EASY going sooo wonky for 9 month old - please help!!!

[vadensmommy]

Hey there Emma
As far as the wind down goes - it can be really really hard for us when dd is OT, and, the more you tell me, the more it sounds like she really is OT by bedtime.  Sooooo, it is hard to advise anything here, other than taking it reallly really really really slow.  You might have to sit with her till she is just about to pass out and stay with her to help her be calm if she is OT.  We've been out of town this weekend, and had my BIL's wedding saturday.  DD was WAYYY Overstimulated when we got home - a 300 person wedding reception will do that to a baby I guess  and it took a really terribly long time to get her in the bed - about 45min, and it usually takes me 15-20min max, and that is with a feeding as well.  I didn't really do pd because with her already OT/OS it just seems to be worse.  I just sat with her in my lap for a really long time in the dark and sang, then eventually just held her, and listened to her breathing.  I can't really tell if she was asleep or not - I don't think so, but when her breathing slowed down and got more regular and relaxed I put her down.  Don't know if that will help any, sorry 

For the pm nap when you go pick up dd1, are you walking to the school?  She is in her stroller, I take it?  Could you pick her up in a car so she would nap in the carseat?  Or have somebody drop off DD1 at your home so she could take the pm nap at home?  I'm sure you've probably thought of all these, as I have been in your shoes sort of myself with a sitter who has too many babies, and doesn't get dd to nap when it is appropriate - she has sort of had to grow into the sitter's schedule, and that has been frustrating many many many times, but sitters are in short supply in our area, and I have to work at least part time. 

As far as getting things figured out before you go back to work - it will probably all change by then because she'll be almost a year old by then right?  So she may even be down to 1 longer late am nap and a catnap when you get home or something like that.

So back to the current routine.  Could you do something like this:
Start pushing her am nap later by 10-15min every few days, and let her sleep as long as she likes, and then go for a later catnap, so she won't be quite as tired before bed?  So start working on an even later am nap -you've really already done that since she is having about a 3hr45min A time, but keep pushing it a bit very very gradually?  That is the only other thing I can come up with atm. 

Good luck, and again, I hope you find some things that will work for your entire family and all the routines that go along with that   Keep me posted!

[bethanys mummy]

Its so really nice of you to spend this time trying to help us figure it out. Hope you enjoyed the wedding. OS aside its nice to be able to take them to things like that isn't it. I have lovely shots of DD1 "disco dancing" at a wedding anniversary part when she was 18 months

Still sitting on the UT / OT fence at the moment. Def tired today, thats what comes of being a little tinker last night yet still getting up earlier this am I suppose... So A times were 3hr, 40 then only 3 hours as she was still tired. Def still tired tonight, still took a while to get to sleep (mixture of shouting and mantraing) but not real crying which she often does and not for as long...so I suppose a bit better. So then you start to think maybe overall shes UT and perhaps being more tired helps... but I change my mind as often as I change nappies...

I guess I need to pick a view and of course stick with it for a few days, just like I have done for her naps (which in the end has worked). I was planning on doing what you suggested ie shorter 2nd nap but closer to bed time with earlier night to help, will keep you posted. Also trying to wind her down more (singing xmas carols of course) but dont want to be a prop and she tends to relax then spring back to life as I make my way down the stairs....

Its just this little thing called Xmas which might get in the way (OS!!!! staying and grandparents!!!!), oh well

Thanks for all the ideas re the pm nap. I actually dont pick up from school every day, just 2 days a week. But I kind of want to do it for DD1 as I will be back at work soon so will have less opportunity, and I cant get anyone to cover at home. Sadly I am an expert on trying many ways of keeping bethany asleep during the school run (car seat, walking round playground, setting off 1/2 hour early so she gets a nap), failing most of the time, which is why I was shocked she stayed asleep whilst xmas shopping..... You could argue that I could therefore have a short am nap for 5 days of the week but I would rather try to stick with the same thing every day... so back to trying to keep the am nap and get rid of the pm one

I do hope she is on one long nap + cat nap when I go back to work. IF she naps to routine at nursery / grandparents then she could always have her catnap in the car when she is picked up, here's hoping. Its just because I dont have a routine thats ever "worked" yet  - because for so many months she was up and down all night, then she had a succession of colds etc. Even if something just seems to work ish for a week or two, I can work and adapt from there!!!!

