Hopeless - 15 months baby EW, refusing naps, sleeps less than 10 hours at night

[aga01]

Hello,
I have 13 months old son.  He was never a good sleeper. He is a spirited baby. I started the 2-1 transition 2 days ago as my DS was refusing the afternoon nap. However he started waking at 5 pm and is only getting 9 hours of night sleep. I tried putting him down to bed earlier but he slept till 5:30 - 6 am (which was too early as well).

This is what happened over the last 3 days for 2-1 transition:
5:00 am wake-up crying (as always)
6:00 am bottle, breakfast
11:45 snack, bottle
12:00 nap - till 1:30 or 2 pm (but he wakes-up after 30-40 min. crying. I have to go to him pick him up and move him to our bed and he falls asleep again or rock him in my arms. I tried to leave him in his crib but he is crying a lot)
2 pm lunch
4 pm snack
6 pm dinner
7:30 pm bath, bottle
8 pm asleep

There is too much of activity time between his wake to nap time and nap to bedtime. He is getting really OT.

When he had two naps:
5:30 - 6 am wake-up
6:30 bottle breakfast
9 - 9:30 nap (only 30 min for a long time)
11:30 lunch
2:00 nap (usually 1 hour than I had to pick him up and rock him for a while and he fall asleep in my arms for another hour)
4 dinner
7:30 asleep in bed

He is not waking-up at night but his naps were always terrible. Over the last two weeks I have to stay in his room with him until he falls asleep. Otherwise he is screaming/crying really bad. He's been always waking-up crying if no one is in the room. I don't know if he is scared. We are thinking of moving him back to our room. I'm all confused and don't know what to do. Please help.


Posted by becky1969  
 
aga01: In your case, on your 2 nap days I think LO is OT! A 10 hour night is almost always an indicator of a bub that's OT at bedtime.  He's doing 4 hours of A time, but both naps are short so I'm not sure if A time is too long or too short.  The OT at bedtime may simply be because daytime sleep isn't long enough or too broken.  

What is your feeling about the nap timing? Is he showing sleepy signs at 9:00? Have you tried moving it later? With only a 30 minute nap in him, I wouldn't try 4.5 hours A time like you're doing before nap #2.  I'd definitely make nap time closer to 3.5 hours later.

To try and get a later waking in the AM, I'd probably do the following:

1) Move AM nap later.  Even if he's OT for nap #1, it's OK because we only need him to sleep for 30 minutes.  So let's try to push him until 10 and see how he does.  You may have to do that slowly in 15 minute increments over the next week or so.  

2)  Once nap is at 10 (and lasts until 10:30), I'd then only give him 3.5 hours between naps; this puts 2nd nap at 2:00 (just like it is now).  However, hopefully with better nap timing you'll get a solid 1.5 hour nap out of him.  

3) With a waking at 3:30, I'd aim for a 7 pm bedtime and see how that goes.  Worse case scenario he has a tough time falling asleep. Best case scenario you knock out the OT monster.

Hopefully this will get him to sleep closer to 11 hours at night.  Give that a try and I'll coach you along the way! However, it might be best if you post your own thread; we like to make sure that each thread has just one question. Put the link here and i'll follow up with you if necessary.

[LucySol]

i would say OT for sure.especially with the waking up during the naps,thats what my lo does when OT.i would say you need to go back to 2 naps and change the times.i would do:
5.00/6.00 wake
9.00-9.30 wake him here.
1.30-3.00/3.30  (instead of the 2pm usual nap)
7.00 bedtime

i think the EW are OT too.we get EW from OT.i would stick to a 7.00 bedtime untill you get over the OT.

[aga01]

Background: I slept trained him at 11 months for his naps (he only slept 30 min than I had to rock him in a chair). It took me 1 week of pd but it worked. It was like a miracle. He was napping well for 3 weeks. Than he started teething.  He is still teething right now.

Today he woke-up at 5 am (after 9 hours of night sleep). I went to his room and put my hand in his crib. He slept 30 min more.

1st nap - I tried putting him at 9:15 am but he was crying/fighting for 1.5 hours. I took him out of his room fed him, we played a bit and I put him down again around 12 pm. He was fighting again for 30 min but fall asleep. He woke-up after 30 min. I took him out of the crib were and he fall asleep in a bed for 10 min. (we have a small extra bed in his bedroom). I will try putting him at 6 pm today so he gets some rest.

I'm really frustrated as my DS is constantly tired and whining all the time. He just wants me to hold him all the time. I cannot do anything. I have to keep my hand in his crib all the time until he falls asleep. Before I just put him down, put the music on and left the room. He was falling asleep within 5 min. I don't know what happened?

[LucySol]

((((hugs)))) hunny.teething  is so hard,and it messes with sleep so much.
When you say he was fighting for 1.5 hrs what was happening?were you with him all the time? my DD is spirited also and being with her drives her wild and stimulates her far too much! have you tried WIWO?
He is definately OT.you needto get him caught up on sleep before you try and get a routine sorted.perhaps reduce his A time right down tomorrow and see if that helps? i would go for perhaps a 3.5A first thing and see how long a nap you get from that? then perhaps another 3/3.5 after that???

