Hopeless - 15 months baby EW, refusing naps, sleeps less than 10 hours at night

[aga01]

This is my routine plan based on your advice:

6:30 am           wake-up (5 days in a row, before he was waking anytime between 5-5:30 am)
10:30 - 11 am   1st nap (right now we are doing 10 am) he usually sleeps 30-40 min (since 8-9 months old)
2 -3:30  pm      2nd nap (right now he only sleeps 1 hour or less) will work on 1.5 hours
7:30 pm          bed time (this is 11 hours of night sleep)

Few questions:
1) When and how do I transition into one nap:
   a) do I transition when he takes more than 20 min to fall asleep for his naps otherwise keep it as above
   b) how do I give up the morning nap: extend the A time before the morning nap or shorten the morning nap slowly
2) Is 11 hours of night sleep right and this is what I should be aiming for (on average he has around 10.5 hours)
3) What is your advice on extanding his second nap
   a) should I pick him up (let's say after 40 min) and extend his sleep with accidental parenting till he gets use to long sleep (but that means interapted sleep)
   b) should I use pd or anyother method but don't pick him up at all


Thank you a lot

[sherry lynn]

I think the night sleep is a tricky one, personally. Maybe it's because we've struggled with it for so long, but I think if your LO is averaging 10.5, that might be his norm. Some LO just don't sleep as long at night. I wish I would have come to terms with that a long time ago. Shoot for 11, but if he stays at 10.5 that's ok too.

I would be really careful about jumping 30 min. I would try 15 min first. 10:15
You don't want him to get OT just because of that jump. After 3-5 days you can try increasing it again.

here are some links about the transition.

http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=145285.0

http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=41952.0

That should help. But feel free to ask us any more questions about the transition. It is hard for a lot of LO. There is also a support thread in the nap forum that you can chat with other people about this hard time.

Off to bed

[aga01]

We are not doing well. There is no routine at all. I'm trying to experiment with his activity and nap timing but non of it seems to work. Today he went for his first nap 3 hours since his morning wake-up time. He was really tired. But he only slept 30 min (usual). His second nap was 4.15 hours later. Slept 40 min and the rest 1.2 hours in my arms. Bed time 4.5 from his second nap. I'm still not doing any training as his last molar (one year molar) is coming out. On top of that he cut himself really bad so I'm really patient with him.

I will try to keep his activity time before his first nap at 3.75 or 4 hours but it seems too long. I know that usually you go from longer activity time to shorter as the day progresses but with us it's the other way around. Is this normal?

His night sleeping is OK (no night wakings) but it's only 10.5 hours. Sometimes we get 11 hours.

[aga01]

Today he woke-up at 5:40 am. He slept less than 10 hours. This is what I don't understand. I'm trying to do everything (accidental parenting) so he gets out of the OT cycle and when he does I extand his activity time and we get into OT again. It's been like this for over a month and I'm not getting anywhere.  Right now it's been only 3 hours since he woke-up and he is really tired. Do I put him down (to fight the OT) or do I extend his activity time but get him into more OT stage? Please help.

[sherry lynn]

Not all babies go from long A times to shorter A times throughout the day. Some have the same A time all day, and some like us, go from shorter to longer.

If he is tired at 3 hours, but him down. That's ok. However, I really really think 4 hours after a 30 min nap is WAY too much. Is he fighting you going down earlier?

Did you read the transition links that I posted above? I found those to be really helpful.

Teething can make them more OT so if he doesn't seem able to do more than 3 hours that's ok, but maybe when he's done teething try for 3.5 for the first thing in the day.

Has your LO always been an early riser? 

[aga01]

When I put him for his 1st nap after 3 hours A time he goes down without a problem (5-10min). He usually sleeps only 30 min. Than he goes down 4.15 hour of A time for the second nap. I notice he sleeps longer (around 2 hours but 1 hour in my arms). When I put him down after 3 hours of A time he sleeps around 1 hour in his crib (as usual) but than he never falls asleep in my arms (as he does after 4.15 A time). So I prefer 4.15 min of A time for now b/c he sleeps more.

 

[sherry lynn]

It sounds like you have found what works for you. That's great. It might be then that you will have these EW, night waking issues until you make it through the transition then.

The only other thing I can really think of that is going to effect the EW is that super early first nap. It has to get pushed out at some point, otherwise he will really have a hard time transitioning to one nap. He needs to be able to handle at least 5 hours A time before he transitions.

[aga01]

I decided to go cold turkey and switch to one nap right away. The harder I try the worse it gets. This night he slept only 9 hours (even though he had 14 hours of sleep yesterday) so when he woke-up this morning at 5:15 I kept him in his crib till 7 am. I didn't do pd as this gets him more upset (pd used to work when he was 11 months). I just stayed with him in the room and told him to go to sleep. He didn't fall asleep so I took him out at 7 am and gave him breakfast.

I tried putting him down 3.75 hours later but he was fighting for 40 min. I took him out gave him some snack and we played a bit. I took him to his crib again and started to do wi/wo. It took me 15 min and now he is sleeping at 10:45 am (5.30 hours after morning wake-up). Most likely he will wake up after 30-40 min. My plan is to keep him in the crib so he can learn to take longer naps. No more accidental parenting. For the last 7 weeks it's getting worse and worse.

