Mult NW's - Learned hunger

[vadensmommy]

So Vaden is typically the best little sleeper on the block.  She's been BWed since about 8 weeks, and was sleeping through (12hrs + DF) since 9wks with the exception of the short blips that happen - GS, illness, etc. 

Other background- She doesn't use a pacifier - never has.  Sleeps with a lovey (frog) and goes to sleep independently for all sleeps (well she used to  ).  For the last month or so she has started waking at night to drink loads of milk.  She's off the bottle -uses a sippy exclusively, but has never been a big eater.  Right at 12mo she switched to just one nap.  I think this was a tad premature, but she is at a sitter's from 7:30- 3:30.  So the sitter has moved her to one nap, but she tends to take at least a 2hr nap, sometimes 3.  She is not walking, but doesn't seem to be close yet either, only has two bottom teeth, but doesn't seem to be teething either.

So her daytimes typically look like this:
7 A - gets a sippy of milk here just to tide her until she gets to the sitter and has breakfast
A 7-1pm Lunch in here with the sitter, usually another sippy of milk here (btwn 6-7oz)
S 1-3 or 3:30 - ideally this would be from  noon to 2 or 2:30, which is what it is when we're at home on the weekends.  The sitter is not organized, and rarely does what I ask -this has been a long standing issue, but I am really stuck with her until an opening comes up at a local daycare, and nap time will be from noon -2:30 at daycare.

E 3:30-usually a sippy of milk here on the way home from the sitters.  Am considering doing away with this sippy, and just doing some water and then snack when we get home to help up the daytime calories
5pm-supper
7 bedtime - usually a sippy of milk right before bed.

She *used* to sleep through, but now seems to be habitually waking at 10:15pm, and 1:30ish,.  She'll EW right around 5:30am, cries for a while, but will put herself back to sleep.  The first two wakings are another matter entirely.  She will cry and cry and cry until she is fed.  She's been doing this, looking back for probably close to a month, but had an ear infection in the middle of everything, and after getting antibiotics, was sleeping through.  As soon as the antibiotics stopped, she started the waking again.  Have taken her back to the doc who said her ears look fine, and gave us a clean bill of health.

Thursday night I tried to just give her water, and she wanted nothing to do with it.  I did a bunch of different things, most of which were AP, but we were exhausted, and wanted sleep.  I did some wi/wo she was just hysterical, and got to where once we picked her up, she would scream if we got near her crib (so not like her).  So between 10:15pm and 3am (she was awake the whole time) we tried so many different things, until I got her in the high chair, fed her 4oz of yogurt and 4oz of applesauce.  Went back into the nursery, laid her down, and she instantly went to sleep independently!!!  Rotten thing!  So she is definitely hungry, and I don't quite know how to handle this.

Here are my ideas so far, but want to get some feedback as well
wi/wo is going to drive me bonkers.  DH is not one (nor am I for that matter) to listen to her cry.  So I don't think stopping the night feedings cold turkey is going to be something we will stick with.  So I am considering

1) w2s - I've never used it before, and not quite sure how it would be different, or would even be effective for a baby this age.  Since the 10:15 waking is something I can practically set my watch to, I thought about doing it around 9:45ish, and poke her until she stirs and see what happens.
2) Gradually reduce the # of oz she's getting of milk, and bring the milk feed earlier by 30min or so every couple of nights.  This is essentially how I weaned the DF. 

So I would love any suggestions on other ways to maybe handle this and help get V eating during the day instead of the night!!!!

[DebLillian]

Oh, Vadensmommy, I am so sorry that you are going through this!  Losing sleep can make everything so frustrating!!  I like your 2nd idea (reducing ounces).  This is how we weaned Lillian from night feedings.  W2S never worked for us... but I have heard that it can. 

I guess if you think she is hungry than go in and feed her immediately, quickly and quietly and put her back in bed so that she gets the milk she needs but not the cuddle time.  Also, I would try to give her more small amounts of milk during the day as well as have her eat her solids before her milk and make sure she's getting enough protein in her diet.

Hope that helps... keep me posted on the progress.

[Mama2boys]

Hi Vaden's mom,

Sorry you are going through this, I am just about recovering. and the ladies on this board have been very helpful.

I am also giving you a link to my thread see if it makes sense. Our situation was way worse as we had never had a single nights decent sleep since DS was born, so DS was proerply addicted to NW and feed, and still uses a pacifier. He is close to your daughters age, but has 12 teeth, so teething has been constant since he was 3 months old and has been walking around so loads of challenges, but I am on my way to recovery.

