6. A couple of new teeth are partly to blame but also that late nap. We've backed it up a bit and gotten a few later mornings - and he's making it to a slightly later BT now which is helping. Teeth really throw things off. Also, looking back at that time with teeth and illness, bad sleep and OT, then SA as a result. I found it helpful to turn all sleep over to DH for a while, and to wean him off me (still nursing and when I AP with that we end up with major prop adoption pretty quickly). We can both put him down easily now, and I am even able to go in and re-settle by tucking him back in occasionally as well (although I generally leave that up to dh ;)).
Are you medicating for teeth? I find I often have to do both types of meds at once when they are bad.
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Hi ladies,
I think we may have hit the '18 month sleep regression' now so joining in for some mutual support/advice.
We're getting EWs (after 10 hr night) and big reluctance/difficulty to go to sleep at BT and naptime - not seeming tired or when she does seem tired, acting like she's forgotten how to fall asleep (even with me with her). But when she wakes from her nap (after 1hr15), she seems like she's still tired for about 30 mins or so until she's back in her stride. Then it's non-stop 'til BT.
She's so much fun to be with when she's awake at the moment and I'm pretty sure it's not teeth (she has 1 canine to go and then the last four molars, but I don't think they're coming yet).
She's just going through/went through the 17 mo wonder week (http://thewonderweeks.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=60&Itemid=162) and it is so obvious that she's just had a huge leap in her development. Imaginative play has reached a whole new level and she's much better at playing on her own and deciding/choosing/finding things to do when I'm busy. She's also 'talking' much more.
I'm pretty certain our sleep issues are all caused by wonder week/developmental stuff but I'm not sure how to get through it and out the other end. She's really not interested in sleep ATM. Just wants to be awake! Any suggestions??
Before this Wonder week, her routine was:
wu 6pm
nap 12.30-1.45 (for 1hr15)
bt 7pm
If we let her nap longer we got EWs. She is def low sleep needs (but took me months of EWs before I accepted this!)
L has always been really affected by wonder weeks. It was sooo obvious when she was going through one cos she had such trouble settling for sleep during that week. But this one is the worst (since she was a few months old) in terms of messing with her sleep. Have any of your LOs been like that?
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Hey I am glad to read this post if only to realise we are not alone in our struggle!!!
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L is still have sleep troubles (I know it's only four days since I last posted but I'm impatient for improvements! :P)
The problems are:
- settling to sleep (with me, not DH or her nanny)
- NW(s)
- EW
She settles fine when DH or her nanny put her down but with me she really fights it and seems to want me there until she actually is asleep. She gets very upset. Proper screaming cries. I am doing WIWO. I PD if she is sitting/standing and, if she's still really upset (which she usually is atm :) ), I stay with her with a hand on her saying soothing stuff until she calms down. Then I WO. Then she starts crying again. I give her a chance to settle on her own but cries escalate and I have to go back in...
This whole process is taking AGES. Took me over an hour to settle her like this last night. Admittedly, she didn't seem in the least tired when I put her down at BT initially. Although, I *know* that she would have settled for DH, even if she was UT (although we prob would have got EW or NW). I suspect she is UT when I PD so am thinking will cap the nap down to 1hr and see if that helps... But that sounds so low for a 17 mo!! Although I have read of others on here who nap less/not at all at this age...
The other problems are NW (she's been STTN really well for several months now, not even getting NWs during teething/illness) and/or EW. With the EW, she will usually go back to sleep if one of us stays wiht her. But we have to stay with her until she is in deep sleep again (WIWO doesn't work after an EW cos she's just not that tired any more) and she only gets another 45 mins.
I think that since this latest WW she's just having so much more trouble settling and staying asleep.
Anyone else going through/been through similar things? How long did they last??? Do I just have to ride it out with WIWO? Do you think a routine tweak (e.g. nap capping so she's not UT at BT) is needed/would help (I suspected a couple of months ago that she could have a shorter nap as her morning WU time was creeping earlier, but then she got sick with a virus in January and was sleeping loads)? It's so hard to tell with L!! She is 17 mo and I *still* don't understand her sleep needs!
Sorry for long rambling post ladies.
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so we were 18 mos on feb 27th and it was like BAM!!! sleep regression...our schedule WAS...
7-7:15 wu
12:30-2:30/3 Nap
7:30 BT
it was beautiful it was clockwork it was easy...then all of a sudden...we have nap fighting...we had some earlier wu's for a bit but knixed that kicking the BT just a bit later...that seemed to help that..but omg it's taking over an hour- hour and a half to get her to fall asleep for her nap...BT she has been taking longer than usual but not by much...these naps are awful..she just plays and bangs on the wall and chats away...a few times in the beginning I went in and she had poop....so i tried getting her on the potty before nap time but she'd pee and say she's done or just sit there and just play and play...so at first i thought the bm schedule was interfering with the sleep schedule..cause i'd change her put her back down and she'd go to sleep within a few mins or so..but now poop or no poop she is fooling around in there forever...today i decided i'd start at 12 and hope the eventual nod off would be earlier..cause lately her naps weren't starting til 1:30-1:45 and only lasting 45-90 mins. I did EBT when on the lower end of the scale. so my thinking was if i start earlier and she nods off earlier then maybe the nap will be longer like before...well we started with the potty...she peed nothing more...after playing around i decided off to bed we go..now it's only 12:10 rather than our usual in the crib time of 12:30
no luck..she just played and played...said pee pee so i tried again..more playing..and i think i was getting played as well...put her down said it's time to sleep and walked out..she began banging on the walls and playing i went in put her back down and said you stop that its time to sleep and walked out...after that she did not get up again...let out a few small sounds and went to sleep at 1:25...so what is that?....1 hr and 15 mins of trying to get this kid to sleep. we'll see how long she naps..and I'm grateful she isn't refusing completely but wondering what the answer is here. i've read all you can do is wait it out but there has to be something i can do...maybe the answer isn't start earlier but maybe start later? if so by how much? any thoughts? anyone get through this? any suggestions?
I am going away for 6 days next week...first time ever leaving my children and I'm at a loss as to what to tell my poor sister who will be dealilng with this if i don't figure something out soon
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Hi Lily,
Sorry you're having a tough time at the moment too.
No BTDT advice but sounds to me like she might be UT at naptime (that's what L would be like if she were UT, that or protesting loudly about being put down too early!). IIWM I'd push it back gradually though, perhaps just by 15 mins and see if that helps her settle quicker?
We're making a bit of progress with our issues by capping L's nap to 45-55 mins (depending on how her night sleep goes). This way, she's falling asleep much quicker at BT and seems ready for it now. We also haven't had any really long NWs since capping her nap.
However, she still wants us (me or DH) to stay with her until she falls completely asleep at the moment. We're trying to use GW to phase this out but making slow progress.. The worst is that we have to stay with her when she wakes (once or twice) during the night too (which she is atm - seems to be caused by a cough which is nowhere to be seen during the day ?!). Then, teething pains are coming and going as she's cutting her last canine and I suspect perhaps her last four molars are also on the move.. Plus a bit of SA going on.. and EW every day.. She used to be such a good independent sleeper, STTN every night. This phase is soooo frustrating!!
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Hi all,
I'm wondering if we're hitting this regression too?? DS was doing fine on his mini-morning nap/long pm nap routine, he'd had some days where he only slept 10mins in the morning but we figured out a good pm nap time that worked in that scenario, and he'd done some 1 nap days (both nap refusal and intentional). We were hoping to get to the clock change and start 1 nap days at the childminder's then, since we thought he'd effectively be waking up later and so he'd be able to get through till about 12:30, the earliest she could put him down (she also looks after a 2yo so they need to fit around each other).
So as I said it was all going well for that until he got ill :( Actually we all got ill :( And so he kept waking at night in discomfort, and gradually got more and more tired... and now we're certainly in OT territory :( He's never been one to crash when he needs to, he just will not switch off and despite me putting him down early for naps/BT (when he's clearly tired) he just will not settle - rather like Catherine's L, we do the same, although we can't stay too long or he'll get distracted from the task of trying to sleep and start chatting! And, like her, he used to be such a good independent sleeper who STTN'd. But now we get EW at stupid o'clock and he just won't go back to sleep :( And settling at BT/naps, which used to be within 5-10mins max, is now taking 30-60mins :( :( :( But he's better now, there's really no reason I can see at all for this, other than OT... and ok, OT has never been great news for him, but he hasn't been this bad since he was about 4mo! I'd almost forgotten just how horrible it is! So do you think we're hitting the 18mo regression a bit early?? Or do we likely still have that 'joy' to come? We have no props at our disposal, even if I try bf-ing to sleep (which I last did on the plane at Christmas), in my experience I have to stay absolutely still and not even think of putting him down, and even then he'll only sleep 30mins max. I am so desperate, you know how when you've been ill you also badly need a good night's sleep, and I'm rapidly losing hope that this will ever happen :(
Right now, he's tossing and turning and babbling and moaning, breathing way too fast to be settling down, and it's 1h since I PD'd for his 'nice long' nap :( :( Ok sorry about the rant, guess I had to get that off my chest! And he's just got to sleep so I guess I should be glad about that although I'm not optimistic about how long he'll stay asleep... Oh and we've got guests tomorrow so it will be pretty rubbish if he's like this again (which is likely) - not exactly very sociable to spend lunchtime going in and out to him, and going to the loo almost always wakes him (creaky floorboards) but you can't exactly tell guests not to go during his nap! Aaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrgggggghhhhhhhhh!!!
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Hi ladies,
I just read this article about this regression which was slightly reassuring (it IS just a phase!) but made be determined not to start too many bad habits (unfortunately I fear we already have started a few though :S). The loooong NWs are so hard though when you're already exhausted and have work the next day! Yuk.
http://www.babysleepsite.com/baby-sleep-patterns/why-18-month-sleep-regression-can-be-hardest/
PS Trimbler - yep, sounds like the 18 month regression to me..
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ooh yes, I signed up to their emails too, found her website when DS was 4 weeks old before I discovered this place! She often has interesting articles, if, like me, you've become a bit obsessed with babies' sleep :)
I'm still waiting for a decent night's sleep... and naps are also rather interrupted/short at the moment so we're still all over the place with routine, but I did have some encouragement last night/today re settling which I thought I'd share (also put it on spirited babies thread so apologies if you've been on there too). I'm sure many of you have tried this with suspected SA already and I know that SA isn't such a big issue generally with DS at the moment, so please take this as a general encouragement that some progress is possible, rather than as something obvious that of course you've all tried already and it wasn't enough!
We had some big SA yesterday when my parents visited unexpectedly - DS was unusually shy when they arrived, he doesn't see them very often but he's usually really friendly with new people. Anyway, once he'd finally warmed up to them and was playing happily, I made the mistake of trying to go to the loo without him - mega oops! Lots of screaming, and he was very nervous after that whenever I even moved towards the door, without any intention of leaving. Even when DH came home he wouldn't let me go (and I thought he was in a real 'Daddy' phase at the moment!)... which made me wonder whether there was some SA at play in the ridiculous amount of time it had taken him to get to sleep that day and previous BTs (1h with wi/wo, previously 5-10mins max)?? Anyway, as I was bf-ing him at BT, I had a little chat with him about how he was completely safe, that I knew he sometimes felt scared and upset when I left him but that he was ok and he didn't have to feel scared because mummy loves him etc. Wasn't sure how much he really understood, he was just looking up at me with serious eyes and shaking his head - so I didn't know whether he was disagreeing or trying to say 'no, I don't have to be scared', IYSWIM? But, to my amazement, he settled immediately that night :) And despite having had a bad night's sleep overall (partly stuffy nose to blame), he also settled immediately for both naps today :) Maybe just coincidence, but just because my DS isn't talking yet, it's easy for me to assume that he wouldn't understand that sort of little chat - but I'm sure he understands so much more than I realise!
Melissa - sorry can't advise can only send (((hugs))) but wrt her bms - I've often had this issue with my DS (though he's nowhere near being ready to TT yet!), I just find that if I ensure that we start lunch 1h 15mins before I want him to nap, this allows enough time to dawdle over lunch, be up and about for a bit and then poo (he won't if it's straight from lunch to nap), and have enough time to change him and wind down etc. Have you seen a pattern in how long after a meal she'll poo or what sort of activities help her bowels to start contracting? I know this is only one small aspect of her problems, but I'm afraid it's the only thing I had a thought about!
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just wanted to drop in with an update and hopefully not jinx myself..but I definitely feel lucky...the delayed nap only lasted a little over a week and seemed to rectify when I pushed her naps and BT by 30 mins...just thought I'd share in hopes this may help someone else...
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Hooray, Melissa! :)
Just wondering if anyone else hit the 2-1 at the same time as 18mo? We probably could have gone sooner, but our childminder can't give DS a nap before 1230 at the very earliest, so we held out with a short morning nap until the clocks changed last weekend and have just had one nap since Friday (at home, so 1130 nap before the time change, if that makes sense?). So, previously he'd have 20mins in the morning, 2h in the afternoon and no more than 5h A time until BT. For the first one nap day, he slept 2.75h until I decided to wake him, then 1.5h, then 2.5h, then just over 1.5h the last couple of days. Previously, that would always mean OT, and he was certainly very tired and sleepy this morning. But, hard as we try to get him an EBT, he's always taking over 1h to get to sleep :( :( He's not unduly unhappy, he'll babble for a while and then it's as if he's UT and gets bored and cries. But he's always soooo tired at BT and calms when I go in, acting like he's going to sleep, but somehow just can't :( So the last couple of days, due to the short nap, I've PD'd at around 4.75h A time, but he hasn't got to sleep until approaching 6h A time or even more... and I thought that with the 2-1 they were supposed to get so tired at the end of the day that they just drop off and that EBTs are supposed to work well at this stage?? Before dropping the am nap, with illness as well, he tended to only get 12-13h a day, but I was expecting this to go up again once he'd dropped the nap. So I really don't know whether he's just having a massive leap in A time that just happens to coincide with his 2-1, or whether he's hit the 18mo regression and is just putting up a fight but we need to keep putting him down early and hope that this phase passes?? The one thing I'm absolutely convinced of is that he's not getting enough sleep, we're even having to wake him in the mornings and he's just so tired that he keeps lying on the floor and doesn't have his usual energy.
Sorry for the tired, stressed-out rambling, but does anyone have any ideas please?
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Yay Melissa - that's great news.
We also seem to be over the worst of the regression now. She is settling much better at BT now. However, her last four molars are coming now and these are causing some NWs/EWs, but at least I know they will be here soon(ish) and it is something I can understand (not just general sleep craziness!).
trimbler - we did 2-1 at around 12 months but we're approaching 1-0 now (in that although she still needs a nap, I have to cap it to make sure she's not UT at BT). Still a way off losing the nap completely tho but most days she only needs 1hr-1hr15 nap now.
You said that before 2-1 your DS would have a 5hr A time after a 2hr nap. What happens if you try an even earlier BT, say a 4.5hr A time after a 1hr30 nap? Perhaps he is OT and so having trouble nodding off?
Also, how is his speech? L has just had big leap here and I think that was part of her issue when she had trouble settling recently.
Also, when L did 2-1 it took a couple of weeks or so before her single nap lengthened to a 'decent' length. I think that is common as they get used to the longer morning A time. Perhaps your DS's nap will lengthen as he gets used to new morning A time and, in the meantime a really EBT might keep OT at bay? What do you think?
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Thanks Catherine, maybe we should try the extra early BT again... We have tried 4.5h A after a shorter nap, but it still took 1.5h for him to get to sleep, so not sure whether it was worth it? Also, although he seems tired (yawning etc and fairly calm), he's almost acting UT ay BT - ie when he's really OT he screeches/roars at BT and gets incredibly hyper beforehand. I guess we'll just keep swinging back and forth between early BT and later BT until we find what works?
Speech - still not saying many recognisable words, but there are definitely more sounds in his babbling now.
We had EW this morning (9.5h night sleep) but apparently a better nap at the same time at the childminders (2h but woke briefly twice), so still seems OT but I'd expect that with the long am A time (6.5h). Aiming for 5h to BT...
Glad to see you're over the worst :)
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Hi Trimbler
What A time is he doing in the AM now? Is it fairly short i.e. less than 5.5hrs? This may be a reason why the EBT isn't working so far.
TBH I think use of EBT when you first make the jump to 1 nap is far more relevant for LO's who do the 2-1 early eg 12 months. At 18 months, they should be pretty able to handle the transition without OT. Not to say that he's not OT of course, but that your gut feeling of UT is probably the one that's right! I think they do have a huge leap in A times/drop in sleep needs at the 18 month mark & I think this may be why so many folks seem to get problems. So I would certainly try some EBT first, simply to rule it out but if it doesn't get you the result you are looking for you need to look at going in the other direction i.e. increase in A times/capping the nap. Perhaps if he does take a 1.5hr nap again (which really is ok at this age) then you could just give him his normal BT?
I've been capping O's nap at 1.5hrs (much as I hate doing it & would prefer to let him sleep!). We were doing 5.5hr A / 2hr nap / 5hr A until he hit 18 months then it all went wonky lol!!!! So we've cut the nap but now a 5hr A time to BT doesn't seem to be enough, even after the capped nap & 6hrs A in the AM. He also seems to be UT, doesn't look tired, chatting away for ages. So we have just increased his PM A time to 5.5hrs as of today to see if that sorts us out. I'm hoping it might get us a longer night so we can do something like:
Up: 7am
Nap: 12.30-2.30
BT: 7.30
This is really the final straw before I either have to cap the nap further or accept we are going to have short nights & let him nap what he needs.
xx
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Thanks Claire, I do feel like he might be having a sudden jump in A times, but as we never had a 'normal' 1-nap day before, having only just made the switch, it's hard to know where we are... Nights haven't been so good recently either, we've had a few 1h+ NWs, but then there have at times been other possible reasons for this (noise from adjacent flats or works on the railway line just outside our flat), so it's hard to pin down what's really going on. Then when he's had a bad/short night I expect him to be on the shorter end of normal for his A times...
At the moment I'm going for pretty much set Up and nap start times, due to childcare constraints, so if he wakes early he stays in his cot until we get him up, in the hope that he'll be kind of resting in there. So it's
Up: 7:15am
Nap: 12:30... (say until 2:30 on a good day, but if he woke early he tends to have a shorter and/or broken nap)
Then 5.25h A time until PD if he's had a better nap, but it's often approaching or exceeding 6h until he actually gets to sleep.
Maybe we do need to increase his A time to BT, but I'm reluctant to cap the nap or extend morning A time just yet, since he just doesn't seem rested enough on less than 2h. It really wasn't that long ago (a couple of weeks) since he was doing a 20min am nap, 1-3 pm nap and was always asleep by 8pm at the latest ??? So I guess we'll keep monitoring his naps to assess that morning A time, whilst experimenting with gradually lengthening his A time to BT... I just always get a little scared to do that, since OT is not nice!
Claire - I assume you meant his nap will be 12:30 - 2pm? I was hoping to eventually get to something like:
Up: 7am
Nap: 1-3
BT: 8:30... before starting on capping the nap, am I right in thinking that 6h A time in the morning is quite usual by the end of the transition? Hope you all start to see better nights etc...
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claire...
Just thought I'd chime in and tell you what seems to be working for us...This is our current schedule these days
8-8:30 wu (which floors me since there was a time we were doing 6-6:30)
1:15-3:15 (most days...sometimes she does play a bit and do 1:30-3:30)
8pm BT
so maybe try pushingthe BT later rather than shortening the nap? just a thought...trust me the longer you hold onto the nap the better...my son dropped his too early and I regret not trying harder to keep it....good luck
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Melissa - Glad to hear you've cracked your issues! Do you wake her from nap or is that what she's having naturally?
Trimbler - yes I meant 12.30-2!
I'd say the routine you posted with the 1-3pm nap looks good. Not everyone gets to 6hr A before capping, some people do it earlier in order to keep the day at 12hrs, but TBH I have so far found that DS doesn't cope quite so well with the shorter nap so in a way its probably better if they cut it back of their own accord as & when ready. Although, it has to be said that if the night is longer they may cope better with having a much shorter nap.
As for us, the longer A to BT really didn't help, at least not after a week of EW, illness & a capped nap, he got horrendously OT so its back to the drawing board with a 2hr nap 12.30-2.30 and a 7.30pm BT. We've had a better few nights but today he woke a bit earlier at 6.20am happy & chatty, and tonight he took a while to settle asleep 7.40pm, and we've just had a brief cryout at 9.30, and again now at 10pm, so he's probably OT again from the long day. Ugh I hate UT/OT loops! ::) I think we need to get our nap to 1pm too, but I am a bit wary of letting him nap for the full 2hrs. At the moment he's not tired at BT with 5hrs A after his 2hr nap, so I don't see how shifting it all 30mins later will help b/c his A times won't change - they'll still be 6hrs / 2hrs / 5hrs ??? So I think we wither need later BT or a shorter nap in order for him to be tired at BT.
Can I ask you ladies, how do you feel about doing a much later BT than you have up to now i.e. 8/8.30pm? Are you finding it eats into your couple time? We are weighing up the pro's & cons of capping DS's nap versus letting him sleep, but accept that if we do the latter he is going to need a later BT than 7.30pm. But of course if we do that, then we trade off some of our evening time, time to do jobs, spend as a couple etc. I don't mean that to sound selfish, I just mean its a compromise. I'm quite prepared to accept he will need a later BT as he gets older but they are still so young.
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claire, she sleeps that nap time naturally...I never wake her...
as for losing couple time...I hear ya...well we have our oldest who doesn't finish up bedtime routine and actually get into bed until 8:30 or so anyway...my dd does an 8pm bt now as I said...but I too was kind of like hmmm giving up some quieter time there...but it gives her a later wake up time too...so for ME that was worth it...I personally think its better to extend the bt then chop down the nap and possibly lose it! :O
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Well, DH looked after M today, tried to get him down 12:30 (after a slightly EW of 6:45, but still up at 7:15 and fairly calm in between) but it was more like 12:45 and a broken nap. Then he let him sleep until 3pm, which was later than I'd wanted, but he said he seemed to need that little bit extra - which I'm sure was true but then of course everything gets later... Having previously decided to try 5.5h to BT, I stuck to that, and he did settle more quickly (20mins?) but I think we had OT since he was sooooo floppy in my arms at BT, but then sprang into life as soon as I put him down - oops! So I'm not ruling out the 5.5h but will probably cut down to 5.25h or something if there's reason to suspect that he'll be extra tired... Bit more tossing and turning than usual in his sleep this evening, so I'm just hoping this doesn't translate into an OT EW!
Claire - funny, I was thinking just the same about couple time in the evenings. Especially since DH is now on school holidays and so finally doesn't have to spend the whole evening marking etc! (He's out tonight though, so of course I've gravitated towards this forum again...) BT generally seems to be 7:30-8:30 now, at least he's rarely asleep before then and I can't relax until he's asleep! So yes, couple time does get squeezed somewhat, especially when we're working and M has dinner at the childminder's and then we eat once he's in bed... He's got all these films off iplayer that he wants to watch with me at some point, but there's just not enough evening left to watch them. I'm kind of thinking it's a phase and one day M will be able to amuse himself enough so that we can relate to each other more when he's awake, or will be out with friends... But then I know our relationships are still so important now, and we can't just put it off until our children have got older. We certainly haven't 'got it right' yet with this balancing act - anyone have any tips? Or is that on another board?
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I'm having similar debate of longer nap+later BT vs shorter nap and earlier BT. I think overall L gets more total sleep with shorter nap and earlier BT so that's what I'm aiming for. Couple time is really important tho - it helps us get through the more difficult patches of parenting!
Can you get a babysitter/family/friend to do BT once in a while so you and DH can go out? Or to look after your LO on the weekend so you can have some couple time then?
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Yea I think you have to do what works for your family as a whole. I also like the later WU time that comes with the later BT. Being that we have a 7 yr old that is up til 8:30 the earlier or later BT didn't make much difference to "couple time" since we still have my son up until 8:30 so I'd prefer the longer nap. The last few days though she is playing at her 8pm BT until nearly 8:30-9 almost and waking closer to 7:30 than the 8:30 she was doing AND her naps are also about 15 mins shorter these last few days too. Think I'm going to try an earlier BT just for tonight to see if it's possibly OT from an unavoidable later BT we did earlier in the week. She's been crying out in her sleep too which is usually OT for her do hopefully this will help and we'll be back on track ;)
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Thanks ladies, interesting to hear some different views on this! We need a 7am WU at the latest to fit in with our working hours as we have to be up, fed, dressed & out the house by 7.30-7.45am on workdays. So I don't suppose a particularly late BT is really going to suit us.
Melissa have also had this faffing around, and that was on a similar routine to what A is doing now, only 30mins earlier ie 7am WU, 12.30-2.30 nap, 7.30BT. For the last few weeks we've shortened his nap gradually to 1.5hrs, he was STILL faffing around at BT so we increased his A time to BT to 5.5hrs but he got horrendously OT. For the last week we've been back on a 2hr nap, 5HR A to BT & still getting just shy of 11hrs so his morning is now 6hrs long. Last 2 days we've done just 4.5hrs A to BT b/c he still seemed OT & day 1 we got 12hr night, last night took him 30mins to settle to bed & we got a 10hr night & a 6am EW - gross!
Sooo....back to the drawing board & start capping again. I've a feeling we need to go radical & cut back to around 1h/1h 15 like you do cath.
Today so far he's super OT from short night + long A to nap (6h 40). I daren't cap so short today so am allowing 1.5hrs & then I'm gonna try bedtime 4.5hrs later. This will only be 6.40pm so I will have to hope & pray we get a decent length night. If not, then we'll be in an even bigger EW OT mess than today lol! Then once we get a later WU of 7am I will cut the nap shorter. I've a feeling this is the only way I'll be able to keep his day short & his night's consistently long.
18 month regression is great isn't it?!!!!
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Claire does A add on??? A later BT may not necessarily mean a later WU. It may create the same WU giving a shorter night and allowing for a longer nap. I dunno I just think the nap is super important still at this age to recharge and continue development. MAYBE cap the morning. If a later BT causes A to still be sleeping when you need him up just wake him in the morning....this way you can let him nap as long as he wants and needs and the later BT may cut out the play time at night. Sometimes that's OT right? I think that is what was happening for my dd.
So last night I went in 30 mins earlier at 7:30 or so to put her down...gave her her bottle but afterward she seemed restless Soo I rocked and sang to her for a bit. She ended up in her crib about 5-10 mins shy of her normal BT but she didn't play for very long like she has been and was asleep a lot sooner. I'd say by 8:15 rather than the 8:45-9 she has been doing these last few days. Which helped cause she slept til 8 today like I was hoping! ;) so I'm hoping this caught her up a bit and put us back on track for a good nap today ;)
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Claire does A add on??? A later BT may not necessarily mean a later WU. It may create the same WU giving a shorter night and allowing for a longer nap. I dunno I just think the nap is super important still at this age to recharge and continue development.
Melissa are you meaning just put him to bed later & accept that he is going to do a shorter night while he takes the longer nap?
The only glitch I have with this, is when he does the 2hr nap, followed by a 10-10.5hr night, he is absolutely awful the next day with tantrums etc b/c he simply hasn't had enough night sleep to sustain him through the required 6hrs of A time the next day. I can't shorten his AM A time really either, no less than 5.5hrs anyway, b/c his PM A time would end up silly long like 6hrs or so in order to make a 13.5hr day.
MAYBE cap the morning. If a later BT causes A to still be sleeping when you need him up just wake him in the morning....this way you can let him nap as long as he wants and needs and the later BT may cut out the play time at night. Sometimes that's OT right? I think that is what was happening for my dd.
Siigh if only I could. Yesterday, for example, he napped 1-3, went to bed at 7.30, chatted til 8pm & woke this morning at 6am. I don't have the luxury of waking him b/c he isn't sleeping in. In fact he's getting up even earlier than usual. ::)
Letting him sleep at naptime & finding his own BT is something we have certainly considered, because I would prefer to him to wake from his nap naturally & that way I would know that when his nap starts to cuts back its because he doesn't need it anymore & not because I am forcing him to manage without it. However, I already wake him from his 2hr nap (I've no idea how long he would actually sleep if I let him) so if I stop waking him he will nap for even longer, meaning an even shorter night than we are currently getting & I don't see how 9-10hr nights coupled with 3hr naps will be restorative enough for him YK? So I don't really see how this is feasible long-term.
I do think his night sleep is more important & I think if he was having 12hr nights then he would cope with a much shorter nap no problem. And with how long he's staying awake right now with his 2hr nap I don't see we have much option other than capping the nap.
DH held him out til usual naptime of 12.30 (despite the 6am start), of course he was OT by naptime b/c of the short night & didn't settle til 12.40. I'd decided to cap his nap at 1.5hrs in order to keep the day shorter as for O, long day = more OT, but he woke himself at 2.05pm (1h 25 nap), unhappy, which is for him, is usually an OT nap. B/c of the shorter nap I've done EBT at 6.35pm, thinking since he already did 6h 40 A time before his nap a 4.5hr A would be quite enough, but he didn't show much hint of tiredness except rubbing his eyes after his bottle & he is still chatting away in bed at 7.05pm. So yet again UT at bed time put down & he'll probably be OT by the time he goes to sleep so I'll bet we'll get another EW tomorrow. I think its because he's simply not tired enough after a longer nap.
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I am just reading along and I have to agree wth Claire on the nap vs night. For us anyway. A restorative nap is important but night sleep is where they get the most gain developmentally and to recharge.
We also get awful behaviour and cumulated OT over time with 10-10.5 hr nights and longer naps. I get a happy clam after the nap but that's it, and over time everything deteriorates.
I also thnk that long term the nap will go, so encouraging night sleep is important for healthy sleep habits ate on KWIM? that said, one LOs do fine on shorter nights and long a.
Just my 2 cents ;)
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Oh dear it's all so confusing, isn't it! We've only dropped the morning nap 2 weeks ago so still a bit rocky with that, plus they're doing noisy works on the railway line outside our flat which can interrupt all our sleep... But it does seem with our DS that even if he has a shorter OT nap, he still needs a longer A time to BT than I think, as he just acts UT and doesn't settle for ages if I try EBT. Yesterday, he woke quite early (can't remember when exactly now!) but we didn't get him up until 7:15 as usual, and then he went down 12:30 and slept solidly until 2:35 :) I've kind of got it in my head that if he's well rested he'll probably need 5.5h to BT, but aim to reduce that to 5.25h if not - so, yesterday, we aimed for 7:45ish BT and actually got it!! But then we were all woken by the noise around 4am this morning and DS was awake for almost an hour before we thought to put his nap music on (doesn't have this at night) and it must have helped to block out the noise as he went back to sleep. Still sleeping soundly at 7:15 but decided to wake him anyway, knowing that he would be tired but not knowing how else to try and stabilise his routine... Still got 2h nap, but think he was a bit OT tonight as he took a bit longer to settle, so kind of expecting another EW tomorrow - with or without the noise.