[aga01]

When I put him down for his nap I was with him in a room. Not only that...I had to have my hand in his crib in order for him to lay down (for the last few days). Otherwise he cries a lot. I tried leaving him for 1-2 min and come back. I did this few times but it only made him more upset. It used to be different. Before I just left the room and he went down to sleep in 5 min.

Should I train him using pd again. He is teething now so I'm not sure. He woke-up 3 times last night (first time in the last 2 months). Also, if he sleeps less than 10 hours  at night and only 40 min during the day time should I put him to bed at 5:30 pm.

I will try 3.5A tomorrow.

[LucySol]

mmm,thats a tricky one cos you cant if he is in pain.have you given him any pain meds 30 mins before naps? if pd worked for you before then at least you know it works for him! i would do whatever you have to even if it means AP to get him to sleep more than 40 mins and worry about the rest later!

[aga01]

It's getting really bad. I don't know what to do anymore and I just cannot take it anymore.
He wakes up anytime between 4:30 and 5 am. Sometimes when I go to his room and put my hand in his crib he will fall asleep for 30 min. Than I put him down for his 1st nap 3.5 hours after his wake time but he fights/cries for at least 30 min (sometimes up to 1 hr or more). Than he sleeps for max 30 min (wakes-up tired and crying). I take him out and put him down again 3.5-4 hours later for his second nap. He fights/cries again for 30 -1 hour and than sleeps for 30- 40 min. I put him down for night sleep at 6:30 or 7 pm but he is fighting again for up to 1 hour.

I found myself very impatient. I feel like crying all the time as I feel that I cannot change anything.

[LucySol]

(((hugs))) im sorry things are so bad for you.im sure you will keep getting the EW while he is so OT.i do think that a 4hr A is too much after just a 30 min nap you need to bring it down to 2.50/3.hr.
what would happen if you sat in the room with him while he fell asleep?could you do that for a while?and be back in for the 30 min mark and maybe be able to sssh him back to sleep as he woke.then gradually as he starts to settle easier you can move away from him.
i dont think you are going to get anywhere untill you have got him out of this OT loop.

im no expert on this,im just trying to advise you on what i did with my dd.i will get some help for you incase i am missing something.
hang in there!

[aga01]

Thank you for all the support. I sit with him in the room until he falls asleep. But I have to keep my hand in his crib all the time. If I take it after a while (as I cannot feel my hand anymore) he is freaking out. I know he's been teething for 2 weeks so I prefer not to train him right now. His molars are coming out. How long does it take for the upper molars to come out? Does anyone know?

I tried moving away from his crib but he cries a lot. So I think I should try WI/WO as he cries either way. Does pd (put down) method work for EW at all? Or what should I do to make him sleep longer when he wakes-up. I tried earlier bed time but it's not working.

[deckchariot]

{{{{{{hugs}}}}}  I'm sorry it's so hard for you right now.  Going through the 2 to 1 transition and teething on top of it is really, really difficult.  I think you're got so many things going on right now that it's hard to see straight, so maybe if we just focus on one thing at a time that will help.  Teething pain for molars can be pretty awful, and the amount of time it takes them to come in is different for every bub.  What we found worked best for us was to give either tylenol or ibuprofen 30 min before bedtime and then Hyland's teething tablets throughout the day.  What are you doing in terms of pain management for him?  The first thing I would focus on is getting him some pain relief as sleep training doesn't really work when they're in pain.

He is definitely OT, and that makes it harder for him to go to sleep on his own, so for now, don't worry about some accidental parenting to help him sleep - stay with him with your hand on the crib if that works for now.  You can do gradual withdrawal once he's over the OT hump - or wi/wo (which is like pd only you just tell him to lay down rather than laying him down) whichever you prefer.

Did you try Becky's advice from the first post - about trying to push the am nap til 10 and then doing the pm nap at 2?  You mention that you've tried early bedtime, but still get an EW - but I see that you did a 5:30 bedtime and got a 6 am wake.  I know 6 am is early, but that was 12.5 hrs of sleep for him.  Early bedtimes are great, but if they're too early, you may indeed still get an EW because they've already gotten a full night's sleep.  So if his usual bedtime is 7:30, even a 6:30 bedtime is "early", and if he sleeps 12 hrs, he'll still be up at 6:30, so keep that in mind when doing early bedtime.

Hang in there!!!

hth
michelle

[aga01]

Hello Michelle,
Thank you for your support and advice. I gave him pain medication few times before his nap time but nothing changed. He's been teething for 2-3 weeks already (4 molars at the same time) so I'm a bit afraid giving him the medicine for that long.

I tried getting out of the OT with the AP. But everytime when he is rested and I try to make him sleep longer in the morning and extend his afternoon nap (using pd and without AP) we are getting into OT cycle.

