Can someone show me where I keep going wrong?

[RACHPEM]

Hi Em, she evetually dropped off at 12pm, I feel terrible I lost it with her a little, not really sure why as she has been 10x worse at night I think it is part tiredness and frustration on my part she is never like that at nap time.  I hope she takes a decent nap, fingers crossed.
Rachael x

[RACHPEM]

She slept 1hr 20mins. So i will still aim for same bedtime, although I am still so wary of early bedtimes and I do think she needs longer than 5hrs pre bed but we shall see.  Any idea why she resisted her nap today, do you think OT still or UT due to longer nt sleep?  tbh she looked knackered by 10am!
Rachael x

[bethanys mummy]

Dont be too hard on yourself, you are oh so very much trying to get it right for her, and you are so tired it makes everything x10 worse

TBH I think we always have to vote for OT as she is hardly having oodles of sleep, even if its more than usual

How was the wind down and how is her temperement on waking?

E x

[RACHPEM]

she was fine upto about 1hr ago then is getting grouchy. tbh windown is normally quite short with naps, we have never had to bother with much of a routine napwise only bedtimes although we do keep things lowkey before hand and she had sat on my lap most of the morning so not sure if something else is going on with her.  having said that she is always so much more tired when she has slept better!
Rachael x

[Vicku]

Hi Rachael,
Sorry to hear things have been so difficult. I'm sure the sleep deprivation is getting to you and making it feel even harder, so big hugs to you!
I think 1.15/1.30 naps are ok. Not great of course, but ok if she also STTN. I know a few toddlers that have never taken longer naps on 1 nap routine and have about 12 hrs on average. Maybe she's one of those kids too and won't get to the 2 hr naps who knows... I agree the EWs are a killer and totally understand you want to do something about those.
Maybe sticking with 1 nap now you've tried 2 and it doesn't work is a good idea. With the odd 2 nap day if she seems to need it. Do whichever bedtime you think she'll need to get enough sleep if she wakes her normal time. If things stabilise again you can then have another go at *slowly* shift the whole day later. Remember it has to be everything; meals and all.
I really hope this will end for you soon and you can get some decent mornings. x

[bethanys mummy]

hmmm toddler sitting still on your nap is usually a sign of something!!!

I know its still tough, but as v said, stick with one nap when you can but throw in the odd 2 naps is she seems more tired or suits you

Yes she may never do 2 hrs regularly and quite soon I think she will be able to cope with that if she continues to STTN. But just makes her more vulnerable to getting OT so the odd extra nap will always help.

more HUGS

[RACHPEM]

thanks again guys for your continous support, I have really needed it today I have just felt so yucky.  I did a super duper long windown tonight and I left the room at 6.15 I got no protest so hopefully she has dropped off or will do shortly. I dont suppose I will ever know but I wish I did know how much sleep she actually needs then at least I can base my day round that.  i dont mind 1.20 naps tbh and i think she is more of a 1.5 hrs girl it is just bed.  I know i keep mentioning holiday and things are different when away but she was great, we were pretty much on the move everyday so she just had to sleep in her pushchair when she needed it and then prob took no more than 1 hr, (some days more if we stayed in), we had just shifted to 1 nap and set times were 11.30 and this was roughly the time she fell asleep even when she had slept longer and bedtime was always 6.30-7 and she always asked to go! she also slept at least 12 hrs sometimes longer,must have been the rocking of the boat, we shall have to buy one lol!!!
Rachael x

[bethanys mummy]

she has really teased you with that holiday and lol about the boat.....

we are away this weekend and I know that means worse sleep for us!

I think you can safely assume she needs 12-13, ie a bit less than most. So if you get 11 at night you will prob be ok with 1.5 hrs at lunchtime, just watch it if you get less than 10.5 & 1.5 for more than a day or 2 and think about 2 naps. Although B often does about 2, she rarely does above it so her average is prob closer to 1.5

I am really hopeful that you will have a stable period and then you can think about the edging her day later.... she cant tell the time you know so must be possible!!!

E x

[RACHPEM]

Oh my !!! 4,45 this morning and no sign of her dropping back off.  She woke up happy and lay in her bed for the best part of an hour, I know she did not fall asleep as she kept calling mum every 10 mins but I left her there until was crying which was an hr later, so at lleast she stayed there.  So I am back to my orignial theory of her only needing 10.5 at night as if she dropped offf at 6.15 this would be 10.5, 6.30 then slighltly less.  So how the hell do I make this work if that is all she is going to take.
Rachael x

[RACHPEM]

I hope you guys dont mind but I have opened another thread incase anyone else can shed some fresh light on our situation,. Please dont think I dont appreciate your help and support as this is not the case and I hope I can still count on your support. I feel like I am loosing the plot!
Hugs Rachael x

[Vicku]