[sherry lynn]

Hopefully you can get him back to sleep after that wake up, or even get a really short nap in the afternoon.

I really really have to caution you against jumping to one nap cold turkey. It does work for some, but it back fires for most.

If he does/did take a good nap today. Great. Make sure to still put him to bed early. He will be very tired.

There is one more option to try before going to one nap cold turkey.

I had to go this route, and I know another mom that it worked WONDERS for.
That is a 20 min catnap in the morning.

This is roughly how it could go for you.
I don't know if 6 or a 7 am wake up is more common for you. So I'll just go on the 6 am wake up

As soon as you can get him down in the morning for a nap. Put him down. This was most often 3.5 hours for us
so
wake 6:00
Nap 9:30-9:50 (some moms do this in the car. That doesn't work for us. So it was in his crib. I woke him very gently because he would be upset a lot)

Now, the next A time people seem to have the most luck with 2 hours A time. Some days my LO was just shot, so he would be needing to go down as early as 1.5 hours. Sometimes he would then take a great nap, sometimes a nap of about 1h10m,  1h15m.
As you do this routine for a while, he will extend to as much as 2.5 hours A time. But I would try for 2 hours first and see how that goes.

This is a great plan for breaking a really bad OT cycle when a little one just really does not want to take 2 naps in one day anymore.

Sometimes LO will do great on one nap for even a few weeks and then you find yourself in a really really bad OT cycle.

[aga01]

Thank you for the advice. He only slept 20 min in his crib and 1 hour in my arms. I tried putting him down for a catnap in the afternoon but it didn't work. The bed time is right now at 5:20 pm. He slept today for 10.2 in total (day+night).

He usually wakes-up anytime between 5-5:30 am. Doesn't matter if I put him down at 6 pm or 8 pm. So when I put him down at 6 pm (these are the days when he has only one nap) he sleeps 11 or 11.5 hours. If I put him down at 8 pm (when he has two naps: one nap in the morning 30 min and second nap at 2 pm 1.2-2 hours nap) he still wakes-up after 5 am with only 9 hours of night sleep.

So it looks that I tried the option you suggested (20-30 min catnap in the morning). Maybe I should try one nap at 11 am (doesn't matter what time he wakes-up) and very early bed time. I would try it for 1-2 weeks until things get better. Hopefully he will start having longer naps and no EW. What do you think?

He is all over the place and very OT for the last 7 weeks no matter what I do. You said that "cold turkey" can back fire. But he is OT all the time anyhow. So what else can happen?

I really appreciate all your help and advice. I feel that I'm going "nuts" sometimes.

[sherry lynn]

I hear you about the going nuts sometimes 
There were days when I put Lyle down for 20 min in the morning and he would refuse the PM nap    talk about wanting to pull my hair out. On those days I would try for an hour to get him down. Then get him up let him play a little and then throw him in the car and he still didn't take a second nap    What in the world!!! What child does that. Mine apparently.

It's so hard to go to one nap when they are waking so early. If you are going to do one nap I would stick to the 11 am like you planned. We just recently moved beyond 11am ourselves at 21 months (mostly because of EW) Also because he has always been on the low level of A time first thing in the day and then a longer A time at the end of the day.

You never know it could work. I've known a few moms that it did work for. Good luck. Remember to breathe

[anna*]

Aga, I think yours sounds like a plan. A long nap at 11am - do everything you can to extend it. If he wakes early from it and won't go back down, go for a drive or a long walk in the afternoon to try to get him to 'steal' a short catnap. A very early bedtime. Also remember to keep your A activities as low key as you can, while you're dealing with OT. Even if he won't sleep, a quiet cuddle with mummy, with a lovey and perhaps with the TV on (if it encourages him to sit still, not if it makes him want to run about!) can help too.

(((((hugs))))) hang in there, this WILL pass.

[aga01]

Thank you Anna.
This last night he slept more than 12 hours (5:20 pm - 5:30 am). Still he was very tired so he had a catnap at 9-9:30 am. He was refusing the second nap for a while but went down at 2:40 pm-4:20 pm (50 min in his crib and the rest in my arms). Bedtime 7:45 pm.

I just don't understand why he gets up at 5-5:30 am in both cases (when bed time is 5:30 pm or 7:30 pm).

So, when I start one nap only and he sleep 11-1 pm what is the early bed time? I'm afraid that when I will put him down to bed at 5:30 pm every night for few weeks (during the transition) he will keep waking up that early. How do I approach this problem?

Also, do I use pd to extend his nap or AP (rocking chair) for now and worry about it later on.

[anna*]

Well, if you can get him on a routine where he is doing
5.30am A
11 am S
1-2pm A
5.30pm S

Then from there you can start to move everything forwards by 15 mins every 3 days. So you move bedtime, nap times, milk times, meal times - everything. Then 3 days later you move it all again.

For now I would AP (on purpose ) to extend his nap because you really want to avoid OT.

The other thing to mention is that you could try W2S at around 4am - we had some success with that. Also, is he teething? When my LO is teething, he tends to wake up early because when he's in that light, morning sleep the pain will wake him.

[aga01]

OK I will stick with it and see how it goes. What if he is not moving forward 15 min after 3 days. Should I stick with it until he does and than move 15 min again? What if he is not moving forward at all?