As for the Becky advice...yes I tried 10 am but he was refusing the afternoon nap at 2 pm. He than fall asleep at 3:30 pm tired and refused bed time. I don't know what should I do. These are my two scenario that I keep alteranting every day so he can catch up on his sleep:

Scenario 1)
-Wake-up at 5 am (previous bed time was at 6:30 pm)
-1st nap at 9 am sleeps 30-40 min
-2nd nap at 2 pm (40 min in the crib and 40 min in my arms rocking)  this gets us to 3:30 pm
-bed time around 7:30

Scenario 2)
-Wake up at 5 pm (total night sleep 9.5 hours) gets up tired
-1st nap at 9 - 10 am for (30 min) but he usually is fighting it b/c OT
-2nd nap at 2 pm (40 min in the crib and try 40 min rocking in my arms but usually he is not falling asleep b/c OT)
-bed time anytime 6 - 6:30 pm (early bed time to catch up with sleep)

Back to scenario 1)

Again scenario 2)....and so on..

So this is what happens every other day with each scenario. I don't know how to get out of this. I also tried putting him down consistently at 7:30 pm and 8 pm but he still was waking 5 am. Sorry for the long post.

[aga01]

We managed to get out of the OT by alternating the days as in my post above. I did pd for his naps (only for one day) and one morning. The next day in the morning he woke up at 5:15 am. I went to his room and put him down. I stayed in the room with him but away from the crib (in the small bed that we have in his room). He slept till 6:30 am. Next day morning he woke-up at 5 am. I went to his room put him down and stayed in his room. He slept till 7 am (never happened before ). Today he slept till 6: 30 am. (without waking from 7:30 pm previous evening)

His naps are 3.5 hours after activity. This works for us perfect. His 1st nap is 40 min. and 2nd nap is 1.2 hour. Bed time is around 7-7:30 pm.
I'm really happy that we are making some progress. He is still teething. I give some medicine but not too much. I still stay with him in his room but closer to the doorway. I will try moving away slowly when his molars are out completely.

Also we need to work on his second nap (I think it's a bit short and sometimes he wakes up after 40 min). What do you think?

[deckchariot]

I seriously thought I posted something yesterday, but it's not here....hmmmm....but YAY for you!!  It sounds like you're definitely making progress.  I think your plan on gradually withdrawing is a great one.  In terms of his second nap, the 40 min wake up sounds like he needs more A time between naps - if he's been doing 3.5, you may want to try 3.75 and see if that helps.  That may then push bedtime to be a wee bit later - that's part of the juggling with the 2 to 1 nap switch.  Hopefully, as you can get later wake up times, you can more quickly transition to 1 nap.

[aga01]

Just a quick question (based on the baby whisperer experience). How many hours of night sleep and day sleep should there be for almost 14 moths old baby? Is 1 hour afternoon nap OK or he should be sleeping longer?

[sherry lynn]

I might be way off here, but here's my thinking.

Yes. Your LO is in an OT cycle, but you are putting him down too early for the first nap.
My LO has always been on the low end of A time for the first nap. But even he was taking a later nap by 13 months, and we too struggle(d) with short nights and very wonky naps at that age.

Here's what I would do if I were in your place, for what it's worth

Do what Becky and Michelle both suggested. Make that first nap later. But, I would let him sleep as long as he wants/will. We went back and forth between a long am nap, short pm nap --and-- a short am nap and long pm nap for a long time here.
The short am nap is not working for you. (or you haven't tried it like suggest, I agree 4.5 hours is WAY too long. There were days after a 30 min nap that my LO wanted to go back to bed after 2 hours. 3 hours is the norm that works best for most people.

If you truly feel that your LO will fight that PM nap on even 30 min after a shorter A time like Michelle and Becky suggest then I would strongly, strongly recommend trying the long AM nap.  If he refuses the PM nap then give him a super early bedtime again.

If you are currently doing 3.5 hours A time, then maybe try 3.75. Add 15 min to what ever A time you are currently doing. Keep doing this until you find an A time that gives you at least a good solid 1.5 hour nap.

When we first switched to one nap 4.75-5 hours worked best.
I remember our first very successful nap day started at 10.45.

Most days at 22 months my LO still wants to go down at 11. I'm currently working on that.

I found that if I put him down at 12 he slept 1h10m and woke screaming and would not go back to sleep.
If I put him down at 11 he slept 3 hours. That's hard to beat. So it's just a matter of finding out what works best for your LO.

Really good advice I received when going through the transition was try putting him down at 3.5-4 what ever is your normal A time. If he fights you do not fight him for a long time. Such as 1.5 hours. After 30 min or so get him up. Give him an early lunch maybe a little low key A time and then put him back down again (probably for his only nap of the day) let him sleep as long as he wants, do an early bedtime. We did have quite a few of these days, and they were hard. But this is just a phase and you will see light at the end of the tunnel at some point. For a good number of spirited babies it seems to be about 15 months of age

I think for a day I would even try staying in the room, maybe napping with him to see if you can get him past that wake up period. If he's teething you can deal with the sleep training later.