Really got to break this habit - please help!!

[bethanys mummy]

Thanks for your support. The WI WO sounds really tough. We have tried a few things in the morning to get bethany back to sleep (of course no luck) so I know about the tears thing! But I am jealous of the 11 hours at night - are you still doing W2S??? Hope you enjoyed the beach!!

Ok so this is where we are at. For the last 3 days we have managed to get 2 naps into her totally about 2.5 hours, first nap about 3.5 hours after she woke up. She has varied as to what she has done each day (one day it was 40 + 1,50, another 1,50 + 40, yesterday 1.5 + 1) despite everyones best efforts. She is still consistently doing 10 hours at night, almost to the minute. She is sleeping through on the whole. She still seems tired overall but better than she was as she fights bedtime less, so the taking an hour to go to sleep has changed to about 20 mins. But I dont seem to fall into that camp whereby her going to bed earlier means she wakes at the same time??? So I am stuck?? Now we have a 14 hr day, starting at aboue 6.30am with naps as above and a 10 hour night

So what next:

- anyone got any advice re A times etc? although I do have this annoying restriction of the school run at 3.30 plus her first nap is (usually!) the best so need to try to make this the longest. DO I need to aim for even more than the 2.5 hours??
- I do really hear your point about the earlier bedtime, could pitch for 7.30 for a few days. But how do I get there if I am on 2 naps with A times etc?? An I am SERIOUSLY worried that she will then do 10 hours because I really could not cope with 5.30 get up (sorry I knwo this is reality for you)as I am having to work until midnight at present and it could really effect dd1 with her needing to go to school
- should I try w2s again........? if so when etc??


So many questions sorry, should I start a new post!!??

Going back to bed now................ yawn

E x

[claires mum]

Hi Emma...to answer your questions:

1)  I only did W2S for a few nights...it's only a shortterm solution (3 days I think)

2)  Didn't get to the beach..it's pouring with rain and about to flood!

3)  2.5 hours of naps during the day is probably more than enough... at this age, the trend tends to be 1 nap anywhere from 20 - 45 minutes and one nap for 1 - 1.5 hours.  So I think that if you try and increase this anymore you might find that the nights get shorter.

4)  I know you don't want to try the early night...I've just been working with another Mum who also didn't want to do this.  She finally got round to it last night and it worked (for her).  No promises here..but I really think it's worth a shot.  If it doesn't work then you can go back to what you are doing now.

5)  Starting a new post...you can do that of course...but if you want someone else to have a look at all this info ... then maybe send a personal email to Aly Mac or Rob1Lu2 or Deb-in-Oz to review this post.  Why type all this info again!! 

6)  A times are typically 3.5 - 4.5 hours...some more during the transition. 

7)  Transition strategies.  Here they are:

*  Move am nap early in the day (2 hours A time) and limit to 45 mins.  If pm nap resistance still occurs, limit to 30 mins.  If pm nap resistance still occurs, limit to 20 mins.  Move pm nap to a logical time in the day that allows for 3.5 hours/4 hours of A time from am nap AND from pm nap to bedtime.  Something like this: 

7.00 am wake
9.00 - 9.45 am nap
1.45 - 3.15 pm nap
7.15 pm bedtime

*  if am nap is the longest nap...then gradually push this out by 15 minutes every 5 days or so...and keep a 20 min afternoon catnap.  The idea is that the am nap is eventually pushed out to middayish...and the catnap is dropped.  Leaving you with one nap.

I really feel for you..working to midnight and having a 4 year old.  I don't have those issues to deal with and I think my lot is hard!!!  Hang in there and let me know what you decide to do.

BTW...Claire went to bed 30 minutes later than normal last night and still woke up at 5.30am....so only had 10.5 hours.  I just have to get her to bed at 6.30 or earlier to get those 11 hours in. 

[bethanys mummy]

Thanks so much for all your support, really do appreciate the time and effort you have put into helping, wish Bethany could read!!! (and obey!) The stuff about the A times etc is really useful, the am nap is our longest nap because its always been her most consistent and to have a long pm nap clashes with the school pick up. I guess that what she has done recently (ie 1.5 hours in the am and 1 hour in the pm) is this, but because her day is so long her pm nap has to be long until we sort something out with the night sleep. .............. which brings me to

YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!