So, I reckon we're now aiming for:
7:15 Up (even if he wakes earlier)
12:30 - 2:30 Nap
7:45/8pm BT - which should allow for an 11h+ night, but this remains to be seen...
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That sounds like a good plan Trimbler.
I think I'm gonna talk to DH again tomorrow about O's BT & whether we keep the nap at 12.30 & at 2hrs with a later BT or whether we cut it back & keep the usual BT. I'm sooo torn. I have to do something though b/c 12.30-2.30 nap & 7.30BT clearly isn't working any more. Tonight it took him 45mins to go to sleep, this was after putting him down 4.5hrs after a 1.5hr nap. So his day ended up 6.5hr A / 1.5hr nap / 5.25hr A. He is also clearly UT & I think I am going to have to spend a few days watching him to try & figure out what he needs b/c watching the clock doesn't seem to be getting us anywhere atm!
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Awe Claire well if he's usually a mess with a long nap shorter night then i'd agree with you and say cap the nap and let him have his night. I didn't have to consider that because our longer nap later BT gives us a later WU which works for us thankfully so we kind of get the best of both worlds. It's a tough position but you certainly know best.
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Especially since DH is now on school holidays and so finally doesn't have to spend the whole evening Oops!! etc!
Sorry - just had to point this out since my DH saw it! He doesn't 'Oops!!' in the evenings, he marks his students' work, but evidently this forum has something set up to discourage people from m-a-r-k-i-n-g their spot in threads, so consequently we can't use that word at all without it being replaced with 'Oops!!' :)
Anyway, what I was going to say was on a slightly different topic from what we've been discussing recently - bedtime stories. Just wondered whether anyone else's LO has started resisting the end of story time? For a long time we just stuck to the same short book every night, then at around 12mo we graduated to a choice of two (i.e. only one being read) out of a slowly increasing selection. But just recently, when we've finished one, he's been looking around for another - well actually squirming in my arms and making it very clear that he'd be upset if we didn't read another! So now we'll often read two... but this clearly isn't always quite enough for him either - tonight, once we'd reached the last page of the first book, he was already squirming and trying to grab another one... and on the last page of that book, he started doing the same. However I'm afraid I'm a meanie and as I'd already said that the 2nd book was his last, I stuck to my word. Also he was clearly tired enough already, perhaps verging on OT but I'm still trying to work him out at BT, just like Claire is with O. At any rate, I'm pretty sure his frustration about not having more books didn't help him settle... So - is anyone else starting to get this now, and if so, any tips? Try to start BT earlier to allow more reading time? Problem is, he's so calm for his bf but now when we get into reading, he kind of swings between calm/relaxed and excited, so I'm not entirely sure about prolonging that part of the BT routine.
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I think at this age they can start trying to get extra stories/more cuddles/more drinks etc as a means of delaying BT. And of course b/c they love to hear you tell stories too! ;) We also find O often asks for the story 'again', or another story etc, but I usually distract with 'its time for your nappy change now' or say no. The only time I ever allow an extra story is if we started getting him ready a little too early & we have a few mins extra on our hands & then I don't mind at all. I think this is super important b/c you are then setting the boundaries/limits & telling him he can't stretch it out yk? And you don't end up with them all OT b/c BT was too late.
As for what we are reading, we have a selection of books that DS likes. I am starting to get him some more grown up books with an actual story rather than just picture books, his favourites of the moment are 'my mummy & me' or 'my daddy & me', and 'peace at last' which was one of my BT fave's as a child too :)
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I think at this age they can start trying to get extra stories/more cuddles/more drinks etc as a means of delaying BT. And of course b/c they love to hear you tell stories too! We also find O often asks for the story 'again', or another story etc, but I usually distract with 'its time for your nappy change now' or say no. The only time I ever allow an extra story is if we started getting him ready a little too early & we have a few mins extra on our hands & then I don't mind at all. I think this is super important b/c you are then setting the boundaries/limits & telling him he can't stretch it out yk? And you don't end up with them all OT b/c BT was too late.
We had this at 14-15 months something terrible, and we still get it when Z is actually OT already - fussing before going into the cot really. Totally agree with Claire. We started 2 stories, then changing them, then realised it was just a 'phase' and had to nip it in the bud a bit.
Now we are back to 1 story but as I said before we get it a bit if Z is OT or borderline OT at BT. x
Z's fav BT book is Twinkle Twinkle Little Star, its adapted from the song but is a story about a mouse that rhymes. We got it when he was born and I didnt realise he would love it so much but its a perfect length etc for his age http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/twinkle-twinkle-little-star-make-believe-ideas-ltd/1030081159
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Thanks for the books tips, I'm afraid I've just removed (or hidden!) all but two books from his room for now, he definitely has a favourite book to end with, so we read the other one first and then do his favourite bedtime book. He was still looking around for more tonight, but gave up more quickly and with less fuss, so maybe that's progress...?
But I'm still pretty fed up with this regression thing! I can hardly believe that he used to be so good at getting to sleep at BT, whereas now it seems to take him a minimum of 45mins :( And I still really have no idea whether he's just OT from the start, or UT ending up OT, or just UT. Got 9h sleep last night after taking 45mins - 1h to get to sleep and waking very early. Pretty sure that was an OT EW, but also pretty sure he wasn't OT at BT? Not really sure what's going on, sometimes he's quiet for a few minutes when I first put him down but then starts throwing himself around his cot like he's suddenly got a new burst of energy. Often he gets so worked up that one of us has to go it to try and calm him down. Yesterday he must have got himself so excited that he gave himself the hiccups after about 40mins of not going to sleep! And then found it funny! Now he's just chatting away to himself, but I absolutely know he's really tired, especially after that EW and short night. So why, oh why, won't he just go to sleep?! I've even started giving him Calpol and teething gel, just in case, although there certainly aren't any obvious signs of discomfort, I'm just getting really desperate and trying anything - is that really bad?? I've tried getting him down really early, I've tried keeping him up until he's really tired, and everything in between. I've tried a busy afternoon to try and tire him out, and I've tried a quiet afternoon to calm him down. I've tried going in to him several times to calm him down, and I've tried just leaving him to it unless he's really crying.
Anyone have a glimmer of light to share?? IS there an end to all this? Having discussed 'couple time', well ours is practically non-existent at the moment since I just can't switch off until he's finally asleep, so I seem to spend most of the evening stressing that he's not sleeping and then just collapse once he is!
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Oh (((hugs))) Trimbler. I could have written your exact post! Our days are going something very similar to yours & its exasperating. Can you post your EASY for the last couple of days or today at the least?
We reverted back to longer nap b/c DS seemed to be really OT, but like you, we don't feel DS seems OT at BT so we decided to try a later BT since he no longer seems tired at his usual BT (he's been taking 30mins+ to fall asleep). So he's been going to sleep at around 8pm after having had a capped nap of 1h 45, HOWEVER the last 2 days he's woken at 6.15-6.30am happy & chatty, and then by lunchtime he is in a right old state b/c his morning was too long after such a short night. Today we had screaming at naptime (b/c he was OT) followed by a 45-50min nap (shortest we've had in a VERY long time). He handled the afternoon really well but was utterly shattered by teatime. Still took him almost half an hour to settle at BT, asleep 6.30pm.
The more I try & 'fix' this the more I am coming to the conclusion that DS has just had a whopping increase in A times/drop in sleep needs. For him, I find that the later BT that comes with the long nap is just serving to make him OT so I think we will be going back down the nap capping route. I think he's going to need it capping considerably though if he's not tired at BT with 6hr A / 1.75hr nap / 5.5hr A.
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Thanks Claire, sounds like you could do with some (((hugs))) too! Just wondering, what do you do when he wakes early? Get him up or give him quiet time in his cot? I'm not sure how to 'count' my DS's time in his cot when he wakes early in the morning, because it's fairly restful and he's often trying to get back to sleep, even if he doesn't succeed. So even though technically today he had 6.5h A time in the morning, I doubt it was quite like actually getting up at that time and being on the go until his nap...
Our day today was:
6ish EW but in cot and trying to get back to sleep (no success)
7:15 Up (usual time)
12:30 Nap (straight to sleep, v tired!)
2:30 he woke
7:45 PD for BT... 8:25ish? Asleep
But yesterday was:
7:15 Wake and up
12:40 Nap
2:40 he woke
8pm PD for BT... 8:50ish Asleep, then EW at 6am :(
Interesting your observation about increase in A time etc, I do wonder the same, although I'm still too scared to go much beyond 5.5h to BT in case he just gets OT, thinking that if he always takes such a long time to get off then I don't want to end up with him not getting to sleep until 9:30 or something! And then waking up at stupid o'clock! I know our DS can manage ok-ish on 10.5h nights, which is what he was doing (sometimes less) quite recently when still on 2 naps. But I still think 11h is better... Will follow your progress with interest :)
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Just wondering, what do you do when he wakes early? Get him up or give him quiet time in his cot? I'm not sure how to 'count' my DS's time in his cot when he wakes early in the morning, because it's fairly restful and he's often trying to get back to sleep, even if he doesn't succeed. So even though technically today he had 6.5h A time in the morning, I doubt it was quite like actually getting up at that time and being on the go until his nap...
We usually leave him in his cot until 7am. He is generally happy to lay & chatter. I find this is moreso if his EW is down to UT than OT. When he wakes early due to OT he is usually not so happy, will sound restless like he's trying to go back to sleep & if he doesn't succeed then he will shout for us. We still try & leave him as long as poss but might get him up say 15-30mins earlier if he starts getting upset. I don't ever do anything like PU/PD or WI/WO at that time b/c in my extensive experience with EW I find it is futile - once they have had so much sleep they simply aren't gonna go back over IYSWIM? I usually count it as full A time b/c although restful in a physical sense, their little minds are still working on overdrive! But I know some don't count it at all, & others count it as 1/2.
Have you tried the earlier BT route rather than doing the later BT (just incase your BT struggles are down to OT since the transition is fairly recent) or is he having absolutely none of it ??? I'd say yesterday with the 8pm BTPD that may have been a tad too late but then who knows! I usually aim to have DS asleep by no later than 8pm, so we try & PD between 7.30-7.45.
Its funny b/c I see a similar pattern with your days as we are having. We are finding we get a later WU one day, followed by a short night & EW, followed by a longer night (catching up from the previous short night) & so it goes on. I am tending to think this is an UT/OT loop. UT from long night means short night the next night. & OT from short night means long night the next night & so on. Who knows what the next few weeks will bring but I really hope this is developmental & nothing more. I am so scared to cut his nap short in case in a few weeks he needs a longer nap again. I would soooo much prefer to let him nap what he needs but it seems he is using his nap to take what he's not sleeping at night (since I always have to wake him) & the long nap is simply killing his nights & making him really OT.
I'll keep you posted if I come up with anything!
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Thanks Claire, it's strangely reassuring to know that other LOs are doing similar things, even if the end isn't quite in sight! I would also like DS asleep by 8pm ideally, although I wouldn't mind 8:15-8:30 provided that he had a good WU time, previous night and nap. But I also see what you mean about the long night/short night pattern, although it doesn't quite alternate for us at the moment - it's more like long night, string of short nights, long night! I'm still very much guessing, today we had 6:30 WU, 7:15 Up, 12:30-2:30 Nap, 7:40 PD but I'm not quite sure what happened after that - very quiet in the monitor for about 15mins but then he made a few funny noises, then quiet again, then a few more funny noises at some point after 8, then quiet. Sounded very awake with his noises, but he has fooled me before with his sleep 'talking'! So let's see what the night brings, I guess I'm aiming at somewhere between 5-5.5h A to BT, depending on how tired he is - tonight he was certainly tired due to 2 shorter nights previously...
I did notice however that we ended up with a longer BT routine tonight, perhaps I didn't rush him so much when he wanted to grab things and was getting distracted... I had meant for PD to be 10mins or so earlier, but maybe taking a bit longer over things was what he needed, or maybe that was just a fluke!
I tend to agree with you about wanting to keep the 2h nap if possible, but then I guess once we're sure that it is interfering with night sleep (which must be a 'when' rather than an 'if'!), then the nap capping will have to start... So we've only just done the 2-1 and I already have an eye on the 1-0!
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How are things going Trimbler? Still pretty rough here atm. We had a run of 10-10h 20 nights after allowing a 1h 45 nap, he was asleep at 8pm & up just after 6am. While that could be worse, DS's behaviour was atrocious, & I know it was tiredness related. With the short nights he has to be able to handle such long A times & he's just too tired to do it. So we have resorted to capping again. Its a bit of a struggle to get the A times right though. DS is still taking a good 20mins to settle at BT & I think we may have to accept this is his new WD time in his cot, so perhaps we are going to have to put him in bed earlier. I am wondering if this is development related as he's recently had a massive language explosion & is talking in 4-5 word sentences & so he lays & recites all his words, particularly anything new he has learnt that day, so maybe he needs a longer wind-down in bed to process it all before he can switch off for the night.
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Claire - we are having similarly long wind downs now as L's language is increasing. She chatted for a whole hour before falling asleep for her nap yesterday!
Nap is currently capped around 45mins-1hr as we are having NWs due to teething but sure once these last four molars are through (2 are cutting now) and nights improve we'll have to cut it a bit more :(
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Yea I think this is just the way it is now.
She's getting her 2yr molars already?! O's started playing him up just after Christmas but they're still showing no sign of cutting yet. They just keep having bouts of flaring up, then it all settles down again.
WRT nap, I saw on another thread you've capped her nap even shorter. That gives me a little comfort b/c I've been so frightened of OT that I haven't dared cap short, but I actually think a nap on the shorter side (perhaps not quite that short lol!) may be just what O needs too.
What sort of nights are you getting with a nap of that length? And what A times does she do? Just interested to see your EASY, as I feel like I've not quite cracked O's yet. He's doing around 6hrs A in the AM, any more & he is OT for his nap (although he would probably still go down easily at 5.5hrs). We have capped at 1h 15 (simply b/c he wasn't settling with 1.5hr+ nap) & he is going to bed 5hrs later, so his day is 12h 15 long. And we are offering EBT if we think its getting too much. Today is day 5 of this so I'm hoping his nights will start to level off a bit & then I can see whether the shorter nap is helping or not. His mood seems to be improving with each passing day so that is definitely a good sign, I just hope he can get past the tiredness of the last month where its all been so erratic, its been a tough old ride! :P
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She's getting her 2yr molars already?!
Yes - she won't really let me into her mouth to check but I saw at least one of the bottom ones is cutting now when she did a big yawn when waking from her nap on Thursday. I am hoping the other bottom one is cutting too! Then just the top two to go... I cannot wait for her to have 20 teeth!
WRT nap, I saw on another thread you've capped her nap even shorter. That gives me a little comfort b/c I've been so frightened of OT that I haven't dared cap short, but I actually think a nap on the shorter side (perhaps not quite that short lol!) may be just what O needs too.
Yes - I am always scared to cap too much because it seems mean to 'deprive' her of sleep. But I do know now that with L if she naps too long we just get a really short night (late BT and same/early WU) and I'd prefer her to have a shorter nap and longer night. If she seems too tired after a capped nap I can (on days when I'm at home) do EBT anyway.
What sort of nights are you getting with a nap of that length? And what A times does she do? Just interested to see your EASY, as I feel like I've not quite cracked O's yet.
I don't think I've ever (or will ever) feel like I've 'cracked' L's EASY. Partly/mostly because she is low sleep needs and I am always reluctant to accept that! But as long as she's getting as much sleep as she can and we're all generally happy I think that's all I can ask for now so I suppose in that regard it might be 'cracked'.
At the moment, her EASY is something like (give or take 15 mins either way:
WU 6am
nap 12.45 for 45 mins-1hr
BT 7pm (but can take around 30 mins to settle at the moment (partly chatting, partly teeth discomfort) - usually asleep around 7.15-7.30)
There are a few NWs but not for long each time. So she's not getting all that much sleep at the moment in total (but then she has ALWAYS been below average in terms of sleep needs), but if she naps longer than an hour her BT becomes 8pm or even later, with WU still at 6am, so this way she seems to be getting the most sleep possible at the moment.
If I put her down for her nap earlier she just chats/plays for ages at the moment (even if tired!) but always ends up nodding off around 12.45-1pm.
Having said that, she's come down with a cold the last couple of days so we let her nap for 1hr30 yesterday, BT was fine at 7pm still and she also had a 'lie in' of 30 mins this morning. But I know she only needs/is having the extra sleep because she's ill.
On a slightly separate note, I met my SIL's MIL (IYSWIM..) the other weekend and she said her daughter dropped her nap completely at 18 months and she's never seemed to have 'suffered' because of it. Now she is a successful dentist and a really lovely person so I'm trying to bear this in mind when I'm telling myself that L is too young for such a short nap... Maybe I'll ask my mum how old I was when I stopped napping... But I doubt she'll remember! (She's proved v forgetful whenever I've asked about that kind of thing since L arrived!)
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I don't think I've ever (or will ever) feel like I've 'cracked' L's EASY. Partly/mostly because she is low sleep needs and I am always reluctant to accept that!
I think this is exactly our issue too. I think O is lower sleep needs than I'll ever dare admit!
I am always scared to cap too much because it seems mean to 'deprive' her of sleep. But I do know now that with L if she naps too long we just get a really short night (late BT and same/early WU) and I'd prefer her to have a shorter nap and longer night.
We are getting same now. 2hr nap gives 10hr night. 1h 45 nap gives 10h 20 night. 1.5hr nap around 11hrs.
We've been doing 1h 15 for almost a week now & yesterday we got a 10min settle time at 7pm BT (amazingly short compared to usual) & he STTN with no OT cryouts, up at 6.20am so 11h 20. We've had same length night the last 3 nights. Today I stupidly decided to let him have 1.5hrs (at nursery) & we'd planned to do later BT but he gave tired sign so we got him ready asap & into bed for his usual time (just incase he was OT) & he chatted for 30mins. So I think UT when we put him down, but that he was OT by the time he eventually fell asleep. We've had 3 cryouts already & these are usually when he's OT. I always have this worry that its the capped naps that have caused the OT so I end up reverting to longer naps, but TBH I think its the long naps depriving him of night sleep that seem to cause the most OT. So I think this is my case in proof that the long nap's gotta go. Boo!
My mum is equally forgetful about such things, but I also know of LO's IRL who have given up napping at 18months. Instead they slept 13-14hr nights. So I suppose it can happen. Its just not very 'textbook' or not what the majority of LO's are doing, so I end up feeling like I'm doing something crazy or stupid when I cut his nap back.
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All very interesting to catch up with you just now, as I've been busy/deprived of laptop time recently! Everything I've read on this thread seems to be about decreasing sleep needs, longer A times, shorter naps etc. But I guess I still struggle to get past the fact that our DS was on 10-20min am nap, 2h pm nap and 10.5-11h+ nights just a month ago before we went to 1 nap. So I find it really hard to believe that he might already be needing to cap that nap... For us, there have been other factors at play - noisy works on the railway line outside our flat, noisy mice in the wall cavity in DS room (eek!), possibly canines, possibly just taking a lot in (although I can't say there's much coming out speech-wise yet!), he certainly does get very excited/hyper, but that's always been an OT sign for him, unless he just needs more time to work it out of his system. Interesting to hear about long WD times in the cot, ours have remained long but thankfully they're usually < 1h now. But that does make it so hard to gauge OT/UT, doesn't it! So many times I've thought UT to start with, only to find he then gets OT and it's too late and we get that horrible short night again, 9-10h. He's certainly been tired for ages and much harder work during the day, more prone to tantrums etc. Anyway, that's just me rambling again to get it out of my system - I know I stress over this far too much but I just can't wait to have him happy and settled into a nice routine again! Not to mention more sleep for us!
Anyway, what I really meant to ask was - roughly how long after the 2-1 did you have to start nap capping again? I mean, for us it could potentially be immediate, I'd kind of hoped for a nice stretch of 2-2.5h naps before we had to do that! Did you ever settle into a nice routine after the 2-1, or did you have to start capping almost straight away?
Oh and another question - do you ever get really quiet when they first get PD at BT, for maybe up to 20mins or so, but not asleep, and then starting OT crying? No idea what that's about - I think we've finally got it right and he's just about to drop off, but then the crying starts and I know it's going to be a long time before he actually gets off. Other times it's just chatting away the whole time, and then I'm more certain about UT.
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So many times I've thought UT to start with, only to find he then gets OT and it's too late and we get that horrible short night again, 9-10h.
Yep we sometimes get this too, usually what I find happens is if he is UT when I put him in bed, then he will chat for ages goes past being nicely tired & ends up OT by the time he eventually settles & we get a disturbed, and short night.
how long after the 2-1 did you have to start nap capping again? I mean, for us it could potentially be immediate, I'd kind of hoped for a nice stretch of 2-2.5h naps before we had to do that! Did you ever settle into a nice routine after the 2-1, or did you have to start capping almost straight away?
We started 1 nap days at 12 months but he couldn't seem to handle it every single day til 15 months, so up to then we kind of alternated. TBH I didn't get him into a very good routine though - it was a real struggle for quite a while. But I did notice at the 14/15 month mark that if he napped over 2hrs we'd get a very short night(10-10.5), & we capped at 2hrs max at 15 months, so I guess it was fairly soon after the 2-1 that he needed me to do that. I think its a bit unrealistic to expect a 2.5hr nap + 11-12hr night at 18 months+ - if he'd done his transition at 12/13 months then maybe, IYSWIM?
do you ever get really quiet when they first get PD at BT, for maybe up to 20mins or so, but not asleep, and then starting OT crying?
No I don't usually get this - we usually get chatter then sleep or chatter for ages & ages. It does sound like it may be an OT thing.
I can't wait to have a happy settled routine again too.x
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Yes agree with all of that, Claire :) Well last night I think he must have been kind of in and out of very light sleep for about 45mins before crying out and needing resettling... I'm guessing he must have done something similar before, and yes probably OT. More promising tonight, I think he was disturbed by noises from his heater clicking on/off (we don't have central heating) but seemed to get to sleep pretty quickly after I went in to him... wait and see!
Right, I've now decided to just try and fix as much as possible for now and see what happens - I think you said you did something similar, Kara, if you're still reading along? So we're trying:
7:15 Up (whatever time he wakes)
12:30/12:45 Nap for 2h (flexible due to childminder, taking different times to settle etc)
8pm BT (PD time, allowing for some WD by himself in the cot before dropping off peacefully... or not!)
Hope you're all managing to stay sane and get some couple time in! One thing we've started this week is having a quick dinner together before DS goes to bed. We can't eat dinner with DS during the week, since on childcare days he eats there, and on home days DH stays too late at work for that, but we've found that DS doesn't actually mind us having dinner whilst he's still up, and sometimes joins us at the table and gets a few titbits. This feels like it gives us much more time in the evenings :) Before, it was kind of put DS to bed, make dinner, eat dinner, collapse in the sofa ignoring the washing up!
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oh ladies...although I love you..I have to say I hate to be back on this page but I guess we are not out of the dark...I posted back in March with a schedule gone crazy, but we got back on track within a week and have been GREAT with 2 hr naps and 12 hr nights 8pm-8am...well now all of a sudden this past week we are getting 1 hr naps and EW's...omg...I want to cry...I did an EBT at 7 last night, but she played til 7:45pm and she was up at 6:30 so I did a 12:15 nap rather than her usual 1pm nap (when she wakes at 8am) and she slept an hour ugh...I don't know what's going on or how to fix it...over the weekend i did a 7pm EBT and she slept til 7:30am which was great..but it didn't last... this WAS our schedule
8 am wu
1-3pm nap
8pm bt
now it's all over the place...here was today...
6:30 am wu
12:15 -1:30 nap
???? BT ( I don't even know but I'm thinking another 7pm EBT and pray i don't get an EW)
what do you girls think? any tips? I'm at a loss...she WAS doing 5-5.5 hr A times and doing great...I am so upset and miss my 8 am wakings terribly but these shortened naps are killer now too...help!!!!
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hun she may just be UT now. 12hr night + 2hr nap is quite a lot at this age & many LO's do less. We are also still struggling & have been trimming the nap more & more, but he is teething right now & so super sleepy again. We were away on holiday last week & so I spent more time watching him & he was getting tired at the 6hr mark, so we are more aiming for 6hr A / 1h 45 nap & then 5-5.25hr A. So day has looked something like:
Up 6.45-7am
Nap: 12.45-2.30 or 1-2.45
BT: 7.45ish
We're getting around 11hrs at night the last few nights. I feel sure this will get shorter again as he gets through this teething (only 2 wks ago we were getting 10h 20 nights with nap of that length) & so we'll have to go back to cutting the nap shorter.
So....I think you may have to accept a slightly earlier WU & try & shoot for a 6hr A before nap, OR perhaps you could try cutting her nap down a bit to 1h 45 or 1.5hrs & see what happens - what do you think?
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she seems to be cutting her nap herself :( I know that was a lot of sleep but it was nice LOL her molars are also coming through so I'm sure this isn't helping :/ I wouldn't mind a SLIGHTLY earlier wu but 1.5 earlier is nuts :( I just can't push BT any later...8pm is late enough...so based on what you are saying it should look like this?...
7 am wu
1-2:30/2:45 pm nap
8 pm bt
guess that 's pretty much what she is doing now anyway...yuck! I can manage a 7-7:30 wu but 6:30 is sooo difficult...obviously it is what it is but if I can do something to push it a little later like til 7-7:30 that be great.
I basically did a 6 hr A today and she keeps waking up from her naps a complete mess in tears and inconsolable. Which made me feel she is OT at this point which brought on the EBT's...
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I should also add I took her nap time bottle away 3 days ago...I don't really think/know if it's related to the shortened nap cause she more or less goes right to sleep like she always did. Now we just read a story and I give her a sip of her water. She has also been crying out in her sleep which usually means OT for her :(. Tonight I put her down around 7:15-7:20 (she's been up since 1:45) she fell asleep around 7:45...really hoping for 7 wu or later
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up and moving around since 6:15...think she MAY have gone back to sleep for a little bit but she is pretty much totally awake now atr 6:35...ugh! She's still laying down snuggling her bunny so I'm going to try and leave her til 7...unless she starts crying. So what do I do now? do I do a 6 hr A and pd for nap at 12:30 (her naps have been at 1pm for months) or do I push to 1pm and hope for the best? what would you do? I know I have to let go of the 8am wake ups at this point but is 7 too much to ask for with a descent nap? :(
UPDATE: baby girl slept 1 hr 50 mins whew best nap in a week almost...
today
6:35 am wu
1-2:50 pm nap
???? BT (this is where I'm not sure...want to find a way to push her wu til at least 7..usual BT was 8pm)
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Phew - just caught up! If only they didn't have teething/illness etc so we could actually work it all out! The scientist in me longs for fewer variables and a nice controlled condition in which to experiment :) We have tonsillitis and canines...
(((hugs))) Melissa - I guess I'm with Claire that she could probably manage a stretch in her A times. I'm still trying to work out what ours should be... My general strategy - partly out of necessity (childcare) and partly out of my desire to fix whatever can be fixed - is to keep DS in his cot until the time I want to get him up (going in to calm him if necessary), and set his meals and nap time whenever possible. So at the moment it's like this:
7:15am Get up (even if he woke earlier, or I have to wake him), bf, nappy and dress
7:45ish Breakfast
9-10ish snack
11:30 Lunch
12:30/12:45 Nap depending on how early he woke.
2:30pm Up - again trying to resettle him if he wakes early, usually successfully atm as he's been OT (snack)
5pm Dinner
6:45pm start WD, bath, bf, story time (trying to lengthen this recently)
7:45/8pm PD..... but can be anything up to 8:45pm by the time he's asleep :( The earliest it's been recently was 8:20 with 8pm PD - if we try an earlier PD we usually end up with 8:30-8:45 asleep so it just backfires!
I think we've found that if we try to stretch him to set BT/nap times and he's OT, he'll either resettle more easily or over the course of a few days he'll have got so tired or be waking so early that he will then resettle and then wakes again at a better time and we can start over. He used to respond really well to the EBT but that just doesn't seem to work here any more!
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If only they didn't have teething/illness etc so we could actually work it all out! The scientist in me longs for fewer variables and a nice controlled condition in which to experiment
LOL Trimbler - I am EXACTLY this too! If only it were that simple!
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Sigh, so ladies I think we have hit this :(
Z started waking with sore teeth, and around the same time I stopped BF. we did a dumb thing by giving him a bottle a few times in the night and now he is NW for one! ::)
We've slowly had more frequent NW too over the last 3 weeks. It's time to stop. dH and I are knackered.
Soooo, sleep training starts tonight. I know it's going to a be, Z is so determined and boy can he scream!
Do any of you have NW or just EW and nap/BT refusals
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We didn't really have NW Sara, just BT resistance & EW. Hoping your first night of sleep training went ok?
We're off the scales with sleep this week - O's been poorly so back to 2hr naps & 11-11.5hr nights, which is far more than he's been doing for the last 2 months now. Yesterday he woke coughing at 1hr into his nap, last night was 12hrs & he was pooped & asleep this morning after just 4hrs A when he usually does 6 so I know the wee man aint right. Taking each day as it comes until he's feeling better but am also secretly hoping we're finally through this awful phase & settling into a new routine of 6hr A / 1.75-2hr nap / 5-5.25hr A & 11hr night.
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Sara - we had NW too, as well as trouble at BT. Ended up co-sleeping when she NW. We're stopping that now and re-training to fall asleep indep at BT, but it's tough. With hindsight, I'd of course say try not to start doing anything it might be hard to stop, but I'm not actually sure we'd do anything different if we went through it again... At least with the co-sleeping we got to sleep!
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Well we didnt do WI/WO Zwoke hysterical, like he was having a night terror, or pain but I had already medicated. I just cuddled him for 20 mins then he went into the cot and slept Theresa of the night ??? I can't do WI/WO when he is I that state :( but he didn't wanna bottle so that was good :) - I wish Z would do-sleep. He only sleeps in his cot ::)
Hugs Claire, I hope your over it too. :) so typical, we enter as you exit it lol.
I've been reading this regression can last up to 2 monts!
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Oh bless him. Def did the right thing, WIWO prob would just upset him more. Could it be his teeth ??? Sometimes I wish O would cosleep too! Although he did take his nap on my knee today but that was after vomiting, no way he'd do it otherwise.
Hope this phase doesn't last too long for you.xx
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I orig thought teeth, but it's now too well timed - always sometime between 10.30-11.30 and I medicated before BT - ibuprofen so should last till at least 12. I do medicate with pamol just incase as I know he is cutting....I'm starting to wonder about NT actually but I know the screaming murder NW at this age are just part of the regression so maybe that's just our thing YK? W are having no BT/nap battles or EW either
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awe so sorry you are all having such a tough time..especially those of you with NW's I'd be besides myself if we had that. I don't know what happened but out of nowhere she went back to her old schedule..for now anyway...I know it's a lot of sleep for her age but I'm certainly not going to intervene. I believe if she didn't need it she would be doing it so going to let it go as long as she does it. so for the most part this past week we are back to 8pm-8am night sleep with naps ranging between 2-3 hrs (mostly 2 hrs...3 hrs just the one day)
I'm not complaining just afraid to get use to it and have it ripped away again :/ but I'll take it as long as she is willing to give it :) I have no idea if it will last but....
her teeth are FINALLY poking through the gums so hoping she's feeling more comfortable allowing her to get the rest she needs again...
