Will he ever sleep better??? Or should I give in???

[Francy&Ricky]

Hello everybody.

Thought I'd better start a new topic, because things have really changed from my first one http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=145978.0 .

Hope this won't be too long...

Riccardo is now 19 months old and he's never been a good sleeper.
But, in the last couple of months we had many successes.
DS used to wake nearly every hour and when he woke up in the middle of the night (between 2 and 4 am) he wanted to come to our bed. And he also had many problems falling asleep on his own.

We started to give him a medication (niaprazine) to see if it could help reducing the number of NWs, and solved bedtime problems and staying in his cot problems with BW techniques. We decided to start with a proper bedtime routine (we had one but tried to be more consistent) and GW. But, after a few days, I realized there was also some manipulation in his behaviour and decided to try with WI/WO and to stick with it.

It worked, I cannot say it didn't.....He falls asleep quiet and fast (maybe also because of the medicine), we cut the number of NWs and he is not coming to our bed anymore.

But problems are still there.
And I am back again in the whirl of tiredness and I feel like I have no other possibilities to try. I feel like at the end of a blind alley....and I also feel guilty because I am his mother and I should know what is good for him and how to let him rest and sleep. But no! He still has a lot of problems.

In spite of medication and WI/WO, he still has 2/3 NWs per night and still wakes up SO EARLY (somewhere between 4.45 and 5.45 am),  no matter what time he goes to bed. I don't know if it is because he is an early bird....he looks so tired and still in need of sleep when he wakes up.

And we are so tired too; he goes to bed at 8 but we cannot! So, the result is that we sleep an average of 4-5 hours per night, with NWs. I know it can be enough for some people, but not for me. I work and have no help with DS, except for DH when he is home (rarely as he works a lot...); no grandparents, aunts or other relatives and we are so yearning for sleep after almost 2 years....also because I realised to be a lot more intolerant and irritable, even towards DH and DS and I really don't like it!

Has anyone experienced a situation like ours?

Will he ever sleep better? And can I help him someway sleeping better?

Or should I simply give in?!

Sorry for the outburst...it's really a "manic monday"...

Francesca

[franchick]

Can't write for long but a few things:

YES, he *will* sleep through the night at some stage, I promise!

He could just be an early bird, in which case I would give a 2 week go of getting him to bed for 7 instead of 8pm and see if that helps at all.

I would highly recommend reading Liz Pantley's book 'The No Cry Sleep Solution' - although not exactly the same as BW, she does share a number of philosophies, but leans a little more towards attachment parenting. However, she has some great ideas and also some good charts for looking at your progress - ANY progress is progress, no matter how long it takes.

Sorry, really got to go - don't give up!!

[Pens Fan]

Hi ya

Don't give up - it will get better it is a phase and he will progress from it.

I have a 3 year old and also a newborn.  Our 3 year old was always a great sleeper was on  EASY from 6 weeks but we had issues around 9 months and then again at just over 2.  It was a mixture of teething, change as we moved to the US from the UK and also early potty training that impacted night sleeping as she wanted the toilet rather than nappy at night.   we tried everything.... star charts, WI/WO, all other sorts of no cry solutions.  At its peak she was taking up to 2 hours to fall asleep at bedtime and woke around 5 times.  Day time naps were fine.   The break through we had was when she stayed at her Grannies for a night and she slept thu - we then realised she was playing us so after 6 months and an imminent new baby we finally opted for putting a stair gate on her room and controlled crying.  It took 2 days and nights but it worked.   Now when we have set backs which we do - my hubby sleeps in her room on an airbed for a night or so.  Stair gate is still on her room.   

Don't give up - try different no cry solutions.  Try to share the night duty between you - so you both get a break.  He will move on from this but I know how soul destroying it can be and with lack of sleep you don't function properly.   