Thanks again, heres hoping

[vadensmommy]

Will hope with you! 

but I change my mind as often as I change nappies...

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA  I love it - sounds very much like myself!!!

Yeah, consistency is best, so I hope you get to something that works.  As far as the wind down goes - can you do the wind down closer to where her cot is?  You mentioned having to walk down the stairs - that would definitely wire dd.  My rocking chair is right next to her crib, so when I put her down, I only have to take a very few steps.  And that prolonged transition from in your arms to where she sleeps may start to feel like the "March of Death" or something iykwim?  So if everything was done in her room or wherever her crib is that might help the wind down some.  Good luck!  Keep me posted!!

[bethanys mummy]

Sorry, mislead you a bit with the stairs bit

I mean she gets all relaxed, I put her down with her lovie, she snuggles it, I leave the room and walk down the stairs... then I hear her start to get excited again... is your lo nearly asleep when you put her down, again just worried about the prop bit, been there done that

Interested to know your routine if you fancy sharing

Night night!!

[vadensmommy]

AAAAaaaah, I see-when YOU walk down the stairs she starts to get chatty   She can't see you going down the stairs huh?  You shut the door?

Not sure if you are wanting our daily routine or wind down routine, but I'll mention both just in case 

Our wind down routine has evolved as mentioned before (wind down is in a couple posts back) although I forgot to mention turning on her sound machine.  I am a super picky sleeper, and dd spent the first 7wks of life in a bassinet in our room.  I have a REALLY loud air purifier in there (= jet engine), mostly for noise purposes.  I've always needed a fan or some form of white noise in order to be able to sleep well.  When I started sleep training I noticed dd would take MUCH better naps in our bedroom in the bassinet (up until then I was laying her down in the pak-n-play in the living room and she'd take a 10 or 20min nap, and then wake up) with the purifier on.  So when we moved her to the nursery I bought a nifty sound machine from Radio Shack (in the states) that had 12 sounds including a white noise sound, a nifty light that slowly changes colors and a little fan that you can put essential oils on and use as a smell goods thing (we never use that or the light).  So that's probably way more info than you needed, but I am addicted to the noise, and whenever we go out of town the sound machine comes with us, and I sleep SO much better than I would if we didn't have it Oh, and the best part - it can plug into the wall OR be battery operated - life saver when the power goes out - I sleep so much better if I can hear it.  SLEEP NAZI is my middle name!! 

Our daily routine is never ideal because of the sitter situation, but a "perfect" day would look something like this for us now:
A 6:30ish
E 7 6oz bottle (I haven't swapped solids and formula yet - it's easier for us to do a bottle first thing before going to the sitter)
A 6:30-10 breakfast solids here
S 10-11 I wake her here if she is still sleeping

E 11:00 6oz
A 11-2:30ish lunch solids here
E 2:15ish this is our "split" bottle-would typically be due at 3, but she was waking early hungry for it
S 2:30ish-4:30ish-this is usually a 1.5-2hr nap

E 4:30ish this is just finishing up whatever was left from the 2:15 bottle
A 4:30-7 supper at 5pm -this is typically her shortest A time right now - dunno why, but over the months this is sometimes the longest, and sometimes the shortest - just depends on the month I guess?
S 7 for the night, and she usually sleeps through to 6:30/7 the next morning.  She will wake 45min after I've put her down for the night if she is OT, or she may wake up early as well, but that has gotten better as her first nap time has gotten later, esp. if the sitter is more consistent with at least getting her a 45min am nap.

Hope something in there is what you were interested in

[bethanys mummy]

Thanks for the routine bit, interesting about her A times changing in terms of which is shortest / longest. Bethany had a short 1st A time for ages, (perhaps its was due to her restless nights), so its wierd things may be changing, but we carry on regardless!!