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Sounds lovely, Melissa :)
(((hugs))) Sara and Claire - poor LOs sounds horrible... Hope O gets well and back on track soon and that this doesn't last too long for Z.
Well M seems to have got his energy back now after the tonsillitis, which thankfully didn't last too long. Still suffering with canines, but they still seem to be some way off cutting yet... Hope this thing doesn't last much more than 2 months - I think we're coming up to that now! Still taking ages to get to sleep at BT, I've tried cutting his nap the last couple of days but it doesn't seem to have made any difference - still doing PD at 8pm, possibly seems a little more tired than before due to 15mins less nap, but still doesn't get to sleep until 8:30-8:45 and then can have a slightly OT unsettled evening... But if I PD earlier he still doesn't get to sleep until the same time, so maybe I just have to PD a little later in the hope that he actually ends up falling asleep earlier ???
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Yay Melissa! Glad all is working out ok for you. IDK where we are atm, we think O is possibly cutting his 2yr molars but can't be sure as he won't let me look! But he is very definitely more sleepy than he has been in ages!
Before all the upset of the last 2 months we were doing: up 7am, nap 12.30-2.30 & BT 7.30.
Now we are doing up 7-7.15am, Nap: 1-2.45/3pm BT: 8pm
Today we let him sleep in til he was done, he was up at 7.30am (11.5hr night). But he still seemed sleepy this morning so I put him down at usual naptime 1pm instead of 30mins later. He went straight to sleep, I woke him at 2hrs, and then paid for it at bedtime b/c he wasn't ready for bed at 8pm, asleep 8.20-25ish. We have to wake him at 7am tomorrow for work so its a shorter night for him. Lesson learned - he def needs that AM A time to be nearer to 6hrs if he's going to take a 2hr nap - 5.5hrs is too short now, unless he has a much shorter nap, or he is UT at BT.
xx
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Interesting - was also thinking we need to stretch that first A time... Forgot to set my alarm this morning (ok as it was bank holiday!) so he woke us at 7:30 rather than us waking him at 7:15. Then did 12:45-2:30 (I woke) but possibly UT at BT?? Didn't get to sleep until around 8:40.
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OMG - We did W2S on the NW/NT and Z STTN :) Hoping it'll work again tonight as these NW are rubbish!
I know it's a lot of sleep for her age but I'm certainly not going to intervene.
I have noticed Z seems more tired ATM too, he is sleeping a bit more (even if you take the NW into account) - My guess is its teeth/developmental related ???
Claire - Great to see O is better and he seems to be sleeping well! :) :)
was also thinking we need to stretch that first A time
I certainly found even increasing Z's first A by 15 mins made him more tired at BT (and he did a shorter A after nap)
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thanks guys..yesterday she fought her nap a bit when with my sister...she always seems to do this with her..so her nap was a bit short 1.5 hrs compared to her more consistent 2+ hrs..she also woke earlier than usual again today at 7:15 a.m. rather than the 8am we were back to :/ kind of short lived but hoping this has been a fluke...we'll have to see I know it could be worse and I am going to start getting up slightly earlier in the morning in case this earlier morning becomes a regular thing for her in the end...
I honestly don't like to ever wake her in the morning or from a nap...I never really have...I just feel like if she's sleeping she needs to be...the only time I found it helped and did do it on occasion if I really had to was during a transition of dropping a nap. Of course every child and mother are different just always how I felt about it.
I think the fighting BT could be for so many different reasons...with my dd its not very consistent...sometimes she does other days she doesn't...I think just like ourselves, we sometimes have a tougher time going to sleep over other nights. I think the UT/OT debate for BT usually is OT more often than not...at least in my case...my dd tends to fight bt on a short nap...I'd think they can handle a longer A in the morning after a night's rest over a longer A after nap into BT...IMO. I hope you girls find what works for you and your little ones...and one thing i always did that made the road incredibly bumpy is try something once or twice and say this isn't working and change it up again. If you are trying something new...give it time to set in before tossing it to the side. Very hard to and I am incredibly guilty of it but in the end that is what worked for us getting through the 2-1 transition.
Even through this regression I honestly more or less stayed the same through it all and she eventually fell right back into things...except in the very beginning and what really set things into a good routine was extending her nap time and BT by 30 mins...so we went from a 12:30 nap to a 1pm nap and a 7:30 BT to an 8pm BT....after a week or so her sleep got 10x better, minus this recent bump in the road last week...
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I think we are hitting this too girls. Think it's separation anxiety for us. I am sure that we have the right A times and have a good balance of neither UT or OT! As once she is asleep she generally stays asleep for a good 2/3hours anyway!
Tonight has been the best night in a couple of weeks. We did some chamomile tea in her bedtime bottle and I waited until she was a bit sleepier before PD. I also medicated an hour before BT just incase although she seems fine. She rolled over as soon as I put her down and only cried a little as I shut the door. I stayed outside the door shushing and reassuring then left and we had gentle crying for 30 seconds. She also had a good nearly 3 hour nap today and has been struggling with naps recently so don't know if that helped too. Hopefully no wakings tonight as I am exhausted from the carry on last night! I refuse to start bad habits now that baby is less than 11 weeks away, I just can't afford to as I won't have time to fix things later :-( I put the heating on tonight hoping it might cause less night wakings (naughty Mummy!) if she's really toasty.
I am on maternity leave and am not missing a single nap or missing the routine at BT until things are absolutely settled. Going to sort sleeep once and for all now (haha)
I'm the same lilly528 - I never cap naps, just makes things worse for us and and causes BT resistance and NWs. She never really fights BT on UT, just wakes a bit earlier to make up for it :-D The only time I have woken her in the morning is for work and she's always a bit more resistant on those days! When we hit a bad phase I like to stay consistent to what was already working and just "tweak" PD time if we have to! I find that when things are going really good she will naturally drop part of her nap for me and wake happier.
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HUGS
Think it's separation anxiety for us.
I think this was it for us too...and a bit of teeth. We would have NT like NW and Z just wanted 20 mins of cuddles then would go back to bed. ::)
I got myself in a tizz about the entire thing, then 4 days ago just decided - its a phase, he is an independent sleeper, he will go back. DH and I made a plan. If screaming/scared we would comfort, then PD to sleep after 20mins. If he wouldnt settle DH would do WI/WO. Guess what, the next night he settled in 10 mins then the last 2 he has STTN again ;) We even thought we had a bottle prop starting as we fed a few times.
I guess all I am trying to say is it SUX big time, but try to remember that it will pass, and if you can try to relax a bit, and have a plan, with support thing will come right before you know it and you will feel more in control :-*
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Thanks Sara! I think the hardest thing is not knowing what to do for the best. Don't know if you've read our story but I did CC with Macy a couple of times between 7 and 10months and then read all the stuff about how damaging it is for LOs and kind of went into panic mode and to the other extreme end of attachment to make up for things. I still panic and cannot bear to leave LO to whimper for a minute while I do anything in case she thinks she's abandoned! Thankfully by then LO was already self-settling so we didn't create any props.
Now I have just realised how unhealthily attached me and LO are. Most of the problem is my own anxiety. We live in a small flat that's reasonably baby proofed but I never leave LO to amuse herself even for a second while I pee. I have been watching myself today and realise that even if I am moving across the other side of the room I hold my hand out for her to come with me or scoop her up (oh dear). I take her in my shower, for a pee, to answer the door, to get a glass of water etc. so she isn't getting any chance to develop any independence. Even when washing the dishes or cooking I sit her up on the unit next to me and chat/play (no wonder I never get anything done) rather than leave her playing and pop in/out to check on her. She has taken a mental leap this past month and I think is suddenly now able to associate sleeping with being left alone and she doesn't feel confidence alone. Even in the car today I realised I only last a minute or two before getting an overwhelming urge to turn round and reassure her and talk to her even though she's absolutely fine! It also dawned on me that we keep her bedroom in the dark with the door shut all day and it's only used for sleep even though it has about 100 toys and it's a lovely room it's probably so unfamiliar! So I have a lot of things to work on in the day time too.
Anyway, after that rambling my point is that when I put her down and she does her "scared" cry I'm frightened to leave her just even for a minute. I get to the door and turn around to go back in and OH points out to me that I haven't even given her 15 seconds to calm yet and that if she needs me she will still be crying after a minute and I can go back in. So I have been trying standing outside the door reassuring with my voice every few seconds and it seems to work. Strangely enough I have never been afraid of leaving her when she does a furious or frustrated cry with OT but it's this new cry that really scares me! Last night when I had to make a bottle and leave her crying for about 40 seconds (time the microwave takes to heat it!) I was so upset and flustered, dropped the bottle, left the fridge and cupboards open, spilt Calpol over the units etc.!!
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I think Oliver is starting to recover from his illness now. So much for secretly hoping, I knew this 'routine' & plenty of sleep would be short lived lol! Last night after having had a 2hr nap 1-3pm, he took 30mins to settle at BT, asleep 8.25. Had to wake him just after 7am this morning for work. He napped 1-3pm again..... and lo & behold he's chattering away up in bed again & its now 8.20pm. And this, even after having a shorter night last night - you'd think he would be tired right? I'm 100% certain its not OT either. ::)
I honestly don't like to ever wake her in the morning or from a nap...I never really have...I just feel like if she's sleeping she needs to be...the only time I found it helped and did do it on occasion if I really had to was during a transition of dropping a nap.
I honestly wish I could do the same as I HATE waking O. I actually think though, that part of this 18 month 'regression' is a natural drop in sleep needs, & I also think its the very very start of the 1-0. It seems that while some kids will keep their nice long nights & cut back their naps naturally, others will keep the lovely long nap but at the expense of their night. We are one of the latter.
So I think since this is the very start of our 1-0 & Oliver is cutting back on his nights, I don't see where else we can go except to intervene & cap his nap shorter again.
Oliver is already doing a 6hr A time in the AM & napping at 1pm, and BT is already at 8pm so I don't want to have to do a later BT, especially when I have to wake him at 7am on work days. So I think since this is the very start of our 1-0 & Oliver is cutting back on his nights, I don't see where else we can go except to intervene & cap his nap shorter again. I think I am going to trim it back to 1h 45mins from 1pm, but keep the 8pm BT. What do you think ladies?
(((hugs)) Stardust - I can totally relate since O is touchy too. It is so hard but I think that you are right - half the battle is letting go a little & allowing them to gain some independence for themselves. O was much the same - came everywhere with me, & tbh he still often comes if I go upstairs, but he does it of his own choice, climbs up by himself & entertains himself while I take a shower/ go to the loo etc. He is also getting better at waiting for me in a different room. If I go upstairs but shut the door to the stairs behind me leaving him downstairs he totally freaks, but if I leave the door open he is quite happy to come & stand at the stairgate & wait while I go up. He can see upstairs & chat to me etc & he's not shut off on his own. I think you'll find over the next couple of months as her speech improves you will find she'll gain so much more independence. :)
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Now I have just realised how unhealthily attached me and LO are.
I don think you can be too attached sweetie...and it is so much easier to gradually teach independence knowing they hve trust in you and feel secure braving the world than to try to force them to be loving, trusting, gentle children.
As Claire mentions gradually teaching independence at this age should work a treat :) At first you may not see much progress, then bam, she will no doubt suddenly be playing on her own for 30 mins ;)
My Z is pretty touchy and attached too. It used to worry me - people would say he is clingy. But he is also now very independent and determined when he wants to be. I know in the long run, as a child and a teen this will help him to be a better person, friend, lover etc.
this new cry that really scares me!
I have to admit, Zs cry through this regression was AWFUL, heartbreaking really.
I HATE waking O.
I feel your pain. I hate waking Z, but if I dont he sleeps for 3hrs and then wont sleep at night!!!!! ::) ::) So much for regulating himself lol
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I feel your pain. I hate waking Z, but if I dont he sleeps for 3hrs and then wont sleep at night!!!!! So much for regulating himself lol
Exactly! O would totally do same!
He finally went to sleep at 8.25pm, so bring on tomorrow! I just know I'm going to feel guilty & want to let him sleep in but I know its not helping things as he needs his 6hr AM A time. Think I may cap at 1h 45 again as from tomorrow.
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Hope you get things sorted eventually Claire!
So, our later BT is not helping :-S Yesterday and today WU has been at 6am meaning only 10.5hours sleep. And LO is one grumpy and tired little madam today! We only had 1 NW last night though and LO settled herself after just 3 or 4mins of mumbling and crying! I think I'm going to take a break from A times, nap times etc. for a few days because I seem to have gotten a bit lost and I think I'm now overthinking things and making things worse. Quite often I will see she's tired in the evening and think about starting BT routine but then I think to myself "Oh, but she's only had 3 hours A time so better not" but really I should be following instincts first :-S Just going to plop LO down when she's tired without checking the clock and doing the same at bedtime and then re-think in 3 or 4 days.
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Hi everyone,
Sorry, haven't had a chance to read through everyone's posts properly but just thought I'd post a quick update.
I don't want to jinx things but I think we are now (finally!) at the tail end of this regression (I don't want to scare anyone by saying when it started though ;)). The regression itself has prob actually passed but due to the 'props' we used to get through it (staying with her until asleep and co-sleeping after NWs) we had/have a bit of sleep re-training to do to get back on track.
The good news is that, once L was ready for it, the sleep re-training is going really quickly and smoothly. In about 7 days we have gone from staying with her, often with a hand on her, in her room for about 50 mins at BT until she was in a deep sleep, then creeping out, and co-sleeping from about 10pm onwards (on average, sometimes earlier) after a NW, to now where she goes to sleep independently again (sometimes with 1 or 2 WIWO at BT) and stays in her bed all night. Last night was best yet with no WIWO at BT with just 1 NW when I went in to see her and she calmed pretty much immediately and I was able to leave straight away and go back to sleep. Hoping for a STTN sometime soon...
Anyway, just wanted to say that what you read about them suddenly coming out of the regression does seem to be true. We had to do some re-training but she's getting back on track so much quicker than I would ever have hoped. So hope the same will be true for others in the same boat.
Oh, and SA also seemed to be a big part of our regression too.
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So great to hear Catherine :) :) :)
This is a tough one alright. We had two great days and STTN, but yesterday Z was so tired ALL day. I let him sleep longer for his nap as he had EW (Hadnt had that in ages) Last night we had 1 NW and I heard him in the wee hours of the morning. Then an EW of 5.45!!!! So as expected (and see my post above ::) ) This is what I get for letting him have a long nap and EBT!
Catherine - Its also nice to hear you mention SA. I think this is the root of our 1 NW. When Z wakes he settles fast with just acuddle from me and then goes back into bed awake. Unless .... its a teething or NT waking ;)
So even with an EW - Z want out of his cot till 6.45. I am going to hold his nap out till 12 at least. Cap at 2hrs from PD and then BT a min of 5hrs15 later. And X my fingers!
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stardust - sorry later BT hasn't helped - bum suggestion on my part. Sounds like a good idea to just watch her for a few days & see what she does. Just bear in mind tho that she may well have a few days catch up, then suddenly start to resist naps/BT and/or EW all over again - that certainly seems to have been our experience over the last couple of months.
Glad all is getting better at your end Cath.
Good luck tonight Sara!
We've had an awful day today. :( O had a very restless night - courtesy of UT at BT leading to OT by the time he went to sleep. And of course b/c he went to sleep sooo late, he was still sleeping at 7am this morning. Against my better judgement, I decided to wake him at 7.15am so as to keep the rest of his day on track but I tell you now I wish I hadn't b/.c that was the 2nd shorter night in a row & I have paid for it today with tantrum after tantrum after tantrum. I kept him up 6hrs A this morning (did nap a touch later due to later WU) & I woke him at 3pm. He's been foul all afternoon too. BT was 8pm & he has settled much better than the last 2 days. Just hoping & praying he has a solid night's sleep & we don't get an OT EW tomorrow.
I don't feel so stressed/concerned about it now tho b/c I know for sure what I need to do & that is to cap his nap.
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Ahh Claire that's okay. Got to try everything before we rule it out! My own idea didn't work either, I thought I'd get back on track by just watching her then everything would be fine *rolls eyes*. I PD earlier today -11.30 since she seemed whingy and tired and we still had a bit of crying (not major but still upsetting) and then she only slept 1hour15mins - that shows me. And was in meltdown by 5.00pm and refused dinner. Ahh. So BT at 6.30pm and I really can't see her sleeping any later tomorrow so all I have managed to succeed in doing is move her day even earlier. Oh well, I tried! Think we will just go back to keeping her in cot until 6.30, fixed nap at 12.30 and BT at 6.45-7.15 depending on nap length. I honestly don't think anything helps when she's in these phases and we just have to ride it out and it gets better on it's own! Remember a month ago when I was complaining about 13hour nights and monster naps, well now I wish I kept my mouth shut and just went along with it!!
Hope you have a better day tomorrow. What length are you going to cap his nap? I would go for 1hr45 for 2 weeks. Then try 1hour35 if it's still not working? But stick out the 2 weeks first! We have had an awful day today too with tantrums tantrums tantrums and clinginess! I always try to blame LOs poor behaviour on OT but TBH she isn't showing that many tired signs and if I can get her out and engaged in something and she's getting her own way she's in a perfect mood. I think it's just her personality :-(
Good luck tonight Sara - hope Z sleeps a good 11hours or so ;-)
I also have a quick question for everyone... how do your LO's react when they wake in the morning? LO used to lie in bed mumbling or chatting but the past couple of weeks she SCREECHES as soon as she's awake. It's not an upset or distressed cry just a screechy whinge that drives me insane. It starts to wind me up before I'm even out of bed and then it goes on and on all day just now! I struggle to keep LO in the cot until 6.30 now as I can't stand the noise any longer I just want to get her up for it to stop. We still use a monitor but I usually turn it off when I hear her since I can hear her through the wall and don't need to hear it any louder! I then sit waiting to get up as I can't leave the room as LO hears me (live in small flat) and screams to get up! I can't even pee or brush my teeth before going for her (and of course she demands breakfast the second she's up too so I still don't get to pee/wash face/brush teeth for a good 20mins each morning. It's starting to stress me :-( How on earth will I manage a hungry baby in the morning too?
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How was everyone's night? We had no NWs but a 5.30am WU time. My own fault for messing up yesterday I think! I managed to keep her in the cot til 6.30am but she was screeching and whinging to get up. I went in at 6.45am to lift her and she'd just fallen back asleep and was not happy at being woken. I have a feeling we could have AP'd her back to sleep with milk and a cuddle at 5.30am but if I'd gone in the SA would have started when I left and OH refused to get out of bed! *sigh* My LO is in a horrendous mood too - absolutely melting down when not getting her own way and throwing her food, cup etc. back at me :-( 13 days since we had MMR - I really hope it's just a side effect and this will pass within the next week. How on earth will I do night feeds or unsettled-ness with a newborn/baby and then get up with a grumpy toddler at 5.30am?
Today I am thinking of just going back to a fixed nap time of 12.30? Then if it's a 2.15nap like I expect I'll do a 7.15 BT?
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Hi stardust. IIWM I'd probably just gradually shift naptime & BT back towards usual time over 2-3 days rather than all at once, esp from such an early start, b/c my LO would be in a mess if I kept him up all the way to 12.30 from a 5.30 wake. If she will handle it ok though I'd say just go for it.
WRT your Q about waking in the morning, usually O will wake chatting & happy. If he wakes grumpy, moaning or crying its usually b/c he hasn't had a long enough night, either through OT, or b/c UT led to a short night (night 1 is usually ok but 2-3 short nights & he'll be foul in the morning). I do think that you need to be brave & get up if you need to pee or brush your teeth though! Even if she hears you, she really can wait. OK she may cry, but its only protesting, its not because she needs you. You have to do what you need to do in the morning before you can put your mummy hat on & deal with her. (((hugs)))xx
Well ladies after capping his nap yesterday 1.20-3pm, O went right to sleep at 8pm & STTN. I woke him at about 7.15-20am b/c he was still sleeping & I wanted to let him have as long as possible. Thing is I know we CANNOT have long nights AND long naps. Its one or the other. I'd rather he had the long night but ATM he doesn't seem to be too OT with an 11-11.25hr night & a 1h 45 nap, so that's what we're trying to stick with. That said he didn't settle for his nap today until 1.30pm, he was chattering for almost 20mins. So in excess of 11hr night means we get nap resistance even with a 6hr A time. Whoa!!! Looks like he'll only be having a 1.5hr nap today, I can't really have him napping past 3pm or he'll never be ready for BT at 8.
xx
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Claire that's exactly what I'm doing :-) I realised halfway through the morning that there was no way I'd be able to push her out to 12.30 in the mood she was in! So we did PD at 11.45, 5mins crying then 2hours15mins sleep. She has woken in a much better mood thankfully. She woke mumbling and I had 5mins to make the bed and open the curtains etc. (was napping) before going to her. Then she was excited as she spotted all her teddys in the cot and kept saying no when I asked her if she wanted to get up! Haha.
What time would you suggest BT? She woke at 2.05pm. I was thinking PD at 7pm then that's 5hours A (bearing in mind this is on the higher end of LO's afternoon A capability but I do think her A times have increased recently)? And if we have an 11hour night again that at least gives us a 6am start to work with tomorrow. I am awful nervous about tonight as it will be my first night since all the crying that OH won't be here for support at bedtime! I am still feeling quite upset about it. We can stay with LO for over an hour and eventually end up doing WI/WO (as she won't fall asleep with us in the room) but it takes 1 - 1.5hours and ALOT of crying. If I tuck her in and let her have a cry she has about 2 or 3mins of crying and then goes off. I'm not sure if it's even as long as that - by the time I've walked next door to the living room, taken a few deep breaths and sat myself down she's stopped. I am hoping that it's just down to feeling poorly with MMR as she's had an on/off temp, in a foul mood and not eating very well. I will medicate tonight and give some Chamomile Tea and extra cuddles.
That's great. It sounds like O is really getting back on track! I would wake him at 3pm too or BT and naptime will keep getting later and later. Hope he pulls another great night! I think you are going to find that a fixed cap time might not quite work and you will have to vary it. Some days like today you might have to wake at 1.5 but others 1.45 and if you've had a bit of a blip and OT is creeping in you can do 2hrs. I have no idea how you manage until 8pm, most of my friends LO's don't go down until 8 either. By 6.30pm I've had enough and want LO in bed so I can get my house clean and tidied and refresh myself enough for the next day! I'm in bed by 9pm at latest usually though.
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I have no idea how you manage until 8pm, most of my friends LO's don't go down until 8 either. By 6.30pm I've had enough and want LO in bed so I can get my house clean and tidied and refresh myself enough for the next day!
TBH its a struggle!!!! I like my evening time too & I have to admit the housework is suffering. TBH I'd rather have him going to bed at 7-7.30pm but with a 7.30pm BT & 12.30 nap we were getting 6am wakes, with just 30mins later he's sleeping in til past 7am. Does it make any sense ??? Nope. But if its working then I'm leaving it be lol! I've had my absolute fill of early morning waking with this LO, so IMO sacrificing a wee bit of evening time is worth it so we can all feel well rested. And b/c we're not getting up so early I can manage with a slightly later BT myself.
How are you feeling in yourself? Getting exhausted yet?xx
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Claire, great o is sleeping well for you.
I also prefer an EBT for Z, DH and I like a bit of Y time early on in the evening as DH gets up for work early during the week. I do also get though that if it doesn't work, it can be more of a nightmare with EW etc lol!
We had a NWat 10 again ::) he behaves like its teeth, but I'm not sure asits kind of always at similar time. He was so awful yesterday PM I had to medicate at 2pm so it could well have been pain.
At least we had reasonable WU of 6.45 again ;)
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I'm okay Claire, almost 30 weeks now :-) I was hoping that all our sleep troubles would be a thing of the past by the time new LO arrives but I've realised it just gets worse as they get older! I have had fatigue/exhaustion all the way through - I still go to bed at 8-9pm and nap during the day too. But glad I've finished work, it seems to be making a difference to my energy levels! How was O this afternoon after waking at 3, was he ready for bed at 8 and did he settle well? Hope he did! I would much prefer a 6.30waking than an 8pm bed but I'm not very energetic in the evening! But I agree, 6 is way too early for me too! At least it's Summer and you can still get out in the evening with O :-)
I did a 7pm BT here. LO settled well, much less crying (it almost sounded fake "aha aha aha" type) and was in a good mood up until about 6.20pm then started eye rubbing, tantrumming and wanting carried everywhere *rolls eyes* but she didn't put up too much of a fuss at bath/PJ time and drank all her milk. I got a funny video of LO being a madam at tonight and refusing to get OUT of the cot to get in the bath - shaking her head no and laughing at me because she wants to carry on playing in the cot (I've been putting her in there for 10mins and she doesn't seem to mind being left awake so maybe it' not SA?), this is the same refusal she does at getting ready for bed! I don't know how to upload it though but it has cheered me up after our recent BT fights!
Great WU time Sara! Shame about the NW and rubbish mood, does he have his canines yet? We have popped 4 canines last week so I'm hoping we get a little rest before the final molars come in. Would like them in before baby though!
Then are there any other sleep regressions I have to watch out for? Probably be unsettled when new baby arrives?
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Aww little monkey! Oliver does same thing when I say its sleep time, shakes his head, says 'no, playing', cries if I take him up but he always goes to sleep so I know he needs it. I didn't realise your LO was cutting teeth?! Could be part of the reason for your recent issues. Canines were pretty bad for O, & its not just when the tip cuts but when the widest part at the bottom comes through - that can hurt them pretty badly too. You'll probably have quite a while before the 2yr molars come. O got his canines at 13/14 months & he started teething his 2yr molars right after Christmas (16.5 months) & he's almost 21months & still no sign of them cutting. I've read they can cause them bother for a long time before they cut so I'm expecting several more months of this yet! Not to horrify you of course! I believe next sleep regression is around 2yrs old with lots of nap refusals - woohoo! Only 3 months to go for us - bah!
O settled well at BT thanks but I think he was maybe a touch OT. I'm at work tomorrow so I have to get him up at 7am. That will really suck, especially since he only napped 1.5hrs today. This is what is bothering me about this later BT - I am having to cut his nights shorter to fit with our working routine, and I always have worry he won't nap at usual time if I let him sleep in (actually he probably would nap, but he'd without a doubt be UT at bedtime). I'd much rather have him go to bed a bit earlier & be able to sleep in until he wakes naturally, since a) we want to encourage a long night and b) he will never feel rested if he is constantly woken from naps AND nights, but doing the earlier nap seemed to just be leading to early wakings. He really seems to need his 6hr A in the morning in order to settle well at BT & sleep a decent length night now.
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Stardust the is apparently a regression at 24 months :( but I've heard this is the worst by far! ::) poor wee girl may be sore with her teeth as Claire says
Hugs Claire, it's hard when you can't get their routine to quite match yours. I guess I'm lucky in thatnot working means ican be a bit flexible with WU
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I didn't realise teeth could still hurt after they cut the tip :-( She has the tip of all 4 canines. Moving teeth has always been a slow process for LO - her front teeth she got at 5months (I think?!?!?) are only just reaching full length now! I did give Calpol and Nurofen before bed tonight since she'd had a bit of a mild temp and febrile seizures run in the family (especially triggered by MMR, hence why it's delayed) so I'm really wary with the temperature!
So, BT went okay. Just a teeny bit of crying. No wakings until Daddy came home at 10.15 and she heard the front door and started to scream terrified again :-( I stayed with her, she doesn't want anything, just wants me to stand in the room! But she can't get to sleep with me there - keeps wiggling, turning over, looking at me etc. Had Daddy take over for 5mins while I made some milk so didn't have to leave her. Gave her a bottle of milk, cuddles and tucked her back in then I went to the door. She cried as I went to the door so I shushed her and said "it's okay" then every few mins I shut the door a little until I was standing outside the door with it just a crack open (still having to reassure her everytime I made a movement) then waited another few mins and was able to shut the door without her crying. Does this sound like a good way to deal with things? I don't care if the milk becomes a prop as it's comforting her for now with the terrified screaming and I can wean it in a few weeks when she is more settled.
Edit - she has woken TWICE since screaming again and has just woken a third time. Oh I need sleep. Hope this passes soon.
She is having a bit of seperation anxiety from Daddy in the daytimes. Today was unsettling for her, she got upset when he left for work then when he got home at 5pm he was only back 30mins and went straight out which is different as usually we're both here at BT. Then he'd been gone a minute and came back in as he'd forgotten something so this upset her even more - could this be why she woke when she heard the front door again as it's always Daddy when the door opens :-S Daddy has a bad habit of making a fuss when he is leaving and really doing lots of cuddles, putting her down then changing his mind etc. and always gets LO so wound up!
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Stardust - when L's canines were coming through (15-17 months) she got SA which improved a lot when we gave nurofen, so we know it was at least in part due to teeth. Do you think there could be an element of teething-related SA with your LO? Just a thought.
Hope tonight is better for you.
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She's really poorly today :-(
Temp been at 39.5 all day, been at Doctor who was a bit clueless and just said to keep giving Calpol and Nurofen and lots of water and will hopefully pass in 2 or 3 days. I thought it was maybe her ears but the doctor said she couldn't be 100% sure but her ears looked okay although very blocked with wax?!?! Last night was strange... up screaming on/off until midnight - just wanted cuddles and to stare into space and then she passed out at midnight and didn't make a peep until 7am when she woke with the fever! She napped 4hours today and I had to wake her but she was so unsettled, mumbling, crying out etc. anyway. She went back to bed at 7pm and has been the same - mumbling, crying out in her sleep. It's horrible and heartbreaking. I think I may admit defeat tonight and bring her into bed for a night/day or two until she feels better. OH says absolutely no way but I can't just leave her crying out on her own all the time and I don't have a mattress or anything to sleep in her room and there's no way I can manage on the floor at 30weeks pregnant! Poor lamb.
On the plus side, at least I know now that something is actually bothering her and she isn't just waking screaming for no reason. So I know that this will pass.
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Oh bless her. She sounds really poorly, poor love. I always have fear of creating props too but u know what - when DS is poorly I have absolutely no qualms about cuddling him to sleep & giving him the comfort he needs. I remember back to when I was a child - if I was poorly I wanted to lay cuddling my mummy. So I figure he probably does too. And he ALWAYS goes to sleep fine in his bed once he is better. So I think if she is that distressed then I would def get her in bed with you.
Hope she's feeling better tomorrow.
Nothing to report here. O was up 7.15am (11h 15 sleep) & napped 1.15-3pm, bed at 7.50 (he was a little more tired than I expected today)
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Yup :-( I am going in at 10pm to check her temp and give more Calpol/Nurofen if needed and I doubt I'll get her back to sleep again so will probably just bring her to my bed. When she had a sickness bug I brought her into my bed for 2/3 nights as she wasn't crying to wake me when sick and just laying in it and she did go back to her own bed no problem. At worst I'll have to do some gradual withdrawal or WI/WO or something for a couple of weeks I think - at least baby is still 10 weeks away! I am actually a little relieved that there's now a reason for the really poor sleep.