[brenda2]

i agree with trying an earlier bedtmie especially if he wakes up that early.  he may just be OT contributing to the EWs and NWs.

it will get better if you are consistent no matter which technique you choose to go with.  personally i would try the walk in walk out, we have had great success with this. 

when we do it we go in when she cries, put her back down on her back give her her lovies and blankie say sleepy time and leave (20 sec max in her room - no cuddles, no coming out of the bed, leave even if she's still crying), wait about a minute and listen to the kind of cry.  if she's still really screaming we go in and repeat.  wait another minute.  if she's start stop crying or if it sounds like it is de-escalating then we don't go back in.

they certainly can start manipulating you at this age and consistency is key.  we have had a great sleeper but had a set back after illness last week and it's so easy to get off track.  luckily we did wi/wo after i was reminded by this website and we are back on track again.  you will be too 

[franchick]

On the manipulation front, our daughter is nearly 4 and most nights she wakes up and comes to our room to ask if I will come to her room for a cuddle and to sleep with her. TBH, I pretty much go ahead and do this most nights as she just goes straight back to sleep (I have a double bed in her room).

When she stays with grandma or her cousins, though, we always have the 'talk' about how it is nice to not disturb other people in the night and how she needs to try and sleep all night long, blah, blah. Nearly 100% of the time when she is staying over with someone else, she does sleep all night and not disturb anyone. So, without a doubt, she is 'manipulating' me. However, I have come to the conclusion that she should *always* know that I will be there for her, including in the middle of the night. Plus, I quite like those middle of the night cuddles. BUT, I am barely awake and get on average 7 - 8 hour sleep a night, so it is not a problem for me.

My 'solution' is not for everyone, but it works for us. However, it took us a long time to get to this stage - we had the 2 hours getting to sleep stage, the wake for 2.5 hours in the middle of the night stage every night for months stage, the stalling tactics stage... you name it.

My way of coping has been to remain calm, remember it's not forever, and try to get as much sleep as I can so I can deal with it. You *will* be able to cope and, if you are consistent and calm and try to be rested yourself, you *will* see improvement, even if it takes months (years!).

I also highly recommend wi/wo like previous posters - this is something that has worked really, really well for us, particularly for actual bedtime - I remained right outside her room and pottered about doing things. At times I needed to go in and give cuddles, but I only did it for a while.

Now, though, she goes to sleep in about 10 mins flat, but I now stay in her room and read stories - we are onto quite long chapter books, so I actually really enjoy this special time with her and do not grudge that tiny 10 mins of time. Sorry for such a long post and sorry it's really about me - I just want you to know that whatever you do you will be helping you LO on the way to good night's sleep. xxxx


PS Just re-read your post and remembered you are doing wi/wo. Maybe you need to adapt it a little -- not sure exactly how, but try tweaking what you do / say and seriously consider that earlier bed-time - you might just catch a better window for him and he will go to sleep quicker and stay asleep longer - can't hurt to give it a go. (hugs)

[Francy&Ricky]

Girls, thanks a lot for your great support!!

I will try to stick to WI/WO and be more consistent, despite of tiredness...
I do agree with Brenda when she says maybe he is OT due to EWs and NWs and I definitely will try with an earlier bedtime, maybe beginning from 7.30 to reach, after a few days, 7.00, as Frances suggested. It can seem a contradiction in terms, but the more I read about your experiences with it, the more I convince myself it could work.

Frances, I've read Pantley's book last year and I remember she gave great tips...I will re-read it and see if I can find other ideas.
As for WI/WO I think you are right, maybe I have to do some changes. Usually I don't stay outside the door, I just leave and go back to him if he cries, but most of all, as Brenda suggested, I think we must pay more attention to the kind of cry, especially DH. He usually rushes into Ricky's room as soon as he hears a sound coming from his son, and I always have to stop him and say "wait a minute. Let's listen to the kind of cry".

I have also noticed that now we use WI/WO only for the early waking. In fact, at bedtime we have our 10-15 minutes of cuddles, books and lullabies (how precious they are, Frances you are so right!) and then within a few minutes he falls asleep alone in his cot. And for the other NWs we just go in, reassure him, sometimes give him back his dummy and he goes back to sleep within a few minutes.
But for 99% of the EWs he won't fall back asleep and around 6 am we begin our day.