Let me know if you have any more questions, am in a rush at present but will take some more time later and write more details to you.

reducing dependency on feed by slowly diluting the feed worked, as everyone will say consistency was key, PD, GW, WI/Wo all mixed together in a warped way seems to work.

Mukta's thread

[vadensmommy]

thanks girls!
Hate knowing that anybody else has to struggle with this too, but at the same time, glad to know that I am not alone.

So deb, I need suggestions for protein.  V doesn't eat meat very well, although will sometimes eat a chicken strip (organic that I grill), but only when it is fresh from the grill or oven, and if it gets cold, I think it gets too difficult to chew at that point, and she quits eating.  Sometimes can get salmon into her.  Before she started the spoon refusal I could sneak in blitzed chicken in different dishes like quick chicken couscous from one of anabel karmel's books.  And I am really no good with what (other than meat) has lots of protein in it.  She will eat peanut butter, and I've just discovered she is a fan of refried beans - and therefor bean burritos (and mommy loves the leftovers!!!).  So other protein ideas??

Mukta - I will check out your post.  I did see it before I started my own, but it's size was a bit daunting to me, so didn't get into it yet.  But I will  

As the two of you suggested, I am gradually weaning these night time feeds.  Last night she drank a full 9oz of milk at bedtime, after eating a HUGE supper.  Although supper was really the only meal she ate anything solid - between church and family easter dinner, she just couldn't sit still enough to get anything into her. 

I woke her up at 9:30 and gave her 5oz of milk.  She slept until about 5:30 where I heard her cry (another habitual waking, but again, doesn't usually need my intervention) and then she really was awake and crying at 6:15.  I listened until 6:30 when I was sufficiently satisfied she wasn't going to go back to sleep, and so I took a sippy of milk to her, changed her diaper (she's got the beginnings of what could be a nasty diaper rash) and left her in the crib, lights still out with her sippy.  She drank about half of it, and I had to wake her up at 7:30.  Bad mommy left the sippy with her, which I have NEVER done before (well, at least leaving the lights off), but I had to get in the shower to get ready for work.

So all in all, last night was a billion times better than her waking at 10:15, 1:30, and 5:30 as well.  So tonight I am going to do more of the same and offer 5oz at 9:30, and probably the same tomorrow, and then the next night I'll offer 4oz at 9, and see what happens.  I am basically going to take it down 1oz and bring it 30min earlier every 3 days - essentially how I dropped the DF.  If the early morning wakings continue, I'll probably do the same with them, but I am going to try and tackle the 10ish feeding first and see what happens to the early am one as we go along.  Gosh, it just feels good to have a sort of plan of attack.

I am also offering like 3 suppers a day.  She usually takes a sippy of milk on the way home.  I am limiting that, and offering a meal when we get home around 3:30 or so, and tonight I will probably offer another around 5:30, and again right before bed around 6:45 and see if that helps any.

Any other thoughts would of course be greatly appreciated!!

[DebLillian]

Glad to hear that last night was better.

I am very lucky with Lillian's eating habits... she loves to eat and will try just about anything.  Here are some of our more unusual protein foods:
1.  I put nutritional yeast in her cereal every morning (and sometimes in other foods as well).  It's sometimes also called brewers yeast and can be found at natural food stores
2.  Lillian is a big fan of hummus and other bean dips.  Hummus is especially good b/c it has Tahini in it (which is just pureed sesame seeds).  Tahini can also be snuck into other foods.
3.  Lillian will eat beans by themselves or prepared with onions, peppers and other things.
4.  Lentil soup either by itself or thickened with egg and flour to make lentil burgers.
5.  Hard boiled egg yolks snuck into other things she likes (rice cereal, applesauce, etc)
6.  Lillian fortunately really likes meat (I know you said that Vaden isn't a big fan)

Good luck and keep us posted on the progress.

[vadensmommy]

I usually make my own hummus, and I don't put tahini in it, mainly because I don't have any usually, and my southern living recipe for "perfect hummus" didn't call for tahini!!   

Lentil burgers - tell me more.  I have a package of dried lentils that are sitting in the pantry that have been there for a few months, because I bought them before V started spoon refusal, and never got around to making the recipe I had bought them for.