W2S worked for us last night!!! Basically her day yesterday was the same as the one before (1.5 nap) followed by a 1 hour nap and sleep about 8.30. As she has had a few days to catch up with being OT now, plus having 2 identical days I thought it was as good a time as any to try. And it (nearly) worked. We did it after 9 hours (as she usually wakes after 10) and she went back to sleep for another 2.5 hours!! And she also woke up happy and played in her cot which is just as nice as she has been such a miserable thing first thing recently

I am so happy and the family is so rested. Its nice just to enjoy this moment

But.... and its rather a big one. W2S did not go entirely to plan. DH went in and tried to stir her, she woke up too much and was a nightmare and would not go back to sleep so I bf her to calm her down and then put her back in her cot awake... not something that was entirely to plan (!!) but could not cope with it all going pear shaped. She was therefore up about 25 mins and then slept the other 2.5 hours so 11.5 hours in total

So we need to carry on with W2S but get the level of stirring right..... which is where I was about 6 weeks ago before the illnesses and holidays when I had 2 times of success and a few of her waking up and a few of her not waking up enough. So its my turn to try tonight and we will see how it goes. The times it worked for us I gently rolled her from her front to her side and patted her so she stayed asleep, but sometimes I did this again and it really did not work!!  ???What level of stirring did you do? All tips appreciated!!!

Byee!!!!!!! and thanks again

E x

[claires mum]

That's so good to hear Emma.  I do the same as you...just roll Claire over and leave quickly so she doesn't see me.  If she does wake, then I stay and rest my hand on her until she falls back asleep.  It usually works.  Glad to hear that the OTness is disappearing....that will definitely help.

[bethanys mummy]

Happy again today. W2S after 9 hours and then got 11 hours out of her. My turn to do W2S last night (and I suspect every night as DH has a 100% failure rate..!). Rubbing her tummy did nothing so I stirred her and she really jolted, panic! but I had a hand on her ready so then held, rubbed her until she settled. she did jolt once more but resettled herself so then I left. She then slept for another 2 hours

Trying not to think about the fact that she looks like she has another cold coming and has MMR jab on Friday....

How are things for you?

Emma

[LisaM]

Hello

Just been reading through your posts and thought I would write to say we have a similiar problem with dd2 - EW's, sometimes NW's (mostly I think when teething or OT sets in..again!). 

Emma - I know the frustrations you have because we have problems following advice on here because of dd1's schedule for playgroup and preschool sessions.  These mean that I cannot slowly push back nap times, instead I have to try to fit them at a time that means she may be able to get a fairly decent nap (if trying for 1 nap that day) or have to wake up early from 1st nap (she also prefers an am nap - pm ones have always been a problem) so that she hopefully will take a second one.

She is now 19 months old and I definitely would have thought would be on 1 nap by now but its not going great in that direction as she wakes so early in the am.  This can be 4.30ish when OT and mostly 5-5.30 when getting a little better.  Like your lo she mostly only takes 10hrs or so at night.  We do go with early bedtimes just to get her to have more sleep so if in bed at 6 she will hopefully sleep til 5am - however, I feel that if we never get to later bedtimes we will never get to later wake ups so will struggle to get on to one nap.  It is a vicious circle.  She seems to be an early bird that doesn't adjust if the bedtime is later - you would think that if she can do 11 hrs 6pm-5am she could do 7pm-6am but this has rarely happened!!

Anyway, am glad you had some success with W2S I have always been too scared to try this as she is such a light sleeper but will see how things go with you and maybe it will be worth a try.  I feel we need to start getting things changed if we can as dd1 will start school in September and will need her sleep - she has started waking around 5.30 herself now because she keeps getting woken up and I don't want her to get into that routine for good.  I keep thinking Sept is ages away and surely things will be better by then but we ahve had EW ever since she slept through so I don't think it will go away on its own.

Lots of luck to you and to claires mum - its a tough time - hopefully will only last for a short while x

[RACHPEM]

Sorry to hijack, but I am going through exactly the same with my lo.  The 5am starts are killing me.  We were doing a long am nap with a catnap in the pm but as her mornings are getting earlier have decided to swap naps around today and see how we get on with that and hopefully push her am nap later etc.
Fingers crossed.
Rachael

[bethanys mummy]

Hi ladies

misery loves company hey!!!

I hope I am not jinxing myself by saying we are on an up.... but hopefully from what you can read from myself and Claires Mum the strategy on her earlier post of

(a) getting some extra nap time in through 2 naps for a while to reduce OT
(b) earlier bedtimes again to reduce OT (although I have not done this yet as she seemed to do 9.5-10 hours whatever her bed time but I hope to be able to use this in future) and then finally (ie once OT levels reduced, in my case I could see this as Bethany was going down easier for naps and bedtime)

(c) W2S an hour before the usual wake up time to break the habit ( I hope I hope I hope)

has helped reduce the EW's. But its a rocky rocky road and I know we will be on it for a while yet!! I really just hope to get myself a lo who will compensate for a poor nap day by having a good nights sleep!! Silly me

We can cheerlead each other on from here if you want!

E x

[claires mum]

Hi everyone and welcome !!!