Great day for O! If you start to see OT creep in give him a 2hour nap just to catch up even for the 1 day (but then maybe he'd refuse BT and end up more OT eeek!). Hopefully another great night for you!
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Aww poor wee girl. Hope she comes right soon. Could be a virus or even those mean teeth causing chaos!
Great to hear Claire :)
We had STTN yay, but Z woke early. I medicated before BT so I think it's def teeth waking him at 10 ::)
Our day was WU 6.45
Nap 12.15-2.15
BT 7.15
WU this morning 6.10 eeek .....but I'll take it. He is pretty happy this morning.
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Aw, hugs Stardust. I hope your LO feels better soon. ITA with claire about giving cuddles/co-sleeping when sick. To deprive an LO of that when they're ill would be completely wrong IMO. You can get her back on track when she's better.
L is being sleepier than usual at the moment - we even had a 40 min lie-in this morning! I think it might be after-effects of the mmr she had 2 weeks ago. Can't think of anything else..
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Cath our LO had the MMR 2weeks ago yesterday and it's what triggered all this off. Still have bad fever today :-(
It feels like she will never sleep again! I have tried bringing her into bed but she just cries and kicks, rolls away or lays there staring. Tried feeding or rocking her to sleep in my arms, walks in the pram. Nothing can get her to sleep :-( The best I have been managing is holding her in my arms until really sleepy then transferring to cot with a bit of crying and standing outside the door reassuring. I feel like a failure as should be able to cuddle or comfort her to sleep in my arms when ill but she just can't fall asleep.
We've been up since 5am and she finally went to sleep about 11.50 and is still sleeping. She did cry out in her sleep every 5mins until 1.30pm though so don't think she got much deep sleep. Fever is reducing slightly so FX'd on the road to recovery.
I am exhausted but can't sleep because of noisy neighbours :-(
ETA - She's up and still crying, refusing food and hot so just heading to out of hours/A & E as I'm not happy with the doctors guess that she doesn't have an ear infection! Hopefully back on to update later.
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Can you believe my luck!?!?!
Got a bag packed for us and LO as she woke up still really poorly and we went off to the nearest hospital 45mins away accident and emergency. There's also an Out of Hours GP Service there but you have to get an appointment through NHS Direct and I didn't fancy waiting around for a call back and then being given a stupid appointment like 10pm as usual.
So went to A&E, LO perked up in the car on the way and was happy and running around the waiting room playing with the toys, temp had come right back down to normal. We were seen quickly, a nurse came out and checked her pulse and temperature and looked at me and OH like we were crazy and told us we shouldn't be in A&E and it was something we should see the GP about! We basically begged to have a doctor check her over so he came out and had a quick look at her, said she looked well! Then had a look in her throat and said it looked infected/swollen and pointed out the wax in her ears too :-S But said it would more than likely be viral and just to take her to our GP on Monday. Gave us a numbing throat spray to help with eating but all the chemists are shut until Monday.
So we came away with nothing and and a wasted 3 hours!
Anyway after all that off-topic chat... LO now seems suddenly recovered and happy, has had some dinner and been playing and dancing all night and is now completely UT from her 4+ hour sleep today. So looks like an 8pm bedtime if I can even get her down by then as she is very happy to be feeling better! Will medicate for another night anyway as she is still a teeny bit warm but I'm hoping there will be no NWs and coming into Mummy and Daddys bed to moan tonight aha ;-) At least she is better and after the next few days or week I can begin to see whether we are actually in a regression or if it was just illness! Wish us luck!
xx
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Hugs stardust - sounds like a really rough day. That's great she seems to be feeling better now though. Hope you get a good night tonight.
If it's any comfort, I have never been able to comfort L to sleep in my arms, not even as a NB ::)
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Oh (((hugs))) how frustrating. Well I suppose at least she is feeling better. FX'd she goes down ok tonight. IIWM I would push BT as late as you can - last time we had a day like that with 4hrs sleep DS went to bed at 8.30pm & was up at 6am due to UT.
L is being sleepier than usual at the moment - we even had a 40 min lie-in this morning! I think it might be after-effects of the mmr she had 2 weeks ago. Can't think of anything else.
Do you know I am wondering if this regression & the developmental leap that goes with it lead to them needing an increase in daytime sleep again. Its like during the 2 months they don't barely need to nap at all & then suddenly they do again.
We also had a lie in this morning! Put O to bed slightly early last night at 7.50pm (he was up at 7.15 & had napped 1.15-3) and he slept in til 7.30am this morning! I'd intended to wake him at 7.15am latest, but I fell back to sleep & woke up with a start when Oliver started chatting! Needless to say, we had to do a later & shorter nap today so 1.30-3pm & BT was 8. He's taken 20mins to settle so I'm not sure if he may have been a wee bit OT or if he wasn't quite tired enough, after having such a long night last night.
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Hugs stardust. The can be so up and down when poorly. Zac had an ear infection and was fine 80% of the time, but the other 20 was awful! hope she comes right soon. Lots of pamol and cuddles x
Yay for lie ins Claire. We had a 7pm BT 9.30 screaming for 5 mins with teeth then 6.30 WU. Not too bad I guess. ::)
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Phew, still seems to be feeling better today :-) Mood is still a bit rubbish with me but she is being a real angel for Daddy!!!
BT 7.45pm (wish I'd been here to listen and made it later Claire) and she woke around 5am so 9hour15night eek! Must have been UT as didn't start getting tired until near 11am. Daddy PD at 12.15 for nap and she went to sleep, no crying and is still asleep now 2hours45mins later. I am going to wake at 3hours as that's plenty of sleep even if she is getting over being poorly! And I will pay for it tonight. Tomorrow I think I am going to have to cap at 2hour15 and see how that goes. I hate capping :-( but don't see what other choice I have if she's only doing 9hours at night and then making up for it during the day. Hopefully it will only be for a week or two until she fixes things herself.
What should I be aiming for now? I would love a 6.30WU and 6.30/7BT. I am thinking that her 2hour15nap is going to be too much now but 1hour30 definitely isn't enough. Will see how this goes for a few days -
WU 6.30 (well EW but in cot until this time??)
Nap 12.30-2.45
BT 7 - 7.30
If it doesn't work after 3 days should I cut 15mins off the end of the nap? I am absolutely dreading this nap capping :-(
Daddy's turn to do BT tonight meaning she probably won't cry (has awful SA from Daddy just now and won't let me do anything for her while he's here) and I can start afresh tomorrow.
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Sara - how are things going?
Stardust - perhaps do 2h 15 for next few days until she is better, then why not cap at 2hrs? 1.5hrs would be quite a jump when up to now she has always had such long naps. And I think a 2hr nap is a pretty good & restorative nap so you shouldn't feel bad for waking her. If you ask around on here you'll find most mums do wake their LO's b/c there comes a certain point when 'deliciously long naps' as Tracey calls them, start to eat into night sleep. So at the end of the day, if it helps her to sleep longer at night & she's getting more sleep overall, then its for her benefit.
A few things I have learned, having (hopefully) come out the other side of this regression are that
1) Oliver is suddenly more sleepy again - YAY!!!!
2) he needed his nap pushing to 1pm & so he was doing a consistent AM A time of 6hrs (rather than 5.5hrs)
3) he needed a slight nap cap at 1h 45.
4) PM A time has stayed the same at 5hrs
HTH ladies.xx
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Stardust - perhaps do 2h 15 for next few days until she is better, then why not cap at 2hrs? 1.5hrs would be quite a jump when up to now she has always had such long naps. And I think a 2hr nap is a pretty good & restorative nap so you shouldn't feel bad for waking her.
I was going to say the same thing.
Had written up a reply but have a screaming child this morning so it never got posted before ::) :(
We are good. Z was knackered yesterday so EBT at 7. We then had 5.20am giggling!!! Then back to sleep till 6.30am. I think I need to push that nap out later a touch - maybe cap the nap at 1hr45 after a few days if nothing changes - What do you think Claire?
Im reluctant to cap the nap yet, if moving it can work as Z is so tired while teething. :-\
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Well, BT last night was 7pm after waking her at 3.15pm (so 3hour CU nap). OH says she went down for nap and bedtime without crying but he does like to make out that she settles better for him than me so I suspect he's telling fibs and she had a little cry ;-)
LO is back to normal. Woke at 5.05am this morning with a moan. I switched the monitor off as I always do when she wakes early and waited for her to call out for us but she didn't until 6.45am!! So I think she must have gone back to sleep in between as she doesn't seem tired! No idea what time she went to sleep or her actual WU though!
I am torn today! I really want to take LO to soft play as the weather has been horrendous but it means going to another town and LO will more than likely fall asleep on the way home in the car meaning only 45mins all day. So I can do EBT to make up for it. But I feel like we are making progress and am really nervous about messing things up and back to square one! Can't let sleep rule our life though can I :-S
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Sara - what is your routine looking like now? What is his usual A time in the AM - 5hrs or 5.5??? It does sound to me like you need to push the nap later a bit, esp if he keeps waking early. That is usually the sign for us to push things out too (I say this in retrospect as I never realise it at the time lol!).
Stardust - IKWYM about being torn about straying from routine - I'm afraid I'm a stickler though so I try & keep to it wherever possible - I even did on holiday! But you are right we shouldn't let sleep rule. What did you do in the end?
We've messed up a bit in the last 24hrs, its been going so well with up 7.15, nap 1.15-3 & BT 8pm. But it feels like his whole routine is shifting a bit late, so PD 15mins early for nap & BT yesterday. Well, he went right to sleep at BT, but we got a short night in return. What was I only saying yesterday about keeping his AM A at 6hrs being really important!!!! Duh!!!!
To top it off, after a 6.30am WU (which ok isnt so bad but is 45mins earlier than usual) he was at nursery today, he didn't settle well for his nap, took 30mins to fall asleep & then only napped 1h 10. He ended up doing almost 7hr A in the AM, a 1h 10 nap & so we did EBT at 7.15pm, and he didn't fall asleep until almost 8pm. We're going to have one OT boy on our hands tomorrow. Thank the Lord he is going to grandma's!!!!
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SO yesterday he was tired all day. It must be the molar (#3 top left) cutting. He cried out during his nap and so I let him have a bit longer. Then he went to bed a bit later and then we had a problem in his room with hte monitor. We had STTN but a single cry out at 5.15 up for day at 6.40 - out of cot at 7.
SO here is our typical day now
WU 6.30/6.45 usually and out of cot at 7.
Nap 12.15 for 2 hrs
BT 7.15
My thought is to first try nap at 12.30 today...wake at 2.30 and BT the same? Last time a 15 min first A increase helped - and we kept BT the same.
(HUGS) on the rough 24 hours Claire x
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Hurray for grandmas ;-)
I'm a sucker for routine too. My friends are always exasperated at me as I keep turning down lunchtime playdates etc. as it just interferes with naptime and isn't worth it for us! I live in a small town/village about 45mins from my parents and sister (in the main town) though so generally once/twice a week we go for a visit and it messes our routine as if we stay the whole day LO won't nap even AP'd (unless I go a long drive out of town but she still only does 1 sleep cycle) and if I go early morning and come back early around 11am LO still falls asleep in the car and won't go back down the rest of the day. I haven't missed routine at all the past 2 weeks. Didn't go today, LO was really quite grumpy and tired by 9am so we just went out walking and to park. Going to have to brave it tomorrow I think though.
I couldn't bring myself to wake LO :-( I just couldn't do it!!! She was in an awful mood all morning and I really really struggled to keep her awake. Decided just to stick with the fixed nap at 12.30pm as it's always worked before in the end to discourage the EW. She slept 12.25pm - 3.25pm (woke naturally) and was very happy on waking and in a lovely mood for Daddy coming home so I am quite glad I didn't wake her. I thought she had a slight fever again today, I think her top canines could still be sore? I can just feel the tip but the gum was really bulging and she was dropping saliva like a hungry labrador all day! She was pretty tired by 7pm and starting to tantrum and was rubbing her eyes etc. and asking to get out the bath so went to bed about 7.30pm. I know that I can't keep these long naps and the reasonable BT though :-(
Still letting out a good scream at BT/naptime! She kicks, arches her back etc. while rubbing her eyes and fighting against us as we get her into her sleeping bag and try to get her to sit quietly then screams once we put her down in the cot but it literally lasts less than 2 minutes and then she's sprawled out Zzzzz-ing.
I think I am going to wait the rest of the week to see what happens with the EW before starting to cut back on naps. I figure that I've never had to do it before and if I keep her getting up and PD times consistent she might just adjust herself - she is normally quite good at capping her own naps.
Sara - yes I would push out that morning A slightly since his WU is creeping earlier x
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Agree Sara. I would def try 12.30pm start for his nap. Then see how he fares WRT BT. He might need 7.15pm still, or you might need to shift it on to 7.30. Perhaps keep it the same for a week while you push out the nap. If his WU doesn't shift any later or he is struggling with the longer A to naptime, then try pushing BT 15mins later & see if this helps his WU get nearer to 7am.
Stardust - sounds like a good plan. x
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Thanks ladies :-*
So Z was happy as a clam come 12.15 then when I PD at 12.30 he did a tiny whine a few mins after he was in bed. Its odd as he seemed tired at 11.30 but I think that was partially being in the car and partially teeth (I gave pain meds at 11.30am) I feel confident he 'shouldnt' be OT as he had a solid 11hrs last night AND he has been doing the A before (15mins diff) for a long time
We will see what this nap brings ;)
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How did the nap go Sara?
We did BT at 7.30pm after LOs 3 hour nap. STTN. Single call outs at 4.50am and 5.25am ish! But not actually awake until 6.20am and very happy. So the long nap definately has to go :-( Wish she would cap it herself, I think it's because of the earlier wake she is OT when I put her down for nap meaning she does a very long CU nap. So I don't if I can fix this without capping. So I either need to cap the nap or go for an 8pm BT. Not sure which I think is worse yet!
Not quite sure what we're doing today either. We have toddlers from 9-12 then I was thinking of going to visit my Mum and sister so LO would catch 45mins on the way and then another CN on way home or an EBT. But I don't want to go backwards :-( So I could always come home for nap after toddlers, let LO have her 3hours then go visit Mum/sister and come back after dinner and do the later BT. Or I can wake LO after 2hours15 and let my Mum and sister deal with the grumpiness :-D and then come back for normal BT - my fear being that she will fall asleep on way home because I've capped the nap and then end up even more UT at BT :-S
I guess that in the end the only way to break the long nap/short night cycle is to cap the nap!
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I woke him at 2.30 and BT was usual 7.15... Will see how the night goes!
I've always had to wake Z from his nap, but I found a long nap short night didn't restore him as well as a capped nap and longer night, hence why I have to cap. Something to maybe think about :-\ hugs it isn't fun capping naps
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Ugh I'm feeling so lost :-(
LO has been so unhappy this morning - warm/hot but not a high fever. Grumpy, tantrums, throwing food at me etc. and rubbing her eyes. I don't know whether she's ill, teething or just OT. She's not poorly as such, just "off" and clingy and moody! We went to toddlers group but left as by 11am as she was awful - normally she's brilliant at toddlers group :-( Speaking to the Mums at the toddlers their opinion was just to keep putting her to bed when she gets like this, let her sleep and wait for her to come out of it. She is sleeping already 45mins earlier than usual.
I'm not going to cap today either, LO will be horrendous this afternoon if I do! I am keeping a note of her wake, nap times etc. and think I may carry on like this and see how much influence her naps and BT actually have on WU time.
ETA - What a strange day!! Horrific morning, very OT! LO then slept 1.5hours only from 11.45 - 1.15pm and woke chatting, singing and laughing!! Fantastic mood all afternoon, got to visit my sister and family. Home for 6.20pm and really rushed BT as she had been eye rubbing etc. since about 5pm, it was all very matter of fact rather than my usual drawn-out wind-down, put LO down at 6.40pm and NO CRYING - how amazing! But then at 7pm I could still hear her mumbling, rolling etc. and went in and she was just laying quietly awake playing with her teddy. Maybe not enough wind-down as rushed BT? So tucked her back in and left and she has now been crying on/off for 5 mins - sounds like her OT fussing/crying (she is quiet now in the time I've take to write this) :-S What happened here? Would you have left her or gone in like I did to make sure she knew it was BT?
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Hi again, can't catch up with you completely I'm afraid - I blame it on M not getting to sleep until silly o'clock leaving me with very little evening... and naps haven't been so great on days when I'm at home with him either... so I'm back on again for a quick moan before giving up on this present nap!
Claire - hope things are going better again now? I really hope that day comes soon when M's sleepy again! At the moment (ok for the last couple of months at least!) he's just been so hyper and still finding it really hard to wind down, I just don't know what to do, I try putting him down a bit earlier if I know he's really tired, but he still doesn't get to sleep until around 8:30pm nowadays, and that's way too short, especially when he wakes early around 6:30 - not all the time, but too often for my liking! So today he was actually still asleep at his usual get-up time and I made the mistake of letting him sleep 10mins longer, so I woke him easily at 7:25 and went for usual nap time at 12:45... slept about 1h 10min :( :( I only let him sleep longer as he had got himself into one of those silly OT loops where he was sleeping less and less well the more tired he got... now that's backfired horribly and he'll be so OT if I aim for his usual BT but will most likely take at least 45mins again to settle anyway and blah blah blah...
I'm beginning to wonder about trying for a 1pm nap now, we've only just moved it to 12:45, capping at 2:30, but it doesn't seem to have made any difference to the time he gets to sleep at night, it just means he gets more OT as he's getting less daytime sleep?? So now I'm not sure, do I try stretching him longer in the morning, keeping the 2:30 nap end time and hoping that it will finally make a difference to his night sleep?? Or keep to 12:45 for a bit longer and hope that something improves? It does often feel like the cliche mistake of doing the same thing again and again and expecting different results! But then I never really know whether it's routine/teething/development. We're suddenly getting lots of words now and he'll wake early from a nap or night sleep going 'tick tock, tick tock' - he's really into Hickory ory Dock at the moment! So I'm wondering if it's not even routine related but he just has lots on his mind... really no idea what to do about that though!
So anyway, sorry for the one-sided rant, I'm afraid I don't feel like I have any advice to offer whatsoever at the moment, since nothing's working for us :(
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Hi trimbler
First a big hug, it's so hard sometimes isn't it :-( Honestly the best piece of advice I can give is not to upset yourself and dwell on things so much, sometimes our LOs just go through phases where nothing we do helps and we just have to wait it out - good sleep WILL come to you again! I think there is a big developmental leap going on around this age - I know that my LOs understanding and speech have suddenly shot through the roof, she can suddenly eat with a fork, answer no/argue with me and is really discovering and asserting her independence. Their minds must be completely in overdrive at this time!
So LO is napping 12.45, capped to 2.30? And what time are you putting down at for BT and how long does he take to fall asleep? 8.30pm is very late with such a long day and capped nap!
Today's nap looks UT to me hun. I guess 7.25WU was after a good night? Then that's only 5hour10min A to nap time and most LOs here seem to be taking a big jump towards 6hours morning A around 18months. The longer morning A also helps to discourage a shorter night/EW! You are right that he will now be OT at BT too as that short nap can't sustain a long enough A to BT :-(
I hope I helped a little, we are only just learning and discovering toddler sleep and I'm sure the girls will be here with more input soon.
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Edited my last post re M's sleep to save confusion of writing about today again!
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TBH its a struggle!!!! I like my evening time too & I have to admit the housework is suffering. TBH I'd rather have him going to bed at 7-7.30pm but with a 7.30pm BT & 12.30 nap we were getting 6am wakes, with just 30mins later he's sleeping in til past 7am. Does it make any sense Nope. But if its working then I'm leaving it be lol! I've had my absolute fill of early morning waking with this LO, so IMO sacrificing a wee bit of evening time is worth it so we can all feel well rested. And b/c we're not getting up so early I can manage with a slightly later BT myself.
I feel the same about the later BT...but I have an 8 yr old too that isn't in bed until 8-8:30 anyway so I am not really losing much but it IS harder to have them both up but worth the later wu time.
She is all over the place...days of the perfect schedule as I've posted in the past 8-8 and a 2+ hr nap but then once in a while she throws in a 7 am wu and a 1 hr nap! I don't get it...I am trying to just roll with the punches and keep doing what we are doing because more times than not she falls back into it...guess every day can't be the same....this is such a hard thing to go through...sleeping and eating can be such a stressful part of raising these precious little ones...thank god for this forum right?!
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Thanks stardust - what you described about tonight is pretty usual for us, sometimes I think it's UT turning OT, sometimes just inadequate wind down (but as I said I have no idea how to calm M down nowadays), sometimes I even think he's asleep but then realise he's not... sorry can't be any help other than to say we get this too.
So, what we've been trying recently is:
0715 Up (but he may wake as early as 0615 on a bad day)
1245 Nap (capped to 1430)
2000 BT - maybe once a fortnight he'll fall asleep quickly, the rest of the time not until 2030-2045. But whenever we've tried an earlier PD (say, 1930-1945) he's not fallen asleep until about the same time, and it has usually felt more like UT than OT, unless he's had a run of EWs/bad naps, in which case he's OT by BT but again, earlier PD doesn't seem to help either.
Yesterday he'd woken early after a short night (something like 2045 - 0615?), got him up 0715 and kept same nap times at the childminders but knew he'd be more tired than usual even though he didn't seem so tired, so DH did PD at 1945 (I was out) and it still took him until 2030 to get to sleep. So that's why I let him sleep a bit later and stuck with the same nap time - guess I won't be doing that again!
Today he's had a rough afternoon after that short nap and I PD'd at 1930 thinking it'll probably take him at least 45mins to get to sleep again and indeed he's been throwing himself around his cot squeaking and talking loudly (and 'tick-tock'ing!), 25mins in and he's starting to get quieter but he often goes through several loud/quiet phases on the way so I'm not holding my breath just yet!
Is it quite common for these LOs to just need a long time to wind down in their cots by themselves around this age? He just doesn't seem to calm down with me whatever I do and it pretty much always takes a silly amount of time to get to sleep whatever we do with his routine. I'm wondering whether I just need to accept this now? I guess I'm a bit desperate to get some evening back and some more sleep myself! Not to mention having the possibility of getting a babysitter without them having to put them to bed or keep going into him - I know that he wouldn't take very well to that! [Oh dear it was looking a bit hopeful just then but the phone rang...argh!]
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Hugs trimbler, we went through the long BT settling a while back. I agree with stardust. I think you may need to push that nap later, then keep BT the same, or even earlier. W have been moving our nap later over time and BT generally stays the same, or a touch later. When I tried to push it too much I got long settling at BT too...slits so hard know if UT/OT or just a loop isn't it!
Well ladies yesterday was
WU 6.35 out of cot 7
Nap 12.30-2.30
BT 7.15
WU this morning was 6.30 :) STTN fingers crossed for tonight!
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My friends are always exasperated at me as I keep turning down lunchtime playdates etc. as it just interferes with naptime and isn't worth it for us!
Mine too..many friends and family get upset with me when I miss things due to her nap but I'm sorry I'M the one who has to get up at night or early in the morning or spend a week to get her back on track so no it's not worth it to me either...or to her
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phew you've been a busy bunch! here goes....
trimbler - I agree with the ladies. Your situation is so very similar to what we've had with O & things have been so so much better here since I pushed his nap later to 1/1.15pm. I have had to cap at 1h 45 though, as with the 2hr nap he won't settle until 8.30pm. And I HAVE to wake him by 7.15pm latest so he can get his 6hr A time in - any less & it means he is UT at BT - its made such a difference to us. I've tried to pull his nap earlier by 15mins in the last couple of days & mucked it all up, but what was working really well for us was:
Up: 7.15 (I was waking him every single day)
Nap: 1.15-3.00 (capped at 1h 45 or he is UT at BT)
BT: 8.00 (put him in bed 7.50pm & straight to sleep)
stardust - yk, I think that may have been an UT nap today, esp since she woke so happy. I agree with Sara, in my experience, O also struggles with long nap / long day & does much better with slightly shorter nap/shorter day. Simply because if he takes a 2hr nap his 2nd A is longer, so he ends up doing 11.5-12hrs total A time in a day rather than the 11hrs max he does if his nap is capped at 1.5-1.75hrs. You are right she is only doing such long CU naps b/c she is waking early & so she is shattered by naptime. But why is she waking early? Because her nap is too long. If you cut the nap back & her nights start to lengthen, you might find that after a couple of weeks of longer nights, she won't need such long naps & her nap will naturally start to cut shorter. Think of it as just starting her off on the right track!
well, after yesterday's long day & short nap, Oliver only slept 10h 50 overnight boo! Up at 6.40am. MIL held him out til 1pm for his nap but he short napped again 1h 35 today. Not so bad as only 10mins short, but he had massive bags under his eyes tonight ugh! And he didn't settle until almost 8pm AGAIN. Siigh! I'm home with him tomorrow so I hope he's not too grumpy & tired!
ETA: forgot to say Sara I think that looks good for today so hope you get a decent night's sleep!
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Hope O had a better night! Maybe go for 2hour nap today if he is quite OT if you can manage to fit it in without making him UT for BT :-D
No idea what's going on here. You're right that yesterday was UT as she was in a great mood afterwards. Just really strange that she was so OT in the morning!
LO had a 11.5hour night after her short nap. Woke at 6.30am in a pretty rubbishy mood so we've been outdoors all morning to keep her going. She kept going to drift off in the pram (never does this!) and I was having to distract her or get her out to walk so she still hasn't caught up yet!
Home, did lunch at 12 and PD at 12.25 - LO was pretty shattered by this point and rubbing her eyes and getting a bit obnoxious - kicking me, screaming etc. On PD she just started bouncing around the cot so I left and there was no crying. 15mins later she is still chatting, rolling etc. I think I pushed her too far :-( This happened at BT last night too which would have been OT after the short nap and long afternoon A. Will hold out 5 more mins and then go in and tuck her in and tell her it's sleep time or she's just going to carry on for an hour instead of napping (edit, once again by the time I've finished typing she appears to be asleep)! OH thinks that I should just leave her as she needs to learn to fall asleep on her own again without screaming, WI/WO etc. but I feel like I am wasting valuable routine minutes when she's just carrying on!
OH thinks we should start to cap around the 2hour mark, I don't see we have too much choice any more as we now have a poor morning mood due to OT and then a happy afternoon mood after CU but still UT at BT! So I think I may just have to bite the bullet and start today. I feel pretty awful starting when she hasn't fully caught up yet but she isn't going to catch up until we get a long night and we aren't going to get a long night until I cap so I don't have much choice! Not quite sure how to go about waking her though as she always needs 5mins to moan and wake up a little before we go and get her or she spends an hour screaming :-S I am hoping that I don't have to cap long term and I think she may start to nap between 1.5hours - 2.15 on her own if we can get back to good nights.
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(((hugs))) Stardust I don't like it either but it is exactly the same scenario for us - if I don't wake him its at the expense of his night, and he'll never cap his nap naturally unless he has a long night so its definitely the only option.
When I wake Oliver I just put the hallway light on, or open the curtains (you could do this say 5mins before you wake her & see if it helps to rouse her naturally), or I just gently stroke his cheek or his hand & say Oliver until her rouses. Generally he will take a few mins to come around & then he is totally fine.
We had a better night last night & I woke him at 7am. We are sticking with a 7am WU & a 1pm nap for 1h 45 to see if I can get his bedtime pulled back by that 15mins. That said, he didn't settle for his nap until almost 1.10pm, he was just chatting away up there, so we're not really going to get as early a bedtime as I'd have liked as it'll need to be 7.55pm if I let him sleep his full 1h 45mins. Def no way I'm doing 2hrs again - he won't go to sleep til 8.30 so its just not worth it anymore.
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LO wakes at the slightest noise (usually by screaming) so that's why I was worried about waking her! But I just opened the door between living room and hallway, turned the TV up and started pottering around and she woke herself within 5 mins. Not sure if she'd have woken anyway :-S
Today -
WU 6.30am
Nap (PD 12.25) Sleeping 12.45 - 2.50
BT 7-7.15??
How does that sound?
Edit - LO was tired by around 6pm and pretty inconsolable by 6.15pm. With Daddy's help we held out and PD around 7.05pm, no crying or chatting etc. Hope we haven't pushed her too much today - tonight/tomorrow will tell us!
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SD your EASY looks good. I do the same with waking, I try to open the door. Though sometimes I have to make a bit of noise now ::)
Well we had BT at 7.10 (opps 5 mins early) and a NW (seemed like a bad dream/nightmare) at 1.45 gross. Still sleeping now at 7.10 am so off to wake him :(
THings are so much better than they were, but still not quite right...I hope we are at the tail end of this regression!
Claire - How did your night go ofter the short nap?
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stardust - think you did right there hun or you may have ended up with another short night due to OT from long day but UT at BT. I do still think you may need to very gradually work on shifting her BT out, but for now just keep with your 12.30-2.30 (capped nap) & 7pm BT for a wee while & see what happens. It may take her a while to get past the OT she has built up.
Sara - glad all is feeling a bit better for you.
Night was better thanks - woke him at 7am (11hrs) he'd very definitely have slept in for longer if I'd let him. He had his 1h 45 nap today & went right to sleep at BT so I'm hoping we're back on track now. My plans to bring it all 15mins earlier were completely foiled - it seems we're back at a 1.15 nap & 8pm BT so I'll probably allow him to sleep in til 7.15 tomorrow!
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Thanks Claire. I know you think we should push out BT but I do prefer an earlier day than most. I would much prefer a 7pm BT and 6am WU to an 8pm BT and 7am WU :-S I really don't want to do BT any later than 7pm and would much rather adjust the rest of the day to suit than do an earlier BT. We are normally out of the house by 8.30am to get the dog out before toddlers groups etc. and OH is up around 6.45am latest so I like LO to be up by then too. Plus we always come home for lunch at 12 and I like LO to be down as soon as possible afterwards and then when she wakes we still have the whole afternoon. Can't have it all my own way though ;-) I don't mind the earlier WU as long as LO is going to do at least 11hours at night and wake happy!
LO is really restless and we've had a few unhappy call-outs - hope we're not in for an EW!
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stardust. ok, that's fine. I was only suggesting later BT on the assumption you wanted a 7am WU! Well that, and b/c IME doing under 5hrs A to BT after a 2hr nap at this age will just lead to a short night.
I think just keep trying the 2hr nap & see how she goes - don't forget she will already have accumulated some OT from all the shorter nights & very long mornings, so if she does wake early tomorrow don't assume that it is entirely down to capping the nap. You are capping the nap because her nights are short & so it might take a wee while for her to get caught up on any OT she's accumulated & for her wakeup to get later, so I think you need to give it a shot for a good week or 2 before making a decision as to whether its helping or not.
