How to handle increasing A times.

[Deb_in_oz]

i just know that when i switched to formula with liv i learned more about it all and I know there is a formula on the market here that is geared towards hungry babies - must be more concentrated in calories somehow.  i believe this is considered a better approach than rice in the bottle...

i asked what solids he was on so that i could make a suggestion there - when alex (who had been sleeping through) started waking again hungry, i did start her on solids at 5 1/2 mo (sincewe were so close to 6 mo) and that worked for her and then whenever she had a greowth spurt - 6mo and 9 mo particularly i made sure to have extra carbs at dinner instead of fruit since carbs would hold her over more / fill her up better. so i was going to recoimmend making sure dinner is carb based so thinking rice cereal with a smaller amount of fruit instead of let's say avocado and pear which could be a good brekkie.  just a thought.

where do you buy your formula? in Australia - in addition to supermarkets and such, our pharmacies carry formula (usually a little more expensive) - I always used them as a resource so woudl ask them about the different formulas etc - they would always be the ones as well that carried specialist ones like for kids with allergies.  if you have formula at the pharmacy there i would ask the pharmacist (not a checkout person, but the pharmacist) for assistance.  otherwise you coudl call the 800 number for your brand and see if they do a version.

don't worry about the variety Lyle has - he has a good amount for 6 1/2 mo - what is the volume he takes in that you are cutting him off at (seeing as he takes 10 oz bottles at times he probably needs his amounts of food increased faster than an average 6 mo old - and he is a boy right?)


glad that you are seeing some improvemenets - and let's see what happens with next naps and movign forward the catnap by 15 min...)

[sherry lynn]

Hey Deb,
I'm not sure when you posted, but I just got it. Those are some really good ideas. I'll try to get the consistency for the rice cereal better. Lyle didn't seem to like it much last time.
I don't know if you guys have the same packages of baby food, but we have Gerber steps one and two. He will eat almost a whole container of step one and half of a step two.

I made a few mistakes today, and that's fine. I figure the nights can't get much worse than they are right now, so I just tried to go with it. I tried to send good sleeping vibes to Lyle while trying to get him calm for the catnap.

Here was our night and day.
8:06 First Night waking, was on his belly crying, gave him soother a few pats and left, settled fine
Lots of talking last night. From 1:!5-3:30 - not sure how much he slept (or at all) because I was good and did not go into his room until he cried.
at 1:15 he cried for about 20 sec - not frantic and stopped so I let him be
Started chatting around 1:45, heard him about every 30 min. At 3:30 he started really crying, so I got up and started making him a bottle, and his cry got really frantic so I went in to check on him before I even finished, he was on his belly and he was completely soak all on his front - usually he soaks through on the back, so he had been on his belly a long time.
3:30 changed him and gave bottle - downed 8 oz in about 10 minutes
Back in crib 3:49 played a little while asleep at 4:06
5:06 am - woke at the infamous hour - put himself back to sleep YEY!! but then.....
5:22 Woke crying
5:30 back asleep - woke every ten minutes so kept my arm on him to keep him asleep until 6:30
6:50 BF
7:40 Bananas
8:46 Nap (woke at 27 min took ten minutes to settle) slept until 10:35
10:48 BF
11:40 Bananas
12:48 Nap (37 min) did not stay - woke every ten minutes - after fourth time could not get him back down woke at 1:57 tried until 2:15
2:30 BF
Took him on a long walk - too long
Tried for catnap 3:50
4:10 Pears
4:30 Tried for catnap
4:55 Gave up
5:30 Bottle
6:00 in bed
6:10 asleep - independently - on his side

[sherry lynn]

I wanted to come back and report some positives.
Yesterday and today - even though Lyle had such long A times in the afternoon he was not fussy at all. He just kept rolling around, scooting, and practicing his new sound. He was truly like the everlasting energizer bunny.
Last night he was kind of hard to settle.
Tonight - I guess the batteries wore out

[huntersmummyinoz]

hi sherry,

still following your thread as your probs are so similar to my little guy still (we have regressed again since going away for a week). have no idea what to try next and getting very little help on boards however sounds like you are having some good success with napping tho, well done.

hungry baby formula has more casein in it.  casein and whey are common proteins used in formula. eg. hunters current formula, 0 to 6mths, has 60% whey and 40% casein, and the stage 2 formula has 60% casein and 40% whey.  only know coz hunter has been guzzling 50+ ounces in a day at the moment! i was advised to wait until he is 6mths before starting, so should be fine for lyle tho. was also advised that it can cause constipation as has more iron in it.

hope that helps and all the best.

kirry

ps. deb, thanks for all your good advice as it has helped me previously with my little man.

[Deb_in_oz]

you're welcome and thanks for clarifying about the hungry formula - i do remember the issue about the iron and constipation too.