So I ask to myself: does WI/WO work even if he doesn't get back to sleep? Or are we teaching him something else, e.g. that if he keeps on crying he will eventually get what he is crying for? Just a doubt, but any suggestions?

Thanks again. Sharing experiences means so much....

[franchick]

Hi again Francesca (nearly name buddies!) - your night time routine sounds lovely and seems to be working great. As for making bedtime earlier - even if you just achieve 15 mins at first, that might help with his general levels of tiredness.

I certainly have found with Katie that she wakes earlier or is more 'vocal' at a NW if she is OT, so increasing your LOs overall sleep by an earlier bedtime may help out in all fronts.

As to the question: does WI/Wo work even if they don't go back to sleep.... I don't know. It's a question I have asked myself before and crying for the sake of crying is something that *does* bother me. I kind of think if a LO carries on crying, even if it is 'just' out of frustration because they can't get back to sleep, they need our help, support and understanding, so a 'modified' wi/wo with perhaps more vocal or even cuddle contact would be something that would suit me better, but this is a personal viewpoint. There is, without a doubt, a nagging thing in the back of my head too that long spells of crying may possibly teach our LOs to cry to get what they eventually want or, possibly worse, will learn to stop crying altogether because they learn they will never get what they want. I guess it's all about your own perspective and your own LOs cues. No answers, just a perspective.

BTW your LO is adorable in your avatar - lovely cheeky grin and great tousled blond hair that you just want to put your fingers in!

x

[lilflav]

Sorry to thread jack here, but i'm glad you posted that Frances.  I did have success w/ gw, but at the best dd was waking at 6:15 & crying to 7:00.  Then she got sick & I ap'd and is now waking earlier, although not as much as before.  Her wakings can last a long time, and I just don't feel it's right to let her cry so much when she has a hard time falling asleep.  I've been able to get her to lay down and try to fall asleep pretty easily, so as long as she tries then I take her out and comfort & try putting back down awake & repeat.  I think there must be something (other than unable to sooth herself) wrong if she is laying quiet in her crib for 20 min & can't get to sleep & maybe her schedule needs adjusting (2-1 switch issues)?  Hopefully I won't backtrack & end up being woken every 2 hrs like before.  Anyway, I feel a lot better after reading that.

[franchick]

Awww, lilflav - you just made my day. *mwah*. How old is your LO now? I used to worry about backtracking to every 2 - 3 hour wake ups but somehow, eventually, this was no longer an issue and now I don't worry about 'regression'. The 'worst' night in my recent memory was having to get up and go downstairs with Katie to try and fall asleep in the living room because she was running a fever and was too hot / scared to go back to sleep in her bed - but this was one night in perhaps the last year I have had to do something so 'extreme', so, although I haven't 'forgotten' the 'pain' of cr@ppy nights sleep for weeks and months on end, I have been able to 'get over it' lol.

[lilflav]

She's 15 months.  When we sleep trained at 10 months I never trained for nw's, only naps & bedtime & her nights stretched out on its own.  Hopefully the same will happen again.  I am starting wi/wo for naps & night, usually she doesn't need me in the room, but she will have a good cry now & then.  So getting used to being alone in her room will hopefully help.  I know it will all be a memory one day, but I feel like I have missed out on so much (as far as being able to enjoy this time) already & don't want to miss out anymore time.

[brenda2]

we have never really had success with eliminating EWs - they do occasionally still happen.  i consider anything earlier than 6 am too early or if she's had less than 10 hours sleep -that's too early.  but if she wakes up after 6 and has had more than 10 hours sleep i just get her up. 

some kids are just early risers.  put to bed earlier so they get enough sleep all together.

as for how to stretch out the nights and get rid of the EWs i think that the bedtime and the sleep training you do at bedtime and during the night will go a long way to helping the early mornings. 