I'll keep my FX'd for you though!x
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Ah things are going downhill :-(
LO had a good night, very restless up until 10 or 11pm with a few cry outs but once she settled down she was fine and didn't wake until 6.30am which was a good 11.5hours. She was happy on waking so I thought we'd finally gotten it right but by 9am she was awful with tiredness :-( All I've been doing is trying to keep her awake. She's spent the morning yawning, rubbing her eyes, hiding, lying on the floor with her dummy and bedtime teddy and I had to pop out to supermarket and she was falling asleep on the 10 min journey :-( She was too tired to eat a single bite of lunch too so has gone down starving meaning she'll probably wake after an hour! This girl cannot cope with OT at all!
Tried to stick to our 12.30pm nap but wish I hadn't now, think I had completely missed the sleep window as by this time LO was super hyped up and frustrated and screamed at me all through wind-down, climbing off me to play, throwing her bedtime stuff away, arching her back when I picked her up etc. PD at 12.20pm and she was back to absolutely furious OT screaming and standing up and saying no. She isn't screaming now, just rolling around and fighting it but FX'd she settles soon. Not quite sure what I will do with todays nap length, will have a think once I relax a bit and see how I feel.
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hope she settles well hun. I hate to say it but I think that while she continues to have such a short A to BT she will keep waking earlier, meaning too long an A time to nap for her to cope with. Only other thing I can come up with, given that you prefer the earlier WU & BT is to bring the nap earlier to start at 12. Then she can be up 6.30am, nap 12-2 and bed at 7. This gives her 5.5hrs A in the AM and 5hrs in the PM & is the routine we had for a good couple of months with a 2hr nap (albeit 30mins earlier), before we needed to cap it shorter.
We had a decent night from Oliver & woke him at 7.15am after 11h 15 sleep. Put him down for his nap at 1.05pm aiming for 1.15pm asleep & he's still chatting away in bed now at 1.30pm. This has been happening every day this week, so it looks like his AM A time is increasing beyond 6hrs now. So.... looks like I'll either have to limit his night sleep to 11hrs, OR cap his nap shorter to 1.5hrs. We're running out of day to fit it all in now!
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Hmmm. Maybe something else other than tiredness is bothering her? As she woke herself after 1hour55mins max and was still grumpy and tantruming the rest of the afternoon but I didn't catch her rubbing her eyes or yawning once, even before BT, usually the only thing that affects her behaviour like this is OT :-S Guess it could be developmental though as boy does she like to argue with me now. We had a 25minute tantrum because she couldn't take her trike outside as it was heavy rain!!! And a good 15minute tantrum this morning too as we were doing water play and she didn't want it to finish but she was soaked, sticky and cold, this is all new to me!
I put her down at 7 and think she was actually slightly UT - uh oh could be in for EW! But she did go to sleep instantly with a smile and no crying etc.
I don't know what to do with our day now :-( I really really don't want to have her awake any later than 7pm! But then if I'm doing that I really do need to move that nap earlier don't I or we are going to have OT at naptime and UT at bedtime for the forseeable future! And 12pm is such an inconvenient time for a nap as we'd have to be home by 11.30 for lunch and most of our groups are still on then :-S There's not much point in aiming for a WU after 6.30-6.45 as Daddy gets up then and she just won't sleep through it unless we're in one of our luxurious sleep phases! So could I aim for -
6.30 - 7 WU (probably waking when she hears Daddy?)
12.30 - Nap (aim for as close to 5.5 hours A as possible and cap at 2hours)
7.15/7.30 BT (aim for 5 hours A from WU?)
I guess the later BT might not be so bad as once baby is here I can try and get baby into an earlier routine and then get some quality time with LO at her bedtime. Plus 7.30 isn't that late really, it's just because I have awful pregnancy fatigue and I'm in bed by 8 most nights that it seems late!
Hope O's sleep doesn't drop too much, I don't have any advice for you as we haven't got there yet :-(
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stardust - that's exactly the routine we had for quite a while & it worked really well for us. To my mind, that is a better solution than an earlier nap - I was just throwing it out there as an alternative for you lol! I wouldn't change anything just yet though, keep going as you are with the 2hr 12.30pm nap & 7pm BT for a good week or so & see what happens with her WU before deciding if BT needs to go later. That way you are just making 1 change at a time IYSWIM so you will know if its helping or not. If you cut the nap AND push BT & it goes wrong you won't know which is to blame.
x
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Well, BT needs to go later :-( Bugger!! WU at 6am very happy. So around 11hours sleep which isn't exactly UT but I need that WU later or she isn't going to make it until 12.30 and her day is going to get earlier and earlier.
What should I do today? We have a group that finishes at 11.30 so by the time we get home for lunch etc. the earliest I could PD would be 12.15, that 6hours15 A though so we're likely to have a little upset and fight at naptime with OT! Then I was thinking of 2hour15 nap (to CU from long morning) and a 7.30 BT. But if she takes a while to settle at naptime I'm going to have to still wake at 2.30 I think or won't have enough A to BT or do you think it would be okay to leave it at 2hrs15. Saying that, there's a good chance she will wake herself naturally just before the 2hour mark as she has been but maybe not today if she's OT! :-S So "tweaking" day would look like
6am WU
12.15/12.30 - 2.30 Nap (2hrs - 2.15 depending on time taken to fall asleep)
7.30 BT
... which will hopefully give us a 6.30-7 WU tomorrow meaning I can stick to 12.30 - 2.30 nap and 7.30 BT and this can be our new routine? Sound about right?
I can't believe this is the end of my LOs lovely long naps. Why why why did I ever complain :-D
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Oh how turning 18months throws things eh?!!! I'm too late to help you with today sorry hun - what did you do in the end? FWIW I'd probably have pushed O as close as possible to his usual naptime but keep an eye on him for him getting 'wired' & PD at the first sign of that. I think the longer nap & the 5hrs A may work ok today but be prepared for a wee bit of OT as thats a long day for her.
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Well, she fell asleep in the car from 10am - 10.45am as was absolutely shattered :-( From 9am she was awful again!
Haven't been able to get her to go down again and don't think I will manage a nap at all. So EBT just after 6pm I think, hopefully she pulls 12 hours for me but I just don't know!
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Hugs SD
We too had a shorter night, just 11 hrs. I think nap is going o have to be capped at 1hr45... But will give this routine a few more days first.
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I'll keep my FX'd for you!
Sara - how are things with Z? All settled now? Just seen your news on FB!!x
Things are ok for us now I think. He slept til 7.15 (I woke him) & went down ok today at 1.15, up 3pm & STS at 8pm phew!
ETA: posted at same time hun. def try a few more days. 11hrs at night is ok yk, I probably wouldn't cap unless night is consistently shorter than that eg 10-10.5hrs. And that said, you might find (like I did) that a later nap will help, so perhaps push it back a touch more.
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Sara - did not see your pregnancy ticker before!!! Congratulations, are you as crazy as me :-D
Kept things very low key until BT routine, asleep for 6.25pm. FX'd she pulls 12hours! She has had a few call outs and restlessness but usually settles down and I don't hear her throughout the night. Was hoping to go into town tomorrow (hospital bag shopping!) but looks like we will have to stay close to home to get back to nap time routine.
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Thanks SD &and Claire :) Yea I'm abit mad,and a bit worried..2 boys may just be too much eeek.
Things are good Claire, considering we're cutting teeth ATM. Mind the pain meds are being used a bit! I'm kind of following Zs cues a little With these teeth....I had to PD for nap 15 mins early but he was telling me he was ready!
Good luck tonight SD
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Ugh, teeth, hopefully he will have finished by the time new baby comes along!
Well, 5.40am WU so that was around 11hours10mins night sleep. She's been quite happy so don't think we are going to get much longer than 11hours for the forseeable future. Haven't gone into town as I just know she'll fall asleep in the car (30mins journey) so will go after naptime today. Going to stick as close to usual naptime of 12.30, maybe 15mins earlier if she's exhausted! And cap at 2 hours and do BT by 7.30.
You know what girls, I have a sneaking suspicion we are going to have to cap at less than 2 hours at some point soon :-( She just doesn't seem to miss the sleep like she used to!!!
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SD - this is just what happened to us at the 18 month mark & I was sure we'd have to start capping pretty quickly. I have to say the later nap has really helped us hang onto the longer nap though! So do give that a try first! We're just getting to the point of cutting back a wee bit more I think but still hanging onto that 1h 45 for as long as possible lol!
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Well, she was okay and in a good mood until 11am then really tired, she fell asleep on the sofa at 12.05 so was put to bed! Woke after 2hours and she was pretty inconsolable for a little while then a bit of a grump but we went out for the afternoon to distract her. Then she seemed to get over the tiredness by around 6pm and become quite "wired" so we ended up doing BT at 7.20 with 5mins of OT screaming. I hope we can get rid of this OT soon, it's no fun and she switches between irritated and wound up then cuddly and tired. Just wish we could get into a consistent little routine so she can start adjusting and get a little happier and more predictable.
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Wow - either this thread has just got really chatty or I'm just getting busy/stuck with late BTs but I'm struggling to keep up with you :)
Thanks for all your advice, I'm also thinking we need to eek that nap a little later, only he's never been good with A time stretches so I'm trying to take it slow... Tried to push a little closer to 1pm yesterday and today, but yesterday he woke after ~1h (resettled quickly with a little help) and he did the same today but never quite made it back to sleep. So just got him up at 2:30 and tried for 7:30 BT but he didn't get to sleep until just after 8pm. Btw that was with ~11h night (first time in ages!) and I didn't wake up until 7:23am and he was quietly babbling then so guessing he'd only just woken up! I still can't help wondering whether there's just a fundamental limit on how quickly he can get to sleep at BT - used to be 5-10mins max but now 30mins is great and it's often longer... Has anyone else found that with the 18mo regression? Looking into head massage on the spirited babies thread (yes I know he's a toddler but I'm still on there at the mo...), as he's just finding it so difficult to relax and stay calm at BT, however tired he is.
Ok general (((hugs))) to everyone else who's struggling, from my quick skim through it looks as if you're all getting good advice already and I'm so lost I don't have anything else to add!
Oh just one more question - because of these BT battles, I've been capping at 2:30pm whatever happens, but I guess once the nap does get to 1pm, I should let him sleep a little later to keep it at 1h 45mins? Haven't had the chance to do that yet as he's done an OT shorter nap anyway, but I'll need to decide what to do so I can tell his childminder on Mon... Just scared that if he ends up napping later, BT will get even later...
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(((hugs))) Trimbler - it is tough isn't it? I also had that fear that if the nap went later then BT would also get much later, & so I started to cap short, but in actual fact the longer morning means that he is much more tired & ready for bed at bedtime. Now Oliver is napping at 1.15pm, I let him sleep 1h 45 & wake him at 3pm. I wake at 3pm regardless of when he goes to sleep for his nap & then his BT is 8pm, so he's doing 6hrs A / 1h 45 nap / 5hrs A. He is now going straight to sleep at bedtime & we are getting a pretty consistent 11h 15 night. Up at 7.15am. I do wake him every morning though or he would sleep longer. It doesn't sit well with me, but I find if I do let him sleep in the morning then he's not ready for his nap & I end up guessing when to put him down & guessing how long to let him nap for & we get all in a mess! So its better this way!
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Ahhh. Well and truly OT. I'm feeling discouraged and not sure what to do for the best :-(
LO woke at 5.30am so only 10hours sleep. She is very OT this morning and has big dark circles under her eyes. And behaviour is terrible as it has been the past week, tantrums, screaming and food refusal already as we always get with OT :-( I can't leave the house after 9-10am as she falls asleep and we are getting OT screaming at most PDs or LO is falling asleep in our arms before we can PD.
I'm not sure how to fix this, each day LO is getting more tired, more OT, more unhappy and getting less sleep too. Today will need to be a catch up day but TBH I doubt she will even catch up any today as the less sleep I am putting her down for the less she is taking on her own - it's like the less I put her down for the less she seems to need/miss when underneath she is OT and unhappy.
I want my bouncy happy little girl back :-(
I think I am just going to wait for major tired signs this morning, any eye rubbing etc. and fill her up with a bottle of milk and get her down ASAP and hope she takes a good 3hours to catch up. If this works I can start again tomorrow hopefully.
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Hugs, FWIW Z went through a stage just like this a month ago and it was teething and 18 mth madness really. I guess for us we were still having ok sleep so I knew it wasn't OT but I wouldn't rule out teeth, or just a GS/developmental jump as part to blame ;)
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AAAAHHHHH.
We have something going on here other than OT.
Not illness, she's definitely not poorly. Maybe teething :-S Bottom canines are almost fully up but the top are still only just poking through so don't know if they could still be causing pain. Maybe something developmental. She is so fiery just now and demanding and just awful. Her behaviour is absolutely ridiculous if she doesn't get her own way, I think I have been very soft and letting it carry on with feeling guilty over having a new baby. Both my phone and the laptop have been broken by LO this week. It has to stop! That's for another thread though whenever I have the time!
Yesterday
5.40am WU
12.00 - 1.55 Nap (woke self)
7.05ish Bed
NWs around midnight and 2.30 (settled herself within mins) and then fully awake crying at 5am on the dot. Went in with a cuddle, milk, teething powders and meds just incase but she seemed okay - just screaming once I put her down as wanting to get up! Decided this can't carry on so put her back down and tucked her in and started WI/WO. Only actually had to go in a few times but she wasn't back asleep until 5.45ish. Up for the day at 6.30am.
Still in an awful awful mood, I really hope this ends soon!!
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wow so yesterday my dd did not take a nap! AT ALL!!!!! devastating and praying this is not a sign of things to come...she has been doing really well for the most part...aside from a day here and there where she shortens her nap or wakes earlier than usual in the a.m....she went down late the other night and woke about 3 hrs later...first nw in 8 mos! def OT...totally my fault for getting her down late..she woke again that night but self soothed back to sleep w/o my help...then 2 days later she slept 8-8:30...a good 30-60 mins later than usual in the a.m....I did reg nap time figuring it was catch up from the other day (late pd and nw) but she just never went to sleep....so that night (last night) i pd early and she was asleep at 7 instead of her usual 8ish...she slept til 8:20 this morning..no idea where to go from here in fear we get another UT pd leading to NO nap again...should I pd for nap 30 mins later or even just 15 mins later to work with the later morning wu? I am just not sure :/ she is too young to give up naps and like I said normally she naps with no issues..right to sleep and gives a good 2 hrs...so this can't be it...I'm thinking an UT bad timing nap...a mistake I dont' want to make twice!
ETA- so i went with a 15 min delay on the nap and she went right out..hoping for a good one and getting back on track! :)
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lily - i don't think your LO is ready to drop the nap. my LO can sometimes tack on after a no nap day and take a super long night but it's not a long term solution! i guess i am too late now but what did you do in the end? i would be tempted to PD later to work with the later WU but I would also cap the night so she is ready for bed.
well, girls today i had a much better day. after last night she was in a horrible mood but we went swimming and out in the sunshine and i did usual PD at 12.30pm. i accidentally let LO sleep 2hours15mins as was sleeping myself but i'm glad i did now as she woke by herself in a fantastic mood and has been a little star all afternoon, so happy, eaten great and not a single whinge or clinginess! I have no idea what has been up with her. BT at 7.25pm with no fuss, she could have been ever so slightly UT at BT from the longer nap, shorter A but at least we won't have a 5am EW from OT! I'll be very happy if we make 6am tomorrow but just wish we could get a consistent WU time so that I can work towards a consistent nap and BT.
sorry for no punctuation or rubbish spelling, i'm on my phone and it takes forever!
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If you cut the nap AND push BT & it goes wrong you won't know which is to blame.
Agreed! solid advice! good luck!
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lily - i don't think your LO is ready to drop the nap. my LO can sometimes tack on after a no nap day and take a super long night but it's not a long term solution! i guess i am too late now but what did you do in the end? i would be tempted to PD later to work with the later WU but I would also cap the night so she is ready for bed.
No she is def not ready to drop the nap, but admittedly still scary when it happens...I am pushing for this nap for as long as I can. I know she still NEEDS it. yes I put down later only by 15 mins and worked out great!
Glad you had a better day...sounds good. sometimes it just takes one good day to bring a slew of them..hopefully you get the later wu and have a starting point...good luck!
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lily - i don't think your LO is ready to drop the nap. my LO can sometimes tack on after a no nap day and take a super long night but it's not a long term solution!
I agree, and understand your pain :P
I have a friend whose LO is refusing to nap ::) Turns out its mostly canines causing havoc along with this regression. SHe said to me 'he slept 13 hours after no nap but was shattered by 3pm, do you think I should just drop his nap' - NO, 2 days later....this kid was a mess. so tired he was napping at 9am after a 7am WU. They confuse us but one thing I am learning with Z is consistency usually wins over all, a 'little' tweaking will tell you which direction to move in, but I guess when you think of it in that 1.5/2hrs to nothing is a big jump for a small kid KWIM?
SO we are getting 1 good day/night and one shorter day/night. I think its partially teeth and poss UT/OT days as a result but only a touch if that makes sense. Any of you been through this.
ie
Night 1
BT 7
WU 7 (yus)
Night 2
BT 7
NW 10.30-10.50
EW 5.50 - drifts in and out and damanding to get up at 6.30
Nap is 12.30 for 2 hrs but I suspect its more like 1hr45/50 really once he is asleep.
These EW mornings are tough to get him to 12.30 so sometimes I PD at 12.15 and BT 15 mins earlier if needed.
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Hi ladies
I'm just wondering, what IS the 18 month sleep regression?
Is it so common that just about every LO goes through it and what are the signs? Sorry if there is a FAQ somewhere that I've missed, can't see one.
My DS isn't 18 months yet but it would be cool to know what to expect in the next couple of months.
And big hugs to all of you coping with sleep problems xx
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They confuse us but one thing I am learning with Z is consistency usually wins over all, a 'little' tweaking will tell you which direction to move in, but I guess when you think of it in that 1.5/2hrs to nothing is a big jump for a small kid KWIM?
I totally agree...even though they aren't entirely consistent themselves sometimes they thrive on consistency...I find the same works for us as well.
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Creations...I wondered this too! I 'think' it isnt so much a 'regression' as it is more a combination of things that caused increased # of NW, or nap/BT refusals and EW. These 'things' are teething (discomfort) a huge change in development ie language explosions, abilities etc and learning that they are their own person which results in SA in a lot of LOs. Some also have a change in sleep needs so this can get masked (as the others can mask each other) so it becomes hard to 'know' what your LO needs and why they are behaving the way they are.
ie for us we had NW - SA related, some nightmares/NT and teething. After a few of each I realised the differences between each and this made the NW easier to handle. ie if it was pain, meds, cuddles and back to bed. If SA/nightmare cuddes and reassurance then back to bed. SA same thing, but a little bit of WI/WO.
The reason consistancy is recommended 'I think' is because if you make too many changes LO can get confused, pick up bad habits and/or get OT or in an UT/OT loop etc. A lot of articles I have read on this suggest 'riding it out' However, in doing so you can end up having to re sleep train.
sigh...did any of that make ANY sense ???
FWIW we got to the point of 1 NW every night. Before that it was 1 in every 3 or so. Now we are back to only 1 in every 2-3 and they are 99% teething related. NT/SA all seems to have come right for now. x
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Thanks Sara.
From what you've described I think DS has already hit the 'regression' then despite not being 18 months yet!
I'm currently changing his nap and BT times - or rather HE has changed them and I am trying to catch up and work out how to help him tweak them into something more appropriate for us both :)
But I can see that a lot of his disturbance is language development, independence and skills development, teething...just like you describe. I've also noticed a massive appetite increase, and this in turn has effected BMs which then delay nap or BT. I'm useless with knowing when growth spurts but from the way he's eating I assume there is one around 16/17 months.
Thanks again for filling me in. xx
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Creations - I think Sara's expained it really well. Just one thing I'd add..
The reason consistancy is recommended 'I think' is because if you make too many changes LO can get confused, pick up bad habits and/or get OT or in an UT/OT loop etc. A lot of articles I have read on this suggest 'riding it out' However, in doing so you can end up having to re sleep train.
We ended up having to re-train because we were staying with L at BT until asleep and then co-sleeping after NW. However, we found this was the best way for us as a family to get through it. L had lots of SA and really needed the reassurance at that stage and we all got more sleep. Once she was ready for it, re-training too about a week or less in the end. I think you just have to see how it goes, judge what's best for your family and don't feel too bad about using any 'bad' habits - you can always retrain.
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Thanks for that Catherine.
We don't have huge SA at the moment, a little when he is in teething pain or tired from waking too early in the morning but we've had phases in the past that have been worse so I'm not considering it as a 'problem' (not yet!).
Obviously knowing how other people have coped is useful, but I can't ever imagine co-sleeping. DS has always refused to sleep in arms and won't even lay in or on my bed. The only time he did was the two nights prior to being admitted to hospital. He was SO poorly he chose to sleep with me. So, yes, I can't imagine it but then I've never had an 18 month old before so I am open to anything coming my way.
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Obviously knowing how other people have coped is useful, but I can't ever imagine co-sleeping. DS has always refused to sleep in arms and won't even lay in or on my bed.
This was EXACTLY L too. LOL. She would NEVER fall asleep in my arms as a NB (or older) and would NEVER sleep in our bed. Up until about 17 months (I think) I could never ever imagine us co-sleeping. I have no idea why/how though, but at some point in the last few months we found that she would sleep in our bed. Still no chance of her falling asleep in our arms/lap though!
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Agree Sara explained that well.
a huge change in development ie language explosions, abilities etc and learning that they are their own person which results in SA in a lot of LOs.
we found this to be the biggest factor of all. DS has had a HUGE language explosion & is now talking in full sentences of 6-7 words & is saying words he's never ever said before & saying them in full. It is truly amazing but I think his little brain must be on overdrive! I think this is part of the reason they suddenly start to take ages to settle to sleep at bedtime, b/c their minds are whirring with all the new information. The other thing we found, is that DS certainly learnt he was his own person - he wanted to assert his independence & so along with that came verbal refusal of nap & bedtime 'no, Ollie playing' etc & oh the tantrums if we said no! We never suffered much with SA at sleep times or in the night - ours was more during the day e.g. when I needed to leave the room he would scream & sob & be absolutely distraught.
It is hard to know how much of it is developmental & how much of it is down to changing sleep needs. Like Sara said, one can mask the other. But I certainly found it to be a combination of both, and after 2 months of difficult naps/BT's & EWing, pushing the nap later has been the one thing that's got us back on track & things have settled nicely (for now!). So if all else fails, hang onto the thought that it will all suddenly settle back down within the next month or so.xxx
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Welcome to the craziness, creations!
Well, after an unpromising start to the 1pm nap, on Sunday he woke at a reasonable time (can't quite remember when) and things seemed better for a while:
7:15 got up
1pm nap
2.45pm I woke from nap
8pm PD, 8.15ish asleep
Then uncharacteristic NW 1:30-2:30ish (putting it down to teething), then slept until...
Monday:
7am woke, not exactly happy, prob still tired after the NW
7:15 got up
1pm nap
2:45pm woke from nap (childminder)
8pm PD and straight to sleep!!!!!
today:
6:30 woke (urgh), again not so happy, don't think it was enough sleep
7:15 got up
1pm nap (short cry out around 2ish)
2:30ish woke and couldn't get back to sleep so got him up 2:45
7:50 PD (bit earlier as I didn't want OT, don't think he was at that time but...)
8:45 - DH has just gone in to reassure, he's still not asleep and definitely OT now :( :( :(
So I guess we just have to stick with this 1pm nap until he settles into it before we really know where we are. Then of course we have canines flaring up again and a sudden change in weather (has been cold and wet for weeks, today suddenly 26C - the joys of British weather. no wonder we're always talking about it!) so who knows what's to blame?
Sara, I'm sure I did read someone else's post about getting alternate long/short nights, but can't remember who or where, sorry! We tend to get one good night and at least a couple of weeks of short nights before the next freak/fluke good one!
Stardust, hope you see some improvement in DD's mood and sleep soon, I'm sure you need all the rest you can get!
Claire - does that mean you've reached some consistency now? Thanks for the reminder not to try and push BT back together with the nap, makes sense to keep it at the same time, and I really don't want that time to be after 8pm. Looks like we're aiming for something similar to you at the mo, ie our day on Monday above, so with the nap 15mins earlier than yours. But I'm guessing that was a big fluke! [just read your last post as I was about to post this - have to say I'm impressed with O's language! We're finally getting a few attempts at single words now, which is really exciting but I guess they all just do it in their own time :)]
Thanks everyone for posting your woes/advice on here, helps me feel less alone in this and it's kind of reassuring to know that other LOs are doing similar things and that I'm not the only mum who thinks about it way too much :)
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Creations, there is a developmental leap around 16 months...you may have hit that....basically I found they have developmental blimps all through the second year.... ::)
Z wont have a bar of my bed either. One time I tried climbing in his cot and I swear he thought i was bonkers!
I agree Catherine, we also just found ourselves giving in a bit because really, he wasnt doing it to be a PITA, we could tell each NW was a real reason....we havent had to sleep train ... but we are not out of the woods yet....;)
Claire - I wanted to ask you about pushing that nap. We have had a few EW, but luckily Z is going back to sleep. It is a sign of bad things to come though I think (unless its teething or illness related) - But to be prepared was O EW and if so were you being strong with his nap time, then pushing it, or going by A times then gradually pushing back as his WU got later?
trimbler - posted at the same time :-* Good luck sticking with the 1pm nap...I think we may be heading there
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Good question, Sara, will be interested in that too! We're keeping 'up' time and 'down for nap' times pretty consistent, so that the 'A' time of actually being out of his cot and doing stuff is the same (5.45h in the morning at the mo) but he may be awake for longer than this. We're just trying to stick with the routine as much as possible, and I know that despite obviously seeing some OT and still having BT battles, this approach isn't affecting him nearly as much as it would have done ~15-16mo. I wouldn't have believed that at first, but it actually does seem 'safe' for us to do it this way now, which is a relief! We've been pushing the nap back by 15mins each time, but it does take him at least a couple of weeks to settle with the new time, by which I mean to nap well fairly consistently and to be consistent enough in his sleep patterns to have a reasonable guess at what to try next! Still hasn't solved BT issues but Claire's giving me hope that it might possibly all work out in the end :)
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trimbler - yes we seem to be more or less settled on:
Up: 7.15
Nap: 1.15-3pm
BT: 8pm straight to sleep & STTN
Sara - when we got the EW - there was no going back to sleep! When we had the 12.30pm 2hr nap & 7.30pm BT, he started taking until 8pm to fall asleep & would then wake happy the next day at 6am. Then after 2-3 days of this he'd be overtired b/c his days too long/nights too short, we'd get a long night & then it started all over again. We were in a right old mess for a while. As you know I started capping, which did yield some results for a while, then I decided he seemed OT so on hols I relaxed & let him nap for longer again. TBH I don't actually know how we got to the 1.15pm nap as I can't really say I've held strong & stuck at his set naptime like glue & say pushed it on 15mins/week or anything like that lol! I suppose I had it in my mind that he needed his nap pushing later to combat the EW so I tried to stay as close to 1pm naptime as possible, but if we got a really early start I'd definitely do earlier nap & earlier BT to stop him getting too OT.
Hope things improve for everyone soon. Remember the mantra 'its just a phase & it shall pass'.xx
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It is truly amazing but I think his little brain must be on overdrive! I think this is part of the reason they suddenly start to take ages to settle to sleep at bedtime
This is clearly the case with DS. He gets into the BT routine and I can see him getting sleepy as he knows what's coming and then all of a sudden his brain goes 100mph and he is coming out with all sorts of words and sounds and getting really physical with his bed refusal.
We've had so many EWs now that yesterday he dropped off to sleep on the way home from group, only 11.30am. Sara I remembered what you suggested last time we had car nap problems and gave him an oat cake to eat (I couldn't back then but can now, new car seat that sits upright now he is finally big enough for it!) on the way home. He ate it, I passed another when I was stopped at traffic lights, he ate that too and he still managed to fall asleep. It's only a 5 min drive. Well it resulted in the first 7.30 BT in a whole week. He went down a dream. But up at 4am, v quick resettle, then up for the day at 5am :(
For a whole week he has refused to sleep until 7.50 or 7.55pm. I think I should take this as his new BT but didn't really want to move nap and BT at the same time. Funnily enough the late BT started the same day that he chose to start using the potty again after a full 6 weeks of potty refusal. It can't be a coincidence, it's a developmental leap.
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Hello ladies. I have no laptop as delightful LO poured a bottle of bubbles over it. So just a very quick update on my phone. Will read thread another time. LO is very tired and grumpy and was not settling with OT. So we have gone back to uncapped nap and 7pmish BT. This gave us a 12hour night last night and 11hours the night before. Not sure how long this will work but LO is still tired and grumpy so
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Putting things onhold for a while. Ba k soon. Excuse any typos - my phone re kons it can spell better than me!!!
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We've been pushing the nap back by 15mins each time, but it does take him at least a couple of weeks to settle with the new time, by which I mean to nap well fairly consistently and to be consistent enough in his sleep patterns to have a reasonable guess at what to try next!
same here..its taking us a while for everything to be the way it was with a consistant WU (ie 6.45-7am) ATM we are a bit all over the place with WU ::)
We had our first day of not really wanting to nap. Z still accepted it, and went in his cot, but he was full of beans and wanted to play. He shook his head when I asked him to put his arm out for his sleep sack - which usually he does on his own! I suspect we are heading to either a later nap than 12.30 OR a slightly shorter nap :-\ I dont want our day to get any greater than 13hrs (its usually 12.5) but I also want that 2hr nap...I am greedy!
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Creations - there's definitely something developmental going on at 16mo! I'm not sure what the rest of your day is like, but are you trying for 7:30pm BT/PD? I know we went through a period where we had 7:30pm PD but M wasn't getting to sleep until close to 8pm. Then I realised he was a bit UT at BT and then OT by the time he fell asleep, which caused more EWs. Either that, or he was more rested from having been in his cot a bit earlier than he really needed, and we got happy EWs. Not sure if this will work for you, but on days where he'd had a good nap, we started pushing BT to 7:45pm and that just seemed to be what he needed - started getting to sleep much more quickly and doing good nights again... for a couple of weeks before the next thing hit ;)
Stardust - (((hugs))) you do seem to be having a rough time and you must be extra tired too. Sounds like you're doing the right thing if she's getting more sleep now, I'd keep going as you are but keep a careful eye for the first signs of the OT going. I know sometimes when we've compensated for OT we've carried on letting DS sleep longer for just a little too long and then we'd get a happy, full of beans EW because he'd suddenly caught up! Easier to realise that in retrospect, of course :)
I dont want our day to get any greater than 13hrs (its usually 12.5) but I also want that 2hr nap...I am greedy!
I know what you mean! But I'm trying to lower my expectations now as I really can't believe that M can do the 13h 'recommended/average' daily sleep for toddlers...
