Trying to get 8.5 month old on EASY and having a few issues

[wheelie]

Hello,

After reaching crisis point due to short naps, bad nights and a very overtired baby we started following the BW book to get DS on a four hour EASY. There is definitely an improvement. The first day in particular was great but since up and down. I guess looking at other people's schedules I feel like DS is about 4 months behind most other babies in terms of ow long he can stay awake and how much he can eat. I have the following questions:

1) The routine that Tracy suggests - the four hour EASY that you use to get your baby back on track - seems to be working well but he still needs to catnap between 5-6. We either have a very tired baby on our hands in the evening and put him down at 7 or we put him down for the catnap between 5 and 6 and he goes more happily until 7.30. From what I've read on this website not many babies of his age are taking the catnap. Is this unusual? Should I be working to extend his activity time as per the average for his age range or just keep him on a 'younger' EASY since it seems to suit him?

2) The four hour feeding schedule does work although whenever he has a full feed he tends to vomit a few times afterwards. Like he just can't contain that much milk. 

3) I am also finding it hard to get the E part right when he is up for 2 hours between sleeps as I have to get milk and solids into him. any advice?

any advice much appreciated!
Thanks,
Keelie

[* Paula *]

I would definitely work on increasing your lo's A times slightly as by this age they are generally averaging about 3 hours + A time.

You can try increasing it in 5 minute incremints to help your lo adjust.  Adjusting the A time every 3 days to help your lo cope.

With regards to the E, solids are generally offered about an hour after a milk feed.  These solids don't need to be a substantial meal as your lo is taking majority of his nutrients from the milk he is drinking. 

When you say he vomits, does your lo suffer from Reflux at all?  Does he seem in discomfort after a feed?

[wheelie]

He doesn't have reflux and doesn't seem the least bothered by throwing up. When he was younger I used to feed him from one side only and feed more often as it was the only way to avoid the vomit. Maybe he just needs to grow his stomach a little? I mean if he's breast feeding I know he's choosing to eat the amount he eats and I'm not force feeding him!

I'm going to keep a closer eye on him this week and write down not just the times he does things but his mood etc on waking (a tip I got from this forum!). I think that will help me work how his rhythm a bit more.

I do wonder though why do we need to stretch his A times? This morning I got 1.5 hours out of him before he was desperate for a nap. I tried giving him a change of scene to see if it was just boredom but he was approaching meltdown. He slept for 35 mins but I have kept him in the cot, comforting him and leaving him to settle for an extra hour now. He is asleep at the moment. I know he needs to sleep for longer as he is unhappy when he wakes.

I must admit he still has a dummy and I know it contributes to night wakings etc. But I'm not sure I'm ready to wean him.

[pelusa214]

We are also trying to get our 8-month-old on EASY after 8 months of no sttn, failed attempt at No Cry Sleep Solution and unwilling to let her CIO.  We are having similar issues.  DD can usually stay up 2-2 1/2 hours after waking in the morning, but she's got 2 hours MAX after the first nap before she's rubbing her eyes, and LESS than 2 hours after the 2nd nap before she needs a catnap.  So far (we've been doing it 9 days) if she doesn't get that catnap she's a holy horror of tears & tantrums by 5:30 or so, and she's up half the night.  And when we have NWs in our house, it means DD is awake for 1 hour, sometimes more when she wakes up, regardless of whether or not we feed her.  PU/PD (well, just PD for us since DD stands up in 2 seconds flat) has NOT been successful, and I honestly I'm not sure I see the point in it, at least for our DD (which is why I think CIO would never work anyway).
I'm so tired of authors "promising" that their solution works with every baby, and that if it doesn't work, we're doing it wrong.  And I'm just so tired period. :-(  Sorry I have no solutions, I just wanted to commiserate because we are having the same problems.
BTW DD is a very spirited child with touchy tendencies as well.

[* Paula *]

Wheelie,  That is a very good idea keeping a log on your lo's moods etc, but I would also track the A time and nap times at the same time, so that you can try and pinpoint if the crankyness is due to OT/UT / hungry etc.

Increasing your lo's A times eventually does ensure that your lo has longer naps during the day.

Have you tried staying in your lo's room for nap time and seeing at which point your lo wakes i.e. if the dummy drops out etc?  The dummy could be the reason why your lo is waking so early into a nap.

pelusa214, hugs, I am sorry you are going through such a rough time.  Can you post what your day looks like with
E
A - how long
S - how long

so that we can try and help you get your lo onto a routine.

Also was wondering if you had seen the support thread for mums raising spirited babys?

http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=141883.0

[wheelie]

Don't worry - I am logging EVERYTHING he does at the moment!!

When he wakes up during a nap he has generally already lost the dummy. Then I guess at a point when he would naturally stir if the dummy is still in his mouth or I get in quick enough to replug him he's more likely to go back to sleep.

In the book, Tracy talks about putting them on a 4-hr EASY as a way to change their routine - but this is more like a 2 hr up, 2 hr down schedule. Is this the way you change a routine and then tweak it for an older baby? Because if his A time should be longer perhaps it's not appropriate for me to be doing this?

