Low sleep needs or wrong routine?

[LovelyLilyandJack]

Funnily enough,  I've just started a thread about unsettled nights and whether some babies just do that more cos either I'm remembering it wrong or jack is more restless at night than lily ever was. So I'm not sure about the quiet nws.  Multiple nws are generally OT though I think. 

As for getting over OT, the general advice is to reduce A times by 15 minutes or so, unless there's an UT/OT loop going on,  which I don't think there is here cos you're getting decent naps.  But if you reduce your A's by 15 minutes you're going to go back to where you were a couple of days ago,  and you were also getting nws then.

Weaver / Tink - any ideas?

[weaver]

It can a while for babies to adjust to new sleep routines.  From this thread, I can see how much progress you have made (immense! well done mama!), so things have changed a lot for him.  If he's quiet, and puttingh himself back to sleep, then I'd wait a night or two and see how things develop.  I wouldn't rush to fix it if he's not creating a fuss at night. Tracy generally advised to hang back and work out what the problem was, and make a plan, before intervening. 

Other possibilites:

Waking every three hours sounds more like a food than an OT thing.  Do you think he might be hungry?   Growth spurt? Bear in mind, EBF babies can go from no NFs to two or three and back again to none, when they're having a GS. If it is a GS, then, feeding should get him back to sleep and the wakings should end after a week or two.

I'd keep a record and see if he's waking regularly at the same time, in which case you may be dealing with habitual waking. 

I would also go have a look at the Night Wakings board and see if there's anything there that rings a bell with you.

HTH.

[BusterB]

Thanks weaver - plenty to think about there! 

I wouldn't rush to fix it if he's not creating a fuss at night. Tracy generally advised to hang back and work out what the problem was, and make a plan, before intervening.

So things were a bit different last night..... he had 2 extended wakings - both were over an hour and he was very upset and needed a lot of help to get back to sleep 

He also woke twice in the hour after bed but resettled quickly and twice to feed later in the night... all in all quite a few NWs, so I do think we were dealing with an overtired little man.

Have reduced his A ever so slightly today and looks like our day will be 12 hours - so will see what that does to our night. Hopefully he wont be too UT with the shorter day - but I realise it is a risk.

Other possibilites:

Waking every three hours sounds more like a food than an OT thing.  Do you think he might be hungry?   Growth spurt? Bear in mind, EBF babies can go from no NFs to two or three and back again to none, when they're having a GS. If it is a GS, then, feeding should get him back to sleep and the wakings should end after a week or two.

I'd keep a record and see if he's waking regularly at the same time, in which case you may be dealing with habitual waking. 

The regular wakings have always been an issue - he has pretty much always woken 2-3 times a night to eat. I started by presuming it was GS related and I waited for them to stop after both the 3 and 4 month GS but they didn't and I originally found this forum as I was trying to work out if his frequent wakings were hunger or habitual.

I am still none the wiser after 2 months of trying to work it out though. I have recorded his sleep patterns every night for 4 months and the timings go through phases of being similar, but there is never a really strong enough pattern to suggest habitual - however I do think he needs the boob to get himself to sleep if he's not tired enough to do it/too OT to do it himself.

He has also done the odd night here and there of 5-9 hours straight, but they are very rare. I have been working up to trying some night weaning, but want to wait for 6 month GS to be out of the way.

[BusterB]

So last night was quite interesting - but i'm not 100% sure what it is telling me!

I cut his A times ever so slightly yesterday - he has also been eating breakfast + lunch so brilliantly, we also gave him some porridge at 6pm, which is the first time he has had food in the evening;

A: 3hr 15
Nap 1: 1hr 30

A: 3hr 20
Nap 2: 1 hr

A: 3 hr
BT @ 7:30pm

He then slept really soundly for 2 hrs exactly - literally to the minute.

He then woke up and really cried for almost 2 hours - he was ok when picked up, but the minute you went near the crib or put him down, he was seriously wailing By the end of this rather soul destroying session I could tell he was hungry and so once he was calm (but obviously not about to sleep) I fed him.

He fed and then didn't wake until after 5 am - so he slept for 6 hours! I fed him again and then he slept until 7:15am this morning 

So I'm not sure what the 2 hours crying was about- my hubby wondered if it was to do with having the food late on? But then he cried similarly for an hour the previous night too without having had dinner - so i'm more inclined to think it is routine/developmental/teething? Although i'm truly stumped as to which? I guess if it is either of the latter it'll suddenly stop.... if it is routine, I guess I need to work out what A's etc to continue with? (any thoughts here much appreciated!)

I then think that more likely is the 6 hour stint might have been having a fuller tummy and he has been hungry previously when waking to eat as you suggested weaver. I'm hoping this is a sign that, if we can lose the 2 hours crying early on in the night, the later food might carry him through a bit longer. Does that seem likely?

[TB9]

DD2 does the same thing when she doesnt have enough A before bed.  I would try increasing A before bed by 15-20min.  Hispm nap was 1hr, technically considered a good nap, so 3hrs A is probably too short if he is doing 3hr15/20min the rest of the day.

[BusterB]

I have spent the last couple of weeks working on our routine etc and wanted to come back with an update as I got such useful advice on this forum, when I was feeling a bit desperate!

My little boy is now 6.5 months and we seem to be on a good even keel at the moment and although things aren't 100% consistent, they are much improved. On the advice of people here we upped his A time and are now working between minimum of 3:15hr and up to 3:30hr - with the last A before bed definitely being closer to 3hr30. This is definitely now the right sort of A for him and has helped with his sleep - so thanks for the advice!

The other key factors that made a BIG difference for us in case anyone else is having similar issues -

• having solids in the evening
• moving him to his own room
• he also extended his time between feeds in the day due to such great naps - which I presume means he is hungrier and taking more

With the combination of these things we have had a few nights where my son has done 10-11 hours without feeding at all, although there is always still at least 1 NW, but it doesn't take too long to resettle him. There have then been nights with 1 or 2 feeds (because I didn't feel he would resettle without them!) but the overall sleep total has then been closer to 11 hours, which is a big improvement on the 9.5hr we were getting when I first came here.

He is seriously teething at the moment so I think some NWs are related to that, but to be honest they push his wake up time a bit later and that works out better for our overall routine really. If he slept straight through we'd be back to early wakings, so part of me doesn't mind too much 

I'm just feeling more confident that he is definitely not hungry and finding it easier to persevere with resettling him, where I would have just fed him previously, which I think perpetuated the problem.

One thing that I have noticed though is that often it takes exactly 40-45 mins to resettle him and I did wonder if that was telling me something? OT/UT? or is it just a coincidence?

Once again, thanks for all the help I got here - it really was appreciated.

[LovelyLilyandJack]

Great!  Lovely to see such a good update I've noticed jack always takes multiples of sleep cycles to settle as well, if it helps. So unless he goes straight back to sleep it's always 45 minutes, or 1.5hrs, or just over 2hrs.  I read somewhere else (a sleep specialist not on BW) that they'd found the same. Lily was also the same.  So it might just be one of those things.

Hope things continue to improve

[TB9]

Great update