Thanks also about the wind down, just wondered if you did anything different at night. Perhaps I could wind her down even more, just worried about becoming the prop. Will add it to the list of things to try

About the white noise... have thought about it, used to play a lullaby tape (know all those songs !!!), was useful to block out sound of DD1 but I think she started to ignore it! Also aware that, they will do some things when she goes to day care, but cant do everything so trying to stick with wind downs they can replicate.

Must go, someone is emptying my handbag.....

Thanks again so much, will keep you posted

E x

[vadensmommy]

Yeah, the sitter part can make wind down tricky, because it is best if it can be replicated, although our sitter's wind down is basically -plop dd into carseat, stick in dark room and ignore.  She won't nap in another part of the house nearer the other babies, so this is just what works for the sitter.  Luckily it doesn't screw up our routines or her ability to self soothe here at home.  Keep me posted on what you find that helps y'all!

[deckchariot]

I'm just marking my spot....I've jumped over here from the naps post to try to consolidate the posts and hopefully not confuse  you Emma!  You're getting some great advice.

[bethanys mummy]

Thanks again to all

Trying to stick with a nap after 3.40+ A time, same A time again then 45 nap and early bedtime for a few days to see if anything improves. Also going to work on bedtime wind down for a while

Only thing I can get from the logs so far is:

- major meltdown before bed = early wake up the next day = very tired next day = fits in 2 naps reasonably well = goes down at bed time ok ish the following day
- if she goes down well for the nap then she self extends, if she is restless then she usually wakes and I have to coax her back to sleep

This means?....

Michelle, thanks for the advice on the other page, dont knwo if you had time to read the above but I will struggle to keep the pm not the am nap

Getting so sick of the poor thing crying at bed time

[bethanys mummy]

Do you think I ought to aim for sleepy at bedtime. May sound obvious to you ladies but its this "switching down a few gears" which is my problem, she still seems so wired. I know I keep saying this but just dont want to become the prop.

Do you stay with your lo's until they are calm / staring??? Its that fine line point which I worry about

E x

[deckchariot]

Emma - she may actually seem wired because she's tired.  My dd actually revs up as she gets tired.  The whole idea of the winddown is to be a transition from playing to sleeping.  So she should get very sleepy as you go through your wind down.  As long as she's not asleep when you put her in her bed, you should be fine.  Since it sounds like she's having a really hard time going down at night, I would say the wind down is really key for her.  What are you doing at the moment?

[bethanys mummy]

Thanks again for replying, 

OK - for her naps I take her upstairs, read a story, give her her lovie, walk her a bit on my shoulder and sing a bit. When I lay her down if she does not start mantraing then I lay my hand on her until she does, then I step back and can usually leave the room

For her bedtime - she has her bath and changed into sleepsuit. Bath is with DD1 but no real difference if its not. Then into her room (in the dark) with me for a bf - about 15 mins. If I feel she is going to sleep I take her off me. Then give her her lovie, wrap in blanket, say night night and leave. Often she is quite calm, but would not call it sleepy -  but then gets revved up again as I leave the room and go downstairs

Am I being too unrealistic about whether she can go to sleep from "quite calm". Should I calm her to "sleepy". These may sound quite mad points but there have been times when she has gone to sleep for naps and bed from "quite calm" - am I just being crazy to expect that

When she mantras (the humming type) she often has her eyes shut - I know she is not actually asleep as she is mantraing but feel like I am going down the prop route if I am there when her eyes are actually shut

Know what you mean about wired can  = OT. Have def been some cases of this. But I guess when I say wired I mean not sleepy, ie awake!!

Am I being bonkers?? and missing the obvious, and just being too worried about being the prop, wanting her to do it all by herself

[deckchariot]

I would say if her cry is the mantra cry, go ahead and leave the room.  She is trying to put herself to sleep, and intervention from you will not help things.  If her cry escalates and is no longer her mantra cry, that's when you should step in, and probably with pu/pd at that point.  Your wind down sounds fine.  At her age, she really can put herself to sleep.  My dd is awake when I put her down, and once she's in the crib, I'm out of the room.  Sometimes she mantras, sometimes she talks to herself, sometimes she just goes right off.  I do not go in unless it's the "I need you cry".  But then, I go upstairs slowly, because she has been known to cry out in her sleep, but it's just once, so that's how I know not to go in.