a lot of times when DD wakes early we just take her onto the couch with us and sometimes she'll go back to sleep and sometimes not.  this week i have decided no more couch time in the mornings - new baby is due in a month and i don't want to deal with DD1 at 5 am.  so i started to try wi/wo when she wakes too early.  yesterday she woke at 5:50 and she managed to go back to sleep on her own after 1 wi/wo and 10 min of mantra whining for another 20 min.  this morning she woke at 5:55 and didn't go back to sleep but i did wi/wo twice and by 6:15 she had stopped crying altogether and just chatted for another 15 min until i got her up at 6:30 - this is a big improvement for her, usually she needs immediate attention in the morning and never just chats to herself.

mornings are the tough one for us..good luck

[Jenn©]

Hi Fran!!  I would caution against the medication.  For one thing, it does not really "teach" him to sleep.  It's a side effect that makes him sleepy.  With most of the sedating antihistimines, the sleepy side effect lessens after you take it for awhile. So, less effective at "helping" that part.  Then there are all of the other side effects.  I can't find how longacting of a med this one is, which is making me nuts.  (curiosity ya know.)  So, imagine that you are giving him something for a fever. The med works for 4-6 hours or 6-8 hours, depending on which you use.  After that time, it wears off and the fever comes back.  (still with me?)  I'm guessing that may be part of his early waking.  Do his NW's happen at randomish times, or more consistant? OK, taking off my lil' nurse hat.    Agree, a consistant routine and plan for wakings is a great idea.  Ditto for WI/WO.  I read Pantley way back when my preemie was little and remember none of it.  Does he nap during the day?  Could some of this be overtired?   
Loving the idea of talking to lo about staying in bed and stealing it for mine.  Hang in there!!!  We'll do what we can to help.

[Francy&Ricky]

Hi!

Jenn, thanks for your opinion on medications. I do agree with you in part. In fact we waited 18 months and tried almost everything before giving it to him. But the situation was really bad. He used to wake up every 45/60 minutes and was so tired and irritable all day that the pediatrician suggested us to try the medication just to see if it could help him find some kind of rythm in sleeping. And then we could start with sleep training too (it was impossible in that situation, we were too tired and too nervous). But, we decided together with the pediatrician, that we will gradually decrease it during the next two months till we can stop and see if he reached something similar to a sleep schedule.

I have never considered the possibility of the medication beeing responsible for his EWs. Actually, it should work all night, but as they state it is completely eliminated from the body during the night and it doesn't affect the day, I can guess the effect gradually decreases during the night. So you may be right....

NWs are not very consistent, but during the last couple of weeks we had one first NW around 10.30-11.30 pm, while the second one can happen somewhere between 1.00am (and in this case it is probable that we have more than 2 NWs) and 5.00 am.

Afternoon naps are ok. He goes to nursery school and he naps 1.00-3/3.30 pm. During weekends his afternoon nap is a little shorter and sometimes he takes also a shorter nap in the morning, thing that doesn't usually happen during school days.

Your last question is a key one I think. I am pretty sure overtiredness plays a very big role here, also considering that he goes to nursery school (very tiring for a 19 mo child, I can guess). And that's way I decided, in addition to WI/WO, to take the advice most of you gave me: try an earlier bedtime.

Usually he is asleep at around 8 pm. Yesterday I put him to bed earlier and here follows our night:

7.30   ASLEEP IN BED (no problems, he was really tired)
11.00  FIRST NW (just went in, gave him paci back and he fell back asleep)
4.40   SECOND NW (very lucky!) (same as first one, but he was more awaken and I found him standing in his cot crying when I got in)
5.00   WAKE UP (1 hour WI/WO, but didn't get back to sleep)
6.00   DAY BEGAN (milk, changing and so on...)

So we got 2 NWs, a very early waking and 1 hour WI/WO without falling back asleep.
And he was still in need of sleep, almost fell asleep in the car on our way to school....

Thanks for support.
It's great to have you there guys!

[franchick]

Hi again Francesca

I'm glad you gave it a go - see what happens over the next few nights before reading anything much into an earlier bed time - fingers crossed!

Frances xx

[Jenn©]

here too!!