Last night wasn't much better
I fed her like 10oz of milk right before bed, and this was after offing her 3 bouts of solid foods:
tortellini filled with cheese and a few bites of banana at 4
5:30 ate a container of yogurt
6:45 ate a container of applesauce - I think I waited too late here, I think she really was hungrier, but too tired to eat anything else

Still drank 5oz at 9:30, then woke at 1:43am - and I think this is habitual too.  I am not going to do anything about it tonight, but if she wakes at the same time tonight, I'll start trying to wean this feed too.  She probably only took 4oz here.  Cried out at 3:30 - random but went back to sleep independently, then cried out at 5:30, the same, then awake for the morning around 6:15- diaper had completely soaked her and the bed - no wonder she wouldn't go back to sleep!

She evidently ate really well for the sitter, but really didn't drink much milk this morning before going, and the sitter gave her a sippy of milk when she woke up from her nap around 2:30.  I haven't given her anymore, but she did eat some cheese and fruit for her "snack" and I think we're about to go eat supper somewhere, and I'll see what else I can get her to eat
Will keep everybody posted!

[* Paula *]

Hugs hun, I am so sorry you are going through such a rough time.

I agree with PP.  Vaden seems to be getting a lot of milk during the day, and this could be what is filling her up during the day.  At this age Thomas was on 2 milk feeds, one in the morning and one in the evening before bed, and he had solids throughout the day.  I would definitely consider cutting down the milk during the day, as it is filling her up too much, and she is probably eating less solids.

At 12 months our routine looked a little something like this.

7:00 - Milk and breakfast
9:00 - Snack of toast or something like that
11:30ish - Lunch
2:30 - Yogurt and some fruit
4:30 - Dinner
6:45 - Milk and bed

If Vaden really likes her milk during the day, you could try cutting the amount down to half so that she is not taking in so much and see if she will end up eating more.

Hugs hun, I know how bad it is having multiple night wakings.

Please keep us posted on how you get on.

[vadensmommy]

Thanks Paula 
Actually that is pretty close to what today looked like
V didn't drink a whole lot of milk upon waking.  Maybe 3oz or so - hard to tell in sippy cups that don't have measurements!!
So the sitter didn't give her any more milk till 2:30, and she drank a whole cup.  Ate a fairly decent supper - in two sittings   Had a string cheese stick, and some fruit, and a piece or two of ham, then we went to McDonalds so DH and I could eat a quick supper before he had a meeting, and she ate quite a few bites of hamburger (bad mommy!!!  it's her first one, and she played on the playland for the first time too - wish I'd had my camera) as well as a 4oz container of yogurt.

Unfortunately, she only took an hour nap at the sitters, so she basically passed out at 6:15 when I was trying to get her to take her night time sippy of milk.  I'll just offer it to her at 9:30 and go from there.  I'm keeping my fingers crossed that she won't wake at 1:43am, but if she does, I'll start addressing that tomorrow.  Gracious I don't want to hear that alarm go off in the middle of the night  But if it means SHE won't be waking me up in the middle of the night, I'm gonna try it!!!

Thanks for all your support ladies!  I'd be one lost mommy without y'all!

[Chix0r]

Sorry you're having such a tough time with this.  I second the protein idea.  Audrey loves chicken nuggets (cut up) and diced ham.  Before I started her on that, I'd run pieces of meat (whatever I had as leftovers) through the blender and add that to her pureed veggies.  She never liked the meat from the baby food jars.  Chicken and rice is another favorite, though she demands she eats it with her hands.  She loves eating rice with her hands. 

Another idea is that when I notice Audrey hasn't eaten much that day, I'll give her some snacks after dinner... hoping to tank her up before bed. 

[vadensmommy]

Hey Chix!
That's what I've been trying to do -multiple suppers-in hopes of filling that belly.  It makes it hard to keep up with how much she's actually eaten, because it is some here, some there, etc.  She's been pooping more so I know that she's eating a lot!  Still having problems with the protein part of things.  She will eat some deli meat ham, but isn't her favorite.  She ate chicken nuggets from the sitter today, but I guess they are the "nugget shaped parts and pieces" type nuggets that really don't have great nutritional value.  She did eat part of my McD's hamburger tonight, so I might have to try some meatloaf, because she seems to like ketchup!!  Another mom suggested low sodium meat substitute/tofu type stuffs.  Just haven't gotten back to the grocery store to check that out better. 

