Tempted to Stop.

[elliesmama]

I posted a little while back about my dd who keeps coming off my breast like she's done eating but then starts crying.  Well, it's STILL happening and I'm getting really frustrated and emotionally drained.  I'm super tempted to stop breastfeeding and really need some encouragement to keep going.  I feel like my body just must not be doing it right or something. 

The situation is that Ellie (4mos) will eat well for about 5-7 min on a side, which I know is a totally respectable time at this age, and then pull off.  When I go to burp her before the other side she starts whining so, okay, she's still hungry and we go right to the next side.  She eats well for about 5 min or so, lets go and then starts whining and crying again. Then I'll give it to her again, because she's opening her mouth for it and trying to get at it, so I give it to her and then she sucks weakly and then lets go again.  So I put the boob away and she starts screaming.  Then I try to walk around or give her a pacifier (thinking that she must be done eating since she keeps coming off and maybe she just needs a change of scenery or to suck on something) and usually that quiets her down after 2-5min of tears.  But sometimes I keep offering her more because it seems like she wants it since she opens her mouth for it.  I know that the 15-20 min time she eats well is fine for this age. I know that she's getting more interested in the world around her and is more distracted these days.  But what is so hard for me is that I feel like she should be happy and satisfied when she's done eating and she's not and I feel like I'm doing something wrong.  And then when I just accept the crying and do something else besides the booby, I feel like a terrible mother for stopping when she might be still hungry.  I'm doing everything I know to do, I'm trying so hard.  I'm super tempted to stop bf because I feel so drained and so unsure that it really is the best thing for her. 

She's so little (4mos and 11lbs) and she's been growing well but last week I had her weighed and she'd only gained 2oz in 2wks.  Doctor wasn't concerned at all, but with the current feeding situation, it certainly didn't help my confidence level.  Sorry for the long email...but I need some help.

Pertinent information for you: she's on a 4hour EASY and has been for about 2 weeks.  Takes somewhat good naps--usually wakes at the 45 min mark and then I can usually get her back to sleep.  Sleeps 7pm-7am w/ df at 10-10:30.

[zed]

My only question to you is how are you trying to burp her??? My fist could only burp while propped on my shoulder.  My second needed to be burped sitting on my lap.  It does seem to make a difference if there is pressure on the stomach.  The air seems to have a more difficult time coming up with out the pressure.  Another idea that sometimes works is to burp for a minute and then slowly lift baby high in the air by holding under her arm pits.  This seems to lengthen the body to help the air escape.  On last way that has worked for me to get gas out, while burbing, use the heal of your had and start just above babies bottom and firmly press your hand up her back.  For some reason this seems to chase the air bubbles out as well. 

I have sometimes done the last technique very lightly on my second sons tummy and that worked a few times when nothing else would.  Sometimes you can feel the air moving up and out of your LO body, very weird feeling. 

Another thing you might want to do is ask your Dr. if there is something you can use for reflux.  I have been very lucky to not have had that with my kids but hear it can make life miserable.

Beyond gas or reflux, I have no clue as to what might be the answer.  You would have a better idea than me since you can hear the cry, hungry or pain.  My guess is that you are hearing a pain cry.

If you end up giving BF up in the end don't be to hard on yourself.  Know that you did it for as long as you could and you did the best that you could.  BFing for any length of time is better than not at all, you've already gone 4 months and so your LO already has had a good start.

Oh, if you think your baby is still hungry after a feed ask your Dr. to have your milk analyzed.  My Grandmother is one of many people I know who had lots of milk but there was little value in it.   This might be something you want to do anyways since you said your baby had little weight gain.  At least you would know for sure and would give you piece of mind.

Lots of Luck to you

[dbj]

Hi Laurie,

((Hugs))

Your situation sounds very similar to what was happening with me and my DD several months ago.  She is also a very small baby and was going through the bob on bob off, crying at the breast thing for quite awhile.  I actually had a post that covered most of the same things:

https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=96336.msg928926#msg928926

It's kind of long, so you don't have to read it.  The main gist of it is that we had this really unfortunate period of fussiness at the breast which had me really discouraged and stressed out and was accompanied by a period of low weight gain by DD (which like you, I worried about more than the doctor).  Anyway, the reason I'm telling you all this is that it can get better.  Things improved dramatically, weight gain evened out.  It's now several months later and I am still breastfeeding and it's going really well.

I know it can be really hard, but I hope it all works out for you.

[First Time Mom]

It sounds like you're frustrated but hang in there, don't throw in the towel unless you're 100% sure you want to stop because once you do you can't start up again. You've done a great job bfing for this long and it will get easier- this phase will pass!

Did she do this prior or did it start when you changed to 4 hour feeds? Does she cry for a feed before the 4 hour mark? Did you gradually switch to 4 hours or did you change it all in one day? If it's supply you're concerned with you could feed more frequently for some of the feeds. When we switched to 4 hour feeds my dd could not go the full 4 hours in the late afternoon, we had to feed at 3, we also did a df.

