Can't belive I am here again, need advice from MSPI experts

[Vicku]

Oh Katt, I'm so sorry to read this Poor Leorah!
I was thinking that she did have these NWs with tummy pain before you started the oats milk too...
Oh if we could only find what it is that is causing this... Will pm you and am thinking of you both

[Peek-a-boo]

I'd cut out the calcium supplements until she gets moving again. 

[skatty]

That is a great idea but she has to take a packed lunch to preschool and i will have to think what I can give her, it is her main meal, since dropping the nap she goes to bed at 5pm ( ) so isn't hungry at dinner and breakfast is hit or miss! She normally has rye bread or this wholegrain swedish bread with egg mayo/salami and cream cheese/fish fillet/ham, carrots/peppers/cucumbers, grapes/satsuma/mango/pineapple and some raisins/nuts/fruit leather, they also eat fruit twice a day and that is things like sliced apples, pears, kiwi, banana (she is off those at the mo' thankfully) I have found an excellent website with lots of parents with kids with the same problem and there are loads of tips, I have bought flax seed oil as that seems to be the best natural laxative for kids and it is also full of omega 3s. I am now not convinced that when she spends hours pushing a poo out that she is in fact trying to keep it in  She sweats and gets goose pimples and arches her back a lot. From reading on this site I gather that young kids can really hold their poo even when on laxatives and eating plenty of fibre so perhaps it is only psychological  I now realise I have to try and avoid her eating too much insoluble fibre as it could make matters worst 

[skatty]

Sorry I didn't see Vick's and Bethany's replies, yes I think cutting out the calcium supplements for a few days wont hurt 

[LisbonMom]

I know what I am about to suggest is medication, and I am not the biggest fan of that, but would you consider a glycerin suppository? They melt with body temperature and are quite gentle on the child's body. I'm thinking form my own experience with dd2 that as the time passes without a poo, it gets drier and drier and it just gets harder and harder to get it out of there The glycerin provides a smoother lubrification that just helps things get going AND makes it easier for that really hard and dry poo to get out.

Like I said before, dd2 developed a bit of a negative association with going poo because it hurt her so much and it just gets you on a vicious cycle. We used a glycerin-based laxative a bit frequently in the beggining, she hated to out it on but eventually came to understand that it did help, it was just trading a temporary discomfort for long-term relief. With time we were able to spread out it's use and now it's been quite a while since we've used it.

HTH - I know it just sucks!

[Mashi]

Along the same lines as a supposiory, have you tried lactulose? I don't know if it would be known by a brand name in Denmark or if you would need a prescription for it? I know that in North America it doesn't seem to be as widely known/used as in England, but in England it's the first thing doctors give when constipation becomes a problem. It is just a sugar that is absorbed by the bowel and makes stool softer to help constipation ease up. It is non habit forming and you can be on it for years with no adverse affects.   Just throwing another option out. x

[MLK]

How did it go Kat? Did she manage to go?

There's also mineral oil/paraffin oil, it's lubricating so makes everything slippery so she can't hold it in, also helps ease the pain on the way out. It's not digested like flaxseed oil is, so it's oily all the way through!  here you can get it over the counter at the chemist.

You give it in the morning, mixed in with the prune juice would help. I wouldn't give her the laxative powder or probiotics at the same time though or it all might be too much!

Do you think you might need some help with her fear of pooing? It can be a vicious cycle, hard poo=fear=holding it in=more hard painful poo. Tough on you all! Sometimes someone who isn't directly involved with the situation can really help.

[skatty]

Thank you all for your ongoing support, I really appreciate it  I spent a lot of last night lying awake and thinking this all over and I am now pretty certain she is holding her poo rather than trying to get them out  Before she had that hard poo with blood in the nappy she would sometimes ask for a nappy when she needed to go but since then we always have to offer if it looks like she needs to go and then she does this writhing around thing that looks like she could be trying to push it out but now I think about it I think DH is right and she is trying to hold it in  It has been a long time since she had a hard poo, it is quite firm now but it is more a lump of playdo looking than a sausage shape or pellets, sorry I know TMI!!

We have used lactulose before when she was a baby but when I told my doc we had used it now she is older she said that is not the best remedy for what she has now  I think I'd prefer her using lactulose because from what I have read these powders can be habit forming. I am not sure about the suppository, she is really funny about her private parts, has always since 12 months held her poo if we had company and would scream and cry if her nappy was changed in front of anyone, doesn't even like it when we have to clean her after she's pooped so I am sure sticking something up her bum would not go down well! The thing is because she is eating so much fibre and taking the powder her poo isn't hard which makes me think she is just holding it. I cannot believe another day has passed without a poo 

DH has just gone to pick her up from preschool, he warned the teachers she may need to poo but didn't tell them to offer her a nappy  Last time she really needed a poo she just told them she had stomach ache and layed on a sofa all afternoon. If she hasn't gone today I am giving her a tummy massage before bed plus some more flax oil in her drink. If all the powder ios doing is softening her stool and that can be done with flax oil or lactulose I want to stop the powder as it always seems to give her cramps. I am sorry that maybe this isn't a food issue after all though I do actually think the rice milk wasn't helping matters.