The first day we did this, he didn't sleep for the first two hour slot but he stayed in his cot for 1.5 hrs and fell back asleep towards the end. When I put him down 2 hours later he slept for 1.5hrs by himself. A very rare nap. Is it possible that some babies just need a lot more sleep at this age than others?

[wheelie]

P.S. Pelusa214 - it seems to me that the better my LO sleeps in the day, the better the night but still there doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason to getting him to sleep/keeping him asleep! This morning he's been awake for 2:15hr so far which is exceptional for him. Yesterday he managed 1.5 hrs before meltdown...

But at least we know we're not the only ones going through this!

[TDR'smom]

P.S. Pelusa214 - it seems to me that the better my LO sleeps in the day, the better the night but still there doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason to getting him to sleep/keeping him asleep! This morning he's been awake for 2:15hr so far which is exceptional for him. Yesterday he managed 1.5 hrs before meltdown...

Definitely sleep begets sleep.  If you can sort out day time naps, night time sleeping should improve dramatically. 

[wheelie]

I am confused! Tracy says in the book that around 8 months babies nap patterns can become more erratic. So I might be trying to push my LO into a routine that he might not follow anyway.

Of the morning and afternoon naps I can't seem to get more than 2-2.25 hours out of him so by 5pm he really needs a catnap. But yesterday I put him in bed at 17h and he took 40 mins to settle. Once he fell asleep he didn't stir again and we didn't think we should wake him and he slept till midnight. He was awake for about an hour and a half then resettled till 4am, had a huge feed and then slept through till 8am this morning.

Today was like this:

8am Wake
8.30 BF
9.30 Solids
10.20-11 Sleep
11.30 Solids (I was eating so I gave him some of mine)
12.30 BF
1300-1430 Nap (resettled in the middle)
1530 Small snack
1645 BF

He was in good spirits all day but by 15h30 starting to get tetchy and by 17h he was really irritable so I put him down for a catnap. he took half an hour to drop off and I thought I would wake him up at 18:15 but he was completely out of it - in a really deep sleep. So we've left him asleep.

What is going on??? I guess I need to block out two weeks and push him into a nap routine. Is there a sample EASY routine for 8-9 months olds? Is it advisable to do this given that Tracy talks about how their nap schedule can change from day to day at this age? I think that if I could extend the day naps I could drop the catnap and keep him on a even keel all day. But how to do this??? Also I read there is no point doing PU/PD with a dummy. So is weaning the inevitable next step?

Ooh and also you asked about what is waking him up from his naps. Well from today I would have to say that he seems to be waking up to poo. Can babies poo while asleep at this age? Both naps required a nappy change afterwards.

Will starting potty training as per the BW advice help with this?

Thanks!
Keelie

[pelusa214]

Is "dummy" a pacifier?  PU/PD didn't work for us anyway, and to be honest, I really don't like it.  And it only serves to get both me and DD extremely upset & she has never gone back down afterwards.  The only similar thing that works is just sitting in the room with her & letting her crawl & walk around the crib until she poops herself out & goes to sleep on her own.  But it takes a while, and she'll cry if I leave but is fine as long as I'm in the room.

[TDR'smom]

Pelusa214-

Is "dummy" a pacifier?

Yes!

Depending on your lo's temperament, Pu/Pd does not work for all lo's.  For a spirited baby it can actually overstimulate them.  How old is your lo?

[* Paula *]

Also one thing to remember is as they get older their tired cues change, so when they start getting irritible or yawning, it can be out of boredom and a simple change of scenery can do the trick in keeping your lo happy and also extending A times.

Might be worth a try.l

[pelusa214]

Yes, PU/PD is definitely overstimulating for DD.  Which is yet another reason why CIO wouldn't work for us, even if we had been willing to do it.  The only thing that works is rocking her in the glider, or if she's still sleepy enough, I can just lean in to the crib & let her hold my hand.  After a few minutes she lets go & turns over to sleep.
We are planning on trying to get her to do 3 hours A and 1.5 hours S, starting tomorrow, and see how that goes.  I think she'd do better with 3A2S, but I don't see that happening right now.  At least I know 1.5 sleep is occasionally attainable.

[TDR'smom]

At least I know 1.5 sleep is occasionally attainable.

That is good news.  Let us know how the A times work out!

[wheelie]

I managed 2.5 hrs A time this morning. I think I have been mistaking change of scene cues for sleepy cues. He went straight off to sleep afterwards and slept for an hour - so an improvement on the usual 30mins to 45 mins. He also woke and I could here him chatting in his cot for another 15 mins - a first for him as he normally wakes up crying. I only got half an hour out of him later but I was out of the house. In bed at 6 - went down very easily so we'll see how tonight goes!

With regards to the PU/PD I very rarely pick DS up. I think he is a textbook baby with an element of grumpy thrown in (although the grumpy is mostly due to tiredness which is my fault I guess for not helping him sleep more) but still it unsettles him to be picked up and to be fair he doesn't do much more than mantra cries mostly (I think!). I guess at this age you have to adapt the technique for your baby and that thing you do (Pelusa) with the baby holding your hand sounds like a variation of it to me. So that's a good trick to have. Maybe you just need to do that rather than picking up or patting. I sometimes even find too much speaking with my LO can distract him.