Try not to worry about the weight, especially since your doctor said everything was fine. I know, easier said than done. My dd was always a very slow gainer and always at the bottom 10% of the chart (heck, she was even off the chart sometimes) and I always worried to the point of quitting bfing but I frequently went to a bfing clinic (and on this site) and it gave me the encouragement to continue. I was also a "daily wet diaper counter", it helped put my mind to ease knowing she was getting enough.

All los hit a point where they don't show interest in bfing because they are so distracted in the world around them, this is a particularly challenging time but things do fall back into place and they get back on track.

[lisi's mum]

Hi Laurie, I was wondering how you guys were getting along!

I want to second Marian, don't give up just yet if it's through frustration - these things pass and can get worked out. The first thing is to go through exactly what's happening - I have copied and pasted this from Kellymom as it's a good concise list:

Here are some of the problem-solving steps I go through when my baby is fussy at the breast or a mother asks me why her baby is fussing during nursing:

How old is baby? Most babies go through growth spurts during the first few days at home and around 7-10 days, 2-3 weeks, 4-6 weeks, 3 months, 4 months, 6 months, 9 months, etc. Many babies are fussy during growth spurts.

Is baby working on anything new developmentally? Babies who are starting to notice the world around them can be notoriously distractible. Any kind of new developmental step that baby is working on can affect nursing temporarily, whether it be fussy nursing behavior or simply more frequent nursing.

When is baby fussing? To figure out the cause it's helpful to pay attention to when the fussy behavior happens, both during the nursing session and during the day.

If baby is fussy right when your milk is letting down (or immediately after), there's a good chance that the fussy nursing is related to a fast let-down. If baby is fussy before let-down, or a few minutes into nursing (and a while after let-down), then baby may be impatient for the fast flow of milk that comes with let-down. Fussing at the end of a nursing session (or what seems to be the end) may mean that baby needs to burp, or is ready to finish nursing, or just wants to suck (and doesn't want to deal with a new let-down at this point), or wants to continue nursing on the other side or with a faster flow of milk.

If the fussy behavior is mainly in the mornings, it might be due to a faster than usual let-down if baby has just had a longer sleep period and mom's breasts are fuller than usual. If baby is fussier during evening nursings, it may be due to the normal fussy time that most babies have during the evening. Although most babies don't react to foods that mom eats, some do. If you eat a particular food at about the same time each day (or most days) and baby has a regular time where she fusses during nursing, try not eating that food for a week or two to see if things improve.

Does fussing occur on both sides equally or only on one side? Most moms have a faster let-down and/or a more abundant milk supply on one side than the other, so if your baby fusses more on one side, it may be due to these differences.

What else is going on with baby? Is she sick or teething? Is something new or different going on in her environment? Has she started solids or is she trying a new food? Is she exhibiting other symptoms besides the fussy nursing?

Below are discussions of some of the different things that can lead to fussy nursing behavior. Keep in mind that the problem may also be a combination of several things.



Not wanting to step on toes, but you really shouldn't worry about the quality of your breastmilk unless you're on a severly restricted diet (less than 1000 cals), severly anemic or such like - it's extremely unlikely that your milk isn't enough quality wise for Ellie!

[Samuel's mum]

You've had good advice so far. Some HUGS from me.
I guess the obvious comment is that this problem might not go away if you stop breastfeeding (e.g. if it was related to gas, reflux, overtiredness, distractedness) and then you'll be in the same position but having ended breastfeeding.
If you are on EASY - how soon do you feed after she has woken up? Could she still be waking up from her nap?

I would also ask whether this has got worse since you've moved to 4hr EASY. It's not unusual for some milk supplies to take a dip with the move to 4hr EASY - it really depends on your individual milk supply. However she's sleeping well at night and if it was a supply problem you'd expect to see some hunger wakings. I expect it's not related to your supply at all.

Do you have anyone IRL who can offer face-to-face breastfeeding support like a lactation consultant or breastfeeding counsellor?

[Photogmomma]

Stick in there, it will get better! My guy still does that! Sometimes I have to stop and burp him and he gets mega upset when I do that but I stop and burp and put him back on again and repeat repeat repeat! Sometimes I get a burp from him sometimes I dont but even if she is getting a few sucks in between some of those stops she'll still be getting some ya know? It can be rough but just be persistent and she'll get it!

[elliesmama]

Thanks so much ladies.  You've given me a lot to think about.  I do feel a little better about the whole thing this morning--a good night's rest helps put everything in perspective.  Last night was really hard.  She screamed--and I mean screamed--for at least 10-15 minutes after feeding.  I was so worried I called the on-call nurse at the doctor's office.  She suggested that it could be something I ate or gas build-up but that if she kept crying I should take her to the emergency room.  Luckily, Ellie burped huge a few times, spit up a few times and then when I took her outside for a little walk she calmed down and fell asleep.  So maybe the answer to yesterday's blow-ups (she had two) are gas and overtiredness?  The times she is fussy eating are really the only times she cries during the day, unless she's tired. 
 

If you are on EASY - how soon do you feed after she has woken up? Could she still be waking up from her nap?