I think tonight we're gonna have some OT issues from the short nap, with a cumulative effect of the really long night Fri night where she was hungry but I didn't feed her, Saturday was a late bedtime because we were out of town, then Easter - late nap, late bedtime, early wake up this morning covered in pee.  I put her down tonight at 6:15, and she woke up at 7:45, 8:45, and drank half her sippy of milk at both wakings - the one she didn't have because she passed out before bedtime without drinking much, and then I just did her "dream feed" at 9:45.  She took all of that as well.  Keep my fingers crossed for the rest of the night!!

[DebLillian]

Lillian loves hamburgers  but she has only had homemade ones b/c of her allergies.

Speaking of, when I gave you the list of what we do I forgot that not everyone has to avoid dairy/soy... you have a whole world out there of tofu stuff!  About the Lentil burgers.  I just took a very simple lentil soup recipe (carrot, onion, celery sauted in oil, add 4c broth 2c water 2c lentil and cook on low for 45 min) and used leftovers to create burgers by adding a bit of flour a couple eggs and rice (when I had it) and fried them in oil on the stovetop.

[* Paula *]

Wow it really sounds like she is going through a growth spurt.  Come to think of it I remember Thomas going through a similar phase at around that age.  He would eat everything and anything in site.  I would just keep on offering her snacky things inbetween meals and see how she does.

Hugs hun.

[vadensmommy]

How is lillian by the way??  You don't see the specialist till Tues right?  Will keep y'all in our prayers, I know that has to be so stressful!  I hope they figure things out!!!

Thanks for the lentil recipe.  Would love to find the time to make it!!!!!  I did actually buy some low sodium soy hot dogs today at wally-world at the suggestion of my first post related to this whole eating and sleeping issue that I posted in toddler eating section.  She would touch them.  I think she *might* have put a piece to her lips, but don't think it ever actually made it into her mouth.  She is so bad!  If anything is new, she won't even touch it recently.  Will keep trying!

Things on our end seem to be a little better.  Paula - you're right it does sound like a GS, but it has been going on for sooooooo long.  I seem to remember a post very similar to this that I posted a couple of months back, but it cleared up all on its own in about 10 days.  This has been going on for a month or more!!  So I think I really made what probably started as a GS much worse by continuing to offer loaaaadds of milk at night when she needed more solids during the day instead.

Night before last, V woke up a bunch before the DF, but then slept till 3:45, where she got just an ounce or two of milk mixed with water, and only actually drank probably 2oz of the watered down stuff.  Then last night has been the best of all so far.  She fought going to sleep like the devil, but once down, slept till the DF which was earlier - 9:15, and was 4oz with some water as well.  Then she slept till 5ish where I heard her crying, but put herself back to sleep, and she woke up for the morning around 6:15.  Still way earlier than ideal, but much much much much better than eating all night!!!

The sitter has really worked on getting her to up her daytime solid amounts.  Who knows what kind of crap that woman is feeding her, but I don't really care atm as long as she's full!!!!  So I am going to continue on with the weaning of the night feeding/re-instituted DF until I get down to just a few oz, and then probably just drop it alltogether, and hopefully that will make life a bit smoother.  V is taking a lot less milk in the daytime as well, and I am only offering her like 4oz when she wakes up, so that seems to be making her hungrier throughout the day.

Thanks for all your support ladies!!!  You are invaluable to me!!  I'll keep you posted!!!

[* Paula *]

I am pleased that things are getting better hun.

Please keep us posted.

[vadensmommy]

Hey girls!
Have been going through withdrawal without my BW!! 

Just to update.
Nights are hit and miss.  V has been sleeping better at night, and I pretty much weaned the first night feed, and the second one around 3am she dropped on her own, and night before last she slept till 6am, and was awake for the day (about an hour+ too early) with no NW, and no night feedings, but then last night she woke at 11pm hungry again.  So I just made it really watered down and fed her. 

She's also been really clingy at bedtime, even though she is obviously very tired, to the point that I am a tad worried about OT, because she's been having the EW's (was up at 6:30 this morning).  We were playing this afternoon, and I was tossing her around, and discovered that her top right tooth is about to break through.  This would make tooth #3.  One mom on another post was talking about her not yet 1yo getting his molars.  I don't think V will have those till she's like 4yrs old at this rate.  So she got some orajel and a dose of tylenol, and that seemed to help tonight.  Will try to remember to give her a little pain meds tomorrow before her night time milk so that hopefully they''ll have time to kick in before it is time to sleep.  Come to think of it, the night she slept all night with no feeding, she got pain meds then too because she was hard to put down, so that my have a lot to do with all this.  We'll see how she does tonight!