Lan I do think maybe we need to see a specialist because there is some definite psychological thing going on here, fear and shame in my opinion  Thank you again everyone 

[skatty]

Oh my goodness, just had to come back on and let you all know Leorah pooed in preschool on the toilet! Apparantly she wasn't anxious, did it all herself and then soaked herself while washing her hands so still came home in different clothes! She only did a small poo so I hope she will manage to go again later 

[LisbonMom]

Great news! What are her feelings towards it? I know Isabel would tell daddy as soon as he got home that she had done a poo, because we just cheered her on so much!

[skatty]

She came home and I made a fuss of her which she enjoyed and was proud but she then drank two cups of watered down prune juice and a cup of rice milk and refused to pee before bed I asked her why and she said she was scared and that was it so I asked if she was scared she will poo and she said yes, I also asked why she will go at PS and not at home but she ran off crying to her grandad who is visiting  This is pretty annoying as I will now have to change her nappy because it will be full of pee once she falls asleep and she's already OT from all the broken sleep she has had this week with tummy ache, hopefully she will poo too as there must be lots more needing to come out 

[LisbonMom]

I think you really need to work on her being comfortable in the toilet, it seems like there's a much bigger issue there underneath it all. Sorry if this is too personal a question, is Leorah accustomed to seeing you go pee? I think one of the things that worked really well with dd2 was having her see me and dd1 go pee, so she wanted to imitate us - actually, she totally refused the potty and only wanted to use the toilet seat adapter.

[Peek-a-boo]

We dealt with the poo-holding issue for about 5 months.  I think for us it was something like 20% the firm poop and 80% a psychological issue.  The two exacerbate each other and are tough to separate.  If there is a food contributing to her firm poop, it will definitely help to eliminate it and keep things soft and moving. 

For us, anytime we even gently nudged DS to poop on the potty chair he ended up holding it for days.  If we never mentioned it, he'd fall into a cycle of going every other day.  For about an hour before he'd go I could tell he really needed to go.  He'd be really fidgety and act uncomfortable and constantly change positions and eventually the urge would overwhelm him, he'd race into my bed room, shut the door, lie down in front of it and poop.   For him part of his issue was that he pooped lying on his stomach and switching to sitting up was really hard. 

I was so concerned about the negative effects of his holding it in and the cycle getting worse and truly, even the gentlest nudges to poop in the potty chair seemed to increase his stress and cause him to hold it longer--so we just let it be.  This went on for 5 months or so.  The only thing we did do was that after he pooped I took him to the bathroom to clean him up and put the poop in the potty chair and then into the toilet to try to reinforce that's were it goes. 

The break through finally happened when he got sick and his BMs got a bit loose anyhow and then we stopped the calcium fortified OJ and switched to apple juice.  Things were so soft I think they just slipped out while he was going potty and it got him over the hump. 

{{{Hugs}}}  I know it's such a frustrating and helpless feeling. 

[skatty]

Well I don't know what is working, the probiotic, stopping the rice milk or the flax oil but Leorah had a massive poo in her sleep last night and didn't wake with tummy ache  But I have BIG news! This afternoon she went to the loo and as usual made me wait outside while she shut the door (I do peak through the keyhole to make sure she goes  ) and suddenly she shouted "Mumma, look what I did!" and there in the bowl was a poo  Small but pushed out intentionally as I heard the grunt  She was very proud but I kept the praise low key, we did celebrate with a slice of cake and she was proud when we told daddy but was definitely a bit embarrassed when we told her granddad so I definitely think she likes such matters to be kept private!! I am really hoping we are on the ladder to success but we have been hopeful before and it has regressed but hopefully if we get her regular and without pain things will be ok. For now I think we are stopping the powder and going with the probiotic and flax oil, no more rice milk, I have read so much about it being constipating now that I can't believe I never heard it before  I can't thank you all enough for your help and support, I have been clicking your karma buttons and I would do it 100x at once if I could! I may be back but I hope not  Thank you again 

[skatty]

Sorry for some reason LisbonMom and Peek a Boo's replies weren't showing when I logged on 

LisbonMom, I have always gone to the toilet with Leorah and once she decided to wear knickers and give up her day nappy she had no problem peeing on their, she only holds her pee when she needs to poo as she now realises it will just come out 

Peek-a-boo, I do think that the fortified rice milk had something to do with it! Leorah has also been drinking watered down prune juice the last few days but her stools are still not runny, the one in the toilet tonight looked very normal  but I am guessing they are slipping out easily  I agree the more fuss we make the more she wants to hold it in