Remember the mantra 'its just a phase & it shall pass'.xx
Thanks, Claire - will keep trying to remind myself of this! So, another month to go...? Well done on getting through :)
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Quote from: ZacsMumme on Yesterday at 21:21:29
I dont want our day to get any greater than 13hrs (its usually 12.5) but I also want that 2hr nap...I am greedy!
I know what you mean! But I'm trying to lower my expectations now as I really can't believe that M can do the 13h 'recommended/average' daily sleep for toddlers...
The thing is, since Z has been on 1 nap he usually does 13-13.5hrs in a 24hr period when well and not in a developmental leap/teething or sick...so really he isn't LSN as I used to think, he was early to transition from 3-2 and 2-1 naps etc but really needs the avge amount of sleep ::)
Well we had a weird night. Z has started talking to his stuffed animals (he has a wee Cat and a cow in his cot) at night! I head him giggling at 4.30 and 5.45am!!!! Went back to sleep at both on his own then up at 7am.Do I need to be worried about UT or does this sound developmental? He also talked to them this morning on WU rather than wanting out when I came in...he was telling me all about them :P
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and Trimbler - love your avatar!
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I'm not sure what the rest of your day is like, but are you trying for 7:30pm BT/PD?
Yes we did well for a while on 12.30 nap and 7pm BT. Then 7.30 BT because of refusal. But now he's refusing up to 7.50 or 7.55 for a while week (minus 1 night) so I have been planning on moving BT so that he will go straight down at that time rather than 20 mins of fighting which drains me and doesn't seem all that pleasant for him either. I keep putting off changing it because he looks so tired in the evening that every day I am sure he is going to go to sleep at 7.30, but he doesn't so it's really time to change it. I'm going to try 7.45 as he may go down 5 or 10 min earlier than when he has all that fighting.
TBH he's totally totally fine (apart from waking screaming with the EW). He isn't struggling to get through the day or getting grumpy or anything, the fixed naps and BT are all (well mostly) to accommodate ME! I don't like 5am morning WU so will tweak until we get something better.
He woke at 4am again this morning but self settled. Yesterday when this happened he was up for the day at 5am. Today I went in at 4.15 and did a W2S and it got him past 5am :) A 6.10am cooing wake up with lovely chatter and smiles :)
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Creations we had the same thing at 16 months and I thought UT pushed and it became OT...a few EBT and 'time' fixed this. In hindsight I think it was a WW ::)
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Thanks Sara. I don't follow the WWs (bad mummy!) but even without working out the dates I would swear he's just had one. This past week has been a marked increase in language, independence, tantrums, imaginative play, all sorts of things. It was 10 days prior to this that he started getting tricky at BT and eventually I moved BT from 7 to 7.30 to accommodate but for the last week he's refused 7.30 too.
So, like you I thought UT for BT but maybe I was wrong? I purposely aimed for 7.45 tonight and he still messed around until 7.55. Maybe I'm totally out though, I've now got a hunch to go back to 7pm BT.
I hate BT fighting but today was quite funny. He was doing pretend sneezes and was really pleased with himself, I had to work hard not to laugh and join in his party!
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Have a read of my thread at this time and see if you think it sounds the same or not...;)
It's long because I kept going back to the same thing so maybe a skim ;) basically it ended with slightly later nap, capped at 2 hrs then BT 5 hrs later http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=224631.0
Def sounds like a WW :) yay for development...boo for sleep
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Thank you Sara. I actually only got as far as page 2 and some recognition bells went off. It's stuff I've already thought over and over but I push those thoughts away because I think I must be mad.
Anyway - it's what Sammysmammy said about nap capping. Clairebear suggested nap capping to me and I decided I to take her advice and not let him go over 2hrs even though I've never been into capping his naps. What sammysmammy said on your thread about the nap getting shorter and shorter so that when he's ready to drop it it's only a CN, this makes total sense and I feel more comfortable about capping his nap now. The other thing that occurred to me though is that DS was getting a great 11.5 or even 12hr+ night after a 1.5hr nap. It seems like madness because at this age he should need more than 1.5hrs nap. Of course I was constantly worried his nap wasn't as long as it was supposed to be but felt reassured by his night sleep.
Then throw in cutting a few teeth, a vomiting bug, a 2hr nap a 10hr night, another 2hr nap, another 10hr night...then refusing nap because he needed a poo, OT for the nap, long nap, UT for bed, short night...and before you know it we are on 9hrs a night and falling asleep on the way to toddler group at 9.20am.
I thought I needed to make his nap a little later...oh it doesn't matter what I thought...
What I think NOW is that I need to go back to the 12.30 nap (already done today) and 7pm BT and shorten his nap. Most times now he can't get through the whole nap alone and wakes screaming and I dash to sooth and resettle. It's like de ja vu when he moved to one nap I kept resettling and resettling his nap convinced he needed longer when all he needed was to get up and get on with the day (then EBT, 12 hr or 13 hr night and late WU). To me waking screaming during a nap indicates OT but this must be the third or fourth time I've fallen into doing this with DS rather than just getting him up.
Anyway, I'm waffling, I'll stop. You've helped me to figure out what to try. Thank you xx
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Hey girls..bad things are happening over here :/
I just want to cry...my dd went through a little blip a while back where she would take a long time to fall asleep at nap time and even bed time at points ok 18 month regression..got it....we got back on track and had a lovely schedule...she is 21 months old now
wu 8ish a.m
naptime 1-3/3:30
bt 8 pm
now she still goes to bed at 8pm
but gets up more around 7:15-7:20 most mornings (though I still see 8 here and there)
nap times 1-3/3:30 EXCEPT in the last week she didn't nap 2x at all..just played for an hour 1/2- 2hrs
today she was playing for nearly an hour but I think she FINALLY just fell asleep
I realize 2 x is nothing to get worked up over but I am just afraid to let it become more regular you know? just looking for anyone who could tell me maybe why she is doing this and if there is anything I can do to change it?
the last two times I've always kind of been afraid to go in and intervene at all but eventually i did go in and give her a bottle which we dropped forever ago but it makes her sleepy USUALLY and I thought it do the trick but it didn't...so today I kept going in and laying her back down and saying sleep, and night night...she'd get right back up but I think finally after an hour of this she is asleep..whew
I'm just at a loss as to what causes it some times but most times the schedule works just fine and we get GREAT sleep...
so now it's 2pm no idea what time she'll wake but even if it's the usual 3ish I'll take it over nothing but still...what's going on? any thoughts?
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hiya melissa. Have you done a thread about this ??? as I don't think this is 18month regression stuff anymore. TBH hun, I think she is UT. She's only been doing a 5hr A time before her nap & this is really short for her age now. I think this is why you are a) getting the resistance & she's not falling asleep (b/c she simply isn't tired enough to) or b) if she does nap, then it is likely this is why you get the bedtime resistance, because with a short AM A time followed by a long nap, she will still be UT at BT.
Oliver is now doing 6hrs A time in the AM before his nap, and napping for 1h 45mins (capped), with a 5hr A time to bed. He is starting to get UT with this & we are also getting some earlier WU's so I'm on the verge of capping at 1.5hrs. I've had to accept that at this age I'm simply not going to get a 12hr night plus a 2-2.5hr nap anymore & I think its likely this is what's happening with A too - her sleep needs are reducing as she nears her 2nd birthday.
I wonder if you try extending that AM A time a bit whether she would take the nap more readily yk? Perhaps shoot for more like 5.5 or 6hrs A. Of course, if you do this you will be unlikely to be able to keep the long 2-2.5hr nap as she probably won't be tired enough for bed. So you may need to start capping the nap. Or, if you are happy for her to keep going to bed at 8pm & wake at 7/7.15am (which is still a great night & exactly what Oliver is doing right now ;)) then I would probably wake her in the AM if she doesn't wake herself, offer the nap at 1/1.15 & get her up by 3pm at the latest, keep bedtime at 8pm so she isn't UT at bedtime. You might find she will manage this just fine & keep on napping.
Did the no-nap days happen on days she woke at 8am, or did they happen on days she woke at 7.15am?
I think all you can do is keep offering the nap & if she still doesn't go down then you offer an early bedtime & accept this may be the very start of her 1-0 i.e. dropping the nap. This can take a really long time so try not to worry! Also I do seem to remember reading lots of threads from folks with LO's approaching age 2 who say they suddenly get nap refusal & worry its the end of the nap but then after a couple of weeks they suddenly start napping again so it may just be a passing phase.
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ugh - I think we are in the 18 month regression :( She had a cold last week and now that she is better, sleep is not getting any better!
This was us:
Wake 620am
Nap 1230-230pm capped
BT 730pm and STTN
Now we are stuck here:
Wake 520/530am (ACK!)
Nap 12-2/230pm - I let her have a touch longer as her nights are shorter now
BT 7/730pm
We simply cannot get out of this loop yet she really isn't showing any signs that she would prefer more sleep... We have even had a few days of ruined naps (milk trial failure - tummy pains woke her)... yesterday she was up at 540am, napped 1230-130pm, refused any CN.. was asleep at 658pm. I expected that she would tack on a bit as she generally does, but nope, singing with the birds at 525am Happy as Larry. She was fine all morning, not cranky at all... down for a nap at noon easily in hopes of catching her up.
Please tell me this will end. Tired Momma!
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(((hugs))) Kara. Yes it will end but I'll not lie its a rough old ride getting through it! We had almost 2 months of on/off EW & I started nap capping here & there (which is very difficult when they have erratic WU's!) & then it suddenly stopped & settled down. What we have now found, is that he is faring much better with a later nap at 1pm (6hrs A). He is still having a longer nap of 1h 45. We did have to push BT back a wee bit though (to 8pm), keeping him at 5hrs A in order for him to be tired enough to go to sleep. He has been waking at 7.15am (until 3 days ago & we now need to cap the nap again!). It seems that the longer morning a) breaks the early waking cycle & b) makes him more tired at bedtime, even though his A time to BT is still only 5hrs, so the BT antics & EW were gone.
So....my advice to you would be: if you can, ride it out. Try & keep her nap capped at 2hrs or I think you will encourage the cycle to continue. And possibly consider pushing the nap a wee bit later towards a 1pm start (maybe 15mins at a time)
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Hugs Kara, agree with Claire. Do your best to be consistent. We are back to our pre regression routine! Still have bad days but they tend to be obviously teeth, not SA, developmental and EW/nap refusals etc. During the regression our nap went back by 15 mins and luckily we only had NW, no Refusals or EW so with these we just APOPed and WI/WO through them.
I would also keep her nap capped at 2 hrs, maybe 2hrs15 at the max if you really feel bad waking her. 2 hrs is a solid nap, and it will help prevent the EW getting out of control :-*
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Well, I let my momma heart take over today and let her have a mega nap to catch up... she woke after 3 hrs 10 mins but oh man, did she really need it. She was in such a far better mood than she has been for a week or more! And, it did let me push BT to 8pm... she is having a bit of a time settling to sleep though.. no sounds, just faffing about up there intermixed with stretches of quiet time... it's been about 20 mins now and I think she is finally settled to sleep!
Now, if only this helps push our wake up later tomorrow... then I can start to push her nap a bit later!
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So, the big plan of pushing BT to 8pm after that monster nap backfired as I had expected :( She was restless until 830pm and was up at 530am. Ugh.
It's not getting any better so I am really not sure where to start? I can't get a later WU to start pushing her nap! She napped 12-215pm and woke on her own yesterday... but she was up at 530am for the day. She was happy as larry until BT. She went down easily at 730 but was up at 510am today! GROSS! Clearly is OT now.
I am totally known as the harda$$ with naps but I just could not push her today... she was shattered all morning... begged for ba-ba and ni-night while banging on her baby gate at the bottom of the stairs (her room is upstairs) at 950am. I took one look at her and obliged her request - her eyes were totally red-rimmed! Pink little eyebrows too!
I think we are just gonna have to wing it to get this OT under control...
Part of me thinks she is chilly in the early morning and it wakes her up.. but it's sooo hot at bedtime that a sleeper is almost too much, let alone a blanket/sleepsack. She doesn't understand blankets either as she has never really had one - just a sleepsack! UGh.
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If you suspect her being chilly in the early morning maybe do the sleep sack but put an oscillating fan on on low at BT to keep her cool but it off when you go to bed so she isn't chilly in the a.m.?
Sorry to hear you're having a tough time. My little girl slept 8-8:30 and refused a nap today. 3rd nap refusal in a little over a week. Her WU times were different for all 3 so I have no idea what's going on. I hope things get better
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If you suspect her being chilly in the early morning maybe do the sleep sack but put an oscillating fan on on low at BT to keep her cool but poo* it off when you go to bed so she isn't chilly in the a.m.?
I did consider that but it is so warm that she is sweaty in just her sleeper... I stopped the sleepsack a week ago because she wasn't settling at all until 9/10pm :( I am thinking that I might try sneaking into her room and putting a light blanket on her around 3/4am though...
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Oh bless her Kara. I totally feel your pain & know just how hard it is to get anywhere when there is EW involved. I too have always found that monster naps backfire b/c he would just end up UT at BT & do a super short night.
TBH I think the best thing you could possibly do right now in order to minimise OT whilst still trying to push the day on is to put her down at say 11.30am, so her morning is no longer than 6hrs. Then cap her nap at 2hrs, absolutely no more or you will get a shorter night through her being UT at BT. You don't want to push her BT though or you will cause OT from her day being too long IYSWIM? I would do this for a few days & then gradually push nap (and BT) later by 15mins at a time, perhaps every 3-5 days if she'll cope with it, or every week if she cant, and keep going until her nap starts at 12.30pm & is capped at 2hrs max, BT 5hrs later at 7.30pm. If you still get BT resistance &/or EW once you are there then I would try pushing the nap a wee bit later still, towards 1pm & you might then find she starts getting up a bit later. (((hugs))) hun as doing that is tough (BTDT) but I think it really will help.xx
(((hugs))) Melissa. So she woke at 8.30am & then refused her nap at what time? Did you try putting her down later? I really think hun that if she is sleeping nights as long as that she might well be saying 'I don't need a nap today Mummy, I already had 12.5hrs sleep' IYSWIM? Oliver is getting that amount of sleep in 24hrs too, but that is split between nap & BT (1.5hrs nap, 11hr night) so that's pretty good going really. Just keep on offering & she may go back to napping in a couple of weeks time.xx
ETA: meant to say if capping nap at 2hrs, do BT 5hrs later no more.
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I think we are just gonna have to wing it to get this OT under control...
I did a combo of winging it and trying to be consistant. If I had 2-3 days where I found naps were taking over nights more so than usual I just capped the nap, earlier BT and Xed my fingers. This usually gave us a longer night. That said we didnt really get EW here (but we are getting them now!) we had NW instead and SA style screaming ::)
Sorry to hear you're having a tough time. My little girl slept 8-8:30 and refused a nap today. 3rd nap refusal in a little over a week. Her WU times were different for all 3 so I have no idea what's going on. I hope things get better
So many hugs, I have a friend IRL whose boy is doing this, its hard :( :-*
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I was thinking exactly that Claire... I have tried the AM CN route with no joy... just a PM nap refusal ::)
Maybe something like this:
WU 530am
Nap 1130-130
BT 645/7pm?
Do that for a few days then start the push of the day 15 mins at time? I could likely do every 3 days as she does cope well with A time pushes and I rarely get OT naps from her (thankfully!)
Sara - ick. Luckily we don't get NWing too much... teething is really the only thing that does it here. And SA style screaming is always a great time ;) We haven't had that for a couple of months now... but I wouldn't be surprised if it starts again with the OT.
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Thanks ;) I did her nap at 1:15 tried til 2:20 and quit. Guess I'll do early bed? Sigh think I need to wake her in the a.m. To shorten her night? I can't see putting her down later to bed 8 is late enough for all of us lol. The 2nd no map day she woke at 7:30 though! Ugh I think I will maybe try for 8-7:30 nights and see if she takes her nap more consistently. It really IS a lot to ask for a nap after that long of a night
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Kara - I just edited my last post. When I said don't push BT too far or she'll get OT, I meant to add that I've always done no more than 5hrs A to BT & that's always worked really well for us. That said, it was around the 18 month mark when he actually started to get UT with that. So....I'd probably see how she manages, PD at 6.30pm if she struggles, or nearer to 7pm if she is ok but no later. Then like you say, you can push the nap & BT later again at the same time.
Melissa. If she woke at 8.30am & you tried for her nap at 1.15-2.20 then I would say that without a doubt she wasn't tired enough. Oliver is doing close to 11hr nights usually & he can last 6hrs before his nap. So, your choice is to go with it, skip the nap if she doesn't want it & enjoy the lovely long nights, and she will nap as & when she needs it, or, you do like you say & wake her a little earlier so she is having a consistent length night & then she may be more likely to take the nap. I do think you'll need to aim nearer to 6hrs A though if you want her napping, so you could perhaps do 7.30am WU, 1.30pm nap for say 1.5hrs & 8pm BT? That would be a decent length day of 12.5hrs - what do you think???
If it makes you feel any better, Oliver had an 11.5hr night last night as we've had almost a week of earlier WU's & so we've cut his nap to 1.5hrs. Anyway, he was at nursery, & they put him down at his usual 6hrs A & he didn't settle for 30mins, & only slept 1hr, woke happy! So I am thinking when his night is over 11hrs, he isn't even tired after 6hrs. So its not all plain sailing here either! xx
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So, weird things going on here :/ I think she is about to cut her first canine (with the second one close behind!) I can see the white tip of it and it's not too far from the edge of her gums... she must be having poor restless night sleep and then waking early from OT/pain combo! Poor baby! She barely made it from 510am to 1005am... she was sobbing for a nap at 945. So I got her bottle and carted her off to her room, she passed out cold and I fully expected to have a messy afternoon when she woke around noon on her own... well - I had trouble waking her at 1pm! Typically, I just open her door and she sits up... not today... I actually spoke to her and stroked her arm without so much as a flinch from her! I spoke to her again and she just moved further away from my voice and closed her eyes again!
I was about to just leave her as she clearly needed to sleep but she finally sat up and uttered a very pitiful "momma?"
About 5 mins after we got to the living room, she signed for teething gel - they must be really bothering her :(
Had planned for a 7pm BT but she was OT and took a touch longer than usual to settle, it was 710pm.
With any luck, that nap has helped curb that OT and she will have a decent night of at least 10.5 hrs!
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so you could perhaps do 7.30am WU, 1.30pm nap for say 1.5hrs & 8pm BT? That would be a decent length day of 12.5hrs - what do you think???
we tried for ebt last night at 7...since she had no nap and had been up since 8:30...she then claimed she had to go pee pee ..so we went to the potty but she just played...finally got her in the crib by 7:30...wasn't asleep til like 8:20 (OT by that point I'd think) She woke on her own at 7:15 this morning and was out like a light at 12:50...she usually will take a few mins to settle so I put her down around 12:50 but she went right out...it's 2:25 and she is still sleeping so I guess today was a success..we'll see what happens
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That's looking better Melissa!
Wish I could say the same. :/ We were up for the day at 515am (10hr 5 min night). Not bad considering she had a wickedly long nap of 3 hrs 10 mins that I struggled to wake her from... She passed out in the car for about 5 mins at 945am and then refused a PM nap when I tried at 1230pm.. then again at 1pm... loaded her into the car at 130 and she was out cold at 145pm... slept until 245pm. Shot for EBT with sleep at 645pm. She struggled to sleep and wouldn't let me AP her (normally she is fine to be rocked until drowsy when OT)... finally asleep at 710pm. Good part: she is paci free! I only gave her one and she tossed it but went to sleep anyways... it's been over an hour and nothing from her.
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Ladies i still don't have a laptop so can't read the thread fully but i really need help before i crack! After our failed attempt at capping... We did a week of CU with LO napping 2.15 - 3hours and STTN 11hours ish. My problem was that LO was falling asleep mid morning so we couldnt go anywhere in car or pram and also LO was in a rubbish mood in mornings but still happy and rested right up to BT. Then sunday LO was at my mums and only had 2 short CNs although still STTN. Monday she had CU nap of 3hours til 3.30pm then PD at 7.30pm as we cant do BT later than this. LO chatted in her cot UT until 8.35pm and woke in her worst mood ever at 6.45am yesterday. So i decided the nap needs to shorten if its going to steal night sleep. So yesterday.. Wu 6.45am nap12.30-2.30 bed 7pm. And it backfired on me again with 2 OT NWs and EW at 5.05am! With 7.5weeks until baby is here, several toilet trips a night, extreme preg fatigue and noisy neighbours i just cant cope with a rough night and EW. LO was 3 wks early and looking to be the same this time and i can't do nights of breastfeeding a.newborn as well as a toddler EW!!!
What do i do today? Should i stick with the capped 2hour nap or is my LO going to be too sensitive to capping and OT as i thought before? If i cant cap what do i do??? Help!
Edit - realised our routine has a long morning a and shorter afternoon with the fixed nap at 12.30. so today i PD at 12 as she was lying.on the floor falling asleep at 11 at.toddlers again!. Now she is.moaning.and having the.odd cry.and refusing her.nap. Hope she falls asleep soon. I will wake at 2.15 which should be around 2hours sleep if i include time taken to fall asleep. And BT at 7? Does this sound okay? I hav a feeling i may get another restless and short OT night.
Please excuse my typing, will come back and tidy up when.not.on phone x
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melissa - glad you got a nap yest! Hope she slept ok overnight for you.
kara - hope A gets back on track today
stardust - I think the thing you need to bear in mind is that when you start to cap there WILL be some OT. The OT isn't necessarily coming from capping (so long as you don't push too far/cap too short of course) but is more likely a build up of OT from what has happened over a few days prior to you starting. For eg, last night you got 2 NW's & an EW which certainly sounds OT. However, is it OT because you capped her nap, or is it because the day before she had a super long 3hr nap, went to bed UT & did a short night. DYSWIM? Sometimes it can take a wee while for them to get past the OT & settle into a new rhythm, so it may be you need to do it consistently & keep with the same nap time, nap length & bedtime for at least a week or 2 before you can say for sure whether it is or isn't working.
And (((hugs))) hun b/c I've been there & with DS also being touchy I know how awfully grumpy OT can make him, but I have also learned that in being so afraid of him getting OT, I can often end up putting him down UT & IMHO this is worse, b/c if he isn't tired enough we get EW, and in our house EW = long day = OT. That was a lot of waffle but I really hope it makes sense.
xx
ETA: I also want to reiterate that a 2hr nap is still a really good & restorative nap. If you were capping at say 1hr & she was getting OT then I'd definitely say the nap is too short & its the cause of the OT, but at this stage I don't think that's the issue. I think she is just in an UT/OT loop (UT at BT, OT at naptime) & the way to sort it is to cap, or increase the A time to BT. I think a 2hr nap at 12pm & a 7pm BT sounds good for today though hun. I really do think she'll need a consistent 5hr A to BT if you want to get out of the loop.
HTH.xx
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Things are awful here... refused a PM nap so took her for a drive and she slept an hour from 145-245. Went down after some chatting at 710pm... STTN but woke at 450am!
What the heck do I do now? She has had 2 nights in a row of less than 10 hrs sleep and a day of only 1 hr 10 mins total nap in the middle...
I think I have to just let her take a mega nap to catch up today? I am terrified of trying 2 naps as I get a PM refusal with as little as a 5 min AM car snooze! Ugh.
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Kara we are the same. LO will only nap once no matter how tired. I would allow a mega CU nap but not sure what the other girls would do?
Thanks claire. I think we are at another of those stages where no matter what i do her sleep is going to be poor and all i can do is salvage whatever i can! She is over sensitive to OT and cannot handle even a teeny bit without that EW coming.back and awful mood. Today went -
5.05am WU
7 hrs A (falling asleep on floor by 10.45-11)
PD 11.55AM, refusal until 12.45-1pm
Restless nap, awake for a bit at 2.15, back sleep until 2.45pm woke self think she had 1hr50ish maximum?
Tired by 5.45pm, low key evening and PD when comfortably tired at 7.15, no refusal!
UT is always better than OT at our house as OT means short naps, EW, NWs, PD refusal and SA all in one! As well as poor mood and complete food refusal its no:- fun!! ;-)
Her morning needs to be shortened meantime until her WU goes later as we are missing her sleep window and putting down OT. No idea what WU we will get tomorrow!
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Yikes Stardust - sounds like we are living in the same ugly reality right now...
I am hoping for a mega CU nap....
I managed to keep her up until 10am... but she was OT and had to be AP'd to very drowsy (only had to rock/snuggle for about 5 mins).
Our day so far -
450am - WU
1010am - nap started, 1120am - very rough transition with loads of faffing for about 10 mins... still sleeping at 1137.
Ugh - she is awake: 1212pm. FARK!
She dozed back to sleep until 1230pm...
Kept it low key and she was shattered by dinner time. Off to the bath at 615pm, sleeping at 645pm. Phew.
Her days are soooo long right now, but I don't know how to address it effectively... ideas?
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How did your night go Kara? Does sound similar to our house! If I ever find something that works I will let you know!
No change here really. Still a very tired and unhappy LO refusing sleep. I have just ttied an earlier PD in the hope that she falls asleep without getting too OT.
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Hmmm.
I made a bit of a silly mistake.
Decided to work with the 6.15am WU as this is the time we've had for 7/10 days regardless of BT and nap length.
So I decided to start with 5.5hour A time and PD at 5hr20 and she did fall asleep at the 10min mark without a peep which is unheard of recently so a good start. But 5.5 can't be enough A as she woke chatting at 1hour20 but was then exhausted after another hour! So will add 15mins A and see what happens. Quite stuck at BT as LO is exhausted but won't do a 12hour night so can't really put down earlier than 6.30 but if LO is too OT we will get 5am Wu which is worse so just got to PD and cross fingers!
Today 6.15 wu. Nap 11.45-1.05. BT 6.30??
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Ugh. I would do no earlier than 630 but but no later than 7pm for sure.
We have hit an all time low here.
PD at 640pm and was asleep at 645pm last night. Up at 430am and would not go back to sleep :(
I am at a total loss now. I have to get BT later as she just is not tacking on anymore and rarely sleeps longer than 11 hrs. Most common nights are 10.5-10.75hrs. So, I have put her down for a nap at 935am and giving her an hour. Then will try to get a PM nap as well.
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Stardust - I would probably try & aim for nudging her gently towards a 6hr A in the AM. Let her nap for 2hrs & then shoot for BT 4.5-5hrs later. I can say that helped us through this regression, without a shadow of a doubt.
Kara - I think the same advice will probably apply for you too. ATM A is having a very early & very long morning nap & this will just compound the EW & I also fear if you allow a 1hr AM nap today you may get PM nap refusal & end up with her being super OT at BT, or if she takes one she will be UT at BT leading to another EW. IIWM (having BTDT of course) I would really really recommend pushing her nap later. I think you need to get it after lunch at 12.30pm earliest, possibly heading towards 1pm to be rid of the EW. And I also think you need to cap at 2hrs max, or nap will steal from night. I know she is OT but its the combo of long & early nap that is causing the short nights, which makes her OT. So allowing more long naps is like adding fuel to the fire IYSWIM?
Sorry ladies I hope that doesn't sound harsh - if it does I don't mean it to. Its always easier from the outside looking in, when you are in the pits of OT & sleep deprivation its not fun & its not easy to see clearly what you need to do b/c you just want so desperately to fix it. Big (((hugs))) all round to you both today.
We had an EW (10hr night) this morning too, so we're all in the same boat!x
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Thanks claire. Its just so hard to see LO in this horrible mood all the time and we are missing out all our activities etc. as shes just so exhausted and not interested. And i cant go visit anyone in the car as she falls asleep within 10mins!
I think we made a slight recovery today...
6.15 wu
5.30 a (p.d. at 5.20)
11.45 - 1.05 nap
3pm almost almost asleep on walk
7.00 bed (p.d. at 6.40)
Tomorrow we have a funeral so Mum has LO meaning probably CNs only but i will ask her to PD at 5.40A (so pushed 20mins later than today) anyway and cap at 2hrs.
I will beat this before baby arrives! I will! This too shall pass :-)
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Awww (hugs) hun - we were right where you were a month or 2 ago & I know - its not nice seeing them so tired. I think today looks good, hope she has a good night.x
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Thanks Claire - you are totally spot on hun. Though, she did not at all refuse her PM nap ;) Had an hour from 935-1035am... she went down after a 30 second mantra at 2pm. I was planning to wake at 330pm, but she just woke on her own at 325pm from a nice well rested nap (no OT business).
BT at 730/745pm??
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hi Ladies, sorry y'all are having such a rough time right now. Hoping you can look at M's schedule and maybe offer some suggestions. I really dont think this is the 18 month regression, I think he just needs a change in his easy since he has been on the same one for so long, but who knows.
He used to do..
wu 7;00
nap 1:15-2:00
BT in bed by 7:00 sleeping by 7:45 (he always like a long wind down to himself)
now he is skipping naps and having long nws.
Last night he STTN for the 1st time in over a week
wu 7:00
in bed for nap 1:00 .. didnt sleep, happily played until I got him up at 2
BT in bed at 6:15 asleep within 5-10 minutes.
The main problems I have is that I really dont want to cut his nap shorter than 45min or have a later bt. I'd rather just do no nap and have a decent bt. But I dont think he can handle no nap everyday... I dont know what to do.
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Kara - phew! Glad A took the nap! Hope she had a better night as a result.
Mama_C - have you chatted to MommaBrooke? - L has no nap days & I think she just gives a nap every few days to keep OT at bay. Maybe that would work for M? Might be worth PMing her to see how she's handled it? My only other thought is to try him for a 1.30pm nap & see if that helps him settle more easily?
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Just as I suspected, after no nap yesterday he had a 3hr long NW. From midnight to 3am. Got him up at 7:00 as normal and he is happy as a clam. I am so lost..
Claire I will try your idea of putting him down at 1:30 for his nap, that will make BT later but I guess thats better than these long NW's. I'm sure today he will need an earlier nap after being up half the night so as long as everything works out today I will try it tomorrow.
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well - we were up at 530am again :( 10 hrs. So I am going to push her as far as I can today and cap her at 2 or 2 hrs 15 mins depending on how she is... will hold BT as close to 730pm as she allows. I think it's teeth mostly.. pain meds make no diff to her nap/sleeps but she does seem quite gurgly in the morning and is a little burpier than normal too... and we had a lovely teething poop this morning too. Gross.
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oh yuck Mama_C! Does he do long NW like that when OT ??? We only ever get cryouts when OT, but we get the dreaded EW instead. WRT the later nap - the beauty of the later nap is that it doesn't necessarily mean a later BT. Because they have more A in the AM, they don't necessarily need to go to bed any later in the PM. IIWM I would try later nap with usual BT & just see. If he fights it then you'll know from the off if it will work or not. I've certainly found that to be true with O. I was surprised to read today that you can apparently push as far as a 2pm nap capped at 45mins & then still go to bed at 7/7.30pm & STTN to 7am. I'd never have thought that possible!!!