Emma....GREAT to hear that it's working for you.  We're doing well (there's a curse to posting positive news you know!!!) and we have finally managed an eleven+ hour night from 7.15pm to 6.30am today.  So the later wakeups can happen everyone....took a month and I'm not sure if it will stick or not.  Claire is slowly learning to fall asleep by herself...it's going to be a long road as I've always been in the room when she goes to sleep.  So I probably need to do a more gradual removal approach.  I gave some advice to a Mum last week and she managed successful independent sleep training after just 2 days.  Pity I can't apply the same advice to my own situation.  Not happy Jan!

[bethanys mummy]

You do have allot to deal with, but sounds as though you are getting there. Had just over 11 hours ourselves yesterday again (8.15-7.25) and good settling at bedtime. I know you are only supposed to do W2S for a few days, but will continue it to the weekend as cant cope with the alternative!! And then the immunisations will be there to deal with...!

Everyone keep going!!!

E x

[LisaM]

Am really glad things are going in the right direction for you both.  Still considering W2S but not sure where to gauge it really as she does vary in wake up times quite a bit.  Also scared she will really wake up and not go back off (I know we are used to 4am wakes but don't want to actually cause one!).

DD woke today at 5 but although the time is 'normal' for us she only had about 9.5 hrs of sleep cos had 2 nap day yesterday and in bed at 7.10 but awake til about 7.25 so total sleep not good.  Anyway cos today was dd1's playgroup I have to drop her off at 9 and then pick up at 11.45 its a really difficult nap day.  5am wake - didn't think I could make her stay up til 12ish but when I get her to nap after drop off (normally asleep by 9.30) then I wake her at 10.15ish - we have real problems with the pm nap because she seems to hate taking her nap later in the afternoon so was too scared to try that............so, I put her to bed REALLY early 7.30am!!!  But it did work, she slept 7.40-8.40 (perfect timing to get to playgroup) and has gone down 4 hrs later for her 2nd nap.  I know its not an ideal thing to have such an early nap as I've read that this can make EW worse cos they think no point in more sleep when they wake as they know they have a nap coming up but needs must - and with DD1's schedule and Grace's different wake times I have to lie in bed each morning just wondering what will be the best thing to try that day!!!!!  Keeps me on my toes I suppose.  Anyway, the best thing was that I took GRace out to a music and dance thing and she had a good time so I was really pleased we didn't have to miss it while she was sleeping.  Lovely sunny day so off to the park this pm so a good day....lets hope for more hrs sleep tonight for us all! 
x

[bethanys mummy]

Lisa , its sooo hard with the 2 isn't it. You feel guilty as the older one wakes the lo from their nap, you feel guilty keeping them quiet, you feel guilty if the younger one wakes the other one too early because they dont sleep allot at night, you feel guilty that your lo's sleeps are based messed around by your older ones needs then guilty that your older child cant go to the park or something as the younger one needs their nap..... family life I guess, but isn't it great when you see them interact - Bethany was chasing Caitlyn down the road earlier today both with their pushchairs racing along, lovely

The only things I can suggest I am sure you have thought of eg naps in the pushchair. out of necessity with having an older child Bethany will sleep in the pushchair, but it used to only be for short naps. She now sometimes will do longer naps in there and I remember Caitlyn doing the same about the same age. To me when they are OT and you cant create the ideal routine its about getting sleep in whichever way you can -  trying to have at least one nap in the cot, to keep the independent sleep thing going, but otherwise the pushchair or car seat will do!! And if an earlier bedtime does work for you then you can get past the OT this way as well. Perhaps if you get past the OT spell you may see a nighttime length of sleep pattern developing which can then be changed by W2S??? Although of course I am no expert!!!!

Take care all

E x

[claires mum]

Keep it up Bethany...she's doing so well!  Glad to hear W2S is working for her and yes, I would keep doing it too...one day you'll sleep through and forget and hopefully she will too!

LisaM...I may have missed it but have you tried getting Grace to have just 1 nap a day for a few days in a row.  She might be ready for it now? 

[DebLillian]

Just thought I'd jump in here... we're going through the same EWs.  Lillian sleeps 10-10.5hrs a night and gets up anywhere from 4am to 5:30am and usually refuses to resettle.  We had success with w2s but then we had lots of company and she got OT and we were back to many NWs... ugh.  Now that the company is gone hopefully we can get rid of the NWs and get back to just dealing with the EW.

I've considered the early bedtime but I've never gotten the courage to put her in bed before 6:30pm.  I'm just so afraid we'll be up even earlier.

Anyway, I've enjoyed reading your stories and I will be checking in.
Deb

[claires mum]

Deb...give the early bedtime a go..particularly now that she's OT.  If she wakes up earlier than 4.00am I'd be VERY surprised.  Go on.....