Hugs hun! Well if you remember my DD only takes 10.5. Been where you are and she'd wake 4:45 if I put her to bed at 6:30, just seem unable to sleep longer than that at night and thankfully we found ways of creating a routine that we can both thrive on. My only suggestion then (as she doesn't rally seem OT if wakinghappy and in cot for an hr before upset) would be to make the routine with 1 nap in the middle of her awake period (her day) then very slowly move everything later.
So say something like
wake up 4:45
nap 11
bed 6:15

then moving everything just 5 mins/day ?  she might still wake same time for a while while you push things later so if she gets OT then a 2 day nap is a good way to catch up and make sure you can maintain the bedtime.
If you still have my original pm about her possibly being a 10.5 hr kid like mine there might be some advice to consider there too. I think the key here to make it work for your DD would be to push *slowly*! I know you want a quick change for the better, but it doesn't seem easy to adapt her to a later day so patience and slowly moving towards the goal would be important.
I agree she just doesn't seem to need more nightsleep than 10.5 hrs and maybe, just maybe her naps have been suffering from all the swapping and changing from trying to find out what works.
I'm tempted to think she is one of those toddlers with low sleep needs. Average is 12-14 hrs in 24, and some kids will then have to be 12 or lower. I wonder if you let her sleep 10.5 at night without thinking she should do more and then just letting her naps just be however long she will take at the middle of the day, if she's be happy with that? Obviously her day needs to be shifted later to keep your sanity, but I just wonder if you think *she'd* be content on that amount IYKWIM?

[LisaM]

Rachael sorry to hear that things are still not going too well.  I agree with Vicku that maybe you will have to accept that she is always going to be on the lower end of the sleep scale and try to work with it.  That is pretty much what we have done and believe me I totally understand how you feel and that you can't see a way to make it work to ever get a better routine going.  As you know we are still having bad days but it definitely has improved overall.  I just don't think my lo will ever be consistent - she is out to shock thats for sure.  Anyway, we did start slowly moving out the nap every few days to see what she could cope with.  I still doubt myself when we get bad days and think its due to being OT and maybe it is but she still had bad days when she going to bed very early and having naps earlier too so am just going to have to live with. 

Anyway, although you are depairing of the situation right now I am sure that things will improve for you.  This week we have had  7am, 6.30am, 6am, 5.40am, 5.20am and 6.00am wake up times so as you can see she does not have a set pattern at all but I am definitely more relaxed about it and just do the best I can to get her to sleep, unfortunately, she is not as keen as I am to make this happen!!

Sending you lots of hugs, I know its probably no good to say this but please try not to stress about it so much, I know that their sleep becomes the sole focus of your day and for me the wake up time can set the mood for the day which is not good and they probably pick up on it.

Lots of luck whichever way you chose to approach it.

PS - do you get to have a lie-in on a weekend , dh and I take it in turns so I sleep late on a Sat and he does on Sunday so we both feel a bit better.

Hope you do have a good weekend
xx

[RACHPEM]

Thanks lisa, I appreciate your support.  I really think Maya does need less sleep, but how I can make this work for us when she wakes so blinking early I have no idea.  If I thought putting her down later would help i would but she still wakes the same time.  Hubby and I do take it in turns, tbh I am not so much tired but frustrated with the whole situation as I am in bed for 8.30-9pm most nights so I am hardly spending any time with hubby as he works quite late in the evening.
Hope things stay stable for you.
Rachael x

[RACHPEM]

Thanks Vicku again for your help.  I really do think Maya needs less sleep, as only occasionally ie when she is ill she takes longer and I think you are right with the swapping and changing she does not know what i going on.  I think I am going to have to bite the bullet and just aim for 1 nap like you say and push bedtime out and hope she gets the message sooner rather than later.  i know it sounds like I want a quick solution, and I know it is not going to happen overnight I just feel lost with where I am heading with all the changing, if I knew what worked I would be ok.
Thanks again,
Rachael x

[LisaM]

Rachael

Yes it does some like an impossible situation and things are still far from perfect here but at least I feel like I kind of know what I will be doing each day and so don't worry about it all so much. 

We did push out naptimes slowly and also made bedtime later which again didn't really change things straight away and would often still wake early but it did take a while for her to change and wake a bit later (can't rely on it though but lovely when it happens).  I did also just decide that I was going to do one nap as 2 was a big struggle and she was refusing the pm one and so only had 1 very early nap so thought it was the best option. 

I also go bed so early its ridiculous but it won't last forever (fingers crossed!).  Same as you I hardly see DH he is never in before 7 and last 2 nights came home 11pm and 9pm as very busy at work at the mo so haven't really spoken for 2 days.  Doesn't help our relationship at all so I know how you feel.

Keep your chin up - it will get better and you can always come here for a chat or support etc., we all need that with these bad sleepers!

xx