Kara - boo! I really hoped it would pull off. I think IIWM I would go as far as she will this morning but I'd be wary of pushing her more than 6hrs or she will likely be OT from the long morning. Then I would shoot for around 5hrs A after her nap so a 6.30pm BT. Definitely no later than 7pm. I think if you do a later BT it may backfire as her day will be too long & she will get OT from short night/long morning/long afternoon IYSWIM? Perhaps just try & stay with the 11.30am nap for 2hrs / 5hr A to bed for a few days then nudge it on by 15mins at a time so 11.45-1.45 with 6.45 BT, 12-2 with 7pm BT & so on. What do you think?
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oh yuck Mama_C! Does he do long NW like that when OT
he didnt used to, but it is whats been happening for the last 2 weeks whenever he skips his nap. The weird thing about his long NW's, he doesnt cry out for me much. He spends most of that time fussing and rolling around. Every now and then he will cry out for me but if I try to rock him back to sleep he will start playing.
I would try later nap with usual BT & just see.
I will try that. So far today its noon and he is eating lunch. I am going to try for nap at 12:30 and let him sleep until 2 to catch up on some sleep from last night. But I have a feeling IF he naps it wont be before 1:pm.... Keeping my fingers crossed.
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Oh dear.
Downhill again thanks to my Mum!
Last night was fab, asleep 7pm to 6.20am and good mood this morning shouting for breakfast!
Got Mum to watch LO at ours today since I didnt want to mess our sleep up after progress yesterday. I wrote out our exact routine again and said that LO to be PD at 12pm which would likely have given us a perfect nap and BT. The plan was that Mum would keep LO at ours for a decent nap then go to hers for the rest of the afternoon and I'd pick her up later there. Theres no place for LO to sleep at Mums as she has too many animals and doesnt like to keep up the blackout blind or white noise we bought. So frustrating!
Well Mum decided at 11am that it was too nice a day to be staying near home for nap and took her back to hers so LO got a small CN in the car all day and that was it! She slept on our way home at 5.30 for exactly 20mins and I had to wake her so of course she was inconsolable for 30mins and is still awful. And now I have no idea what time to do BT at and just know we are in for a rough night and day :-( Mum just doesnt listen or goes against what we say and it's really getting me and OH down. For other reasons too we just think it's better if LO only goes for short stays now :-(
So after the funeral today and then this it's been a horrible day. Sorry for the off topic rant, I hope everyone else is having a better time than.us!
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Awww Stardust :( I'm so sorry that your mom is such a pain! Poor LO is the one who pays the price for her decisions!
I hope she went down okay for you tonight and has a good sleep.
Claire - thanks so much hun. I made the choice at 532am to go ahead and push her as far as i could! Went to playgroup for just over an hour and she came home and followed Dh around quite happily! Ate some lunch and she was knackered! Managed to get her to 1215pm without too much protest actually! Loads of cuddles from 1130am onwards though... just kept things very mellow. Will let her nap 2 hrs 15 mins and do BT 5 hrs later at 730pm, unless she clearly needs to go earlier. DH works until after she is in bed so I can keep things very quiet with just us two tonight - what is it with dad's always winding them up so much?
I think I have solved some of the environmental things that may have been contributing to her poor sleep - changed her crib back to a flannel sheet (the girl needs comfort!), got her sleepsack/bed clothes figured for our weird temps now. I have a 2.5 tog GroBag (will be looking for a 1.0 tog after nap!) and used a long-sleeved onesie (I think you call them BabyGros that side of the pond!) and she was toasty but not hot this morning.
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out temps are aweful right now too Kara.. Its wicked hot when M goes down but gets cold about 1-2am.
Well he napped from 1-2pm and I can tell he is still tired so I'm going to put him to bed at 6:30 and hope for a better night. After being up for 3 hrs last night I am really hurting today from my appendectomy. So glad DH will finally be home tomorrow, its been a VERY long 9 months without him.
Sorry, I'd respond to everyone else but just chillin as much as possible trying to get well.
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Hugs Mama_C - so glad to hear that your DH is coming back home!
We have the exact same temp issues - her room is quite warm when I put her down but cools right off overnight. She doesn't like blankets at all - maybe because she has never really used one! I snuck into her room and put a blanket on her at midnight a few nights ago - she was still up at 530.
Last night, I did a long sleeved onesie with her sleep sack and she seemed okay... it's a lot cooler today and rained a fair bit so she is in a sleeper and her sack.
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WOOHOO.. M STTN !!!
So today going to do nap at 1:30 to see if that helps him go to sleep. But I am wondering, if I put him down at 1:30 and he doesnt go to sleep until 2 what do I do then? If I wake him at 2:45 dont I need to wait until 7:45 at the earliest to put him down for bed?
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Mama_C - I would let him have no more than 45 mins... and do BT 5 hrs later as you thought :)
Claire - I am happy to report that A slept until 557am!! WOOT WOOT! So much better than the 530am I was lucky to get the last couple of weeks... the extra half hour of night sleep has transformed my baby girl back into the happier version of herself (she still has a toddler-tude though!). Pushing nap to 1215 again (she woke OT at 1 hr 45 min yesterday so I had to help her back down and ended up waking her at 240 with BT 730). So... I don't wanna push her too far too fast! It's working! Thanks so much!!!!
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Mama_C. I'd def try it. If he doesn't settle right away, I'd give him his 45mins from when he went to sleep but still try BT at the usual time. Just because the extra A in the AM might override the shorter A in the PM, yk?
Kara - yay!!! Hang in there, might be a rough week or 2 while you get back on track but she will do it I'm sure.
Stardust - hope everything is ok today & she's managed to catch up a bit after the day with your mum?
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Thanks Claire. Actually not too bad here! 7.15pm last night until 6.30am. Good mood today. Nap 12.30 - 2.25 (uncapped). Was pretty tired by 6pm and think needed a reasonably early BT but had visitors so didnt PD until 7.15 but she was asleep without protest in 10mins. I hope she is still in a good mood tomorrow as have a feeling I let her get a little OT. OH wants a day out tomorrow but i really want to be home for naptime!
Hope everyone else is okay x
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Oh my goodness! I think we may actually be creeping out the other side of the regression ;D ;D
LO didnt need me at all last night and has woken happy amd well rested. We did have a few call outs between 10 and 11.30pm but I had no teething powders left at bedtime and didnt medicate and forgot LOs amber teething necklace so could have been some niggling still!
The only thing we have been doing differently is bringing the nap earlier to get out of the OT/UT loop (thanks claire!) I havent capped the past week but then LO has woken herself before the 2hour mark anyway or i probably would. The past 3 days i have also added 1oz chamomile tea to bedtime milk and the rest of the mug to bath. Otherwise i have not too many tips except ride it out and stay consistent! Its been a very long 6 or 7 weeks!
Now, we had a little blip this morning. OH went to the toilet at 5.45am which woke LO and she stayed awake for 30mins then slept in til 7 so we're knocked later today. When baby comes along i'm 100% sure LO wont be able to sleep through us getting us for night feeds etc. so I am going to start another thread on ideas for preparing LO now so pop along if you have any ideas.
Think i may hang out in here for a bit and see if I can help anyone else x
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Well, made it through another day - she capped nap on her own about 5 mins before I was to wake her. Kept BT at 730pm... took her 10 mins to settle (odd!) but I did hear a toot over the monitor ::) She was quiet right after that... woke at 559am.
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Ahh no!
Left Daddy in charge yesterday and look whats happened :-(
Yest PD at 12.35. I went to bed and left OH with monitor. I woke up at 3.30 to a quiet house! Went to check with OH who tried to insist that LO hadnt fallen asleep until 2pm! I honestly dont think she would have stayed quiet in her cot for 1.5hours and think she fell asleep aroud 12.45 as i didnt hear her from the bedroom after this. I am pretty sure OH was too busy enjoying his PS3 to wake LO! So i woke her by this point it was 3.45! LO in awful mood all afternoon and inconsolable from being woken from a deep sleep :-( At night she didnt fall asleep until after 8.30 then woke at 5am! She went back to sleep briefly from 5.45 then was up for the day at 6.15.
Now Ive gotten LO really OT. PD at 12.15 and shes been having a 20minute party in there with no sign of going to sleep. It feels like she is just deliberately being really naughty. She squawked NOOOO at me as i got her ready for bed then has been bouncing in the cot, kicking.the bars, letting out this awful shrieking cry so i went in thinking shed got stuck or hurt herself and she laughed and shouted hiya at me then kept asking for kisses. Funny reading it back but not while its happening to you!! Think she is finally quiet/asleep at 12.45. I am waking at 2.30 regardless as otherwise theres just not enough A for her to fall asleep at BT!
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Oh dear. Well I suppose if nothing else, it goes to show that 3hr naps are definitely too much day sleep for her now. It sounds like she was 'wired' at naptime rather than being deliberately naughty hun, though I know how trying it can be when they don't cooperate lol. Don't blame yourself though, I think you did right to keep her as close to her usual naptime as possible, and I also think you do right waking her at 2.30pm. She will make up for it tonight.xx
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Thanks :-)
Shes still so unhappy and not eating a thing either but not ill. She bit me earlier and I checked her mouth and tooth no17 (big bottom molar) is bulging below the gum. My poor lady, her canines only broke a week or 2 ago!, I capped about 1.55 (2.40, gave extra.10mins) and she wasnt too bad but exhausted by 6pm.
PD 15mins ago and still wired in her cot bouncing away and shouting oh wow. hope its not too long. I gave calpol and nurofen yesterday and last night which is the only thing i can think of.different. Normally use teething powders but have none left. Could meds have this hyper effect on her?
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Oh dear hun. I don't think the meds would do that tbh. I think a lot of it is just down to their age (i.e. developmental). I don't know if you remember, but we also had all this craziness for a couple of months & then it suddenly stopped. Of course teething can also upset things, but I think you may find those 2yr molars will take quite a long while to come in. My DS got his canines at 13 months, and his molars started bulging just after Christmas when he was 16.5 months. He is now 21.5 months & there is still no sign of the molars but they do play up on & off, as they shift about under the gums. Hopefully your DD won't be like my DS though & hers will cut soon!
Just keep in mind - tomorrow is a new day!
It is for us too as we have to start capping at 1.5hrs now, there's no holding it off. I tried pushing his nap later to 1.30pm in an effort to make sure he's tired enough for bedtime & he's most definitely not. He's up there faffing around right now.
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Faffing babies stress me out!
DD has been so much better now that I have pushed her nap back out - thanks again Claire! Happiness has been restored!
Yesterday:
WU 559am
Nap 1220-230pm ( I woke)
BT - PD @ 728, sleeping 731pm STTN
Today:
WU 550am (ARGH!) but, went back to sleep until 615am!
Nap 1227 - 230 (I will be waking her)
BT 730pm
SO MUCH BETTER!
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Yay glad to hear it Kara! Give it a couple more weeks & see if the 2hr capped nap does the trick.
If she starts waking earlier than 6 on a regular basis I would probably push the nap 15mins later again. A 1pm nap seemed to get us on the straight & narrow after this regression & his A to BT stayed the same at 5hrs. This meant a slightly later BT of 8pm, if we'd have wanted to keep the earlier BT (7.30pm) we'd probably have had to trim the nap by another 15mins.
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Thanks Claire!
Her nap was at 1240pm before so I wouldn't be at all surprised if it heads closer to 1pm in the near future!
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Kara, I'm glad things are looking brighter for you.
I have a mess again. M sttn last night then refused his nap again today. I put him down at 1:30 but he just played until it was time to get up. I was going to do BT at 6:pm but its 6 now and he is just getting out of the tub. I am hoping to have him in bed at 6:30. I KNOW we will have another LONG nw tonight now. I dont mind him skipping his nap but I need to figure out how to avoid the long nw when he does skip it... Any suggestions?
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Eek. We still got EW.
LO asleep by 7.30. Restless but no wakings. Very restless from 4.45 then up by 5.30 and wouldnt go back to sleep. In a reasonable mood although tired. She didnt have any lunch or dinner yest so maybe hungry.
Thinking i will have to do earlier nap today or we will never get past the OT. Wish this would just go away, I'm dreading doing EW with DD and also night feeds with baby!
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I'm in shock, M went to bed at 6:30 last night and sttn. Either that or I slept through him talking/crying. He woke at 6:35 this morning so he got a good 12 hour night. Now to see what happens today.
Stardust.. I hope things straighten out for you. I would bet the ew was due to hunger. Did you try giving a bottle at 4:45?
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Wow I don't understand my baby girl anymore. We get back on track and it all goes downhill. It's like a cycle. Doesn't seem to STAY on point. Last few days I am getting 6/6:30 wu's which I feel bad about complaining compared to some of u ladies :/ but being use to 8/8:30 this plain old sucks. We also have occasional nap refusal! Maybe 4 times in the last month. Today she was up at 6 and this is what I'm thinking ...what if I just pushed to the usual 1 pm nap? I feel like moving her nap up due to the EW is kind of encouraging it...any thoughts?
Kara this is working for you I see huh? I NEED her back on track :/
UGH!!! pushed to the reg 1pm nap time (7 hr A) and she slept 1 HR! she made it to 1pm no problems at all..happy as a lark... whimpered a bit and more or less went right out...she woke crying...i tried to let her go a bit but she was getting really upset...so she's up! in a fine mood now but an hour is no good with a 6 am wu :( should I still with it and bring her to her usual 8pm BT? I don't know anymore...
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Melissa - did you consider pushing her nap later? Is she still generally napping for 2hrs? If so I would say you need to start cutting it down hun. We are about to start capping at 1.5hrs. I don't like doing it, but it is necessary, b/c his nap is stealing from his night. He either wakes early or he takes forever to settle at bedtime.
WRT moving the nap earlier due to the EW - if you feel the EW is down to her being overtired it can help in the short term i.e. for a couple of days, but if you do it for longer you are right, it will encourage her to keep waking earlier. Your best bet is probably to shoot for around 6hrs A, so nap at say 12 & then in 3 days time push it 15mins later, so 12.15 & so on until you are back where you want it to be. I think if you want to get back to your 8am WU's you need to be aiming for her nap to be more like 2pm and probably capped at 1/1.5hrs max, or she'll not be ready for bed at bedtime.
WRT today, I'd say her nap was an OT nap at 1hr, which I'm sure you already know. I would probably pull BT earlier to around 7pm & hope she tacks on overnight.
HTH.xx
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Thanks clairebear yea I hope she does..I put her down at 7:45 last night and she woke at 6...so I'm gonna pray she tacks it on we are going to have an even earlier waking :(
you said to think about pushing her nap later than 1...but you also mentioned doing a 6 hr A before nap...which should I be focusing on you think? like her norm for a while there (after not waking at 8 anymore :/) was 7:15...so should I do nap at 1:15? should i just be doing a 6 hr A from whenever she wakes up (being that its been so damn sporadic these days) or pick a set nap time and cross my fingers?
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Would you be happy to stay with a 7.15am WU for the short term??? If so I would probably just try gradually getting the nap back to a 1.15pm start, and then gradually cut it back so cap at 1h 45 to start with & 8pm BT, see how she settles/when she wakes. Give it at least a week before you assess whether its working ok. If she still takes ages to settle or wakes early still then I'd push nap to 1.30pm start but wake at 3pm so its cut back to 1.5hrs & keep BT at 8pm. I think doing this it will give you the best chance of a later wakeup time.
WRT set nap v 6hr A, you are ultimately aiming for around a 6hr A with your nap 6hrs from your ideal wakeup. But I have to say I find the set nap works better, its so much more consistent. See when she wakes tomorrow, if 6am again I'd do nap at 12-12.30 latest, capped at 1h 45 & an earlier bedtime. Then tomorrow push the nap 15mins later. So its a set nap but shifting later every 3 days IYSWIM? She might get a bit OT while you do it but hang in there & it'll come good.
xx
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Melissa - it worked right away with Alexandra! She was sick a couple weeks ago and had her DTaP booster shot too... all that led to naps being earlier and an EW resulted. We got into the famous early start, early nap, early BT... and again cycle. I just had to push hard and stick with it a couple days and we were golden :) I do min 6 hrs A time before nap...
This is us now:
Wake 620am (was 625am today!)
Nap 1230pm - 230pm (capped)
BT 730pm.
She settles well and STTN...
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kara, so do you think I should do the 1pm nap no matter what her wu time in the morning is? this was our day
6am wu
1pm-2pm nap
???? BT
do YOU think I should bump up BT to 7pm for tonight or try to get her to reg 8 pm bed time?
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I would do BT at 7pm tonight :) No later for sure.
As for pushing her nap in general - I pushed Alexandra as far as I could the first day (our goal was back to a 1230/1240pm nap from an 1115/1130am nap that we were doing)... she got to 1215pm the first day... She had been doing a 2.5 hr nap and a 10 hr night and was a mess... it was a tough push! She did 6 hrs 45 mins A time after a 10 hr night! Then I let her nap 2 hrs 15 mins (our goal was a 2 hr capped nap)... since her nights were so short and she was certainly OT, I didn't want to cut if too fast, KWIM? She slept 2 hrs 15 and I woke her... BT 5 hrs later... she slept 10 hrs 20 mins that night... then I did the same nap time and length for another 2 days... then pushed her to 1220pm with a 2 hr 10 min cap. BT 5 hrs later (it was held at 730pm). She started to do 10 hrs 40 mins so I am capping her nap at 2 hrs today... she made it to 1230pm today as she slept until 625am this morning. BT will be 730pm and her nap will now stay at 2 hrs until she starts to wake earlier again... then I will cap it at 1 hr 45 mins.
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We had a good day today..
WU 6:35
Nap 1:30-2:30
BT 7:30.... In bed playing, hope he goes to sleep soon.
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I put her down at seven and she went right to sleep. She woke at 6:20 AM ugh. Same as yesterday. Yesterday she took a nap at one and only slept one hour. OT I guess. What naptime should I do today? I hate to make it earlier and start that early cycle but I don't want another overtired nap. Sigh not sure what to do you don't want to encourage this early Waking. Maybe do 1230?
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Girls. After a few days of 2hour nap LOs WU gets later (7am this morning 12hour night) and then i.dont seem to have enough daytime left to fit in a nap and reasonable BT. Today I have PD at 12.45 knowing it will.be.gone.1pm before shes actually asleep. If I let her have 2hours until 3pm it'll be after 8 before she.goes.to.bed.which is way too late for us and shell.probably EW!! So for today i will cap at 1hr30 which really isnt.good for more than 1day??
What routine should i have? I want a 6.15-6.45 WU and a 6.45 - 7.15BT.
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Mama_C - yay! Is the later nap helping? Are you letting him sleep for longer now?
Melissa - not sure I've reached you in time, but look at the positives - she slept an 11h 20 night, which is pretty reasonable at this age. OK its earlier than you would like, but she had a longer night so should be more rested. IIWM I would push as far as possible, 12.30pm absolute earliest but closer to 1pm if she will do it. Then I would allow her to sleep for 1h 45 absolute max. If its 1hr again then 7pm BT again, if its more, push her closer to 7.30/8.
stardust - capped nap is ok if your dd regularly pulls 12hr nights - its still 13.5hrs in 24 which is bang on average sleep needs. However, you may find she'll struggle to last the day on a 1.5hr nap if she had it every day. You don't know these things unless you try them, but I will admit hands down I was sure my DS needed a 1.5hr or less nap 2-3 months ago & look how he proved me wrong! That said, I was prepared to accept a shorter night (nearer to 11hrs) and was also prepared to wake him in the morning/from naps. Is that something you would be willing to do ???
Based on what you are wanting I would say aim for something like this:
Wake: 6.15am
Nap: 12.15-2/2.15pm
Bed: 7/7.15pm
I think you will need to wake her in the mornings if you want any chance of sticking to this. But it may send her into OT if she's been waking at 7am & you suddenly wake her at 6.15, so you may need to wake her say 5mins earlier every day/few days until she is getting up at your desired wakeup time. Does that make sense?
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I just want to say a huge Thanks to Claire!
We made it to our goal of a 2 hr nap yesterday. She was clearly more tired in the evening so I did PD at 720 and she was out by 725pm (only 5 mins early though)... I woke her at 7am!
Down for a nap at 1245pm. Will wake at 235/240pm and keep BT at 730pm. After shaving only 10 mins off of her nap yesterday, I don't want to cut it too quickly for fear that she needs to go to bed at 7pm! I would love a wake up around 630am so this should pull her night back to 11hrs for me :)
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I just want to say a huge Thanks to Claire!
She is a star :-* Helped us through many a routine tweak and regression!
Well we are out of the regression I think BUT Im 99% sure Z needs an A increase before his nap so tomorrow its going to be 1pm. Here is my Q...do I leave BT as is or push it out a touch. Or cap the nap at 1hr45? He will respond to both I think, but I would prefer BT before 7.30 so DH and I have time to collapse on the couch before needing to go to bed ::)
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Mama_C - yay! Is the later nap helping? Are you letting him sleep for longer now?
The later nap seems to work as far as him going to sleep easier for his nap. But everyday is different. Today he woke at 6:00 due to being poopy and soaked. I didnt check on him so I didnt know this but ended up getting him up around 6:45 so he got a nap at 12:30 which was 6.5 hours from the time he woke and he was out within 3 minutes. Since he went down for his nap so early I let him sleep until 2:00 to keep BT around a normal time. Did BT at 7:00 but I had to hold him until he was asleep for some odd reason... So today was like this..
WU 6:00
nap 12:30-2:00
BT Sleeping 7:30
I am just going to stick with an A of 6.5 in the AM and try to figure out how much A he needs in order to go to sleep on his own at night and hopefully sttn. Not really sure where to start on the 2nd A though.
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Think I'm joining you ladies. We're having bedtime shenanigans with what seems like classic UT behaviour but I'm not sure whether it is regression. So do you mind if I hang out with you for a while?! :-*
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Clairebear - yea I didn't get ur post in time. I was shooting for a 12:40 nap...fearful of OT,but she needed to go potty last minute and that brought us to 1ish anyway. She woke a little after 2...sat up looked around whimpered and layed back down and slept til close to 3 so nearly 2 hrs. More than you suggested. DH had her in her crib and asleep by 8:10 last night...she woke at 6:20 again! Sigh 10 hr night :(
Quick recap age did an 11hr 20 min night the night before with an EBT of 7. What do I do now? Keep pushing for 1pm nap and sticking with 8pm BT and just hoping she starts waking later? I mean even with a 2 hr nap she should be able to pull an 11 hr night no?
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I mean even with a 2 hr nap she should be able to pull an 11 hr night no?
We haven't had an 11hr night with a 2hr night since DS was around 18 months old. We too get 10hr nights. I am convinced though, that the length of the morning A time has a lot to do with it. Oliver is now UT at bedtime if he does a 6hr A / 1h 45 nap / 5hr A. He is going to sleep nearer to 5.5hrs A. If I increase his A time to BT his day is getting very long and he gets overtired. So I am trying an even longer morning in the hopes it will mean he is sufficiently tired at bedtime, even if he does have a decent length nap. Failing that we will be cutting his nap shorter. It seems at this age there is no other way. If you have a long nap you have to accept a shorter night. And if you want a long night then you have to accept they can only have a shorter nap. Whether they can actually last the day without OT on a shorter nap though, is another matter. I am not convinced that Oliver can, hence why we are pushing the nap even later first. There will come a point though when a later nap will backfire b/c they will be UT at bedtime, and then the nap trimming is inevitable.
HTH.x
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Hmmmm yea I see what your saying. Well she was asleep around 1:10. Another late start due to potty AGAIN...and this time I started earlier to avoid that ugh. She already did peepee but kept saying she wasn't done. Thought maybe she had to poop but she just sat there a played so I nipped it. We read a story and she carried on for a min or two when i put her down. Prob OT at this point. Hope she sleeps well :/
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Claire.. It's interesting how LO's are so different. My nephew is 3yrs old and he can take a nap from 3-5pm and still go to bed at 8:00. Now M on the other hand wont sleep at night if he naps too long. I think with longer naps you end up running out of time to fit in a long night, iykwim. M has always done 12 hour nights but he has also been on 45min-1 hr naps for a very long time...
That all being said.. I just put him down for his nap at 1:30 and he is talking VERY loudly and acting like it's going to be a no nap day again. I'm going to have to start keeping track, it seems that he is skipping his nap every other day or so. I havent really paid attention.... Reading back it seems he skipped his nap on the 31st then napped for 3 days, skipped again on the 4th then napped the 5th and 6th. So if he sticks to any kind of schedule he is supposed to nap today and skip tomorrow.. LMAO I wish it was that easy. If he plays around until 2:15 we will skip the nap and go for 6-6:30 BT depending on how he is acting.
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Mama C what were his WU times on no nap days? Does he generally wake the same time everyday? My dd skipped naps mostly on days she woke later than usual. We did EBT those days too. Usually around 7
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Ok so here is our day
WU 6:20 (sadly becoming the norm and it stinks :/)
Nap 1:10-2:40 (1.5 hrs after a 10 hr night! WTH?!)
BT I dunno I'm guessing the usual 8pm right? Thinking if I do EBT it encourages the 6 something waking? But what if she wakes that early anyway as she has been?! Then we'll have short nights AND short naps!
Sigh thoughts please?!
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Hi Melissa. Funny her day looks pretty similar to Oliver's today, albeit 30mins earlier. He did this:
Up: 7am
Nap: 1.40-3.15 (I woke him)
Bed: 8.30 :o :o :o (put down at usual 7.45pm. Chattered for 45 mins! ::))
I waited til he showed me a tired sign before putting down for his nap today rather than going by the clock. - he rubbed his eye right on the 6.5hr mark. Anyhow, we put down for bedtime at his usual time 7.45pm, even though this was a shorter A time than usual of 4.5hrs (usually does 5hrs) & he chatted for the longest we've had in AGES. I thought the longer morning would help but it really didn't. So my only thought is that he needs no less than 5hrs to bed, but his morning may need extending by 15mins & the nap capping by 15mins & I will have to accept 11hr night/1.5hr nap. I am debating whether to do this by pushing the nap later or by waking him 15mins earlier. Won't be tomorrow though, if I wake at 7-7.15am he'll only have had 10.5-75hrs sleep. Booo!!!!!
So IIWM bearing in mind what happened for us today, I'd maybe try 7.40 pm BT so she's had a 5hr A time to bed???
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Clairebear- I'd be happy with that 11 hr night even if it was a 1.5 hr or so nap but I've lost my 11 hr nights...I NEED to get them back..well actually we HAD 12 hr nights before all this but I'd be fine with 11 hrs.
so you think I should do slightly earlier at 7:40 instead of 8? I just don't want to encourage this early morning...but also don't want her OT...she's been a wreck since waking from her nap...so not even sure if she'd make it til 8 anyway..nor will I at this rate...
these 6 something wake up are just killing me...I always wake around 6 anyway but that was my time to work out shower get stuff going for the day etc...now I'd have to get up at 5...that's just awful and more importantly with an 8 pm BT she just isn't getting enough night sleep...
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I think we have some growing or teeth happening here!
Two mornings in a row with a 7am wake up (I had to wake yesterday)... in bed at 720pm the time I had to wake at 7am... last night, she was PD at 720pm but chatted until almost 740pm... she was tired and rubbing her eyes at 9am! WTH?! Must be something going on - she is like this when teething so it could be those damn canines again!
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Mama C what were his WU times on no nap days? Does he generally wake the same time everyday?
He normally wakes around the same time 6:45-7:00am but he seems to wake earlier after a no nap day. It seems that after a no nap day he wakes anywhere from 6:00-6:45 almost never as late as 7:00. I used to wake him everyday at 7:00 but I havent had to do that in probably a month now.
He did end up sleeping today from 2:00-2:30 so I thought with a short nap he would need an earlier BT. So I put him down at 7:00 but now at 7:40 he is still messing around. This kid is so "low nap" needs its hard to figure him out.
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Still EW here.
LO had 2 days of waking herself at 1.25hrs ish after a shorter night then we hit OT hell. Awake at 4.45am this morning and asking for bed at 9am eeek. LO also cant switch off when OT and is taking on average 1-1.5hrs to fall asleep at BT. Holding out for a 12pm PD and will allow 2.15nap and hopefully 5hrs A to BT. FXd for me x
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Sounds like a good plan Stardust! Good luck! We were there last week with a 430am start - good times! Pushing the nap did fix it very quickly though!
I got a 715am wake up after a 2 hr nap and 725pm sleep time last night. I swear this kid is gonna wake up as a 5 year old soon!
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omg I got
wu 6:45
nap 1-1:45! (REALLY?! WHY?!)
bt 7:15 (the goal was an earlier bt but had to go to part of my son's bball game...was his first time pitching couldn't miss that..so hard having two so far apart in age sometimes :/)
I don't even know what to do anymore..I can't seem to get her to wake later although I guess technically today was 20 mins later than she has been doing but still 6 something..and the nap...ugh I don't even want to call it that...so hard not to get upset over it all
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lily, are you sure she isnt ut? She is 21 months correct? M has always been on the very high side of A times, but if he woke at 6:45 I would have called it 7:00 and put him down at 1:30
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Melissa - how long was her night before that?
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So how did she sleep Melissa? I am with Mama_C & suspect UT, esp since she keeps resisting/refusing the nap.
BTW we are getting nap resistance too. The other day I followed cues & he did his first eye rub at 6.5hrs, & that was following a 10.75hr night. Today he was put down for his usual 6h A & he didn't fall asleep til 6h 15. So we are definitely stretching that morning A. If he had a 12hr night plus, I'd almost think we could manage some days with no nap now, YK?x
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So... I am scared to say it outloud but DAY 5 OF A 7AM WAKEUP!!!! OMG!
And today she didn't go for a nap until 1pm... so, now my big question - how long do I let her sleep? She was doing 1230-230pm with BT at 730pm and things were fine but clearly she is needing that nap a bit later now... I was thinking cap at 1 hr 45 to ensure she is ready for bed at 730pm... hoping that the later nap that was a touch shorter would keep BT the same??? Thoughts?
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Girls I not sure of ANYTHING anymore. Think her might before was 11 hrs. I don't even know anymore :/ last night she slept 7:10-6:55 a.m. PD for nap at 1 BECAUSE she yawned and rubbed her eyes all morning and was a wreck HOWEVER she played nearly an hour and barely slept an hour. She woke with a dirty diaper though which I think played a big part. She never dirties her diaper so she had to be comfortable. :/ thinking maybe a longer morning A? How long though? So lost. No idea on BT tonight either
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Melissa - think it could be a developmental blip?
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Yay Kara that's fab!!! Yes I would cap slightly. She may go down fine at 7.30pm, or she may need until 7.45pm before she is ready for bed. What you have to watch out for with the later nap is that they don't get UT at BT. If the 1pm nap keeps happening & she starts taking ages to fall asleep at BT, that is when you know you need to start cutting the nap back. I am also finding that a 15min A increase in the AM also helps.
I am hoping we have found a new solution:
Up: 7.15am
Nap: 1.30-3
Bed: 8pm
I am thinking of shifting it all 30mins earlier as you would do with DST b/c I have to be honest - I don't really like the 8pm BT, it feels too late, & the 7.15am WU is lovely on my days at home but on my days at work it can be quite a pain b.c there isn't enough time to get us all ready for work!
