Can someone show me where I keep going wrong?

[bethanys mummy]

Let us know how it goes... will try to check in over weekend. If she does wake at 5.30 then could try for 2 naps if you are going out as a family.... I know I keep on mentioning it, if you do it and you have a terrible day then I will feel very bad!

Lisa - re your questions on how we got past things.... well first thing is to say that she is largely better but will still fall off the better sleeper wagon if tired or overexcited eg on hols. But she is allot more predictable and having a 2 nap day (cat nap + another nap) normally sorts her out if things go wrong eg on our recent holiday where she was waaaay to busy and excited!

But the main things for us were:
- getting and keeping on top of being OT (takes more than a couple of days) - early nights were a struggle at first as she stuck to 10hrs and just got up earlier. So usually had 2 naps
- doing WIWO at bedtime and being a little but tougher with her NWs. because the 2 to 1 switch went on for a while and she had had a sucession of illnesses she had probably got too used to us being there for her. She wasn't AP addicted but not really a wonderful independent sleeper either. Having the chance to be consistent for a long period of time helped
- we also did a little bit of WIWO in the morning. She rarely went back to sleep but it was creating the message
- we blacked out the room. I mean really dark. We had blackout blinds but they were the type where some light comes in the sides / top. We got quite instant results after this, but had done some of the other things first so prob a mix of both

HTH

[RACHPEM]

Maya was up at 5.30am as promised but no nw's.  I never heard a peep from her all night and at least she had 11 hrs.  I know I keep harping on this but how am I going to get a later start to my day if she wakes that early? 6hrs even til 11.30 is too long so pushing it 10-15 mins extra is going to be too hard, and if I bring nap forward my whole day will be shifting even earlier.
help.
Rachael xx

[NiknLily]

honestly honey, it can be done by shifting 10mins a day, or even 5mins a day if you think 10mins is too long.  Lily was waking at 5am, nap at 11am bed by max 5.30pm and only taking a 45min nap when I shifted her day.  Just remember you need to shift everything, not just sleep times, meal times need shifting up too as they are internal markers to her body clock as to what's coming next.

[RACHPEM]

I feel like i just keep going round in circles.  After the good night where she slept 11 hrs but woke at 5.30am, I kept her nap still at 11.30 (not sure if I should have made it earlier, but if I bought earlier then day just keeps shifting earlier and we will never get a later start in my eyes) she slept 1.15 which meant nap finished at 12.45 and she did not fall asleep until 7.10pm! we had 1 nt waking at 10pm-11.30 and then she wasup at 4.50 this morning!!!!!
Help!!!
Rachael x

[bethanys mummy]

Gosh not fun at all, but try and see it as a set back not a complete disaster. How did you treat the NW - WIWO??

As I can understand that you worry that an early bedtime will pull your day earlier then the only thing I can suggest is two  naps which will extend your day.... esp as she is probably tired after her NW (rather like Mummy.....)

Do you think you could give that a try occasionally?

E x

[RACHPEM]

Well Maya took an 1.5 nap at 11am on sunday morning which meant awake by 12.30pm.  We had a family commitment so we were out until gone 6pm so I could not get her into bed until 7pm where she fell straight to sleep and not a peep from her until 4.50 again!!!! I did go in and tell her it was still bedtime and she was quiet until 6am which was better.  i just cant work her out, yesterday she went 6.5 hrs before bed and we got no nw's so I really dont know which way to go with this.  What would you do re naps? still stick to 11.30 as a base time or go later or go with A times depending on wake times?
Rachael x

[bethanys mummy]

Hi there

quiet until 6am - did she def not go back to sleep (my lo definately could not stay quiet that long!!)?!!!

I just dont think you have much choice other than to have 2 naps, the maths just does not work otherwise - if she is doing say 10.5 at night and 1.5 at nap then that gives you 12 hours of A time, seems too much and likely to make her OT, which we suspect she is because of her being grumpy.

So if she woke at, say 5.30 am I would go for a little errand at about 9 am in the car, hopefully catnap until 9.30. Should tide her over to about 12. Even if she still naps  for only 1.5 hrs this gives you until 1.30. This gives a bedtime of about 7pm, give or take, back up again at 5.30 ish. So she may do this for a while which will still hurt in terms of you having an EW but is giving her more sleep time in total and stops day moving any earlier.... then, after a while can cut back / out cat nap

Do you think you could try this at all? As I said, we usually dont have 2 naps now, but do occasionally if there is an issue like holidays or unexplained NW. Just helps sort things out

I know you must be trying to match the NWs to OT levels. And I know that this can be a key issue, and we beleive your lo is tired, and so it may be part of the problem,  but its not the only thing that makes lo's wake at night so try not to always think its so clear cut.