Your wind down looks fine to me.  How do you know she's not sleepy?  I've found my dd doesn't really show sleepy cues anymore.  For instance, tonight, jammies, bf while dh reads, then she was finished and laid in my lap babbling and waving at dh while he read.  She seemed very happy and not sleepy, but after the sleep sack, prayers, and song, I put her in her crib and walked out, and not a peep since, she went right to sleep. 

I'd say keep your wind down routine, once you put her in the crib, walk out.  Do not go back in unless it's the "I need you" cry, and then try to settle her in the crib, if that doesn't work, then I think it's time for pu/pd.  Does that help?

[vadensmommy]

Hey Emma!
My wind down used to be pretty quick, and I could lay dd down and walk away and she'd chat to herself, and then go to sleep.  After a few illness, and a LOT more mobility (crawling and pulling up) dd needs to be very very very relaxed before I lay her down in order to go off to sleep.  Otherwise, there is a LOT of pd involved, and it can take a lot longer.  She'll still go to sleep, but if I rush the wind down, there is a lot more crying and a lot more pd - not very fun.

I wouldn't worry a whole whole lot about becoming her prop, as long as you aren't rocking/feeding/holding her to sleep, and then setting her in the crib asleep, I think you'll be ok.  I rock dd till she is very still, and breathing has calmed down considerably.  I'm pretty sure I'm not rocking her to sleep because she opens her eyes and wiggles a bit to get into her comfy position when I lay her down in the crib - kinda hard to know exactly because the lights are off when we are doing wind down, but she does the same for naps, and I know then she is not asleep.  Are you worried about being a prop because you have been for her before??  I think (this may not be exactly correct, but personal thoughts here ) that the wind down is a really great tool in order to help teach your lo independent sleep, so a lot of intervention during the wind down is not a bad thing in my book, as long as your lo isn't falling asleep DURING the wind down.  And it sounds like you are very consistent in making sure you are putting her down awake - but don't be afraid of helping her with the wind down until she is pretty drowsy - that has helped me a lot.  Just my thoughts on the matter   Once she is really good at self-soothing, you'll be able to do less wind down and be able to walk out.  I've just found, mobility increases her need to calm before sleeps because she's basically overstimulating herself with all the activity, if that makes sense?

DD also never shows tired cues until we actually start the wind down - she'll start yawning, and rubbing her eyes and nestling her head against my shoulder once the lights are off and we are rocking, but not while she is playing.  If she DOESN'T show these signs during out wind down, then I'm pretty sure she isn't tired, and we'll do a bit more A time - this was how I figured out her A times back during Thanksgiving holiday break.  The only tired cues I get now, are when I am BW'ing on the computer, and dd quits playing and exploring the living room and keeps pulling up on me trying to play with the computer - she usually wants my attention - but could be for other reasons - hunger or cold as well. 

Take care, and keep us posted!!

[bethanys mummy]

Hi

think I may be in the same place as Vaden'smummy (sorry dont know your name) as in bethany needs to be calm / drousy to go off, otherwise she may be tired, but she wont be switiching off. Neither of my children have been the type to fall asleep in the highchair or on the floor, must be something I do to them!!!

I will try allowing her to feed a little more before putting her down to see how it goes, its a fine line with these little tinkers isn't it. Trying to keep her calm enough so she relaxes herself further but then goes to sleep alone....

Just to answer your questions - been there a little with the prop thing. When we were doing PUPD to get her to sleep during the night we would hold our hand on her, was borderline prop.... and re the knowing if she is sleepy, I think its the difference between being tired and switiching off. For example, like all mums i am a bit tired.... but when I come out of darkened room after feeding her I am yawning non stop because I have wound down myself and feel sleepy!!

Thanks again for taking the time to reply... will let you know how things go

E x