Melissa - we are heading towards 6h 15 A time now, Mama_C is doing 6,5hrs - maybe she does need a wee bit more now hun? I know it sucks b.c its a big change from what she was doing, but at least she is still pulling some decent nights to make up for it. 45min nap+12hr night = 12h 45 - that's just as much sleep in 24hrs as Oliver is doing IYSWIM? If you are really concerned it is OT & not UT then you can always try an earlier & longer nap for a couple of days & see if that resets her, yk?x
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I dunno. I feel like I'm flying by the seat of my pants. Today I would have bet she was OT based on how she was all morning. Sigh I feel so lost. I hate this. She's in a great mood right now at 5:30. No idea when to do bed. 8pm is late for me too but worth a later WU WHEN we were getting one. So with our day being...
6:55 WU
2:10-2:55 nap (she did over 7 hrs A..pd was at 1 6 hrs A)
??? BT I guess 7? Or push til 8?
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I would do 7pm :)
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Yea that's what I was thinking she's off the wall chatty and hyper more than usual. Def thinking OT. hoping she pulls 12 hr night and do 7-7...maybe do 1:15 nap rather than 1? 6 hr 15 rather than 6 hr? IF she wakes at 7. What do u think?
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I am betting that if you put her down at 7 she is going to play and goof around until at least 8, but I hope for your sake I'm wrong.
I think I have to cut M's nap to 30min on normal days. Today for instance...
wu 7:00
down for nap at 1:30 not sleeping until at least 1:45 got him up at 2:30 (45min nap)
bt .. in bed at 7:20 hoping for sleep by 7:30 but didnt go to sleep until at least 8:00
I do NOT like 8:pm bt. I always had my other 4 in bed by 6:30 at this age. But I dont think they ever napped either.
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I pd at 7 she protested for like 2 mins...grabbed her bunny...laid down and was OUT. So hoping for a 12 hr night to catch up and then sim for a later nap time I guess? I dunno the thing is I've been doing 1 pm nap time for months. In these past few weeks even as her days were starting earlier and earlier, going from 8am WU to 6:15am WU we did 1pm nap most times. On occasion I'd pd slightly earlier but she usually didn't do well with it. So on 6:15am days she was getting 6hr 45 min A's in the morning. On days she woke at 8 she was getting only a 5 hr A. For the longest time that worked on 5 hrs.,giving 2+hr naps. It just all went nutty and I don't know which direction to go :/
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Sounds like a huge jump in A times Melissa :)
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Yea :/ on 6 something mornings at first I did earlier naps but I was trying not to encourage the early waking you know? So I started to push her to 1 and hoped shed start waking reg time. I dunno
So she did it ;) 7-7 2nd night in a row so I'd think that says she was OT right? Needed the extra sleep? So scared where to go from here and mess it up :/ I know a 12 hr night is too long to expect a descent nap on a regular basis so here is my REALISTIC hopeful goal...
11 hr night w/ a 2 hr nap. It's just how to get there that I'm lost on. What the right A times are...in order to fit that in a 24hr day I was thinking after doing some research on schedule for her age I found most woke at 7 and napped around 12 and 1 and bed at 8. Coming off a 12 hr catch up night I'm thinking I'd shoot for 1-1:15??? She did do well on the 8 WU 1pm nap for SO long I wonder if the opposite is true and that she needs a shorter 5 hr A? Why don't they come with a manual?! Ugh
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Melissa, what about trying 6hr A / 2hr nap / 5hr A, so up 7am, nap 1-3 & bed 8pm & stick to it like glue for a week. I hope you can achieve it, but TBH I think a 2hr nap is too much for lots of our LO's at this age, & I also think that if she has one, she simply won't sleep 11hrs at night.
We are getting an 11hr night with a 1.5hr nap. DS has done his 1st no nap day today.x
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clairebear- YES! exactly what I'm hoping for...I can even handle 1.5 hrs that's fine and I get what you are saying. That schedule you just listed is what she WAS doing only waking at 8 rather than 7 but I see how that is a lot of sleep for her age..she what she was doing so I went with it...now I'd be happy with a 7 am waking 1.5-2 hr nap and bt at 8....
It sounds good but i have no idea how to get her to do it :/ naptime is such a scary place these days..never know when she'll FALL asleep or IF she will it's awful :(
now yesterday she woke at around 7 and when i pd at 1 she took an hour to fall asleep but I wonder if that was the potty issue because she woke less than hour later with poop..so soon as she is done with lunch I will put her on the potty...hope she goes and doesn't take a century like she normally does...and i can have her in and asleep by 1ish...wish me luck
sorry to hear about the no nap today ...it's the worst..going to do ebt? how does he seem? what do you think happened?
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I think you just have to persevere with putting her down & hope she sleeps. If she doesn't, then you have to try a longer A & see if she will take a nap that way. And if she still won't nap then EBT is king!
sorry to hear about the no nap today ...it's the worst..going to do ebt? how does he seem? what do you think happened?
we had a christening to go to at 12.30 & he wasn't tired enough to nap before we went, as he'd got up at 7am. We decided to see how he fared & perhaps PD for a late nap, we were only at the other end of our street so no prob to take him home for his nap. He didn't seem tired at all at 1.30, nor 2, got first eye rub at 3ish but he was playing happily, so we stayed. 4.30pm he was clearly getting tired but we felt it was too late for a nap so we came home & did EBT at 6pm instead. AM a bit scared as that's 2hrs earlier than usual but I seem to recall a suggestion to do EBT 11hrs after WU time on no nap days, so that's what we did. He went straight to sleep & so far, no NW's. Here's hoping he sleeps in til 7am!!!
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Ok so
WU 7 (12 hr night def catch up after 2 days of 45 min naps)
Nap 1:05-3:15
BT I guess 8?
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Are you still not capping her naps hun? 2h 10mins is an awfully long nap at this age. Give 8pm BT a try but I'd be really surprised if she's tired enough with 5hrs A after that long a nap. I'll keep my FX'd for you though.
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I have to cap at a max of 2 hrs here or nights are short... that said, yesterday was 1 hr 45 and today will be a touch less as we had a crib party before nap and didn't go to sleep until 1:08pm. She was up at 710am though so I am not at all surprised!
I think I might be the first to ever wonder how to get an earlier wake time ::) DH gets up for work ~630am so DD sleeping until 7 or a bit later is going to become an issue (we have been lucky with his schedule the last week!).
But... this kid has an incredibly strong body clock and I do know that there is little I can do to really change her awake/sleep times when she is like this... yeesh.
Melissa - if you locate a manual, let me know :)
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No I'm not a capper :/ after the past week of bad naps and short nights I felt she needed it.
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I know what you mean Melissa, but at this age, not capping leads to OT in the long run... they nap too long and have a short night... that balance of a short night/long nap always gets us into OT land very quickly!
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I dunno I just feel like if she's sleeping then she needs to be. Maybe I'm wrong. Clearly I don't have the perfect situation here so what do I know. I'm hoping to get an 11 hr night tonight. We WERE doing 12 & 2 for the longest time so maybe 11 & 2 IS our downgrade? We'll see. I just really hate waking. Going to wait this out a bit and see. If it backfires I'll consider capping
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I envy you ladies that get 2hr naps. M hasnt napped for 2 hrs since September when he was 11 months old.
We seem to have hit upon his new schedule for now..
7:am WU
1:30-2:30 Nap.. He actually only sleeps 30-45 min. Depending on how long it took for him to fall asleep
7:30 BT asleep around 8:pm
So he is getting 11hr nights and around 45min nap
I'm not real happy about him going to sleep at 8pm since hubby goes to bed at 9, but there isnt much else I can do.I'll just have to deal with it and hope that when he gives up the nap his BT will be moved earlier..... Here's a question though, what happens when he wont nap until 2:00? Do I just cut his nap shorter so he'll be ready for bed at 7:30?
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Wow that's an ultra short nap. Wonder if there is some tweaking you can do to lengthen that. IMO they are nowhere near ready to give up their naps. The average sleep time for most our lo's ages in this group is 13 hrs in 24 hrs. Mama C have you tried napping him earlier? IMO those short naps are prob more in need of a schedule adjustment then being dropped. Question always is how and when ? :/
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Melissa - Mama_C's little man is very low sleep needs ;) He dropped to one nap at 8 months... if she lets him nap longer than that, he will have massive 3 hour long NW'ing with giggles and such ;)
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Melissa - Mama_C's little man is very low sleep needs He dropped to one nap at 8 months... if she lets him nap longer than that, he will have massive 3 hour long NW'ing with giggles and such
Does he give long nights? I tried to look back on old posts to see...the last few posts show short nights as well...that has to be so hard. with no nap what about pulling up the BT? my apologies if I'm touching on something that has already been brought up...I don't always get a chance to read all posts in their entirety :/ was just trying to help...like to give back when I can :) though sometimes we are like the blind leading the blind right? lol
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Actually M almost never has short nights. He has always slept 12 hour nights up until lately, now he is doing 11hour nights. His nights only got shorter because his first A has gotten longer. He has been an extremely spirited/low sleep needs boy since birth.
If 13 hours is average then I would say he is basically right on track, he used to do 12hr nights and 45 min nap which is only 15min shy of 13 hours and now he is doing 11hour nights and 30-45 min nap so anywhere from 1hr15-1hr30 short of 13 hours. Which for him is much better than I would have expected at this age. I dont see him keeping the nap as long as most LO's his age. I am betting he is nap free by the time he is 2.
Anyway, so far all is well. The new schedule seems to be working perfectly. He has been sttn again, what a relief. And last night he fell asleep right at 8:pm and we woke him at 7:00 giving him an 11 hour night. I sort of jumped the gun today and put him down a little early, dont know what I was thinking, but for today he will get a 1hr nap. Just because I dont feel like waking him, lol. I feel lazy today. Every now and then its nice to have him sleep long enough for me to sit and relax a bit.
Claire.. I wanted to say, that M is the same way on no nap days, he does great until about 4-4:30 then he becomes clearly tired and gets grumpy. I think once he is able to last until 6:00 before getting really tired, thats when we will start dropping the nap... How did O do that night? Any NW's or an EW?
Kara.. you have a great memory, I cant believe you remember that M was 8 months when he dropped to 1 nap. .. Those were the days, 1 2hr long nap a day. I was so happy. Too bad it didnt last longer than 3 months, lol
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Mama_C - O did great thanks, he STTN without a peep & woke at 6.55am this morning (12h 55 night). He's only napped an hour at nursery today too so I'm hoping he'll pull a decent length night tonight too.
WRT M & what to do when he doesn't settle til 2pm, IIWM I would still allow him his usual hour & keep to his usual BT. If he starts to resist BT because of the later nap, then & only then would I cap the nap further. I did see a post somewhere saying once your LO can happily last beyond 3pm its probably better to just shoot for EBT. But I think you are right, once you can see they can last the distance fine til 6pm ish then they are OK without the nap.
Melissa - how did your night go - hope she pulled a decent one?
Kara - you are not the only one to want an earlier schedule - I put this exact same thing on my thread yest lol! Now Oliver is waking at 7.15pm & going to bed at 8pm, its an absolute pain in the a** on work days as there isn't enough time to get ready, and I don't like him going to bed so late! So we are taking the opportunity after his no nap day & 2x 7am WU's to shift everything back a wee bit & are going to try & aim for 6.45/7am WU, 1pm nap, 7.30pm BT.
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Mama C as I said I was just looking back at the last few posts from you that showed shorter nights...to each their own...was just a theory
Clairebear- she did great thanks :) She went right out at 8 pm last night and slept to nearly 7 this morning...(even with her 2 hr nap) So today I was hoping for much of the same :) She went right to sleep at 1pm and woke at 2:45 so 1 hr 45 min nap...I'll take it :) I'm hoping hoping hoping and praying praying praying this is something she will stick to.
hope your new schedule settles into place for you :)
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Kara.. you have a great memory, I cant believe you remember that M was 8 months when he dropped to 1 nap. .. Those were the days, 1 2hr long nap a day. I was so happy. Too bad it didnt last longer than 3 months, lol
Just don't ask me what I had for dinner last night ::)
Melissa - sounds like a great night after a 2 hr nap... maybe it's just been a blip the last week or two and Ava will get back on track now! Fingers crossed for you!
Another morning just after 7am here after a 730pm BT. But, I did discover a new tooth this morning (first canine is cut through)... so this could be some of my sleepyhead baby issue! She was tired and putting her head on my shoulder at 11am today! Yeesh... so we snuggled loads and she went down easily with a bit of snuggling at 1235pm.
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Kara it could just be a blip but she seems to do this every couple of weeks. So won't be getting my hopes up. Just enjoy it for now.
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Just enjoy it for now
I am starting to say the same thing! Sometimes I think I make myself crazy trying to figure out how to replicate a day after it goes really well ::)
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How are we all today ladies?
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Yesterday:
Wake 7am
Nap 1230-230 capped
BT 725pm
Today:
Wake 655am
Nap 110-250pm capped (she napped for 5 mins @11am in the car! ARGH!)_
BT 720/730pm depending on how she is with the shorter nap
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Kara. looks like A is doing better.
M is doing much better, we seem to be back to normal for now. I guess he just needed the extension in his morning A. He is sticking to..
Wake 7am
Nap 1:30-2:30 Sleeping 1:45-2:30
BT 7:30 sleeping at 8:00
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last night asleep by 8pm last night and today
wu 7:10 am
nap 1-2:45 (1 hr45 mins woke on her own)
bt 8 pm but she wasn't too happy about it
...i worked today and picked her up rather late so we didn't get much time together so she cried for me when i put her down..i went in and sang a few songs and held her then put her back down...she is finally drifting off at 8:20 :/ hope this doesn't mess things up
how about you clairebear?
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Kara - car naps always throw a spanner in the works don't they?! Hope she settled ok at BT.
Mama_C - glad the later nap did the trick!
Melissa. Oh bless. I still think she is telling you she is UT hun. We have the same with O when he has a longer nap now - he needs a super long A time after it. If we PD at his usual 5hrs A he just isn't ready to go to sleep. Hope you didn't get a short night.
things are okish here. We are capping at 1.5hrs but he isn't falling asleep right away at BT, and his nights are also shortening to around 10.75hrs again, 11hrs absolute max. He's doing ok but he's starting to tire. I think his nap needs to go even shorter now, perhaps to 1h 15 or just 1hr. I detest waking him but its better than him being foul all day because his night was too short.
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She woke at 6:50 so 10.5 hrs not horrible. She doesn't normally play at BT. Thats very rare. Plus she had a 5 hr 20 min A to pd 5 hr 40 min A til she was asleep. I really think it was just bad timing with how late we got home. She always does better when she has more downtime before going to bed. Unfortunately we got home at 7:20. After not being Home all day she didn't have much time. I could be wrong but I guess we will see. As things progress. She has been yawning this morning so I'm hoping for a good nap and not OT.
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Got a 1 hr 30 min nap today. They are getting shorter and shorter. After a 10.5 hr night I was hoping for longer. She had to go potty when she woke. We tried before I put her down but it was a no go. :/
Should I do a slightly earlier BT?
WU 6:50 am (10.5 hr night)
6hr A
Nap 1-2:30 (1.5 hr nap)
5.5 hr A to reg BT
BT usually 8 pm
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Melissa you may have to play it by ear & do BT somewhere inbetween 7.30-8pm. I am finding now that if DS has done a 6hr A in the AM, he isn't tired enough for bed after just 5hrs A in the PM, and if he does by chance fall asleep, we are getting 10.75-11hr night.
I was thinking about you not nap capping versus me who do & maybe the way you need to look at it is this: she sleeps for as long as she needs at naptime right? so somedays she may need a long nap, some days she may only need a short one, some days she may not need a nap at all. Some days she may sleep longer at night, some days she will sleep less. But it all balances out overall. If you let her take the lead your days are always likely to have some amount of variation. Contrast this with me who caps O's nap. His wakeup time is more stable. He naps at the same time regardless of whether he's shown me he is tired b.c that's what he is used to doing. And I wake him from naps to make sure he's ready for bed because I know if I don't then he is likely to do a shorter night. But which LO is happier & better rested? Probably yours. B/c she is getting what sleep she needs rather than what sleep is permitted. Perhaps the only thing you could do to improve your situation is to let her lead you as to when she wants to nap. So maybe some days she won't nap, but perhaps the next day she will nap 2hrs & sleep fine at night. I have a friend who's LO does this & I can never fathom how she falls asleep at 7pm when she's napped from 3-5pm, but I suppose its because she balances it all out & takes it when she needs it. I am just too scared to do it with Oliver for fear he'll be up til 10pm!
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Melissa you may have to play it by ear & do BT somewhere inbetween 7.30-8pm. I am finding now that if DS has done a 6hr A in the AM, he isn't tired enough for bed after just 5hrs A in the PM, and if he does by chance fall asleep, we are getting 10.75-11hr night.
mmm I have been following along and Z has just stopped his lovely 12hr nights ;) We are having 11hr ones (if you take into account his chatting before sleeping then in the AM too)
I did EBT (just a touch) to confirm it wasnt OT - though I knew it wasnt ::) So given we are a bit like you and O Claire - in that I have to wake Z from his naps to get good nights, and our nights are good. Do you think I should cap that nap rather than push out the day? - I KNOW Z copes ok with a shorter nap now, but not so much with a loooonnng day or late BT :-\
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Sara what does his EASY look like right now & what was it before all went wonky ???
What we found worked best was to push the nap 30-45min later (so he was doing 6hrs in the AM & cap 15mins shorter (so 1h 45), keeping to the usual 5hrs A to BT. We also accepted his nights were going to be shorter, & he napped 1h 45 in the day & slept 11h 15 at night so 13 in total, which is still pretty average.
Before pushing the nap later we had tried capping the nap where it was but he still faffed around a lot at BT. The longer morning seemed to help. However, it did mean BT went a wee bit later. If you don't want that to happen I would say keep the nap where it is but be prepared for it to go shorter sooner (b/c he will be UT at BT otherwise). Its a bit of a balancing act at this age it seems!
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We are finding that Alexandra is fine with 1 hr 45 mins for a few days, but then needs a 2 hr nap for a day to keep OT at bay... nights are totally stable though!
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Before
WU 7
Nap 12.15/12.30 for 2hrs
BT 7/7.15
Then nap moved to 12.30/45 same deal ;) (On hol all over the place some naps as late as 2. He coped fine and STTN every night there)
Now he is waking at ~6.20 and chatting before his nap if I PD at 12.30 (usually out by 12.45) and chatting at BT (7.15) till closer to 7.30
Yesterday
WU 6.20 out of cot 7 (Happy to hang out)
Nap 12.30 - chatted till 12.45 woke at 2.30 (so capped really at 1.45)
BT 7.10 chatted till 7.30/35ish
STTN
WU 6.27 happy - out of cot at 7.
Thanks hun :-* - mmmm maybe I need the later nap and capped at 1.5 :-\ Im so scared of OT though
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I wouldn't cap that much Sara :)
Most days this is working for Alexandra:
Wake 7am
Nap 1245-230pm
BT 730pm (I put her down about 725 and she goes right to sleep) and STTN.
Every few days I can tell that she is getting a touch OT... so we have a 2 hr nap 1230-230pm.
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hun why don't you leave things as they are for a while? 11hr night+2hr nap is still pretty good, yk? You could probably hold off a while longer. We only pushed things out once O wasn't falling asleep til nearer to 8 and/or waking nearer to 6am. That said, it did make it more difficult to sort bc we then had EW meaning OT by naptime. So I suppose if you want to act now before it gets out of hand it doesn't hurt.
Looking at your EASY I would say you could push nap to a 1pm start & leave at 2hrs to start with. I really don't think he'd be ready for bed at 7/7.15pm though, I'd say he'd need 7.30 at the earliest, possibly nearer to 8pm. That would still only get you an 11hr night though (aiming for a 7am WU again) so really you are no better off than where you are now, its just all 30mins later on the clock IYSWIM?
So maybe capping at 1h 45 is a good place to start? do it by pushing out the start time of the nap so nap still ends at usual time & that way he should be more ready for bed at usual BT. That way you don't have to shift BT out as well.
At the end of the day its all trial & error until you find the right combo for him Try not to be too afraid of OT - sometimes a wee bit is inevitable, but& we all know these days what we need to do to help them catch up again. :-*
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But which LO is happier & better rested? Probably yours.
Well we all do what works right? she naps the same time every day too though...and her bed time is consistently 8pm...last night where she played a bit before drifting off doesn't happen often at all...her wake times are pretty consistent too for a while anyway lol I don't know if she ALWAYS gets the sleep she needs even though I don't wake her ever...sometimes her schedule isn't right and she doesn't get it cause she is OT or UT...It seems that she does really well for a while then it gets all wonky and then it gets back on track for awhile...etc...so I guess it could be because I don't cap and she doesn't always need the same amount of sleep every day but I suppose none of us do right?
thank god for this site so we get to hear what everyone else does and take what works for us :)
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I have a friend who's LO does this & I can never fathom how she falls asleep at 7pm when she's napped from 3-5pm, but I suppose its because she balances it all out & takes it when she needs it. I am just too scared to do it with Oliver for fear he'll be up til 10pm!
I KNOW M would be up till 10pm or later if he napped that late.
Sara.. Zacs schedule looks great. I wouldnt worry about him taking the extra time to fall asleep as long as he is still self settling. M takes anywhere from 30-60 minutes to go to sleep and I really dont see that I can change that unless I cap his nap REALLY short like 20-30 minutes.
BTW.. for those of you that know about M not talking, we finally got a word!! he now says CA for car and he understands what it is. :) Still no mama though :(
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Go M :) one of Zs first words was also car ;)
Hey FWIW I dont get mama much, but DH gets lots of Dada...but hten I say daddy all the time, no one says mummy :(
Anyway thanks for the input ladies. Ill leave another week as you say Claire, its not bad really...I jsut get stressed that the 11hrs will suddenly hit 10...well YKWIM ;)
Kara I have really been doing 12.45-2.30 given if I PD at 12.30 he doest drift off till then anyway. So ill stick with it for now. I know I'm greedy, but not only do I like the evenings, but Z settles better with an earlier BT.
I also just noticed his last molar has finally cut...so that could have been causing a bit of discomfort...and messy nights.
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So baby girl went right to sleep at 8pm I'm noticing that she is crying out in her sleep :/ OT??? Ugh why can't I get this right??? I don't remember this with my son :/
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I don't remember this with my son :/
hugs, they are all different hun :-*
If its ENW cry outs I would suspect OT, or discomfort. Any teeth coming?
so I guess it could be because I don't cap and she doesn't always need the same amount of sleep every day but I suppose none of us do right?
I cant remember who said this to me, but once Z was on 1 nap I was advised to take his weeks worth of sleep and look at it, rather than day to day because as you say, ust like us, they have some days/nights which may be a touch shorter than others ;)
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What is ENW? lol sorry don't know all the lingo That's a good idea about looking at the the week. Just not sure I'll figure this one out. Part of me is ready to just go with the flow and. Stopping stressing over the numbers.
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ENW = early night waking. Anything before midnight generally signals OT :)
Melissa - I found that DD started sleeping better when I stopped stressing about 10-15 mins here and there... Like you said, we don't sleep the exact same amount every day, so why expect that of these little ones??
The only time I really change anything here is if she starts short napping, resisting sleep or doing short nights and being clearly tired still.
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yea she cried out quite a few times before midnight and then seemed to simmer down a bit more. she woke at 7:30! latest morning in a quite a while...so I'm def thinking she was OT...11.5 hr night...she's been yawning even still this morning...not something she does and it's a damp dreary day here so I'm gonna stick with the 1pm nap and hope this gets her back on track
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Hi again :) Just checking in - definitely finding there's not so much time to pop on here with these decreased sleep needs/late BTs! Well I think we did have limited 'success' in M not taking so long to get to sleep with moving the nap to 1pm and capping at 1h 45mins, but after a few weeks of this and still rarely getting even as much as 10.5h nights, (e.g. 8:15pm - 6:45am at best), I've decided to take the plunge and cap at 1h 30mins :/ The only 'decent' nights (ie for us, 11h+) we've had recently are when for whatever reason he's had a shorter nap, say 1h - 1h 15mins. So I'm figuring that 1h 30mins can't be all that bad, keeping the A time to BT the same as what it was when he had a 1h45 nap - since it was taking him so long to get to sleep then anyway. So tonight he still seemed to be in discomfort at BT (finally starting to actually cut these canines!) but seemed more tired than usual and got to sleep around 8:10pm... Will just have to see what the night brings!
I think I've got myself a bit stuck on the idea that he has to have 13h sleep overall - given that he's never ever had the 'average' amount of sleep for his age, even as a newborn the most we could ever hope for was 14h on a rare good day! But his A times have tended to be on the shorter side, so he's always been late dropping naps. So anyway I was thinking that maybe a 1.5h nap plus an 11h(+?) night would actually be pretty reasonable for him now, and maybe that's all he needs? But he still definitely needs the longer nights or he's just not happy in the morning :(
Hope you all see some progress soon... Mama_C - great news on the talking :) I know what it's like to worry about that, i've been doing my fair share (when not worrying about sleep!), but just in the last couple of weeks M really seems to be getting the hang of it - still just single words, but enough to stop my worrying, for now! And I'll second Sara - 'car' is a good word :)
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Trimbler. I think that sounds like a good plan. We've already capped at 1.5hrs & are getting 11hr nights at absolute best but more typically 10.5-10.75hrs. DS's nap & BT were getting sooo late it was causing a problem on workdays as I have to wake him at 7am, so we've shifted him back to a 1pm nap & 7.30pm BT & he's now waking at around 6.20pm. He's still not been settling til 7.45pm, even with the 1.5hr nap, so as from today we are capping at 1h 15 & are hoping this will increase his night back up to 11hrs. I am also a bit fixated on the 13hrs sleep 'average'. Up until a few weeks ago that's what he was having but all of a sudden we're averaging 12hrs. I suppose it must be the norm until the nap is done. We too always have the best night's sleep when he has a shorter nap, and he even had his first no nap day at the weekend & pulled a 13hr night! Good luck - hope it goes ok!
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So I stuck with 1pm BT even though we had the later wu of 7:30 rather than her new norm of 7:00 because she had been yawning and I'm convinced she was OT last night, hence the night cry outs before midnight...it worked out just fine...I seemed to have been right because she not only went right out at 1pm but slept til 3:20!!! so she clearly needed it...we'll see how BT goes though as that will be a shorter A to bed...I plan on sticking with 8pm BT....if she's not ready then I guess she'll play a bit before drifting off, but if she IS ready she'll be right where she needs to be :)
I'm pretty sure I'm just going to try to stick to the schedule and let her do with it as she needs..no more stressing...of course if I find she is playing for long periods of times on a consistent basis when I put her down I will adjust things but for now I think although some days differ than others, days like today tell me we are on the right road at the moment...maybe I'm wrong but I guess we will see
I'm glad to see you are all finding what works for you...we moms on here I think know our babes like nobody else :) imagine there are moms that don't even know what an A time is?! LOL so many go with the flow and their kids fall asleep standing up or in their highchair..whenever I see that I kind of think how awful they don't have a clue what their kid needs...I love to see so many moms on here desperate to get it just right so our babies get all that they need...it's amazing! :)
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Sounds like a great plan Melissa!
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I think I've got myself a bit stuck on the idea that he has to have 13h sleep overall
HUGS - I'm like this with 13.5 hours. Why??? I have no idea - is not like Z was ever HSN, or even avge when he was younger ::) :-*
I try to tell myself to not worry about the day to day...but think of the overall week, or a 3 day period ;) Its easy to talk myself into being OT when he is clearly not. I think this is because he is so sensitive and I know he needs his sleep.
Great one Melissa! :)
SO yesterday I PD for nap at 12.35 and he chatted till 12.50 or so, then I woke at 12.35 with BT at 7.10 and he STTN with a chat at 5.00 (to his cat and cow ::) ) then woke for the day at 7 :) I think he does need that slightly later nap, and then shorter A to BT. The shorter A doesnt seem to worry him...I wonder if he is okay with the short A as long as his overall A time during the day is right KWIM?
Anywho....that last molar is cutting so it could just be that!!!
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I wonder if he is okay with the short A as long as his overall A time during the day is right KWIM?
YUP! Same here :)
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I wonder if he is okay with the short A as long as his overall A time during the day is right KWIM?
Being Z, I would guess he'll be OK with the shorter A before bed. M on the other hand is not so the later nap made his BT later.
Melissa, it sounds like you are on the right track and have a good plan in place.
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it felt like it but then she played in her crib until 8:45 lol oh well she was fine with it I'm ok with it too...she took her sleep when she needed it today so I guess that sometimes means a later BT
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argh so Z is totally UT for his nap. I know it, he knows it but im still PD too early and he takes it ::) He is showing all UT signs though.
Tomorrow im going for a 1pm nap for 1hr45mins and BT of 7 (given tonight is ok) wish me luck!
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good luck Sara!
I was wrong about ava playing and being UT or so I think anyway because 5 mins after I posted she was just drifting off she stood up crying...she was pooping :/ she always goes on the potty so she never goes in her diaper and was uncomfortable but also in pain I think...it was very hard and BIG :( We tried to go potty a few times today and she'd push then say no...not sure why but lately her bm's have been difficult for her...she does eat quite a bit of yogurt..maybe too much? going to have to look at her diet and see if I can do something to help her...no good having it affecting her sleep too poor thing...wonder how this will go now...not having fallen asleep until 9:15 or so after finishing on the potty getting a clean diaper and i rocked and sang to her a bit to get her sleepy again....blah not sure what to expect now
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it was very hard and BIG
hugs...interesting you say this. Zs BM have been a tocuh on the hard side and I think its to do with me cutting his bottle back to 100mls at lunch. I am trying to compensate with water but he also has his fair share of yogurt and bread too :-\
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I cut out her nap time milk some time ago but not sure it had much of an effect. I def think its the yogurt but she eats a good amount if fruit daily. I give her 1/4 juice and the rest water in the a.m. I usually fill it once more with just water by the end of the day. Wonder if she needs more??? The juice I use is fruitables it's a mix if fruit and veggies. My son use to get the runs if he drank too much of it so I'm surprised she's having this issue. I really want to help her. It's affecting her even WANTING to go potty now :/
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oh poor boo :( Actually Z eats a good amount of fruit too, though is rubbish with veges at the moment :-\
Were also teething here so I would have thought if anything he would be runnier than usual ::)
Do you have probiotics? They could help - though were on those too ::)
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Are you ladies medicating for teething?? That can cause hard poops too...
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M eats more fruit than yogurt so we havent had a problem in awhile with hard poops. He eats at least a cup of blueberries, 2 oranges and a cup of strawberries every day.
M is falling asleep at exactly 8pm every night now after being put down at 7:30. I really want to cut his nap shorter to make BT earlier but I'm scared. I like my break mid-day even if it is short and I hate to do anything that will make him grumpy.
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