On Saturday night Bethany was up every hour with absolutely no change to her routine whatsoever, obviously something else going on that we just dont know!! Thankfully she slept for 11.5 hours last night without a peep (usually have some sort of resettling moan every so often) so who knows!!! But one thing that made me think of you was that, for her nap on Sunday she woke after 1,10 and had to be patted back off to sleep, then was fitful for about 15 mins before having 2,10 in the end. For her 1,10 is def OT (not suprising after the previous night) and I really think at this age you cant think much else...

E x

[RACHPEM]

Hi Emma, i think she did go back to sleep until 6am, that is why I thought 11,30 would still be ok,  for a nap.  I am not opposed to trying a catnap, although we have never had success with that either before, if she takes a short nap in the am that normally means no more naps all day even if it is only 30 mins.  We tried for a catnap yesterday at 9ish after waking at 4.50 with 1.5 hrs up in the night and she still did not take it, in the end we went with 11am and we got an 1.5 nap. 
Rachael x

[RACHPEM]

Hi, just wanted to update.  I put Maya down at 11.30 and she is still asleep, 2hrs + !!!! I obviously dont want her to sleep too long so it affects bedtime, but should I let her sleep this one out as she is catching up? and then what do I do about b/time? approx 5hrs after wakes???
Be great if someone is about to let me know before bed.  btw way she has just woke so 2hrs not bad!
Rachael x

[bethanys mummy]

Hey, going back to sleep until 6am is brilliant!!! I am sure she will tease you by not doing this all the time but its a move in the right direction

Obviously too late for you! But great that she did a 2hr nap (BTW I notice that it was probably 2,10, Bethany often does exactly this amount, cant you see I am a sleep obsessed Mummy)

Yes I would go for 5 ish hours after, so hopefully actually asleep about 7pm. Def give her the odd chance to catch up if she will, maybe waking after 2.75 hours. Bet you did not know what to do with your extra 40 mins!!!

Take one day at a time....

E x

[Vicku]

Hi Rachael!
Sorry I've not been around much last few days. Been to a wedding...
Congratulations on the long nap!!! I remember being in your place and suddenly getting a 2 hr nap. It was the beginning of things getting gradually much better, so I hope it will be for you too. It wasn't without setbacks though but definitely a turn for the better.
Emma, Lois also seem to do 2.10 very often actually, and is always happy and content after that time.
Let us know how you're getting on sweetie!

[bethanys mummy]

well of course 2,10 is just 3 sleep cycles ish... but its nice to be able to predict when she will wake up and get on with things for another 40 mins!

Take care all, lovely picture of Lois BTW, need to update mine but that would mean getting 2 kids to stay still for a whole minute.....

[RACHPEM]

Hi all, Maya was asleep by 6.45 and up at 4.50 again this morning!!!! I did ignore her but she was happy chatting for ages, the EW cant possibly still be OT? I just dont know which way to go with this.  I will offer 2 naps today, but no matter what we do we get early starts and I just dont know how to break this cycle.
any thoughts,

Rachael x

[Vicku]

Maya does seem to do 10 hrs-ish most nights, doesn't she? If she woke happy and chatting she might not be OT anymore. Remember you mentioned she'd only do 10 hrs no matter what you did, so maybe she's like my Lois -she's a 10.5 hrs kid. We tried everything, over several months to get her to sleep longer in am, and the thing that cracked it was just giving her a bedtime that allowed her to sleep her 10.5 hrs but still wake at an acceptable time. (I know I wrote about this a while back, but thought I'll update you) So we chose 8:30 bedtime, and she sleeps til 7 (naps at 1-3).
Like Emma said, try to do a 2 nap day. Maybe you could try for a first nap at 8:30 (early enough for her not to resist a 2nd nap, but not too long A) then the second at 1:30? Say she's sleep an hr at first nap and an hr at the second, that way you'd then be able to go for a later bedime and hope for another 10 hrs and take it from there.
do you think that would be possible?

Btw, thanks Emma! I know it's hard enough getting a good pic of one kid! This was a lucky shot when she was playing in my parents' dogs' bed LOL

[RACHPEM]

Hi Vicku, I have been wondering a while if she is a 10/10.5 hr nighter, it is so hard to judge when she is unhappy most of the time so I know she is tired.  Every once in a while she will do longer and tbh she does do longer when she goes ot bed at 6.30 she generally sleeps 11 hrs then but not when later, but if she has napped better then she is not ready for bed till later, so bascially I have no idea?
I have put her down at 8.30 this morning for a nap so we shall see what happens, I dont think I want an 8,30 bedtime as I need to go to bed earlish I am more of a morning person but not 5am, so a 7.30 bedtime 6am start would be heaps better for us.
I will keep you posted.
Rachael x