I would also ask whether this has got worse since you've moved to 4hr EASY. It's not unusual for some milk supplies to take a dip with the move to 4hr EASY - it really depends on your individual milk supply. However she's sleeping well at night and if it was a supply problem you'd expect to see some hunger wakings. I expect it's not related to your supply at all.

We switched to the 4 hour EASY at 3.5 mos.  We still feed at the 3.5 and sometimes 3 hr mark in the afternoons.  Some evenings she still wants a cluster feeding, too, so our routine isn't totally set in stone yet.  As far as it getting worse with the 4hr EASY, yesterday was worse than it's ever been.  Usually it's more fussy than it is all out screaming, and a pacifier and getting up from the chair takes care of it.  Yesterday it was all out screaming, though--for a long time!  I do feel like she's overtired because we're still ironing out her naps and she rarely sleeps the 2hrs straight without waking up. But would that make her scream like that?  I don't think so...

Yeah, I wondered about supply or quality of milk, but if she's still going at least 3.5 hrs between feeds and sleeping through the night w/ no feeds after the df, I figured my supply was fine.  And, her weight gain has only slowed the past couple weeks.  Before her four month appt she'd been gaining about 1pound or more per month.  Except of course the little voice inside my head that tells me that she's crying because she's still hungry and when she stops crying it's because she's just accepting that she won't get anymore food.   But babies don't do that, do they?

So if gas and/or overtiredness is the issue, why is it that she still opens her mouth for the breast when she comes off?  Or that when she comes off she still kind of does the sucking thing with her mouth but then comes back off right when I put her back on?  She doesn't do this in the morning, and she doesn't do it at the df.  She really only does it during the daytime feedings. 

Thanks dbj, for the link.  I did read your post and it was helpful to me.  It's so good to know that this is somewhat normal and it's not that her intestines are twisted or something terrible like that.

[Samuel's mum]

So if gas and/or overtiredness is the issue, why is it that she still opens her mouth for the breast when she comes off?  Or that when she comes off she still kind of does the sucking thing with her mouth but then comes back off right when I put her back on?

This is EXACTLY what does happen when a baby is looking for the breast for comfort when they have gas or overtiredness issues. If it's gas they are seeking comfort and relief but then they realize taking more milk in isn't going to do it. if it's overtiredness again they seek the comfort but don't have the oomph to feed/suck properly (and a baby who is used to EASY hasn't got the habit others babies have of sleepily and drowsily nibbling at the breast).

I'm so sorry yesterday was tough. You may want to keep a food diary for yourself if that's a possibility and see if you notice any links. Did she seem unwell in any way or teething?

If she wasn't getting enough milk and was really hungry after a feed she wouldn't 'give up' and think 'hey ho' I'll just wait for the next 3 hours then - oh boy. You'd see hunger signs constantly before the 3.5 hrs and she'd practically jump at you for the next feed (and you'd see more night wakings I'm sure).

If excess gas is a problem have you ever given gas drops before a feed? Or have a think about your positioning. Check her head is slightly higher than her lower body or maybe try a different position.

[elliesmama]

Today was much better in that she didn't scream until the last feed of the night (not the df).  And when she did she calmed down after taking a little jaunt into the cool fall air.  I know that she was tired...when I put her in her crib she turned over and fell right asleep immediately.  So I'm thinking that this ongoing issue really is gas (she burped a bunch) and overtiredness (maybe it just builds up throughout the day).  I am trying to keep her head more elevated at feeds, and I'm trying different burping positions too.  A food diary is a great idea, too. I think if I could pinpoint something out of the ordinary it would be the "Awesome Blossom" (fried onion) that I ate at Chili's last night (my eating habits revealed  )..but I only ate that about 4 hours before the feed where she was so upset and I didn't have very much of it.  And she screamed at her morning feeding before that too.  Does it get into the milk that fast?  How many hours does it take to filter through to the milk? 

[Samuel's mum]

It could get into your milk in that time for sure. Everyone is different but usually from 3-4 hours onwards you could see a reaction. It sounds like it might be a combination of factors here. But a lot of gas might be partly a food reaction issue if that's a possibility - it's one of the symptoms of a food intolerance. What are her poos like?

[elliesmama]

Really?  That quick?  In my pre-delivery breastfeeding class the teacher said it took 12 hours to make it in to the milk.  Hmm.  I guess that's wrong.  Ellie's poos are fewer than they used to be (1-2 big ones per day).  Pumpkin colored.  Somewhat stronger smelling than they used to be...but still kind of like a weird buttered popcorn smell.  Pretty liquidy for the most part but not totally.  I haven't noticed much that's different about them.   

[EllenS]

From previous discussion, it does sound more like a gas issue than a supply issue, but I would ask...have you gotten your period back yet?  I got mine back at 4 months and had a dip in supply the week before it showed up, and also the next 1 or 2 months.  Have not noticed a dip lately.  Taking calcium+magnesium supplements helped.

[elliesmama]

Just an update: Ellie is feeding great.  I feel like my question has finally been answered.  She's just super tired and that's how she expresses herself!  Screaming at the top of her lungs!!!    The day that she was so upset was also a day that I had to wake her up early...so...now I've learned my lesson.

[lisi's mum]