[sherry lynn]

Kirry thanks.

I went to the store yesterday and asked about it, now I have a little more info to continue looking. I don't know why I didn't think about it - but I should look on line. DH is the one who suggested that.

I am way behind on giving details Because I went out and did the errands yesterday. While DH stayed home. That was a nice change. Today we both are going out and taking Lyle.

I just wanted to come report our first major success.
I have been thinking a lot about his cues and how I can use that information even though he is OT when I put him down for each nap. And I came up with something important. Almost every morning he gets really fussy about 8-10 min before the 2 hour mark. So today I put him down 8 minutes early. AND HE WENT TO SLEEP ALL ON HIS OWN!!!!! YEY! I was so excited about that. He hasn't done that for a nap in about 3 weeks, I think. I'm so glad for your advice Deb to always always give him the chance to do it. I have been following that advice, he just hasn't been able to live up to his part
Then it gets better,
Even though he stirred a ton of times - about every major transition for him - he put himself back to sleep. He slept at leat 1 hour 30 min, all by himself. I was also snoozing in his room, hiding of course. It's the best place to nap in the whole house. And I got up and read a book. Then I really had to use the bathroom, and the stupid door creaked, and then the trash man came, and it's always so loud. I heard Lyle moan, but I haven't heard him again and it's been 15 minutes.

I just had to come brag on him. This is our first major break through. He fell asleep at about 2h5 min. So that was awesome.

Lyle is consuming 50+ ounces also. I did all bottles yesterday for the first time. He is also doing solids three times a day. His solid intake does not seem to be hindering his liquid intake at all. So that was good to see.
Deb, on a 6am - 6pm schedule - when do you recommend trying to give the rice cereal. I don't want to upset his tummy. I haven't tried that yet.

Thanks so much everybody.

Kirry - maybe you should try going 2 hour A time cold turkey like we did?? Hunter might not be ready - I don't know, but maybe give it a try - just 3 days. If naps have gotten to the point that mine did - you don't really have much to loose. I know we didn't. We started getting all 30 min naps no matter what I did. It was so frustrating. Just a thought - a scary one I know..

[jennandsophie]

Sherry -- that's amazing!  Way to go Lyle!  Hoping it just gets better and better from here...

[Deb_in_oz]

sherry - THAT is what BW is about - the 2hr A time is a guide and Lyle needing to go down EIGHT minutes earlier is not any different than 2hrs or 2hr 10 min etc. it is not exact and THAT is why we learn about OUR children - you ROCKED today!!! that is awesome for you both!

about the rice cereal - if he has been having it and has no tummy issues it does not really matter in general - usually it is an issue for lo under 6 mo due to digestion (in Australia it is recommended to wait til 6 mo but i know many in UK do 4 mo so who knows) - but lyle is 6 1/2 mo so shoudl be fine.  it never had a bad impact on my kids to do it at bedtime.  since it can be constipating i mixed it with some fruit to make it a little better for digestion, but if let's say Lyle is an evening pooper and this started to impact on that (ie - no poop before bed and that unsettles him. then you just move it earlier or reduce the amount of cereal...) 


Olivia had a lot of constipation issues even before we moved to formula )(to the point that when she finally pooped dh and i knew we were in for a good 48hrs before the constipation started causing bad sleeps etc), but alex was a major pooper from day 1(explosive!!) so rice cereal did nothing to her - my kids cover 2 ends of the spectrum on almost every issue (which is why i have a lot of relevant experience for a wide variety of questions that appear on BW) so it is just a matter of where Lyle falls in the spectrum of poop LOL  .  if he is ok with rice cereal geberally then i woudl just do it for dinner solids -like at 5pm maybe (when do you normally do his evening solids?)

[huntersmummyinoz]

2 hour A time for us is a very scary thought. we have ended up in a mess again just trying to get to 1hr30!  i am suspecting that in my efforts to increase his A time, i have made him a paci addict?? whenever he wakes at 30 to 35min OT time i replugged and he settled back to sleep.  when i went from 1hr15 to 1hr20 i only had to do this for 2 days and his naps settle back to usual 1.5hrs. this time in going from 1hr20 to 1hr25 had been doing it for 5 days and still OT wake ups, so now even that i've pulled back on A time, i think he can no longer do the transitions on his own     

sorry, not wanting to highjack your thread or anything, just venting. no idea what we are doing anymore.

glad to hear your little successes with lyle, sounds like you are doing a great job

[sherry lynn]

Kirry,
Try going back to 1h15 for a few days?? That is what I had to do, but.... if he gets back on track, don't stay there too long, I think that is a mistake I made. If/when he gets back on track shoot for 1h20m, 1h25m again. I think you are with me on the whole increasing A times stinks You'll get it. (and then things will be good for a week or so, heh) That's how I feel. Good times last 5-7 days

Deb,
I haven't been doing an evening solid. It's been about 7/11/3 I figured it was too close to the evening bottle after the catnap, but I def know that Lyle will not object to more solids He's been playing so much during liquid feeding time. Today I just ended up cutting him off at 8 oz, he seemed done. I went to the store, and when I came back DH said that Lyle was fussy then it was solids time and Lyle ate a whole container of peas and was as happy as can be after... My son is eating me out of house and home.... already and he's not even 7 months old. HEH.
 

[huntersmummyinoz]

thanks sherry, will definately give it a go. something has to work eventually right 

sounds like your little man is an eating machine too.  started hunter on solids last week on health nurse advice coz he drinks sooooo much milk (hope this isnt the cause of probs)

all the best

[sherry lynn]

Kirry,
We had the same exact problem with trying 1h30m. Everything went so bad at that point. Just don't let your feedings slide forward too much like I did.

Well I missed the window this morning. He got so fussy when we were out on our walk. He was OT by the time I got him home and in bed. Oh well.

He refused the catnap again yesterday - this time it was in the car. But we didn't have any noise until 4. That was really good for us these days. Then he went back to sleep by himself. Then wake at 4:30 - went back to sleep on his own again - both times before I even made it to his room. Then really up and crying for food at 5. 
So I thought that was pretty good. He also ended up putting himself back to sleep at about 5:30 then he slept until a little before 7 yey!!!

Maybe it's time to drop the catnap??? But his A times are still so low. I am going to keep trying to at least give it. But his nights do seem a little better without it. And we are getting EW regardless. So??

[sherry lynn]

If he does take a catnap what do you guys think might be a good A time for his age. I used to have a magic A time that worked, but doesn't seem so anymore. Sometimes he wakes OT an hour later with long A times, and sometimes he doesn't. Sometimes he does - just with 1h30 m A time - all the way to 4+ hours. Last night was 4 hours between nap and time he feel asleep and he did not have an OT episode last night???
I have noticed that even though he did not take that top off for 3 days in a row - he will not go to bed without it now - which seems to work out a little better - he seems to be waking for the DF a little less now - I think I'm also going to stick to 10pm regardless of when he takes the top off - he seems to be settling back to sleep better with this time. 

[sherry lynn]

I don't get it.
I just tried putting him down for the catnap at 1h45m. He seemed tired - but not OT. (maybe even UT)
He wouldn't sleep. As soon as he was in the crib he started rubbing his eyes, gave a nice big yawn, at one point even started shaking his head from side to side, but no sleep.
He was up from his nap at 2:15  (we started the day at almost 7) 
I'm going to try again, but not feeling hopeful. But luckily not really upset about it either. But his next feed is not really even until 6:45  (5:45 if I cluster feed)

He just yawned again, I'm going to go try.

[Deb_in_oz]

it could well be that he is on his way to dropping it,m but i would offer every day until he refuses it every day for at elast a week.. i did this with liv for dropping the 1 nap as she has started saying she does not want to sleep etc. and same as alex she never skipped more than 2-3 days before returning to regular nap. alex did the same - sometimes it takes 2 or 3 periods of them trying to give up a nap slot before it sticks as a permanent change, but it is sometimes like a warning flare telling you it is on the horizon.  you will know it is done when he consistently does not take it for 1-2 weeks (although even then i have had my girls add back in the 1 nap so if it is premature they start getting truly wiped out and you can tell they need it again - remember flexability). 

so if you offer it (as far as time - i don't think there is a magic # as you have to look at the whole day for clues - very active day and he is more likely to need it, more laid back and the 2 naps might be all he needs to recharge for bed) just do it with an open mind. if he does not take it don't freak out about it, just go with that knowing that he is telling you he does not want the "extra" nap today and stay relaxed about it. the other 2 naps are more important for the long haul - if he has a day with 2 short naps then the catnap may be more critical, but if he does 2 x 1hr+ naps he may be fine iykwim

i think i mentioned previously that as much as liv had shorter A times due to the spiritedness, from about 6-7 mo she started extending A times rapidly and caught up to textbooks and beyond (she was having 4-5 hrs after 2nd nap for a long while) and eventually went to 1 nap by 11 mo. which is a big jump from struggling to go to 2hr A times at 5 mo to going to 1 nap 5 1/2 mo later!  so my point is to trust your instincts and keep following his lead - if he refuses the catnap, maybe move bedtime up a 1/2 hr but otherwise just do lots of low key things at the end to do a LONG windown to bedtime and he may be fine.  as i said another time about Liv going to 1 nap i think they either need short As or very long As at some point as the very long A takes them PAST the OT stage and they seem to do better than the in between A time which leads to OT.  does all that make sense?